why does the 308 always trump the 30-06

Nicksoore

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been searching last cupple days and don't see why the 308 is so favored in long range over the 06
what i have found is
1. short action {big deal all i shoot is long so im used to it}
2. less recoil [reduce loads , is'n that what brakes are for or grow balls]

You use the same bullets, powder so would not a little more case volume help out to some longer ranges volocidy [sp] and same bc of bullet = flatter shooting?
I rest and expect some flaming its all good as long as i get the awnser im looking for
 

Hunt4life

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Re: why does the 308 always trump the 30-06

Your answer is, the .308 is more efficient. Through most of the mid weight bullets there is little difference in performance. That and its very similar twin, the 7.62 Nato is what many in the sport trained on and know its ballistics inside and out.

As it pertains to recoil, it is more about staying on target and spotting your own vapor trail and hits and misses.

That said, if you like the 30-06, by all means... But the .300 win mag is better as a true long range round.
 

turbo54

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Re: why does the 308 always trump the 30-06

David Tubb and one of his cronies wrote an article that pulled statistical data from national matches since 1970-something. It clearly shows 308s score higher than 30-06s. Why? Voodoo I guess.

Ballistically, the 30-06 is clearly superior. Accuracy wise, the data shows 308 has the edge.
 

aloreman

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Re: why does the 308 always trump the 30-06

id also go with the 300 win mag. does everything the 308 an 06 can and a whole lot more
 

Anti-Materiel

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Re: why does the 308 always trump the 30-06

+1

The .30-06 bridges the gap between the .308 & the .300WM. I think the .30-06 is one of the best cartridges ever made.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Mike</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Military uses 308 and all the sheep want to use whatever the military uses. 30-06 is a better round in every aspect </div></div>
 

Mike

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Re: why does the 308 always trump the 30-06

the 300WM is not even in the question. Of course it can do more IT'S A MAGNUM.

Stick to the TWO calibers the OP is talking about, not go off on a tangent about what a MAGNUM can do that a STANDARD cannot.
 

aloreman

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Re: why does the 308 always trump the 30-06

more higher scores where shot with the 308 than the 06 because more shooters shot the 308 over the 06. plus the 308 rounds were fired from M1As with 2 stage match triggers and hooded apature sights ond the 06 rounds were fired thru m1 garand and 1903a3 rifles
 

asbestosglove

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Re: why does the 308 always trump the 30-06

The military going to the 7.62/.308 around 1956 and the M14 Match rifle that followed sorta killed the '06. High-Power was all about the M14 and M1A from about 1960-1995 when the AR15 killed those off in competition. Palma and LR NRA matches, plus F-Class recently, is mostly about the .308. International LR shooting is mostly .308. The 7.62 has been the military's main precision rifle round from VN to the present. Point is, the .308 is the most widely studied, tweaked, and fired LR round extant.

Nothing wrong with the .30-06. Best cartridge out there. It has just been replaced in wide use by the .308.

AG in NC
 

aloreman

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Re: why does the 308 always trump the 30-06

more higher scores where shot with the 308 than the 06 because more shooters shot the 308 over the 06. plus the 308 rounds were fired from M1As with 2 stage match triggers and hooded apature sights ond the 06 rounds were fired thru m1 garand and 1903a3 rifles
 

Mike

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Re: why does the 308 always trump the 30-06

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: StanwoodSpartan</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The potato chip I just ate had a random hair on it...</div></div>

Short, black and curly?
 

Nicksoore

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Re: why does the 308 always trump the 30-06

wow i was expecting a world of crap
but thanks i've been reloading 06 for years n am looking in to long rang shooting and could not see why i could not use what i know and already have.

THANKS AGAIN now time to play
 

ArcticLight

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Re: why does the 308 always trump the 30-06

Carlos Hathcock won the Wimbledon cup and it was not with a .308!

Now I'm not sure if it was a 30-06 or a 300...

But there's videos of people hitting the V all day (and night) with a Springfield 1903.

30-06 can add a few hundred yards to a .308 and in my humble opinion is a FINE cartridge, just harder to get "tacticool" stuff for...but the tacticool stuff is out there.

I've considered doing the 30-06 but since I have an 03.


Now to be fair to .308 at 1000 yards the .308 would probably do just as well as a 30-06 and be easier on your shoulder.

Except in High Wind when the 30-06 starts shooting 220 and 240 gr bullets...
 

200 20x

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Re: why does the 308 always trump the 30-06

The 30-06 has shot down more aircraft than the 308 (in WW2). Last weekend I shot a 80 year old 30-06 round (yes it went bang), 308 can't do that. So the 308 doesn't always trump the 30-06.
grin.gif
If there was a 1200 yard competition I'd bet the 30-06 would out perform the 308.
cool.gif
 

fdkay

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    Re: why does the 308 always trump the 30-06

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: aloreman</div><div class="ubbcode-body">more higher scores where shot with the 308 than the 06 because more shooters shot the 308 over the 06. plus the 308 rounds were fired from M1As with 2 stage match triggers and hooded apature sights ond the 06 rounds were fired thru m1 garand and 1903a3 rifles </div></div>

    Source for this information?

    You probably have a vacancy in your large intenstine because you just pulled that out of your ass.

    Since most competition shooters want to win, if the '06 was superior, then that is what they would use.

    Not saying this is a definitive answer, but the author was a competitive hi-power shooter.
    http://www.snipercountry.com/articles/accuracyfacts.asp

    ETA:

    A comparison in basically equal rifles indicate that accuracy is not that much different.

    http://bulletin.accurateshooter.com/2011/04/308-win-vs-30-06-match-results-may-surprise-you/
     

    Killer Spade 13

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    Re: why does the 308 always trump the 30-06

    I shoot the .308, but my heart lies with the 30-06. If you've ever held an 03-A3 in your hands and hit a paint can at 200 yards you'll know what I mean.

    That aside, the '06 does have better down range ballistics. Additionally, you can get some pretty hefty rounds for it.

    The '06 went away for the same reason that this years Callaway golf clubs will not be good any longer when next year's model comes out.

    If it's new, it's got to be better.

    Shooting is a dynamic hobby/sport and is tied to the military so very closely.

    Geeez, even in scuba diving I hear young studly-muffins asking, "What kind of fins do the SEALS use?"

    It is my considered opinion that ONE MAN, using ONE CALIBER, in ONE RIFLE, and SHOOTING IT EXCLUSIVELY will be a much more proficient marksman that he who is forever chasing the holy grail of BC, MV, POI, POA, ad nauseum.

    But I am a mere novice.
     

    asbestosglove

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    Re: why does the 308 always trump the 30-06

    I just fired a .45-70 from 1873. The .30-06 can't do that, so WTF does this comparison mean?
     

    Chance

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    Re: why does the 308 always trump the 30-06

    This is the way I look at it... I want to say first that the 06'way is a grand old cartridge and I like it alot. If the rifle is a top loader, than have at it. In that configuration, the 308 has an advantage over the 06' in capacity. When you speak of the new breed of sniper rifles, if you don't run a mag fed rifle your behind the 8 ball. The 06' requires the use of the larger mags, which take up more room. The mags are the same size as the 300 win mag, so why not just run that? In my experience, I have always had an easier time making my 308's shoot than my 06's.
     

    Nicksoore

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    Re: why does the 308 always trump the 30-06

    So its just that the 308 became more pouplar on the range and the 06 was favored in deer camp

    well i guess ill start making my rem. 721 Taticool
     

    Mike

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    Re: why does the 308 always trump the 30-06

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Trovan</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Read this. A little more informative than sheep and potato chips.

    http://riflemansjournal.blogspot.com/2011/04/cartridges-sibling-rivalry-308-vs-30-06.html

    </div></div>

    We can sum up this article in one sentence:

    " Many modern-day competitors look down on the .30-06 as a long range cartridge, but I'll definitely say that if you want a good shooting cartridge with excellent barrel life and a huge choice of components, you can't do much better than the .30-06 for all around use."
     

    aloreman

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    Re: why does the 308 always trump the 30-06

    key words in that article were "in its best rifles" a 308 in a custom rig is equally as accurate as a 3006 in a comparible rig
     

    aloreman

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    Re: why does the 308 always trump the 30-06

    tubbs did his research when highpower was shot with a garand or an m1a it is easier to shoot the m1a than it is to shoot the garand. its not that the round is more accurate its that the rifle its fired from is able to be shot more accuratly
     

    Anti-Materiel

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    Re: why does the 308 always trump the 30-06

    Hathcock won the cup with a .300WM, but he hunted in Nam mostly with a .30-06.

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ArcticLight</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Carlos Hathcock won the Wimbledon cup and it was not with a .308!

    Now I'm not sure if it was a 30-06 or a 300...

    But there's videos of people hitting the V all day (and night) with a Springfield 1903.

    30-06 can add a few hundred yards to a .308 and in my humble opinion is a FINE cartridge, just harder to get "tacticool" stuff for...but the tacticool stuff is out there.

    I've considered doing the 30-06 but since I have an 03.


    Now to be fair to .308 at 1000 yards the .308 would probably do just as well as a 30-06 and be easier on your shoulder.

    Except in High Wind when the 30-06 starts shooting 220 and 240 gr bullets... </div></div>
     

    fdkay

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    Re: why does the 308 always trump the 30-06

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: aloreman</div><div class="ubbcode-body">tubbs did his research when highpower was shot with a garand or an m1a it is easier to shoot the m1a than it is to shoot the garand. its not that the round is more accurate its that the rifle its fired from is able to be shot more accuratly </div></div>

    I have shot both.
    Not sure why you figure the M1A is "easier" to shoot than the Garand.
    That does not explain why garands that were chambered for .308 shot so much better than the one in '06.

    Both have very similar ergo's. The weight is very similar, the sights are similar, the trigger is similar.
    All the similarities must be what makes them so different.

    The M-14/M1A is nothing but a Garand with a detchable box mag and a select fire capability on the M14.
     

    MAGUA

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    Re: why does the 308 always trump the 30-06

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: aloreman</div><div class="ubbcode-body">more higher scores where shot with the 308 than the 06 because more shooters shot the 308 over the 06. plus the 308 rounds were fired from M1As with 2 stage match triggers and hooded apature sights ond the 06 rounds were fired thru m1 garand and 1903a3 rifles </div></div>

    So M1 Garands can't have 2 stage match triggers and hooded rear "aperture" sights
    crazy.gif
     

    Roy Thorne

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    Re: why does the 308 always trump the 30-06

    In my opinion, the .308 are just a bit more versatile with handloads and have a little less recoil, but the 30-06 shoots more flatter and are great suprressed. The basic answer, i think is, the are more 308 out there, so its more popular and so more people use it.
     

    Joe40x

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    Re: why does the 308 always trump the 30-06

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 200 20x</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The 30-06 has shot down more aircraft than the 308 (in WW2). Last weekend I shot a 80 year old 30-06 round (yes it went bang), 308 can't do that. So the 308 doesn't always trump the 30-06.
    grin.gif
    If there was a 1200 yard competition I'd bet the 30-06 would out perform the 308.
    cool.gif
    </div></div>
    And the 308 was invented when? I guess that's why there is no 80 year old ammo lying around!
    Hint #1... A closed mouth gathers no feet!
    Hint #2...Move out of your mom's basement!
     

    j.c.

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    Re: why does the 308 always trump the 30-06

    With mid-weight bullets the performance is similar. So it made sense for the military to switch to the .308 for its battle rifles because the shorter cartridge meant detachable magazines and a little less weight.

    I've never really understood why they used the same cartridge for precision rifles. Some sort of bias high in command towards "compatability" that really should not have applied to snipers (did they ever actually use the NATO ball cartridges anyway?) .30-06 having more capacity really comes into its own in the heavier bullets which all things being equal are better for many long-range shooting applications.

    I do not buy at all that one is more accurate than the other. Tubbs is not an idiot and I a am sure he did some statistical analysis more sophisticated than "which one won more" to account for differences in population. Differences in rifle features would be harder to account for. People who were still shooting Service Rifle with Garands are perhaps more interested in shooting an M1 Garand than in winning and *may* be less likely to have NM upgrades, especially considering some (like barrel) would be more expensive than just buying a loaded M1A.
     

    Trevor

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    Re: why does the 308 always trump the 30-06

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ArcticLight</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Carlos Hathcock won the Wimbledon cup and it was not with a .308!

    Now I'm not sure if it was a 30-06 or a 300...

    But there's videos of people hitting the V all day (and night) with a Springfield 1903.

    30-06 can add a few hundred yards to a .308 and in my humble opinion is a FINE cartridge, just harder to get "tacticool" stuff for...but the tacticool stuff is out there.

    I've considered doing the 30-06 but since I have an 03.


    Now to be fair to .308 at 1000 yards the .308 would probably do just as well as a 30-06 and be easier on your shoulder.

    Except in High Wind when the 30-06 starts shooting 220 and 240 gr bullets... </div></div>

    It was a 300 win mag necked down to 7mm he was shooting the 160gn pills of that eras.
     

    ArmaHeavy

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    Re: why does the 308 always trump the 30-06

    <object width="425" height="350"> <param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/34RqMoyMZmI&feature=feedrec"></param> <param name="wmode" value="transparent"></param> <embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/34RqMoyMZmI&feature=feedrec" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" wmode="transparent" width="425" height="350"> </embed></object>
     

    coug

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    Re: why does the 308 always trump the 30-06

    The reason that everyone shoots a .308 is that its cheaper, when you shoot 200 to 500 rounds every week or two the cost of powder and brass add up. I'm not a .308 shooter the only one I own is an old savage lever gun that belonged to my grandfather. I shoot a .223 instead of a 22-250 because brass is cheep and so is powder when compared to the 22-250. my point is that it takes less powder to push the same bullet down range so you get to shoot more for a whole lot less over time. I don't like a .308 at all so my answer is a 6.5x47 it uses less powder and out performs .308 hands down. But I think that this has to be the reason why it has stayed around so long. I think you will see it start to die now that the Marines are looking to the 6.5x47 to replace the .308 and the army is looking to the 300 WM in the new M-2010 Sniper rifle. In a few years all the Military guys will be shooting those rounds and in a few years after that there will be surplus from military and those will be the new best rounds for everything and the good old .308 will take a sat in the back of the pack. As for the 30-06 there will always be a few guys that shoot them and it is a good round but there are just so many better choices out there why would you cut yourself short with either of them?
     

    rpk762

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    Re: why does the 308 always trump the 30-06

    I wonder if the data Tubb got was skewed? I am sure the bullets got better as the 308 came more and more prevalent.

    If you are going to shoot paper and want an edge then the 30-06 is the way to go because you can shoot heavier bullets.

    If you want that tactical look and compatibility of ammo with many world armys then 308 is the only way to go.
     

    tylerw02

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    Re: why does the 308 always trump the 30-06

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: coug</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The reason that everyone shoots a .308 is that its cheaper, when you shoot 200 to 500 rounds every week or two the cost of powder and brass add up. I'm not a .308 shooter the only one I own is an old savage lever gun that belonged to my grandfather. I shoot a .223 instead of a 22-250 because brass is cheep and so is powder when compared to the 22-250. my point is that it takes less powder to push the same bullet down range so you get to shoot more for a whole lot less over time. I don't like a .308 at all so my answer is a 6.5x47 it uses less powder and out performs .308 hands down. But I think that this has to be the reason why it has stayed around so long. I think you will see it start to die now that the Marines are looking to the 6.5x47 to replace the .308 and the army is looking to the 300 WM in the new M-2010 Sniper rifle. In a few years all the Military guys will be shooting those rounds and in a few years after that there will be surplus from military and those will be the new best rounds for everything and the good old .308 will take a sat in the back of the pack. As for the 30-06 there will always be a few guys that shoot them and it is a good round but there are just so many better choices out there why would you cut yourself short with either of them? </div></div>

    Marines switching to 6.5x47 Lapua? Source?
     

    tylerw02

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    Re: why does the 308 always trump the 30-06

    That does not suggest the Marines are switching.

    It says "Tactical Rifles" updated the M40 with a custom rifle. Not that the USMC adopted it.
     

    tylerw02

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    Re: why does the 308 always trump the 30-06

    I did several web searches and can find absolutely NOTHING about the USMC actually making a switch to a 6.5x47 Lapua. The only things that mention it are references to that bogus, crap show you linked to (which did not say the USMC was switching).
     

    coug

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    Re: why does the 308 always trump the 30-06

    I ain't trying to piss in your cheerios. That was only a clip from the program if you seen the whole thing they have marines on there talking about it. I am not the only one who has heard this there have been a lot of references of it here on the hide.
     

    coug

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    Re: why does the 308 always trump the 30-06

    I didn't say that they have adopted it. I said they are looking at adopting it.
     

    tylerw02

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    Re: why does the 308 always trump the 30-06

    You're not pissing in my Cheerios. Fact is all that has been posted (even here on the Hide) has been hearsay. I saw that original episode, but didn't look as though the USMC was actually looking at it at all.


    ETA: I wish they would. The 6.5x47 eats the .308s lunch, offers good barrel life, great brass, great accuracy, etc. It would be nice for sure! Our boys deserve the best. I don't see it happening, though. I don't think there is even a domestic ammo-maker for 6.5x47L and I doubt they are going to contract with Lapua for it. It would be a logistical nightmare.
     

    SVG308

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    Re: why does the 308 always trump the 30-06

    Ya that would be a huge step up ballistically. I don't see our military making any moves now though - the budget will be constrained as it is.
     

    One-Eyed Jack

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    Re: why does the 308 always trump the 30-06

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Killer Spade 13</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The '06 went away for the same reason that this years Callaway golf clubs will not be good any longer when next year's model comes out.

    If it's new, it's got to be better.

    Shooting is a dynamic hobby/sport and is tied to the military so very closely.

    </div></div>
    Yes, the military popularized the 7.62 NATO round over the 30-06 -- Why? My guess includes (1) logistics: the 7.62 round is smaller and lighter, so you can put more in the same ammo box or more boxes in the same truck or aircraft; (2) NATO agreed on the shorter round as the 7.62mm standard and some compromises may have been involved in making the choice; and (3) the 7.62 round did what NATO needed as far as accuracy and terminal ballistics (despite it's lesser ability to shoot down aircraft from the ground).
     

    JGorski

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    Re: why does the 308 always trump the 30-06

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Nicksoore</div><div class="ubbcode-body">been searching last cupple days and don't see why the 308 is so favored in long range over the 06
    what i have found is
    1. short action {big deal all i shoot is long so im used to it}
    2. less recoil [reduce loads , is'n that what brakes are for or grow balls]

    You use the same bullets, powder so would not a little more case volume help out to some longer ranges volocidy [sp] and same bc of bullet = flatter shooting?
    I rest and expect some flaming its all good as long as i get the answer im looking for
    </div></div>
    With the powders we have available today the 308 pretty much makes the 06 obsolete, you can push a 180 grain bullet over, well over 2700fps with less powder than an 06, same thing with pretty much any other bullet for the two rounds, and youll get less recoil to boot. I do love the way my 06 shoots the 180 Hornadys though, very accurate.
     

    JGorski

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    Re: why does the 308 always trump the 30-06

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Mike</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Military uses 308 and all the sheep want to use whatever the military uses. 30-06 is a better round in every aspect </div></div>
    And what aspect would that be, examples please.
     

    VKC

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    Re: why does the 308 always trump the 30-06

    The 308win has less recoil than a 30-06. The shorter case allows using a short action, which has weight and cycling/chambering benefits. The steeper shoulder is a little more powder efficient. 308win also can feed more reliably from a magazine.

    The thread in rifles are shorter barrels than before for more maneuverability. This has been made possible with less lost of velocity with better powders.

    All the above favors the 308win over the 30-06. However, in a longer barrel with more power 30-06 still wins in velocity.
     

    bigwheeler

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    montana
    Re: why does the 308 always trump the 30-06

    Back in the 80's I saw 168 grain match bullets pushed to 3000 in an 06. I don't think even today you can get a 308 anywhere near those velocities. But my 06 is
    the most punishing gun I own for recoil. The stw mountain rifle is 2 lbs lighter
    20 grains more powder and still easier on my shoulder for some reason. Stock
    design on the FN 06 or maybe just an old recoil pad on the gun.
    The 308 is a gas gun so it's a bit of a puppy dog for recoil.