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Why Doesn't Remington just build this rifle......?

D

Derek Myers

Sergeant
Full Member
Minuteman
Dec 23, 2005
168
1
Pacific Northwest
Remington actions cover about 80% of all tactical bolt guns....remmy clones cover even more. Alot of people....myself being one beleive that a Rem 700 with the R5 Stainless barrel in 308 is a great starting point. Alot of people myself included don't fit well with the HS Precision stocks Rem puts with their R5's and PSS rifles.

Why doesn't Remington take the R5 off of the "uncataloged" mystery list and ditch the HS Precision stocks that seem to be replaced by 90% of shooters or else they have a cheek peice added by screws or duct tape or other material and just make a RIFLE.

Remington already has a working partnership with Bell and Carlson so why doesn't Remington take the R5 or even the PSS and drop it into the Bell and Carlson adjustable Tactical stock with the vertical grip.

We all know of places where you can get the PSS for $800 or so and the R5 for another hundred or so. Wouldn't Remington have a top selling unit if the they matched up their action with a good heavy barrel and dropped it in a scope friendly stock?

Couldn't they sell the heck out of that setup for $1095 to the consumer? They could take an existing barrel length as a test run or make a mid length barrel for this setup 22-24 inches. They could just offer it in 308 and you could choose your stock color........if the buyer didn't like the B/C stock he would have a better take off to sell than the bare bones H/S Precision or even the B/C butthook stock that comes on the XCR?

Oh by the way my last option for that setup would be a tactical bolt knob!!! It might cost Remington $20 to put on another bolt knob but they would get $100 for their $20....who gets all jacked up to pick up their new shooter and then has to ship the bolt off for a couple weeks to get a knob that works.

If that worked maybe Remington could produce the above mentioned rifle with 10 round detachable box mags and get that into customer hands for $1450.

Thats the end of "If I ran Remington for a day"

Derek
 
Re: Why Doesn't Remington just build this rifle......?

Derek,

I agree with you on that. You should type up a letter and send it the engineers of Remington.
 
Re: Why Doesn't Remington just build this rifle......?

That is exactly the conclusion I've come to over the last few days. Well said!
Not only do I agree you should write a letter about it, I think everyone on SH should write the same letter(except for maybe the people who have already built that particular gun)
That seems to be an unstoppable combination, and I would buy one in a heartbeat. Especially at that price.
 
Re: Why Doesn't Remington just build this rifle...

I didnt have my 700P for a month before it was at GAP.

EDIT : Atleast the bolt was.
 
Re: Why Doesn't Remington just build this rifle...

I hate that Bell & Carlson stock. Worst hand position/grip on a rifle I have ever shot..........
 
Re: Why Doesn't Remington just build this rifle...

I guess criver wont be writing that letter to Remington.
 
Re: Why Doesn't Remington just build this rifle...

Yep, Savage already makes one with a vertical HS and McMillian, FN makes a fine rifle with a McMillian.

I think Remington should also make one with a McMillian, tactical bolt knob, M5 mag system, and one AI 5 round mag, SS 1-10" 24" barrel, factory 20 MOA rail and sell it for $1500-$1700. I think that they'd dominate the market for that price range.

We should really send in a letter!!
 
Re: Why Doesn't Remington just build this rifle...

While your writing, you might mention making the 5r 223 with a 1-8 twist barrel.
 
Re: Why Doesn't Remington just build this rifle...

I have not found the 8 to be lacking for anything I shoot. However, either one would be more desirable than the current offerings.
 
Re: Why Doesn't Remington just build this rifle...

If they built that rifle what would we have to spend money on and talk about on the hide? We would all be bored with no project to work on.
 
Re: Why Doesn't Remington just build this rifle...

Then, what would the custom builders do? How many of us buy a car we like and radically modify it?
 
Re: Why Doesn't Remington just build this rifle...

Derek, when you write the letter, please mention at least one person would buy a couple of 5R's in an AICS stock chambered in 260 Rem or fast twist 243 and have the barrel threaded 5/8-24. Would have mentioned a Mc Millan but the the AICS is assembly line friendly errrrrrrrr.
grin.gif
 
Re: Why Doesn't Remington just build this rifle...

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: baschu</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Well they tried but still failed with the barrel.

http://www.remington.com/products/firearms/centerfire/model-700/model-700-target-tactical.aspx

Besides I have to agree with stacyp...The Build is half the fun and what makes each rifle a bit more personal. </div></div>

Yea, MSRP is also almost $2,000, for that price it shold at least have a ROUND barrel, and a McMillian A5, McMillian A5 adjustable, or an AICS 1.5 stock.

All that is (in the link) is a '700 SA with a $500 stock and a f'in weird triangle barrel, which probally cost Remington $5-600 to make and ship!!

JMHO,
P.B.Walsh
 
Re: Why Doesn't Remington just build this rifle...

5R, fully adjustable stock, beefed up bottom metal and a 40x trigger?

WTF would they want to sell that at a reasonable price point when they can stamp M24 on the side and charge an arm and a leg for it.
 
Re: Why Doesn't Remington just build this rifle...

How about a SH poll: have all the members colaborate to design the "perfect 700" and then bombard Remington with letters and e-mails until they produce it! I'm sure they'd sell enough to make it worth their while. I can see it in the catalog now:
"Remington 700 5R-SH" By the People, for the People!
Democracy at work!
 
Re: Why Doesn't Remington just build this rifle...

I've brought this up before.........and alot of guys say "oh all of the retooling etc etc" but when Remington did step outside the box ........A TRIANGLE BARREL.....how about a square one next? Who came up with that idea??? I hope they are fired along with whomever approved the thing.

Now I admit....I would prefere a AICS over the B/C and I would like a McMillan over the B/C too and I would like the McCree etc etc. BUt I don't want to take away the fun from building a custom altogether
smile.gif
I'm just saying that the B/C stock would be a much better take off for those who wanted to swap and it would fit alot more shooters out of the box.
Even with a scope that goes into low rings I still don't get a good cheek weld with the HS PRecision.

Now if Remington really wanted "back" in the rifle business they could try out this rifle and then add the 260rem and the 6.5 x 47 Lapua and different barrel lengths and twist rates. They could offer diffent stocks and barrel lengths and even muzzle breaks etc.

I just would hate to see them overwhelmed at the beginning.

It would be nice to take a rifle home with a nice barrel and bolt knob and the stock you like. Take it home and take it apart and make sure all is well.......paint it to your liking and mount your scope and rings and start shooting. Too easy.

FN comes with muzzle breaks 18 inch barrels to 26 inch barrels, McMillan stocks and 20 moa 1 piece bases. They even have detachable box mags.........although I can't get too excited over a 4-5 round box mag.

Savage has added about 2 million options on factory rifles.

Now if FN shot a little tighter and Savage didn't have the accutrigger and both of them had more aftermarket parts like stocks and so forth I might buy 1........until then just keep turning wrenchs on remingtons.........it really too bad.

Derek
 
Re: Why Doesn't Remington just build this rifle...

I agree with this <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">when Remington did step outside the box ........A TRIANGLE BARREL.....how about a square one next? Who came up with that idea??? I hope they are fired along with whomever approved the thing.
</div></div>
Remington:
Take the XCR LR "Tactical" add a bolt knob.
Offer bbl in 20" and 24" versions.
Use 5R rifling profile
offer option of bottom metal that uses AI mags
OR
Take 5r milspec
Coat the damn thing in something to hide the pretty shiny stainless.
Put a real trigger in it(ie ditch the xmark trigger of variable pull weight)
add bolt knob and call it a day.

Either way: Enjoy profits.
 
Re: Why Doesn't Remington just build this rifle...

How about a Remington/Manners Composite Stocks rifle. Remington 5R barreled action, 40x trigger, Manners stock with their new DBM/Chassis system.

Should only cost $1200 to $1500 max.
 
Re: Why Doesn't Remington just build this rifle...

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Onemoretime</div><div class="ubbcode-body">How about a Remington/Manners Composite Stocks rifle. Remington 5R barreled action, 40x trigger, Manners stock with their new DBM/Chassis system.

Should only cost $1200 to $1500 max. </div></div>

Yep manners or a mcmillan...
 
Re: Why Doesn't Remington just build this rifle......?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Derek Myers</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> ...Alot of people myself included don't fit well with the HS Precision stocks Rem puts with their R5's and PSS rifles.

Why doesn't Remington take the R5 off of the "uncataloged" mystery list and ditch the HS Precision stocks that seem to be replaced by 90% of shooters...
Derek </div></div>

Hello to all. I'm a newbie here. I'm also a proud owner of a "Rem 700 Milspec 5R in 308". At 100 yds, I get 3 shot groups under 1/4 inch using off-the-shelf Fed. GM 175 MK BTHP. I only have a Leupold VX-II 3-9 x 40mm on it (saving $$ for S&B!!). I absolutely love this rifle especially that is only cost me around $900 plus the scope.

Any how, as far as the issues raised by Derek, from what I know, the 5R is not a regular Remington production gun. It is rather speced and made to order of one of their major national distributors. Dealers can ONLY get them if they are set up with that distributor. This is why you don't see it on any of Rem's catalogs and also that Remington does not have any control as to changing the stock or anything else on it. It's simply that distributor's special order!

I too don't like the stock. I like the color and the texture of it but not the "palm swell". It's bulky and I can never get the feel that I have control of the rifle in my hands. I'm releived to know that I wasn't the only one who didn't like the stock.

I've been thinking of an McM A5 stock or AICS (if I can afford it). All and all I love the rifle. I also wish that Rem will use the basic specification of that rifle and run a special line of the 5R and make it in other calibers besides 308, such as 300 WM or RUM, 338 RUM and LM. They'll sell them like cup cakes. They probably need to get feedback from 5R owners and hopefully at some point the "Marketing" will pick up on it. Thanks.
Max.
 
Re: Why Doesn't Remington just build this rifle......?

I can't really justify the price of a high end custom stick, although I'm saving some coin up to buy something like a GAP Crusader someday... but...

I do have two 5R's in .308 that are absolute tack drivers out of the box. That said I want M5 DMB, a vertical grip adjustable stock ala A5, a decent sized bolt knob, threaded barrel, and a dull finish on both of them. One is already in a ACIS 2.0 with a Badger knob and FTE, the other is still stock except an AZ Precision knob-job because I have 2 other 700's that I'm working on first.

I already have a McM A5 for the second 5R, got M5 on my buy list, and Duracoat of multi colors in the garage.

I looked at that 700 Target Tactical when looking for another base rifle to work on since it had the 5R rifling and a tactical vertical grip adjustable stock, but I couldn't get past that barrel. It just "looks" wrong to me, I'm old fashioned I guess.

And as long as we're making a wish list, I'd like to add a threaded barrel with thread protector and a picatinny rail to the spec list. Although I can build (and do enjoy doing it) a 5R to my own specs for a price considerably less than a custom stick, if Remington or 'that big distributor' put together one like we want they could do it for still less. And it would be a guaranteed seller in the mid-range market.

Oh well, some things will always be a mystery, like that triangular barrel...
 
Re: Why Doesn't Remington just build this rifle......?

You guys are overlooking the fact that the market for a TRUE tactical rifle is rather small.

Rifle buyers, as a whole, are ignorant of what WE want in a rifle.

In fact, the biggest money maker Reminton could ever produce is a cheap ass rifle that they simply stamp the word "TACTICAL" on and charge a premium for.

The vast majority of buyers would not know the difference and think they have a shit hot rifle just because they can tell thier buds, "mine is tactical".

The tactical market interest is currently in an upswing...but that will change. The public has the attention span of a knat, and soon the trend will shift to something else. Those of us that enjoy tactical shooting will continue to buy rifles designed for that...but those that are just buying tactical rifles (and not using them for such) will soon turn their attention to something else-the latest and greatest trend.
 
Re: Why Doesn't Remington just build this rifle......?

Here is what I know.....the R5 barrel is made for the Rem military sniper contract.....the ones that are slightly ...I mean slightly out of spec get offered to us the public. Thats how it started. I worked with a guy who was military...went private and worked with me......private work was deemed illegal by the UN expect for Security details..he went back to military after years out and got a promotion and signing bonus ?? Combat experience I guess was at a premium. Anyway he was involved in testing of sniper equipment......the Remington "guy" told him now the R5's the sell to the public are not just the outta spec units but also topshelf units. They keep it uncataloged to make it seem "special" to us civilain geeks. I think thats why some guys get "real good ones" in R5 and others are so-so.

Why doesn't Rem offer the R5 in numbers to the public as a barreled action??? Would that sell? How many custom shops would buy that unit?

Tactical rifles will never out sell the $599 special. But a rifle like we mentioned at an out the door saleat $1300?? Ready to mount optic and shoot? We have what 26,000 SH members...plus at least that many regular guests who stay in the shadows.........lets say 50,000 guys. Plus all of the custom shops who check in here or are vendor members....plus how many regular Joe's looking for rifles google and end up here to get questions answered?

Plus I think alot of guys who shoot just for hunting who are buying TC's and Tikka's and so forth or Weatherbys would jump at a chance to shoot a true tactical and work on their shooting with no gun smith involvement.

I personally think with not alot of advertising beyond here on the Hide and usual run of samples to gun writers Remington would sell 10,000 units year 1.

I have gotten alot of PM's about this thread.......I don't recall ever intending to do a letter writing campaign. However here is the point I am reaching. If someone wanted to make this thread into a poll or a mega page thread.....maybe somebody would have to recruit Shankster to get the page volume up. Anyway if this thing developed true steam I would on my own dime(unless a pool was made
smile.gif
go to Remingtons Corporate offices and make a presentation. I think I have an Armani or Brooks Brothers in Plastic wrap that still may fit. In fact I have always lived close to LEupold and I met the guy a few times who handles their corporate accounts and they have one with Remington.......so I could find out the right guy to talk to get a foot in the door.

If they made just 1 unit I would agree to shoot it for 1 year....and never ever for any reason pull the trigger on another rifle and put 10,000 rounds through the test rifle and give it back. Everybody on here or anywhere else could look at the setup and proposed price and see if its worth building. I know they build alot of rifles that don't sell anywhere near 10,000 units a year and we aren't talking about special tooling or new parts........except maybe that difficult bolt knob
smile.gif


In fact I have thought this over for a couple days now. I always say I am a Remington 700 guy 100% through and through. Its the action that has parts available.....its the system I can be a gun smith on........no big machines needed.

But the real truth is about 20 years ago when I shot at targets that shot back......on many continents I carried a Winchester Model 70.........wood stock........yeah I am old(just turned 42) I have done more shooting with a Rem 700 and built guns from action up. But taking game, winning matches(losing too) and teaching students for 20 years and all those rounds don't equal the memories I have with that Model 70....at least not in how important they are. The time with that Model 70 besides trying to be a good father it was the most significant thing I have ever done on Gods earth.

If this thing builds steam and Remington or the Freedom group won't listen to intelligent end users that make sense.

I am thinking I may never shoot one again. Maybe I'll go FN..hey they provide our troops with 50% of all their weapons whats not American about that. I can find parts and I am not too old to learn how to home smith a FN.

I am so frustrated with this issue.......I even had a thought as I have recovered from 4 years of surgeries........lost 80% use of my right arm.....minimal sensation in my right hand...I NEED to shoot again.......its part of me. Maybe with all I have lost.........maybe I no longer am worthy of a weapon with a soul. A nice bolt rifle has a soul, a 1911 has a soul etc etc...some people give their weapons names. Maybe I will just shoot an AR..........10??? 308?? Maybe if Remington turns their back......I'll start to learn the AR10 and you'll see a broken down bullet scarred dude out shooting long range tactical matches with a 20 inch HB Ar10....just a black plastic shooter with no soul???

I think I may be going insane.......if I keep typing I am afraid I'll get a black sedan visit asking why I am out to get Remington
smile.gif


Take Care guys-Derek
 
Re: Why Doesn't Remington just build this rifle......?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Derek Myers</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
...Why doesn't Rem offer the R5 in numbers to the public as a barreled action??? Would that sell? How many custom shops would buy that unit?...

...Plus I think alot of guys who shoot just for hunting who are buying TC's and Tikka's and so forth or Weatherbys would jump at a chance to shoot a true tactical and work on their shooting with no gun smith involvement...

...I personally think with not alot of advertising beyond here on the Hide and usual run of samples to gun writers Remington would sell 10,000 units year 1...

...If someone wanted to make this thread into a poll or a mega page thread.....[and] if this thing developed true steam I would on my own dime(unless a pool was made
smile.gif
go to Remingtons Corporate offices and make a presentation...</div></div>

I think you said the key thing that can make it work. We need some sort of polling that targets a certain performance and spec at a targeted price. For example a questionaire like:

Would you buy an out of box rifle that can hold sub-MOA at (say) $950?
A) Strongly agree
B) Agree
C) Maybe
D) Disagree
E) Strongly disagree

We would also add a few more questions to it, of course, to make it into a more meaningful survey. After that we will have real numbers to take to Remington suits. You all know big Corporations are all about the bottom line although they don't like to make themselves look that way.
In some Corporates the marketing conducts research and then takes their numbers to the HQ and says if you build this I can sell it.
However, sometimes HQ decides that in order to make $$ and in order to stay in business during tough times they need to build something at a lower cost so that they can sell it for say $399, $499 etc (you get the picture). Now you have a birth of a truly crappy gimmick that sells but it's not worth the box that it came in with. That's how companies loose their market share and eventually go out of the picture.
So why companies don't do better marketing research? Well it's expensive and time consuming. Marketing guys don't know much about engineering or production etc.. and in down times many companies layoff the marketing and rely on their sales to push their newly invented gimmicks (triangle barrel anyone?? how about a square one? or better a flat one you can fry an egg on it in case you get hungry!!)

The gun industry has been a taboo in this country thanks to the efforts of the libs. Gun makers are relying on the current gun enthusiasts to sell their stuff. I haven't seen a marketing campaign that is designed to reach the non-users or owners out there. Only recently I have noticed spot ads on TV about a gun manufacturer (I live in California... Yeh, your condolences are accepted... even worst, I moved here from Massachussetts... talk about a double whammy). This industry is trying to rise up again especially after the success of the AR15 platform. Now, thanks to the now-popular 3-gun competitions and practical shooting competitions, guns are beginning to become (I hope) more mainstream. Who knows maybe it becomes an olympic sport one day or even someday ESPN starts to show those competitions as one their weekend sporting programs instead of woman's golf!! or mens for that matter (I hate golf!). If enough people join in then the legislature is less likely to add more restrictions and the libs will finally have to get out of Dodge.

I personally think these gun competitions are going to save and preserve our 2nd Amendment rights (I wish we had them in California). Hunting cannot do it alone as a sport. Besides there will be no Deer left if we had 200 million hunters in this country. The competitors are clean and spiffy looking (no offense), there is no blood; it's exciting and you can sell advertising spots in between events. It's a sexy event; it sells. The average non-gun-owner can relate himself easier to a competitor than to a hunter (don't get me wrong I love hunting but it's not for everyone and shouldn't be either). Hunting is very expensive and time consuming and most folks are too intimidated to even entertain the idea but anyone can shoot at a paper target at a nearby range. You go there for couple of hours shoot your loads; meet some fine folks; make new friends; learn something from the pros for free... you be back in time before the wify starts calling you on the cell... you can't go wrong there. I love it at the range.

Here, I repectfully disagree with "gugubica" about Tactical rifle's market shares (I'm a newbie so be easy on me). Just look at how many GA Precisions, McMillans, etc companies are out there. They are all doing well. They are not cheap either and you get new companies comming out all the time. These competitions are going to invite more and "new" people to the sport and that means "sales, sales and sales".

I think a sub-MOA rifle with a name brand (Remington) for around $950 is going to be a great entry point (in my case a lasting point) for anyone interested to get into these competitions or even a reliable hunting stick. The rifle is light (around 8lbs with scope), accurate and affordable. Compare that to a GAP or MCM rifle, they are expensive (for most folks) and allot heavier (12lb+ without scope). Again, don't get me wrong I love GAP and McM but they are not for everyone. I don't think they protray themselves as such either. They have their own niche market and are doing well and I wish them all the best and thank them for what they are doing.

I do agree with "gugubica" that members of this forum consider a truly tactical rifle something different than the lay men out there (me included) and that is where GAP, McM, Chey Tac, AI etc come in. But the purpose of what Derek is saying is that the 700SS 5R is a great platform for many folks out there (including many here) wanting to get into an affordable, accurate and "tactical" rifle; why not mass produce it or at least produce more of it and more openly available. The intent is not to take over GAP or McM's business but rather complement it. It's actually good for their business because it gives them more indirect market exposure and can attract new people in the sport who may eventually buy a GAP of McM at some point.

I think it would be a success. It can be a nice entry stick for any hunter or competitor want-a-be.

By the way, who makes the 5R barrel on the Rem 700SS MilSpec? Is it Bartlein?

Sorry for the long post...
Max.
 
Re: Why Doesn't Remington just build this rifle......?

That B&C #1000 stock, or one of Tom's using the 5R or 700P barreled action would be the ticket.

As for the statement about the "worst hand position/grip", you are the first and only that has ever mentioned this. Thanks for the input.

If it were me, I would set up the following as a 700P II.


-B&C #1000 or the MCST3 by Manners. (more user friendly stocks than the current offering)
-24" barrel, threaded. (22-250, .243, .260, .308, and 300WSM)
-PTG Steel Triggerguard.
-Larger bolt knob (maybe similar to the Stiller Tac 30 knob)
-40X Trigger.
$1000 price tag
 
Re: Why Doesn't Remington just build this rifle......?

I sure would miss pacing the floor waiting on the gun smith.
 
Re: Why Doesn't Remington just build this rifle......?

Remington makes their own barrels as far as I know....at least they used to. I don't think the idea of a new rifle would take too much data or research...........I mean how many studies did they do before launching their line of triangle shaped barrels??

The idea is to keep the rifle reasonable......we can all swap stocks. I think what we need is to eliminate the gunsmithing that has to be done. The Bushmaster link is most likely a good shooter...but its too much money.

good trigger, good barrel, bolt knob, adjustable stock. Take the R5 and put a good trigger and adjustable stock I like the B/C for this idea because its cheap and Remington already has a deal with B/C. You don't want to pay $675 extra for a stock to swap it out as soon as it shows up.

We could go on with a detachable box mag..........and I think in a factory gun with 10 round mags that would be great but this rifle could sell as a standard. When we get into things like muzzle devices and so forth its too much personal preferance....so maybe a threaded muzzle with a thread protector.

My thought is an off the shelf rifle that comes with a 100 yard test target, good tactical trigger..mid length barrel 22inches? Adjustable stock and that DAMN BOLT KNOB. We need a shooter we can buy as an end user for $1200 or so.

Derek
 
Re: Why Doesn't Remington just build this rifle......?

Sounds good. You can introduce one as a basic package, say with B/C stock and a better KNOB; and then offer different options for stock, trigger/action, and scope etc.
 
Re: Why Doesn't Remington just build this rifle......?

.260



make a fucking .260 remington
 
Re: Why Doesn't Remington just build this rifle......?

Initially, I am pretty sure that Mike made the 5-R barrels for them, but Remington produces thier own now.

I do think that the 5R is the best value rifle available from Remington. There is a fine line between availability and exclucivity. Remington controls where that line is. I guaran-damn-tee you one thing though...if the current stock of these rifles were selling like wild fire...Remington would find a way to get more on the market.

There are other companies, Savage for example, that are getting into selling more out of the box tactical ready rifles. I think they are finding that the extra cost required in building these rifles is a turn off to most consumers. Either way, I am sure that Remington, and every one else, pays attention to the marketing experiments of each other.

One thing that I am certain of though...you can get some good shooters from the big factories. But, you can always make them better. A mass produced factory Remington tube is never going to be as good as a low production volume, hand lapped custom tube. Same goes for the actions, producing anything in large volume has its trade offs.

The question is, what is good enough. The 5R is a GREAT rifle, but it could be better...is it good enough? That is up to the end user to figure out, and it will varry with each user.
 
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