Night Vision Why dual helmet-mounted Skeets/ChinaSkeets crushes NV...

[TheHorta]

The sad irony is that iRAY was going to sell the MH25 in 10-piece lots at roughly $2K/unit -- and they thought that was a bonanza. Then they wise-up and see that these things can fetch double that in the USA.

It shows where the market for quality thermal is heading. The sensors themselves aren't that expensive to manufacture (assuming you have the Fab, of course), and the accompanying components and housing are relatively cheap. Smaller sensors -- like the 10-micron iRAY chip -- mean smaller lenses, meaning less Germanium, which is pricey.

In short, there is little reason the MH25 actually costs $4500 today, save for there is a demand that will pay that kinda coin for it. Over the next 5 years, devices like the MH25 will be going for sub-$2K.

I'm really waiting for HD thermal to hit the mainstream. Quality 640px is The Nuts, but once you've spent any time behind HD, all bets are off.

 

[TheGerman]

 

[deersniper]

Lol fighting pigs, antifa and other varmints will be fine with thermal/nv bridged

 

[Jgunner]

Making me second guess the iray there wig! But is the picture THAT much better in the iray?
Iray after mount and eye piece is roughly 5k. Might be able to get a patrol for 6k new if they take well to you. Thats only 1k difference (at best). I hate supporting china, and even if the company making most of the money is stateside(no idea), its still not ideal.

 

[Choid]

Pretty sure TNVC had nothing to do with it and you meant UNV.

Might wanna correct that. That's a non-trivial error.

Dude, don't ruin the fun.

 

[WhereNow&How]

Lol fighting pigs, antifa and other varmints will be fine with thermal/nv bridged

Probably won't have to fight very hard. They doing a good enuff job on each other.

3 victims sent to hospital after guns discharges during NFAC demonstration at Baxter Square Park

Louisville Metro Police have said three people have been transported to the hospital after being struck by gunfire at the NFAC demonstration at Baxter Square Park

www.wave3.com

 

[TheGerman]

All we need now is some NV vendor to come in here and threaten to sue everyone for libel.

 

[wigwamitus]

...
Making me second guess the iray there wig! But is the picture THAT much better in the iray?
Iray after mount and eye piece is roughly 5k. Might be able to get a patrol for 6k new if they take well to you. Thats only 1k difference (at best). I hate supporting china, and even if the company making most of the money is stateside(no idea), its still not ideal ...

Post from Plinkit below ...

Night Vision - New helmet mounted 640 scanners

So I'm looking at ultimate night vision after getting a text from a friend... And see a new little widget from a company I've never heard of IRay Mini MH25 Thermal Helmet Mountable Monocular 640X480 25mm I'm guessing this is an early leak from a shot show release, but at 4500 bucks for a 640...

www.snipershide.com

...
I finally got a chance to put my patrol next to one of these and I honestly can't say that I see what all the fuss is about...

It's a little lighter than the patrol, but I'll take the weight for the obvious difference in structural integrity and having a recoil rating if I need it on a rifle or shotgun for a little bit

Picture looked no better in our examples and it lacks the ability to have a magnifier lens on the front ...

==
Also, if (as it seems) we have to pay an extra $300 to get the PVS-14 eye piece for the chinese unit, that's $6,300 for the patrol and $4,800 for the iray ... so not twice as much for the patrol as some have said ... but 30% more ... (31.25% or 6300/4800)

And the patrol can do some things neither the skeet nor the iray can do ...

Long distance thermal range finder ... and it can even be weapons mounted as a dedicated thermal in that mode on 556 and below with some improvements to the mount for the 3x magnifier. The RAPTAR adds an ir-laser pointer to the thermal range finder, if that is of use.

So, flexability.

==
Now the newer patrols (IDK the exact date but maybe a year ago +/-) lose some rear end demagnification and are hence 1.5x on the front and 1.5x net. Thus the clipon capability was likewise removed (need 1x net for clipon) ... and this is a negative for the head mounted case, though not a show stopper ... I often move (on foot or on 4-wheeler) on 2x digital on the patrol, with 14 on 1x. But for the long distance thermal range finder use case. the 1.5x is good. WIth the 3x on front, we're now 4.5x ... then 9x ... then 18x ... and the 4x digital is definitely useable ... I've been able to watch a cows ear flopping around while she was workin on a bale at 450yds in the pouring rain (on 4x digital) and a yote jaw moving up and down workin on a field mouse at 300yds ... the yote was layin on the ground ... on 4x digital. You can still see a lot of 4x digital on the Trijicons.

==
Also note, there are rumors of two additional ( USA made ) head mountable thermals comin' out some time "soon" ... my estimate ... "announcement by end of SHOT" ...
Though I suppose (my est.) best case availability 6 months from now, worst case availability 9 months after SHOT. Back in 2015, we had the IR-Patrol and the Armasight Q-14 both announced at SHOT and both available by Sept 2015. So 2021 could see this sort of event (once every six years ?) happen again

 

[EWS6]

The sad irony is that iRAY was going to sell the MH25 in 10-piece lots at roughly $2K/unit -- and they thought that was a bonanza. Then they wise-up and see that these things can fetch double that in the USA.

It shows where the market for quality thermal is heading. The sensors themselves aren't that expensive to manufacture (assuming you have the Fab, of course), and the accompanying components and housing are relatively cheap. Smaller sensors -- like the 10-micron iRAY chip -- mean smaller lenses, meaning less Germanium, which is pricey.

So if thermal sensors are so cheap where does the cost come from for the skeetir? Low production numbers means the amortization is higher?

 

[WhereNow&How]

Post from Plinkit below ...

Night Vision - New helmet mounted 640 scanners

So I'm looking at ultimate night vision after getting a text from a friend... And see a new little widget from a company I've never heard of IRay Mini MH25 Thermal Helmet Mountable Monocular 640X480 25mm I'm guessing this is an early leak from a shot show release, but at 4500 bucks for a 640...

www.snipershide.com

==
Also, if (as it seems) we have to pay an extra $300 to get the PVS-14 eye piece for the chinese unit, that's $6,300 for the patrol and $4,800 for the iray ... so not twice as much for the patrol as some have said ... but 30% more ... (31.25% or 6300/4800)

And the patrol can do some things neither the skeet nor the iray can do ...

Long distance thermal range finder ... and it can even be weapons mounted as a dedicated thermal in that mode on 556 and below with some improvements to the mount for the 3x magnifier. The RAPTAR adds an ir-laser pointer to the thermal range finder, if that is of use.

So, flexability.

==
Now the newer patrols (IDK the exact date but maybe a year ago +/-) lose some rear end demagnification and are hence 1.5x on the front and 1.5x net. Thus the clipon capability was likewise removed (need 1x net for clipon) ... and this is a negative for the head mounted case, though not a show stopper ... I often move (on foot or on 4-wheeler) on 2x digital on the patrol, with 14 on 1x. But for the long distance thermal range finder use case. the 1.5x is good. WIth the 3x on front, we're now 4.5x ... then 9x ... then 18x ... and the 4x digital is definitely useable ... I've been able to watch a cows ear flopping around while she was workin on a bale at 450yds in the pouring rain (on 4x digital) and a yote jaw moving up and down workin on a field mouse at 300yds ... the yote was layin on the ground ... on 4x digital. You can still see a lot of 4x digital on the Trijicons.

==
Also note, there are rumors of two additional ( USA made ) head mountable thermals comin' out some time "soon" ... my estimate ... "announcement by end of SHOT" ...
Though I suppose (my est.) best case availability 6 months from now, worst case availability 9 months after SHOT. Back in 2015, we had the IR-Patrol and the Armasight Q-14 both announced at SHOT and both available by Sept 2015. So 2021 could see this sort of event (once every six years ?) happen again

Yeah, the Patrol with the 3x Magnifier is a beast. One of my buddies has that setup and it is bad to the bone.

Wig, what is the make and model of the lens cap you have on the magnifier in the picture? It looks good. Might want to pick some of those up for my 2 Magnifiers.

 

[PlinkIt]

I think wig is nailing exactly what I saw when comparing the units... People want to compare this thing to a skeet and say it's 1/3 the price, but it doesn't do half the stuff either.. it didn't even do what the patrol can do, but it's the thing it comes closest to in price now

I was wanting to buy one of the iray units when I first saw the initial price it showed up at.
And
If the iray came in at the price it started at... Basically competing with the flir breach in the 2-3k price range, then it is an absolute beast with no competition there! But at double that price it's far too close not to buy the better patrol (better is my opinion here, ymmv I guess)

When I tried looking at the two units side by side (granted this is a sample of 1 patrol vs 1 iray) the picture of the patrol was actually fairing better in the conditions than the iray. Were they close? Yep, and if I looked at them two different days vs side by side I couldn't tell you which was better.

That plastic thing is NOT going to take the abuse the patrol will though! I can promise anyone that much!

Weight difference was non existent for a helmet mounted unit in my opinion (again ymmv I guess)

 

[wigwamitus]

... what is the make and model of the lens cap you have on the magnifier ...

 

[MarinePMI]

 

[CoryT]

Yeah, the Patrol with the 3x Magnifier is a beast. One of my buddies has that setup and it is bad to the bone.

Wig, what is the make and model of the lens cap you have on the magnifier in the picture? It looks good. Might want to pick some of those up for my 2 Magnifiers.

I'm more interested in the modification to the mount for weapon sight use. Did you just drill and tap the wings to put in a screw to expand the ring into the groove? Mine actually fits pretty snug, I can't just pull it out, but it does not give me the warm fuzzies on real security.

 

[Jgunner]

That fucking 3x is $2500?!? Uhhhhh thats a bit steep.

 

[wigwamitus]

Two mods

01 - Screw in the clamp to force the clamps part to lock up ... that part worked fine. but the lens screw on part still moved.
02 - So added a tiny locking screw in there. It "hides" in the threads. You back it out into the threads to "store it" ... and then "unback" it out of the thread into a locking hole, to lock it down. It works for sure with 556. I haven't challenged it with 762.

I think Torrey Pines will do this for you, for a fee. Or something like this ... mine got done as a one off by someone else. But I know TPL has done essentially the same mod for others.

 

[wigwamitus]

... That fucking 3x is $2500?!? Uhhhhh thats a bit steep ...

Used to be able to get 'em for $1500 but that source dried up ... maybe we could do a group buy and get it down a little if there was enough interest.

 

[WhereNow&How]

That fucking 3x is $2500?!? Uhhhhh thats a bit steep.

Yeah but performance aint cheap. One of the big things to keep in mind is that with a 3x magnifier option for your Thermal you have the best of many worlds.

Point being when you are in thick country you leave it off and have great FOV. When you get out on the open fields, put it on and you have long range PID.

Using a 3x magnifier affords using 1 device, very well for multiple uses. Comes as close to a 1 and done as you can get in the Thermal camera world IMHO.

Wigs idea of a group buy is likely the best way to approach reducing the price for sure.

 

[jwramp]

So you're talking somewhere in the neighborhood of 40oz or 2.5lb hanging off the front of your head, at maybe $10,500 retail, plus whatever all the mounts are, and a 14 for the other eye? I can't think of a better time for the huge-necked-dude meme, damn. And it holds zero with the 3x mounted in front on top of a rifle? That surprises me.

EDIT - lol just saw the one with the RAPTAR. So maybe add $6k to that. And the argument is that this is the affordable option?

 

[TheHorta]

C’mon N-Vision! We’re waiting for you. Step up and be our champion!

10-ounce, SkeetIR form factor, Wilcox shoe, 640px BAE 12um core with HD OLED display — it’s ALL about the display! Don’t cheap-out and put some low-rent VGA screen in there like you did with the Atlas!

IR laser earns big brownie points, but not necessary.

Weapon-mountable and it’s a SkeetIR-Killer.

@Max_R

 

[WhereNow&How]

And it holds zero with the 3x mounted in front on top of a rifle? That surprises me.

I run TPL 3X Magnifiers on Flir PTS 233's which turns it into a longer range 4.5 X Native Magnification. They hold zero on my setups very well.

So, if I am in thick stuff, I don't run magnifier. If I am on open country, I run magnifier. Best of both worlds.

When walking around with my Breach on my Mod Armory Bridges, if I need better detection or PID on something way out there, I just hand hold a 3X TPL magnifier up like a slip on PVS 14 magnifier and presto, the mini mouse Breach turns into Mighty Mouse.

The ability to use a large Germanium lens, is one of the huge factors in Thermal Camera performance. Arguably, maybe the most important single factor, setting everything else aside.

 

[jwramp]

Oh wow, and screwing them on and off doesn't change your zero? Impressive. Starts to make the price they're charging not quite as crazy if they're built that well. I'm also excited about the sensor tech reducing the need for such big germanium. I see it on the camera side of things with all the micro 4/3 stuff being so much more compact (and cheaper) than full-frame.

 

[PlinkIt]

Used to be able to get 'em for $1500 but that source dried up ... maybe we could do a group buy and get it down a little if there was enough interest.

Sign me up!

 

[WhereNow&How]

Oh wow, and screwing them on and off doesn't change your zero? Impressive. Starts to make the price they're charging not quite as crazy if they're built that well. I'm also excited about the sensor tech reducing the need for such big germanium. I see it on the camera side of things with all the micro 4/3 stuff being so much more compact (and cheaper) than full-frame.

I gotta run for the afternoon, but will explain more later this evening. Quick version. Yes it does change your zero, but with 3 Profiles allowed in the Flir PTS line, Profile 1 is PTS 233 no magnifier. Profile 2 is PTS 233 with Magnifier on. So as you vary between magnifier on and off, just change your profile.

 

[Max_R]

We _maybe_ thinking about something around 12/14 oz including battery with/without weapon mount. OK for shoe, no for HD OLED, no for laser. The message about Atlas displays is loud and clear. No reason to change the core.

C’mon N-Vision! We’re waiting for you. Step up and be our champion!

10-ounce, SkeetIR form factor, Wilcox shoe, 640px BAE 12um core with HD OLED display — it’s ALL about the display! Don’t cheap-out and put some low-rent VGA screen in there like you did with the Atlas!

IR laser earns big brownie points, but not necessary.

Weapon-mountable and it’s a SkeetIR-Killer.

@Max_R

 

[PlinkIt]

We _maybe_ thinking about something around 12/14 oz including battery with/without weapon mount. OK for shoe, no for HD OLED, no for laser. The message about Atlas displays is loud and clear. No reason to change the core.

Looking forward to_maybe_seeing this

If no for laser any chance you can get a small section of pic rail molded into the housing? End user can "add" whatever they see a need for at that point.

Would be nice if it could accept a magnifier as well...

It could completely replace the patrol at that point and cut a little weight and maybe size...

 

[TheHorta]

Gold Star for @Max_R

 

[Max_R]

We still have some thinking/tinkering to do. It's a bit too early for stars.

Gold Star for @Max_R

 

[Max_R]

@PlinkIt, a section of the Picatinny rail is no go because it adds a bit of bulk/weight. Somebody may be able to come up with a way to attach a laser to the Wilcox adapter or somewhere else. There should be options.

Magnifier should not be a problem.

...
If no for laser any chance you can get a small section of pic rail molded into the housing? End user can "add" whatever they see a need for at that point.
...
Would be nice if it could accept a magnifier as well...
...

 

[SkyScrapin]

@PlinkIt, a section of the Picatinny rail is no go because it adds a bit of bulk/weight. Somebody may be able to come up with a way to attach a laser to the Wilcox adapter or somewhere else. There should be options.

Magnifier should not be a problem.

Target price ceiling?

 

[Max_R]

@SkyScrapin Ceiling? $10k But if we decided to think hard enough about this pipe dream, it will be _quite_ competitive with apples-to-apples comparable models.

Target price ceiling?

 

[SkyScrapin]

@SkyScrapin Ceiling? $10k But if we decided to think hard enough about this pipe dream, it will be _quite_ competitive with apples-to-apples comparable models.

You’re my hero. Doing gods work!

 

[jwramp]

@PlinkIt, a section of the Picatinny rail is no go because it adds a bit of bulk/weight. Somebody may be able to come up with a way to attach a laser to the Wilcox adapter or somewhere else. There should be options.

Magnifier should not be a problem.

Hmm a couple threaded inserts might be nice - maybe spaced out the same as mlok screws typically are with a depression between so you could use mlok picatinny adapters when needed.

 

[Twistid]

What's the feasibility of running a PVS14 and Coronaskeet on the same bridge? Would this work for a decent dual band setup?