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Hunting & Fishing Why Guns and Ammo HATES the .308

biner626 said:
Someone needs to tell him it's not the arrow but the Indian.
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No betters words, its not the tool but the user of the tool unless I miss then it was all the tools faults ;)


BoilerUP said:
If you can't drive a 308...you won't be able to drive a 270, '06 or 300WM.

"There's no replacement for displacement" but horsepower is useless unless you can keep the damn thing between the lines.
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All I can say is, go to AF&G sighting in day to learn everything you need to know about this subject. A 250lb male jerking the trigger on his 300, 338, 375, 416 with a shotgun pattern Vs a 125lb female or 14 year old with their 243, 7.08 slicing center. A miss is a miss, horsepower included. Seen every year I heard some form of this with the latest being, moose are hard to kill, I put 3 shots of my 375 last year and that thing walked off, this year I am hunting with a 416, this will kill a moose. Yet my family has tipped over more moose than that hunter has seen with a 22.250.

Like most rag writers, his goal was exactly what he got, he stirred the pot with emotions.
 
schmitty said:
Does the .308 Fit the Long-Range Hunting Bill? - Guns & Ammo
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This article has paid for by Nosler written all over it.

Paste the liquor guys mug here.
“I don’t normally shoot long range,
but when I do...
I use the most inflated ballistic advantage out there”

Any bets on the real BC??? I am thinking .56g1 will be pushing it and will be surprised if it beats Bergers .57g1 190 vld and will pour doe piss on my boots if it beats JLK’s .58g1 180 vld...

Now to the author’s defense, I doubt may serious long range hunters subscribe or even look through a guns and ammo magazine... let alone use store bought ammo.

My hunting party refused to believe my 260 load hit harder and shot flatter than what they are shooting in their 7mm rem mag’s past 400 yards. When confronted with the math from jbm their response was “ya but that’s all on paper not real world performance”. I had a heck of a time explaining how I was zeroed for every distance to 600 verses their method of holding on fur... Their shots per deer taken last year was 4.3 rounds to my 1... They would be his target audience.
 
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MontanaMarine said:
The way I see it is like this,

An experienced and knowledgable long range shooter/hunter can easily drive a 308 to 600 yards, and beyond. That same shooter has the skills/knowledge/experience to truly capitalize on the ballistics of a 300 WinMag.

Your 20-rounds-per-year shooter/hunter will be challenged shooting the 308 to 300 yards, and will most likely do a lot worse with a 300 WinMag.
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Well said... How many rounds do you fire each year at 100/200/300 yards offhand? Prone/kneeling/sitting? @ extended ranges prone? After getting your heart rate up? It takes a lot of practice to feel confident in anything. Shooting is no different...

Disclaimer: I'm not saying my go to is to rip 300 yards off hand but I do practice that shot a lot... and yes, with my .308.
 
Wow this guy waded right into a stream of contriversy with his opinions on the 308 , he must have been low on material or stories to pull this cartridge and its fan base on with such a review. There are so many variables in this debate you would never
pin these points down to everyones satisfaction but like almost 100% of you guys I have had the 308 prove its worth to me over and over again and most of us love it for exactly the same reason STELLA ACCURACY , add to that mild to shoot long barrel
life fantastic range of modern super performance projectiles and you have a sensational package. This guy had enough of a mix of fact and fabrication in his story to get the result he predicted in the opening sentance , comparing it to the 7mag and the likes
is a fruitless activity. My bet ........ it was / is a rev up but like a couple of you guys have said we will stand our 308 field photo albums up for inspection against his and see how we compare ;-)
 
If you are sending rounds down range to stop a beating heart there are three things you must balance:

Precision or shot placement
A .308 continues to be a favorite easy to shoot with a high level of precision. Not the flattest shooting caliber but with practice proper data collection works fine.

Bullet Penetration
Probably the most important, penetration kills bottom line. By matching the correct bullet design for your engagement range a .308 can shine. Many here decide to just over compensate with bigger cartridges, takes work out of the equation , many shooters will gain penetration with bigger and lose precision, the balancing act I spoke about.

Energy transfer
Again bullet design, a balance of velocity at hunting ranges and bullet design.
0-300 yards- lighter weight/shorter flat base soft point bullet will give best results and have a higher stability on the miller scale, boat tails are not required here.
300-600- match grade bullets work well the bullet has bled some velocity and the thinner bullet jackets do not shatter of come apart upon impact.
600-(fill in your number)- I will use a Berger hunting VLD or similar design.

Just my observations and experiences your mileage may vary.
 
psinclair said:
variouspics009.jpg


320 meters and a step or two from disappearing into thick brush in the last bit of shooting light. Intentionally broke both shoulders with a 155 scenar.....lucky again.
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Love. LOVE (!) psinclair's hunting pics. Dang he hunts some ridiculously nice animals.

Count your blessings psinclair.
 
All I have are 308's (not counting 22lr) and I have a bunch. My main hunting rig is a Hill Country Rifle, Remington 308 but I have a Cooper as well. Then a few like my TRG and AI. I'm thinking of adding a 300 win mag in a heavier long range rig but if I buy another strictly hunting rifle, I'll probably go 280 Remington
 
Yeah he stirred the pot pretty well.

Shot placement is what matters. I have heard the "10% rule" - 'the operator of a piece of machinery has to be 10% smarter than the piece of equipment to make it work effectively.' To be 'gifted' is to be twice or more as smart as the equipment. Meaning, KNOW WHAT THE LIMITS & CAPABILITIES of your equipment is.

I agree with many other comments, in that a skilled shooter with a .308WIN has better odds than un-skilled with larger/longer cartridges.

BUT, I also agree with some points of the author, in similar mindset I choose to start into this interest in the .300WM cartridge - as it appears more versatile for me & my (hopefully!) developing skillset.

He has some very arguable points:

Outside 250 yards, however, performance becomes questionable, then downright poor as distances stretch. Why? It has poor wind-bucking ability, low velocity, rainbow trajectory and low energy.
Trouble is, many .308 owners refuse to recognize the cartridge’s limitations.
Read more: Does the .308 Fit the Long-Range Hunting Bill? - Guns & Ammo

I would ONLY agree with these: 'rainbow trajectory' & 'lower energy' remarks, though.

~Will
 
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If were going to impose a shooting cap of 250 yards Guns & Ammo, one would be well served with nothing more than a 223 ;)
 
10 minutes of watching the guns&ammo tv show on the outdoor channel led me to believe that i'd had wasted 10 minutes. the only one that sounded like he knew what the hell he was talking about was the shotgun guy.

not even close to the standards their magazine ONCE had.
 
IMG_1242.jpg


Myself and a good friend from Michigan with a nice mule deer buck he took with his GAP .308 at 400+ meters.

IMG_0398.jpg


The guy holding the antlers of this buck killed it with one shot from 600 meters with my Surgeon .308 and one well placed 155gr scenar. The scope on his .270 went south during the hunt. I was more than happy to loan him my rifle....only problem was, he wanted to take the rifle back to Iowa with him after the hunt was over......grin! He took the buck with him, but the rifle stayed.
 
IMG_1286.jpg


One of my own bucks taken with the same .308. This one was 470 meters.


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My good friend from Garfield County, Montana with a 7X7 bull he shot in the Missouri breaks in 2007 with his GAP .308.
 
Mr. Sinclair,
Noticed that little folding rest with ammo and information containment. Is that your brain child and is it adjustable for elevation? Nice little package and where might a fellow "requisition" one of them little thingies?
 
theirs videos of people shooting (clean kill) moose with a 30-30 at 100 yards on youtube. the ballistics of a 30-30 at 100 yards is the same as the ballistics of a 308 at 600 yards. people who say the 308 is underguned for large game and long ranges are full of it. the shooters is what it comes down to. if they can put the shot where it needs to go then that's all that matters. the fact is that most people who say the 308 is a close range only gun are lacking in their knowledge of long range ballistics.
 
SFree said:
Mr. Sinclair,
Noticed that little folding rest with ammo and information containment. Is that your brain child and is it adjustable for elevation? Nice little package and where might a fellow "requisition" one of them little thingies?
Click to expand...

My little folding rest I came up with a few years back. Water Jet cut from aluminum plate. It goes from about 1.5" to 9", with a nylon draw string and keeper. The saddle is lined with leather to protect the rifle's forend.
 
I find this thread a little funny. My brother just got a GAP 308 and before he ordered he asked me if 308 was enough. I remember chuckling and telling him, I know of this guy from Montana that kills everything including elk at over 500 yards with a 308. Yes, I think it is enough gun.

Well done Pat, thanks for the pics again. You are an inspiration!

BTW...his GAP is a hammer.
 
...why G&A hates...
.308 rifles are quite diffused, therefore already selled_
the work of a magazine like G&A is oriented to promoting NEW buys (please, verify the % of advertising pages vs. the remaining few) : that's easier bashin'out the calibers/rifles already selled and buyed in big qty., and offering NEW wondertoys in NEW wondercalibers_ (better if with some bright light inside the barrel, on the front cover,of course)_
this way the people will spend again,etc....
...again : FOLLOW THE MONEY _
 
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The author spends and awful lot of time changing the goal posts. The 308 isnt capable past 250 yds, then at the end of the article it says, "Go ahead, love your .308s. Use them hard. Within 300 yards or so, they’ll make you proud every time. Just don’t ask them to do something they’re unsuitable for." In between he does the math for an 800yd shot but when talking about the 300 Weatherby Mag says it was making 500 yd shots blah blah.
Honestly I don't think this guy knew what his point was other than to say that 300 Win Mag>308 at 800yds...no shit Sherlock.
Typically if someone has to ask, "is X caliber enough at Y range." the answer is probably no, either because of the cartridges limitations or the shooters, generally the later. I don't take a lot of long shots, I'm from the part of MT where you are more likely to take an elk at 50ft than 500yds. But when I do go out on the plains I do so with confidence in my 308 (although to be honest its usually a 30-06...because habits).
 
Why Guns and Ammo HATES the .308

I remember, back thirty years ago, when a well-respected gun writer and trainer who loved the .45 and the .308 signed-on with a well known shooting publication.

Reportedly that publication promptly sent him a list of 'bad' words that he was not supposed to use in his reviews.

One wouldn't want a publication review to get in the way of selling new guns and cartridges, because doing that might upset the sponsors.
 
I guess I've been lucky 40 years of hunting and several great animals, and all the while using a 308...I must be a fluke, the exception to the rule ... maybe I need a 900 magnum.
 
"Outside 250 yards, however, performance becomes questionable"

Article lost me right here, that's a ridiculous statement.


here's another gem: "The .30-06 and .270 both have long necks ideal for use with heavy-for-caliber, aerodynamic bullets ..." There are repeated statements that the neck on the .308 is too short. But in the next breath, the .300 Win Mag is extolled as being better capable of shooting the long bullets. Maybe I'm way off here, but the neck on my .300 Win Mag cartridges is VERY short.
 
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Niles Coyote said:
If were going to impose a shooting cap of 250 yards Guns & Ammo, one would be well served with nothing more than a 223 ;)
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Yes. I'm always amused when it is announced that big boomers are needed to kill deer. My experience is that a diminutive .250 savage has the uncanny knack of killing them every time.
 
Over the last 35 years as a professional hunting guide I have had quite a few professional writers in my camps.
A few of the professional writers were excellent hunters and truly knew their stuff. A few were total greenhorns that knew how to write and talk the talk but had no real life hunting experience.

Just because a guy is a big time writer does not mean his opinion is based on first hand expearance.

I have personally watched over 7,000 big game animals die from gunshots. The .308 is a fine hunting round for game the size of caribou and capable of clean kills farther than the average hunter will ever shoot.

I will prefer a client on a sheep or caribou hunt who is using a .308 that he or she can shoot well over a client who is an average shot using a 300 mag.
 
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Im no expert but I just scrolled through after reading the original post and I saw A LOT of trophy animals. Seems like G&A are just haters. You can probably figure my cartridge of choice by my name but I'm no hater. I know there are guys out there that can group tighter at 5oo with a 308 than I could at 300 with my 300wm.
 
pawprint2 said:
I wonder if any game was harvested in the US, with firearms, prior to the development of the 300 Win Mag? I've read numerous stories regarding the buffalo (bison) hunts in the old west, I guess most of those stories were wrong. Thanks guns and ammo for setting me and everyone else straight on the subject.
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Hunting in the US prior to the development of the .300 Win Mag is actually a lie perpetuated by the NRA and various other hunting organizations to delude the AMerican public into thinking that we have a proud and hallowed tradition of hunting. In reality, no game was successfully or humanly taken in North America before the .300 Win Mag's development as the energy of the cartridges up to that point was not sufficient. :)

My buddy about shit himself five years ago when I purchased a .25-06 for hunting whitetail deer in PA. He actually asked me if I really thought that was enough rifle to take a deer. Seriously.

As to the .308 and it's effectiveness. Look at ballistics and compare it to the good-old .30-06. There really isn't that large of a gap in ballistics.

To the OP, your first mistake is reading that poor excuse for a gun magazine. I think I gave up on Guns in Ammo in the 8th grade, when I realized I knew more about the subject topic than the writers.
 
On the other end of the spectrum, you have DB's that write an article like this:
» Homeland Security to Purchase 141,000 Rounds of Sniper Ammo Alex Jones' Infowars: There's a war on for your mind!

My favorite quotes of the article are:
"According to Speer Reloading Manual Number 13, the .308 165 grain has the highest (ballistic) coefficient of any hunting rifle.”
&
"The federal agency will pay around $1.20 for each round, when a lower grain round could be acquired for around a quarter of the price."
 
G&A is a gun rag (like all the others)that will speak with the dollar they are paid, always have been always will be. Who in the gun rag field will have the balls to tell it like it is, no one that's who. They are about selling you what the mfgs conj-er up, as the latest and greatest wiz-bang gizmo be it ammo or weapon that will make you a super hunter or marksman if you only buy, what they are hawking that issue.

Just another sales platform that the sheep to fall for.
 
Lowlight himself declared the 308 as inferior in his Sniper's Hide Cup threads.
 
There is nothing living on this rock that can not be killed with a .308win by a person that has any type of half assed field craft, or hunting ability.
Is it the best for reaching past 800yds on live targets no it's not, but tell me what is living you need to kill past 800yds that while using proper field-craft you can not get within?
For a one do it all, from subsonic's to punching armor, it has been trucking right along sense it came into being.
 
I am a little offended at the guys article. When I was a young kid I remember being paired with a Marine in one of the individual matches at Camp Perry Ohio. Wind was blowing like crazy. I don't even remember my score, but the Marine shot a perfect score at 600 yards and at least 13 X with a National Match M14 in .308. Iron sights, and the group was about the size of a grape fruit. If you were the enemy and he hit you in the knee, it was only because he wanted to hit you in the knee.
 
Being stuck on a ship floating around Asia and the middle east for the last several months, practically without internet, I've read a LOT of gun magazines (guys get them sent in care packages or buy them at each stop). I have found that I was much better off when I just looked at the pictures....
 
I would have to admit as a kid I studied ballistics of factory loaded ammo in every caliber loaded. It just always interest me. By paper the 308 with hunting ammo wasn't very impressive. My daddy has never owned and said he never would also for the same reason even though he said the people he knew that had one had excellent luck hunting. Skip to today, I pick my 308 over any rifle in my safe, and my daddys opinion has made a 180*, and so have many friends who have seen the results and distances game has been taken with it. My magnums are more capable at any range, but I can drive the hell out of my 308.

Sounds like someone who sits behind a desk reading & writing a lot more than he shoots, and from his article and obviously lack of experience by his article he shouldn't shoot any caliber at game past 250yds and that's just being nice.
 
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I have taken whitetails for thirty years. First with a 30-30, then a 30-06, then a 308, now a 6.5 Creedmoor. One thing I noticed over the years is if you know your rifle and practice good placement they will fall. I limited my 30-30 shots to under 200, 30-06 and 308 to around 300, and maybe stretch to 350 with the Creedmoor. I have lost 2 deer in that time period. Most were DRT. If I were hunting Cape buffalo I would try something else, but its not needed for deer.
By the way, all my shooting is from a rest in a stand.
The guy who wrote the article in that picture looks like he has never seen the woods or a good bean field!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
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My good friend from Michigan with a dandy mule deer buck he took with his GAP .308 at 400 meters.

lasthunt002.jpg


My lightweight GAP .308 was on loan to this gal for her very first mule deer buck. She also killed a cow elk with it earlier in the day at 460 meters.


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One of my best black bears taken with the same rifle right at dark in Montana a few years ago, at 450 meters.
 
Not only is the .308 a good hunting cartridge, but it is a great overall cartridge to select when getting into long range shooting. Readily available (all things considered right now still), a plethora of components to choose from, easy on barrel life, fairly low-recoiling, decent BC and SD bullets for hunting, lighter on the wallet, tons of load data available, and predictable at range and in wind if you do your homework. It is literally the small bock chevy of the cartridge world. Buy it, run it, do well with it, and by the time you are ready to upgrade you have the experience and knowledge behind you to get exactly what you want.

Aside from my .30-06 that was my first rifle/gun purchase as a kid, my go-to rifle for shooting all things bigger than a coyote is a DPMS LR308B. Wonder how badly the author would balk at an 18" .308 gas gun? Surely past 50 meters I am underpowered.
 
That article is comparing .308 ballistics to magnum cartridges. Seems legit.

Of course the .308 has limitations, as any caliber does, any responsible/ethical hunter wouldnt exceed those limitations. However the .308's limitations arent contained to 300 yards.

The closing line made me chuckle.

"Go ahead, love your .308s. Use them hard. Within 300 yards or so, they’ll make you proud every time. Just don’t ask them to do something they’re unsuitable for."
 
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-R- said:
The closing line made me chuckle.

"Go ahead, love your .308s. Use them hard. Within 300 yards or so, they’ll make you proud every time. Just don’t ask them to do something they’re unsuitable for."
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I regularly ask my .308 to do things it is unsuited for, I just don't ask it to do things it is incapable of doing. ?
 
Spoke in inches not Mil or MOA. I understand he is writing to guys that don't know an MOA from a Mil but that's what parenthesis are for.

300 yards aint shit for a .308, hell 500 yards isn't either.

A 270 is a better distance cartridge? He can come to my range with a 270, I'll put my 308 barrel back on my rifle, and we'll just see about that.

I agree he is following the money. It shows the lack of spine G & A has now, since experienced marksmen (SH members) have called BS on their site, and their comments have been deleted, immediately. That's chicken shit!
 
Suffice it to say that while I'm not the biggest .308/7.62x51 fan the writer gets sooooo much wrong in his article that it has no credibility. Drive on .308 fans, and continue to enjoy the cartridge for it's better aspects.
 
I have rifles in 35 Whelen, 357 Magnum, 45-70, 308, 30-06, 300 WM, and my favorite is the little Marlin in 357 Magnum.
Plenty nuff for white tail. I hunt on my own place, and the woods are so thick, 50 yards is long range.
Otherwise, I would choose the 308, and limit my shots to 200 yards or less. Probably less, because I don't shoot as good as I used to.
 
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