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Why is a .308 bruising my shoulder???

S

SomeOtherGuy

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Full Member
Minuteman
Feb 29, 2012
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UP Michigan
OK, this is the STUPID questions forum, I am using the option to post a stupid question.

I have a couple of semi precision bolt action .308s. Currently shooting a Remington 700 with a 20" heavy barrel, and a Sig SSG-3000 with the factory 24" heavy barrel. The 700 weighs about 10lbs with scope and stock, the SSG probably 13+. Fairly heavy guns. Both in .308 Winchester, shooting factory ammo - including 150gr FMJ, 168gr BTHP, and 175gr FGMM. All typical stuff, nothing atomic in there. I previously had a 26" Savage 10 with a B&C stock and had the identical problem.

When I shoot these rifles from prone off a Harris bipod I routinely get significant shoulder bruising and soreness, right on my collarbone area a couple inches inward from the shoulder joint. I am doing my best to use correct prone position and technique and load the bipod. This has been an issue for me for over a year.

In general I do not bruise easily and I can shoot several 12ga slugs out of a typical 6.5lb 12ga shotgun without significant bruising. I regularly shoot .308 rifles without a bipod and don't usually have any issues. I have no health issues.

I have to think something is wrong with my technique to be getting bruising from an ordinary .308 out of a fairly heavy gun. Can anyone tell me what I'm doing wrong and how to fix it?
 
Normal. I get it all the time from multiple rifles.
 
A couple things come to mind…

1. Make sure the rifle is against your shoulder and not slamming or jumping back.

2. A good recoil pad can make a lot of difference. I personally like the one inch Limbsaver pads, they seem to be a little softer than some of the others.

3. May want to adjust where the rifle is positioned on your shoulder. Make sure it is in the pocket of your shoulder on not bouncing off your collar bone. It's one thing to have a slightly sore shoulder after a long day of shooting, 50+ rounds, but IMO you should not have bruising or be as sore as your post indicates. I have, in the past, rested the rifle either too much on the shoulder on too much on the collar bone and it is painful after just one or two shots. Maybe this is what is happening to you also?

4. Not sure about your age or build, but, if you are able, lifting weights or even doing push-ups will build up some shoulder muscle and provide some additional padding.

5. If none of the above work, consider something like a Past recoil pad that is worn on your shoulder. This could add an undesirable variable regarding length of pull, eye relief, and should either be worn all the time or none of the time to maintain consistency.

6. Consider installing a muzzle brake, but this seems like the least desirable option, and most expensive.
 
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I would say gun fit as a first guess. Either length of pull or cast or both.

I have had two, other than stock, identical shotguns, one of which I could shoot all week long with never so much as a mark and the other would leave me with a big ol' bruise after a single 25 shot round of trap. The difference between the two was about 1/4", in and out, where the stock put the butt pad and less than 1/4 of drop at the heel of the stock.

Clear your gun. Now clear it again and remove the bolt. Sight down the top of the barrel to the middle of the receiver and along that line see which side of the line the top of your butt pad lies. If it is to your left of the centerline of the barrel your gun is cast off and, for a right hand shooter, that is a good thing. If it is to the right, it is cast on and that will cause cheek slap and, if you are being effected by that, a tendency to hold the gun away from your face and probably shoulder. Zero cast is not ideal, a little cast off is actually helpful.

Too high a scope and comb can sometimes cause this as well. If you are long of neck, it can create issues with the way your gun is fit in your shoulder pocket. A little more length of pull can help with that.
 
Thanks, I appreciate all the replies so far. To answer some questions and add some info, I'm 38, fairly big and muscular (I lift 50lbs all the time and 100lbs about once a week - not iron weights, but sacks of animal feed, tractor implements and parts, and my kids), so I don't think strength is the issue. Sounds like my stocks may be a little short and I would like to try having the buttpad higher. None of my current stocks are adjustable but I've been eyeing some chassis systems so this may be another reason to go that route.

I posted this last night after getting sore from just 17rds of .308 (sighting in two scopes), my shoulder was red but I have not actually developed bruising. I'm also wondering (feeling stupid) if some of this may be just from wearing nothing more than a t-shirt as my typical shooting outfit. May try something that's stiffer material or that has a pad in the shoulder.

Thanks again for the helpful comments.
 
Keep shooting. That area will toughen up. I can tell when i haven't shot for a few weeks but when shooting more it becomes less. There is a red mark there after shooting. Don't put anything in there that won't be there when you normally shoot.

Don't pull the rifle into your shoulder. You don't want to introduce muscle force. The top 1/3 of the butt pad will sit on the collarbone area between shoulder and neck. That's the pocket it sits in. No getting around it. A thicker, softer buttpad might help.
 
Agree with a better recoil pad, I had the one on my 5r changed out from the 1/2" piece of hard rubber to a Pachmayr Decelerator and it helped out a bunch.
 
I shoot everything with a brake now so when I go to a caliber without one I usually end up bruised. Especially on a cheap stock with bad fit and a bad recoil pad. I wouldn't worry too much. And the prone position puts all recoil straight into your collarbone. No upright bench position for your body to give a little or offhand shotgun shooting to let the recoil move your body, just straight full impact with no body movement, it can bruise.
 
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SomeOtherGuy said:
I'm also wondering (feeling stupid) if some of this may be just from wearing nothing more than a t-shirt as my typical shooting outfit.
Click to expand...

When warmer weather comes around and I'm back to shooting in T-shirts (when not wearing a shooting jacket for competition), I expect to be bruised by several of my rifles. I just accept it as a badge of distinction, though my marks don't usually hurt except maybe after shooting a good recoiling rifle with a solid butt plate.
 
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Thanks for posting your question. I had the same concern. I too recently bought a Sig SSG 3000. My previous experience was with a .223 Colt which was a lot of fun. The first time at the range with my new rifle was very discouraging because I did not enjoy shooting my .308. It seemed that no matter how I positioned the rifle, it "punished me". After about 4 trips to the range and using about 5 different types of "store bought ammo", I decided that the ammo had a lot to do with my neophyte experience. Some ammo was great - no harsh recoil but others were punishing my shoulder (sharp recoil). I'm still new to this caliber but I suspect that overall, my problem is the positioning of the butt to my shoulder and the pressure I pulled back into my shoulder during firing. Besides my fear of just being a wuss, I thought maybe a better pad would help. I have yet to experiment with softer pads. I look forward to more responses to your question in the hopes that I do not have to exercise in order to build up my muscles in my shoulder.
 
I am gonna be the one to disagree here. I don't get a sore shoulder pretty much at all. One
thing notice is if you're too low in prone you are forcing the buttstock higher on the pocket of
the shoulder. This tends to create that bruising and tenderness. Get
yourself a rear bag that brings you a touch higher and rolls your shoulder up a
little bringing your buttstock down a touch. Once you have a rear bag that builds your position correctly you use your bipod legs for height to get you as close as possible to your npa on target. It's not always possible but consistency in your position at your shoulder is critical.
 
Exactly. When I left the bench and went prone the last thing I did was go up one notch on my Harris bipod. Should have been the first thing. Would have saved a lot of bruising.

Another factor could be your cheek weld and eye relief. If you are getting a stiff neck from having to bend your neck so far back then stop, reset your scope position and cheek weld height in a position that doesn't cause neck pain.

Adjust the bipod height at this point if you need it to keep your neck pain free. If you are going to shoot longer distances keep in mind the butt will need to go much lower as the barrel goes higher.

Since doing all this is going to require that you reset your zero it might be a good time to add a Limbsaver on the butt for some insurance. This will add about an inch or so to the butt length which will impact your eye relief. So be prepared to spend an hour or so on the floor and making adjustments.

All this compliments what KE said about getting higher and squares the butt in your shoulder pocket.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
Cause you're a pussy! :)

All kidding aside, just as Rob pointed out it's kind of a common thing with 308's. the more you shoot the tougher your skin will get. If I shoot 2-3 days in a row i'll notice it start to bruise a little. over the winter when i'm not shooting nearly as much I really notice it.

make sure your rifle fits you properly and you have a correct length of pull.
 
OP,

You must fit yourself to the gun or fit the gun to you, or recoil may cause bruising. This is not acceptable as such injury can cause great damage to the body. You begin by bringing the stock to the head, not head to stock. Then, push the butt into the pocket formed in the shoulder. Next, you will realize, if you do not have an adjustable butt, in addition to an adjustable comb, in the prone position, when comb is adjusted for a good eyeball to eyepiece relationship, the butt will be too low. When this is the case, it's going to hurt you, since the recoil is concentrated at the top of the butt plate. In the standing position, without adjustable butt, the butt will be too high, and this will concentrate recoil to the bottom of the butt, again making bruising most certain, unless you have accommodated such concentration of recoil with sweat shirt and a shoot jacket.

One more thing, if you are shooting long strings, such as in NRA LR, you might want to consider buying a rifle chambered for a lower recoiling and higher BC round, fitted with a stock such as found on B98. This will help you to get predictable recoil resistance from shot to shot, as well as greater resistance to wind, and thus, more accuracy at LR.

At any rate, making the butt to shoulder and stockweld the same from shot to shot, which is discerned by comfort, is important to good shooting since it better assures consistent sight alignment, as well as recoil resistance.
 
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I have the same Sig 3000 and unlike heavy weapons there is absolutely no bruising or black and blue marks. You say you are in good health but maybe your platelet level is low or have I.T.P.? I can shoot the 308 all day with zero bruising and it is not like the 458 Mag which does leave a mark. By the way, the Sig 3000 has an effective muzzle brake.

Even the very effective muzzle brake on my 82A1 in 50 cal does not leave bruising. I did see a video on You Tube where some young kids thought it would be fun to try the 82A1 without the muzzle brake. It looked like he broke a collar bone by the kids reaction as Ron Barrett says will happen if you do not use the brake.
 
He is not bruising actually as he says in his second post : "my shoulder was red but I have not actually developed bruising". A red mark where the top third of the buttpad lays on the collar bone isn't uncommon.
 
Alright I'll be the first to mention it... Loose the 308 - rebarrel to 6 or 6.5mm, add a muzzle brake, then sing the songs of comfort and victory!!!
 
Rob01 said:
Don't pull the rifle into your shoulder. You don't want to introduce muscle force.
Click to expand...

I thought the shooting hand was supposed to pull the stock into the shoulder?
 
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Barn Side said:
I thought the non shooting hand was supposed to pull the stock into the shoulder?
Click to expand...

Only enough pressure is exerted on the stock with the non firing hand to control the rifle. But, as the position is being built, the non firing hand and/or the firing hand, whether at that time on grip or butt, can be used to pull the rifle into the pocket formed in the shoulder. Once the position has been built, relaxation into bone/artificial support will maintain the butt to shoulder relationship without need to exert more than a firm handshake pressure on either the grip or fore end.
 
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Barn Side said:
I thought the non shooting hand was supposed to pull the stock into the shoulder?
Click to expand...

I spent a few minutes with Rob at the range the other day and asked him about this. I have been watching the training videos here and it seems there are slightly different thoughts on this. After watching ROB shoot I'm going with "no muscle" influence. Now if I can load the bipod a little by starting high and coming into position I will do that. I am shooting a 13lb 308 rifle right now and recoil is an issue for me but I'm getting better with practice. I do think the training videos here are great and Lowlight does promote loading the bipod to get the butt firmly into the shoulder if I understand the videos correctly.

David E.

Edit: What Sterling Shooter said!

Louisville was my stomping grounds!
 
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Barn Side said:
I thought the non shooting hand was supposed to pull the stock into the shoulder?
Click to expand...


Been pretty much covered but if you wanted any slight pressure into your shoulder you should use a light lean or load on the bipod. The non shooting hand should be gripping the rear bag and squeezing to adjust height but not putting any muscle force into the rifle.

Do the test yourself. Lay behind the rifle and aim at a target and pull the rifle into your shoulder and see how long your sight picture stays steady. Once the muscle start to fatigue it will start shaking. Using no muscle force with the bipod and a rear bag you can lay there indefinitely.
 
SomeOtherGuy said:
OK, this is the STUPID questions forum, I am using the option to post a stupid question.

I have a couple of semi precision bolt action .308s. Currently shooting a Remington 700 with a 20" heavy barrel, and a Sig SSG-3000 with the factory 24" heavy barrel. The 700 weighs about 10lbs with scope and stock, the SSG probably 13+. Fairly heavy guns. Both in .308 Winchester, shooting factory ammo - including 150gr FMJ, 168gr BTHP, and 175gr FGMM. All typical stuff, nothing atomic in there. I previously had a 26" Savage 10 with a B&C stock and had the identical problem.

When I shoot these rifles from prone off a Harris bipod I routinely get significant shoulder bruising and soreness, right on my collarbone area a couple inches inward from the shoulder joint. I am doing my best to use correct prone position and technique and load the bipod. This has been an issue for me for over a year.

In general I do not bruise easily and I can shoot several 12ga slugs out of a typical 6.5lb 12ga shotgun without significant bruising. I regularly shoot .308 rifles without a bipod and don't usually have any issues. I have no health issues.

I have to think something is wrong with my technique to be getting bruising from an ordinary .308 out of a fairly heavy gun. Can anyone tell me what I'm doing wrong and how to fix it?
Click to expand...
Everyone's body if different, when it comes to bruising. Also bruising is normal in the human body. You do say that you can shoot a 12ga without significant bruising, but you still bruised. Most bruises form when small blood vessels (capillaries) near the skin's surface are broken by the impact of a blow or injury — often on the arms or legs. When this happens, blood leaks out of the vessels and initially appears as a black-and-blue mark. Eventually your body reabsorbs the blood, and the mark disappears. You can eliminate the problems of bruising with recoil mitigation/reduction by just adding a muzzle brake like the APA Little Bastard Etc and it will be take care of the bruising. Also you can put on a high quality recoil pad like a Limbsaver Etc. You are not doing anything wrong, but a muzzle brake and a recoil pad would help to stop the bruising (The Fix).You can look up capillaries/platelets/blood clotting. I'm not sure how old you are, but this web site should help explain bruising and make it more understandable. But in relationship to each other, young person vs old person this would still apply to bruising. : Easy bruising: Common as you age - Mayo Clinic
 
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Thanks for the replies.

Sorry I stuffed up I meant the shooting hand

Rob01 I thought you got behind the rifle using the toes to make contact and load the bipod, then use the firing had to apply firm pressure straight back to the shoulder as it aids in controlling recoil.

What do you do for prone unsupported? Or is ok then?
 
You can use the toes slightly but you shouldn't be pushing into it enough to be using any muscles. I wouldn't recommend pushing the stock into the shoulder. Again muscles to tire and start t shake.

I lay behind the rifle with my non shooting hand on my rear bag and butt into my shoulder pocket. I don't load the bipod or push forward. Just the weight of my body behind the rifle holds it in place. The butt is firm into the pocket though as you don;t want any space so the rifle slams into you.
 
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Thanks for the reply.

Rob01 it seems you and Lowlight have a different technique as he speaks of loading the bipod:
Loading the Bipod - YouTube

I may have misinterpreted post #40 of Lowlight’s in this thread: http://www.snipershide.com/shooting...-npoa-change-after-recoil-advice-request.html, but I thought it meant that the firing hand had to apply firm pressure straight back to the shoulder.

'Driving the rifle is what is necessary especially when moving from position to position -- as already discussed. It is a different animal than anything you are discussing. The muscular tension is only, and I mean only in the shooting arms bicep everything else is relaxed'.

Orkan’s zero force firing position seems like your technique: Primal Rights ? Primal Rights -- Precision Rifle Marksmanship - Zero Force Firing Position

Rob01 what you say about not pulling the rifle into the shoulder seems logical for when using a bipod and rear bag, but how about when prone unsupported?
 
Barn Side said:
Thanks for the reply.

Rob01 it seems you and Lowlight have a different technique as he speaks of loading the bipod:
Loading the Bipod - YouTube

I may have misinterpreted post #40 of Lowlight’s in this thread: http://www.snipershide.com/shooting...-npoa-change-after-recoil-advice-request.html, but I thought it meant that the firing hand had to apply firm pressure straight back to the shoulder.

'Driving the rifle is what is necessary especially when moving from position to position -- as already discussed. It is a different animal than anything you are discussing. The muscular tension is only, and I mean only in the shooting arms bicep everything else is relaxed'.

Orkan’s zero force firing position seems like your technique: Primal Rights ? Primal Rights -- Precision Rifle Marksmanship - Zero Force Firing Position

Rob01 what you say about not pulling the rifle into the shoulder seems logical for when using a bipod and rear bag, but how about when prone unsupported?
Click to expand...

Yes some feel better loading a bipod and some people don't understand that it's a small pressure and that's why you get people with the need for claw bipod feet. If you are pushing so much on the rifle that it's walking then you are pushing too much. My body weight is all the pressure that is needed to hold the rifle in my shoulder pocket. You might need more if you are having problems. It's hard to diagnose shooter techniques on a forum and not seeing the shooter.

As for pulling the rifle into the shoulder, yes we might have different techniques as I don't use any pulling force with my shooting hand bicep. My actual shooting hand is lightly gripping the stock. No pulling back. I can't speak for Lowlight so maybe you should ask him, to explain his method.

As for slung up unsupported, when you adjust the sling it will give a natural pressure pushing the rifle into the pocket. Some have it so tight you need to push the butt into the pocket when getting into position so there is no muscle use when slung up to hold the butt into the pocket. You should be using the skeleton to hold you when slung and unsupported. Not muscles.
 
A muzzle brake should do it. Some clamp on muzzle brakes are inexpensive and reduce 60% of the recoil. I know that company Witt Machine sells them for i think 89 bucks. If you wanted to spend a good amount of money you could even get a threaded one, but you would have to have a gunsmith thread your barrel and it can get pretty expensive. I think a clamp on is the way to go. I have had no problems with mine.
 
Start with a .22 and work your way up. Stay away from shouldering full auto .50s...


:)
 
I had no idea this thread generated so many more responses. Many thanks for the helpful comments.

At the match after I posted this, I had a very loose grip on the gun and tried to improve my form, and I had hardly any discomfort in my shoulder afterward. I'm pretty sure I'm not doing "free recoil" but was fairly loose. For me this is counterintuitive - I always thought you need to pull rifles heavily into your shoulder - but it seems to work, and be what many are recommending. I also shot my personal best score, by a LOT, so it seems fine on accuracy too.

skeeterIII said:
I have the same Sig 3000 and unlike heavy weapons there is absolutely no bruising or black and blue marks. You say you are in good health but maybe your platelet level is low or have I.T.P.? I can shoot the 308 all day with zero bruising and it is not like the 458 Mag which does leave a mark. By the way, the Sig 3000 has an effective muzzle brake.
Even the very effective muzzle brake on my 82A1 in 50 cal does not leave bruising. I did see a video on You Tube where some young kids thought it would be fun to try the 82A1 without the muzzle brake. It looked like he broke a collar bone by the kids reaction as Ron Barrett says will happen if you do not use the brake.
Click to expand...

My 2014 production SSG-3000 has a pure flash hider on the muzzle, which I doubt does anything for recoil. Being a 12lb or so gun with scope it should be soft recoiling, but the buttpad is very hard rubber. I've found it more tiring to shoot than my previous savage in a B&C stock, but in all other respects I like it much better. I think this is really a lot about length of pull, fit, and buttpad material. And I have all of the LOP spacers installed on mine.

I've shot a braked .50 BMG with no discomfort at all. Amazing how well those brakes work. As I stated once and Rob has repeatedly quoted, I do not get actual bruising from the .308, just redness and discomfort. Which, again, is now minimized after changing my technique. It's been a couple years since I was shooting 12ga slugs and I can't remember if I got actual bruising, but given that the shotgun I used weighs 6.5lbs, I may have. I once had a PTR-91 .308 which did bruise me, but again ergonomics and rock hard buttstock material come into play, and I think that one may have had an issue with roller size or gap causing it to increase recoil beyond what it should have been.
 
I shoot too much to risk getting a flinch from recoil, buy a brake. I buy my brakes from the Harrells.

Muzzle Brakes

The 4-port brake reduces the dirt when prone. I have the radial brake on two guns and the tactical brake on one. $30 and $45 respectively. Nobody makes a better brake but you can sure spend a lot more. It will cost you $75 or $100 to get the thing installed and you get a genuine 20% recoil reduction.

Newtons law says for every action there is an opposite and equal reaction. When you shoot the bullet and powder gas in the action, the recoil is the reaction. I shoot 308. 175 grain bullets and 42 grains of powder. 217 grains of action (175 + 42). If the brake can make the powder gas go sideways, then you reduce the action (and the reaction) by about 20 percent. In my opinion, any advertising that promises more than (powder/(powder + bullet)) * 100 is trying to blow smoke up your a$$.

All of the other suggestions are great and you should use them but the only way to actually reduce recoil is to reduce the combined energy of the powder gas and the bullet (brake plus lots of other ways) or make the gun heavier.
 
Sounds like you got the problem solved.

One thing I do...when I don't have a rear bag and shooting off of a bipod, I take my off hand and "triangulate" a support under my shooting shoulder (RH). LH elbow forward, LH forearm diagonally back and up to the RH shoulder. I can then take my left index finger and hook it behind the tip of the buttstock to assist with recoil. Body size and gun fit can work great or totally debunk this as something you can use.
 
Interesting to see this thread still has legs. Anyway, I've shot several matches and practice sessions since July, with what I consider a very loose form, not pulling the gun into my shoulder much if at all, and I'm having no discomfort, minimal skin irritation (a little but not much), and generally am quite happy. Just totally counter intuitive, when I was always told to pull the gun tightly into your shoulder pocket or else it would hurt you.
 
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