It seems most top shooters and serious hobbyists, at least of SH, seem to be using custom actions. I was curious as to why those aren't being made straight pull if supposedly faster. Is there a major con to the design that drives custom makers to still use more traditional design?
- Thread starter longrange772
- Start date
I cannot answer your question but will offer one observation.
I watched this video today and focused on the muzzle device.
It is interesting to see how much movement is transferred to the muzzle when the straight pull is cycled.
I wonder if this is more or less than what a traditional bolt action would do.
I'll also opine that, if straight pull added a significant advantage, it would be winning matches and be more well known than it is.
-Stan
I watched this video today and focused on the muzzle device.
It is interesting to see how much movement is transferred to the muzzle when the straight pull is cycled.
I wonder if this is more or less than what a traditional bolt action would do.
I'll also opine that, if straight pull added a significant advantage, it would be winning matches and be more well known than it is.
-Stan
I have an Impulse Precision I'm doing a review on and at first it moved around significantly while running the bolt but it has smoothed out some.
There are things about the Impulse action that are cool but as long range shooting goes it's not world changing.
There are things about the Impulse action that are cool but as long range shooting goes it's not world changing.
Now that MDT are making their Chassis to suit, my guess is that we may well see an uptake in the numbers used in PRS style shoots.
IMHO, the locking configuration used by Savage for the impulse is far superior to say Beretta's latest SP offering so mechanically, I can't see any down side to the impulse at all. They can use AICS mags which by most accounts I've heard, they feed perfectly well from.
They have a robust initial extraction system & are smooth once worn in.
I can see no reason why they won't take more market share in the future. Matter of fact, I've been considering an impulse myself.
I have some observations that. I have a K31 that I have worked up handloads for trying to improve accuracy. As we know some tricks include minimal shoulder bump, seating bullets longer and even trimming necks longer. I found that all of these techniques can keep the k31 action from going fully into battery by an imperceptible amount, which prevents firing. You can't see or feel the difference but the gun won't fire. It's an important safety feature to prevent out-of-battery fire turning your head into a canoe. But that's why I stopped load development. Found a respectable load and gave up on ever finding GP11.
I've run my blaser Tac 2 at some PRS matches and have had no issues with muzzle control.
In my thermal scope videos, I stay right on target with my savage predator when cycling the action too.
Most American shooters have a lot of money invested in their turn bolt rifles and have back up turn bolt rifles too, so their not going to add a different style rifle to the stable unless they change all of their rifles.
Until recently there were no budget priced 10 round magazine fed straight pull options available for shooters in competition calibers , but now that savage has entered the ring I'm sure you'll be seeing some out there in matches.
SJC
In my thermal scope videos, I stay right on target with my savage predator when cycling the action too.
Most American shooters have a lot of money invested in their turn bolt rifles and have back up turn bolt rifles too, so their not going to add a different style rifle to the stable unless they change all of their rifles.
Until recently there were no budget priced 10 round magazine fed straight pull options available for shooters in competition calibers , but now that savage has entered the ring I'm sure you'll be seeing some out there in matches.
SJC
I still love my Browning T-Bolt. It’s one of the older ones with the single stack magazines, not the newer rotary mag ones. picked it up for a song because the previous owner completely polished the blueing off (badly).
I think there are a couple factors:
1. the speed differences between different bolt actions are GREATLY over stated... and not particularly relevant.
2. economics, R700 standard: cost, reliability/safety and aftermarket support matter.
A lot of timed rifle shooting is GO/NOGO, there isn't much market for saving less than .5 second per shot because you run a straight pull (or .1 s per shot because you run a 60 deg vs. 90 deg action) when the split times themselves are irrelevant. That being said, if someone made a robust, straight pull action that stood up well to abuse, accepted pre-fit barrels, dropped into R700 chassis and took R700 triggers, at a reasonable price point, people would run it.
1. the speed differences between different bolt actions are GREATLY over stated... and not particularly relevant.
2. economics, R700 standard: cost, reliability/safety and aftermarket support matter.
A lot of timed rifle shooting is GO/NOGO, there isn't much market for saving less than .5 second per shot because you run a straight pull (or .1 s per shot because you run a 60 deg vs. 90 deg action) when the split times themselves are irrelevant. That being said, if someone made a robust, straight pull action that stood up well to abuse, accepted pre-fit barrels, dropped into R700 chassis and took R700 triggers, at a reasonable price point, people would run it.
I am totally not an expert but I think it might boil down to a matter of ergonomics. Some people might be more comfortable with the straight pull, especially if you have a big optic on there. Less likely to drag a knuckle on the throw lever of the zoom ring.
My Mossbergs have 2 lug 90 degree bolts. The Patriot is actually a little loose but at close range hunting, that is no big deal. The TC Compass II has a Mauser action and bolt-mounted three position lever safety that I actually prefer to the tang safeties with two positions. Compass II has a 3 lug bolt with 60 degree through, totally comfortable yet still a push feed.
When I first got it, it was a bit stiff. So, I just sat and worked it for an hour-ish for a few nights. It would be a few weeks before I had time to go to the range. Also, when I first get a new rifle, I drag the snake through it. And then I put gun grease on the bolt and its lugs.
What is the most accurate? 3 lugs or more with controlled feed? And would that effect ejection times? Again, I am a complete moron but would a straight pull be better for faster competitions at closer range?
Then, again, as was mentioned here, the operation of it might be enough different that one just stays comfortable with what you have.
My Mossbergs have 2 lug 90 degree bolts. The Patriot is actually a little loose but at close range hunting, that is no big deal. The TC Compass II has a Mauser action and bolt-mounted three position lever safety that I actually prefer to the tang safeties with two positions. Compass II has a 3 lug bolt with 60 degree through, totally comfortable yet still a push feed.
When I first got it, it was a bit stiff. So, I just sat and worked it for an hour-ish for a few nights. It would be a few weeks before I had time to go to the range. Also, when I first get a new rifle, I drag the snake through it. And then I put gun grease on the bolt and its lugs.
What is the most accurate? 3 lugs or more with controlled feed? And would that effect ejection times? Again, I am a complete moron but would a straight pull be better for faster competitions at closer range?
Then, again, as was mentioned here, the operation of it might be enough different that one just stays comfortable with what you have.
Most folks learn to shoot using a turnbolt rimfire; so it's ingrained into them from the get-go.
Turnbolt rifles have also been the customary and reasonable approach to shooting precision aimed fire; so it's essentially a matter of tradition.
Straight pull actions have long been the exception rather than the rule.
None of the above responses should be compelling, but they do have the advantage of beating the straight pull operation to the punch, as it were.
The fascination with watching the muzzle device during action operation eludes me. All actions result in the sight picture being disrupted through the sights as firing proceeds, so I can't really grasp the importance of the practice. We know in advance that the sight picture needs to be rebuilt for each shot; so we do it, and move on.
My own background has the long range precision discipline occupying the greatest part of my experience, and it often amuses me how little a deflection from a perfect sight picture actually occurs when adjusting for range between 100yd and 1000yd. I suspect that very few of us even give that much thought. Typically, the adjustment ranges between 20MOA and 30MOA. When one recognizes that even if it's the larger amount, it still totals no more than 1/2 of a degree of sight alignment alteration relative to the bore centerline.
I would be hard challenged to spot that difference at a glance.
What's more accurate? Accuracy is a matter of motion during firing, and should be the same whether shooting any popular action. Bolt operation takes place well outside the brief duration during which the shot ignites and the bullet exits. The motion I'm describing takes place during when the chamber pressure builds and drops. If bolt and action clearances are such that parts would appear to change positional relationships, or if flex allows such motions; then accuracy is likely to become erratic. So it's about fit, and not about action type.
I would imagine that a bolt face that is properly perpendicular to the bore axis, and remains strictly so during the firing sequence, is most likely to exhibit best accuracy. This description simplifies some factors inherent in that sequence, but can be relied upon to cover the more important ones.
Greg
Turnbolt rifles have also been the customary and reasonable approach to shooting precision aimed fire; so it's essentially a matter of tradition.
Straight pull actions have long been the exception rather than the rule.
None of the above responses should be compelling, but they do have the advantage of beating the straight pull operation to the punch, as it were.
The fascination with watching the muzzle device during action operation eludes me. All actions result in the sight picture being disrupted through the sights as firing proceeds, so I can't really grasp the importance of the practice. We know in advance that the sight picture needs to be rebuilt for each shot; so we do it, and move on.
My own background has the long range precision discipline occupying the greatest part of my experience, and it often amuses me how little a deflection from a perfect sight picture actually occurs when adjusting for range between 100yd and 1000yd. I suspect that very few of us even give that much thought. Typically, the adjustment ranges between 20MOA and 30MOA. When one recognizes that even if it's the larger amount, it still totals no more than 1/2 of a degree of sight alignment alteration relative to the bore centerline.
I would be hard challenged to spot that difference at a glance.
What's more accurate? Accuracy is a matter of motion during firing, and should be the same whether shooting any popular action. Bolt operation takes place well outside the brief duration during which the shot ignites and the bullet exits. The motion I'm describing takes place during when the chamber pressure builds and drops. If bolt and action clearances are such that parts would appear to change positional relationships, or if flex allows such motions; then accuracy is likely to become erratic. So it's about fit, and not about action type.
I would imagine that a bolt face that is properly perpendicular to the bore axis, and remains strictly so during the firing sequence, is most likely to exhibit best accuracy. This description simplifies some factors inherent in that sequence, but can be relied upon to cover the more important ones.
Greg
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The OP asks an interesting question. When I’ve thought about straight-pulls I tend to wonder about why there aren’t more factory options. I settled on cost, but I never considered the lack of custom actions where cost is much less of a factor.
Here are some random tidbits that may have bearing on the matter.
I believe Germans can’t have semi-auto rifles, so for driven hunts (boars) to get the max bullets downrange they’ve settled on straight-pulls. We Yanks don’t have that limitation so have little need for straight-pulls for that sort of application.
For a typical turn-bolt action hunting scenario, there can be a bit of dirt, snow, and other debris that enters the action. Some straight-pulls (not all) seem to have more issues with being dirty. Ditto with primary extraction when cycling the bolt slowly like in target shooting.
These are my guesses. Boils down to straight-pulls not solving problems well enough for the US shooter.
Here are some random tidbits that may have bearing on the matter.
I believe Germans can’t have semi-auto rifles, so for driven hunts (boars) to get the max bullets downrange they’ve settled on straight-pulls. We Yanks don’t have that limitation so have little need for straight-pulls for that sort of application.
For a typical turn-bolt action hunting scenario, there can be a bit of dirt, snow, and other debris that enters the action. Some straight-pulls (not all) seem to have more issues with being dirty. Ditto with primary extraction when cycling the bolt slowly like in target shooting.
These are my guesses. Boils down to straight-pulls not solving problems well enough for the US shooter.
Have y’all seen how fast some people can work a normal bolt? Why bother with the more complicated mouse trap?
I agree. But I like my little 17 HMR T-bolt because it’s just cool. And someday I’ll get a Anschutz straight-pull 22 Fortner and pretend I’m in a biathlon!
Have you even seen how fast a good competitor cycles the bolt during a stage? I find it hard to bell lever that there would be any appreciable difference in end results using one style versus the other. It is extremely rare for competitions here in the states to require maximum rounds down range in a given period of time. Much more time is spent getting into position and on target for each shot than for cycling the bolt. It’s almost noise in the equation at that point.
So, as already mentioned above, there’s not enough juice from the squeeze to bother with it. If you, personally, prefer straight pull and have one, but all means run it. Comfort level with the platform used will beat out some nebulous advantage at least 9 of 10 times.
So, as already mentioned above, there’s not enough juice from the squeeze to bother with it. If you, personally, prefer straight pull and have one, but all means run it. Comfort level with the platform used will beat out some nebulous advantage at least 9 of 10 times.
My guess is it's mostly due to inertia from the "if it ain't broke don't fix it" that is prevalent in the shooting industry.
I think it'd be great to see something other than just another rem 700 based custom action come to market. Even better if it's different entirely from the turnbolt style action.
I think it'd be great to see something other than just another rem 700 based custom action come to market. Even better if it's different entirely from the turnbolt style action.
Straight pull requires a fair bit more engineering and concern about safety.
For example Blaser thought their great R93 hunting rifle was the peak of perfection.
But then after some dramatic incidents they quietly had to redesign the action almost completely and come out with the R8 instead.
The R8 is an amazing hunting rifle that is crazy safe, and performs well and has all the cool switch barrel and caliber change options and quick connect scopes and such. Except of course the barrels cost double what you can get a whole Tikka rifle for and you could get a Ruger rifle for less than the cost of a boltface / magazine change kit.
For example Blaser thought their great R93 hunting rifle was the peak of perfection.
But then after some dramatic incidents they quietly had to redesign the action almost completely and come out with the R8 instead.
The R8 is an amazing hunting rifle that is crazy safe, and performs well and has all the cool switch barrel and caliber change options and quick connect scopes and such. Except of course the barrels cost double what you can get a whole Tikka rifle for and you could get a Ruger rifle for less than the cost of a boltface / magazine change kit.
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Until the technology allows them to be super slick and low effort as well as low cost they will never replaces the prevalent actions we use now. It's a tiny group of people that "need" a fast bolt action especially here where we can own semi auto rifles.
Straight pull rifles - in depth analysis of three popular straight pulls
Fieldsports Press Website
Interesting analysis.
Also a video from the same place:
That Browning is interesting with its spring-powered bolt return.
That Browning is interesting with its spring-powered bolt return.
"Running Deer Doubles" was an Olympic shooting event from 1900 to 1960.
This event is shot on a "running deer" at 100m and the target moves 25yds in 4.7 sec. In "doubles" you then have to fire two shots in 4.7sec. Lead is app 22moa+/- depending on cartridge. X-ring is app 6".
Running Deer was, as an Olympic event, highly contested an there was an ongoing "arms race" in rifles.
Pre ww2 the Norwegian Krag in 6.5x55 was the most winning rifle. After ww2 the arms race took off with highly customized straight pull rifles. The most popular was Ross. Hammer rifles, like pumps( and the new Beretta, Merkel Helix and Browning Maral), were not competitive due to locktime. The last straight pull rifle designed for this event was a Soviet rifle with a very proprietary low recoil round; the 220 Russian of PPC fame.
The best scores from pre ww2, shot with open sights, are so good that with modern scoped rifles, like a Tikka T3 varmint in 223, a good shooter needs about 10000 rounds dedicated on a moving target range pr year to keep up. I think of the old guys as "Ed McGivern" shooters with straight pull rifles.
Having been competing on an off in this old shooting event the last 40 years I can say that the German Steel Action rifle looks like the best straight pull.
This event is shot on a "running deer" at 100m and the target moves 25yds in 4.7 sec. In "doubles" you then have to fire two shots in 4.7sec. Lead is app 22moa+/- depending on cartridge. X-ring is app 6".
Running Deer was, as an Olympic event, highly contested an there was an ongoing "arms race" in rifles.
Pre ww2 the Norwegian Krag in 6.5x55 was the most winning rifle. After ww2 the arms race took off with highly customized straight pull rifles. The most popular was Ross. Hammer rifles, like pumps( and the new Beretta, Merkel Helix and Browning Maral), were not competitive due to locktime. The last straight pull rifle designed for this event was a Soviet rifle with a very proprietary low recoil round; the 220 Russian of PPC fame.
The best scores from pre ww2, shot with open sights, are so good that with modern scoped rifles, like a Tikka T3 varmint in 223, a good shooter needs about 10000 rounds dedicated on a moving target range pr year to keep up. I think of the old guys as "Ed McGivern" shooters with straight pull rifles.
Having been competing on an off in this old shooting event the last 40 years I can say that the German Steel Action rifle looks like the best straight pull.
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Here are pictures of the Soviet straight pull 220 Russian running deer rifle:
Running deer doubles:
Running deer doubles:
Once you try a SP rifle, you might be ditching the old turn bolt mouse trap.
It's not all about speed either, it's about ease and two steps to cycle an action is easier than four steps.
Nothing complicated about it, it's just different.
It's so easy, even a cave man can do it !
What an interesting design. Maintaining site picture sounds like the main advantage.
Whos to say a straight pull is faster than a turn bolt ? Its the same stupid argument of 60 vs 90.
It may be "faster" from one shot to another, but that does NOT make it faster to shoot.
Fight me.
It may be "faster" from one shot to another, but that does NOT make it faster to shoot.
Fight me.
Everyone here who is shooting biathlon in the Olympic raise your hand? Ok I'll wait. 
Straight pull is that thing that some tell you is better and faster but in actual use isn't or everyone would be using it if it was some great advantage. It's not.
Straight pull is that thing that some tell you is better and faster but in actual use isn't or everyone would be using it if it was some great advantage. It's not.
If you had been using a straight pull keyboard instead of that old 90 degree bolt keyboard you could have posted faster.....
At least that is what the internet experts say.
.
Just like how in a lot of long range scenarios semi auto doesn’t make a difference because you have to wait for the round to hit and then make a correction. Racking the bolt doesn’t add any time at all, you still have to get steady again and wait. The straight pull is better for closer in hunting. Plus Blazer is just cool
No one here competes in the biathlon, because all they own is turn bolt rifles.Everyone here who is shooting biathlon in the Olympic raise your hand? Ok I'll wait.
Straight pull is that thing that some tell you is better and faster but in actual use isn't or everyone would be using it if it was some great advantage. It's not
Like running a pinto in the grand prix.
SJC
Cost. Until Savage came out with their straight pull, there was not an affordable straight pull rifle available in the US.
I love my Browning TBolt.
I love my Browning TBolt.
I heard that the reason switch barrels were so popular in Europe was the authorities looked down in people owning multiple rifles. Getting a new barrel is much easier than trying to get approved for a 2nd or 3rd rifle.
Really? You do see some of the rifles around here right? Nothing to do with cost.
I wouldn't say nothing. Straight pull guns are 2-3 times the cost of conventional guns on the bottom end before the savage. I really think the main reason is that semi auto is going to be a better option most of the time when truly fast shooting is necessary and that's not an option for a lot of the world.
I would say nothing as there are people on here spending $8000-10,000 on a rifle and if a straight pull was so special they would be buying them instead. They aren't.
My call sign is Big Anus and I approve this message.If you had been using a straight pull keyboard instead of that old 90 degree bolt keyboard you could have posted faster.....
At least that is what the internet experts say.
.
As a percentage of the market they make up a tiny part. They offer very little advantage over proven systems. I bet if Zermatt or one of the big boys made a straight pull as good as their normal stuff they would sell but the R&D would be substantial. It's definitely not really needed in our world.
R&D. Bingo. Juice isnt worth the squeeze.
I tried to sign up for a biathlon match here but the laughed at me and asked me what that was. Of course I live in Florida, so maybe it had something to do with that.No one here competes in the biathlon, because all they own is turn bolt rifles.
Like running a pinto in the grand prix.
SJC
Where exactly is there such a thing here in the states?
This thread amounts to a Europe versus US thread, since that’s literally the major reason that these rifles exist. While I have nothing against the straight pull rifle per se, there literally no use I can think of that would make me want to purchase straight pull instead of the commonly available choices I have today.
I had a K31 and it was kind of neat but not neat enough to keep except for collection or vintage rifle matches neither of which I'm into much.
Tried to like and talk myself into buying some of the expensive centerfire SP's but the truth is.....
I like my Anschutz 1827F because the action is short enough being that its 22rf that I can push the bolt forward with my thumb. It really is fast when I want to be.
Now if there came about something like a 22BR centerfire SP action that was similar to my 1827F(push forward with thumb to close bolt) well that might persuade me to go for it.
When I was into NRL22 near the beginning my 1827F won plenty of matches and many times it was because of how easy it was to stay in awkward positions while cycling the action.
Nowadays its not able to keep up with 20 pound Vudoos in weighted chassis systems off props but is still a darn great little rifle otherwise.
Fun, precise, unique, handy - one of the best if not the best as an all around 22rf.
Tried to like and talk myself into buying some of the expensive centerfire SP's but the truth is.....
I like my Anschutz 1827F because the action is short enough being that its 22rf that I can push the bolt forward with my thumb. It really is fast when I want to be.
Now if there came about something like a 22BR centerfire SP action that was similar to my 1827F(push forward with thumb to close bolt) well that might persuade me to go for it.
When I was into NRL22 near the beginning my 1827F won plenty of matches and many times it was because of how easy it was to stay in awkward positions while cycling the action.
Nowadays its not able to keep up with 20 pound Vudoos in weighted chassis systems off props but is still a darn great little rifle otherwise.
Fun, precise, unique, handy - one of the best if not the best as an all around 22rf.
Nobody who competes in Biathlon would use toggle bolts if they were able to use a semi auto. 10/22 based guns would dominate that sport if they were allowed.No one here competes in the biathlon, because all they own is turn bolt rifles.
Like running a pinto in the grand prix.
SJC
They are pleasure to shoot I love my Blaser 
The problem with them is ammo has to be loose in the chamber and loaded mild for reliability. Around here people think reloading manual data is only a suggestion and when you realize the pressures they are running you want to stay far back.
I wish I could try one just for the experience. Never used a straight pull before.
One thing this video made me think of is that I care about the bolt positions a lot more than the shape of the knob, cycle length, rotation, and a host of other factors. If I can come straight off the trigger onto the bolt, we're good. If I have to reach for it, as appears to be the case in some of those video shots, that's no good. Hell, I'd argue the time you lose reaching for the bolt is as much as any you might save not needing to rotate it.
