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Why so few 3 lug custom actions?

T

TEAMSENDIT

Gunny Sergeant
Full Member
Minuteman
    • Sep 22, 2008
    2,947
    29
    45
    whidbey island
    #1
    This may be a crazy question, but i am alittle crazy. Why is it that there aren't more custom 3 lug 60 degree bolt throw actions? i absolutely love the smoothness and bolt throw of the bat, sako, and ai actions? There is a ton of custom 2 lug actions that are great no doubt about it, but logically 3 lugs are stronger than 2 and who wouldn't want a shorter bolt throw.

    i am by no means a riflesmith, just a guy one loves bolt guns and all that goes with them. i am not trying to attack 2 lug actions because they are just fine. just wondering if their is some challenge to manufacturing them.

    thanks scott
     
    #3
    Re: Why so few 3 lug custom actions?

    eventually i will probably just buy a trg and rebarrel because i like the stocks/mags/trigger but would really be nice if defiance made one with a aw mag cut and close to 700 footprint.
     
    #5
    Re: Why so few 3 lug custom actions?

    I am pretty sure the action that they build the 2009 SnipersHide rifle on is a 3-lug. Then the Badger is as well. I'm not sure if it is tougher to EDM/Broach for 3 lugs, or if it is more difficult to get full contact on the lugs, or maybe it is harder to get the bolt lift to be smooth? Not exactly why the 2-lug design seems to be so much more prevalent
     
    #6
    Re: Why so few 3 lug custom actions?

    I have asked myself this question as well I really love the short throw on my trg and it doesn't seem like it would be that hard to do.
     
    #7
    Re: Why so few 3 lug custom actions?

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: KingKong</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I think 3 lugs actions are more diffucult/expensive to make then action whit 2 lugs. I migh be wrong but im pretty sure this is why.
    </div></div>
    Most of the time it boils down to money. This would be my guess.
     
    #8
    Re: Why so few 3 lug custom actions?

    I would love to have a 3 lug bolt with a shorter throw. just makes more sense to me... All the AIs ive played seem like awesome butter smooth actions to me! Also, the AI, TRG, etc. are production rifles that have the 3 lug set up so i wouldn't think it would be TOO HARD for most of the custom builders to make their own 3 lug action... but what do i know
     
    #9
    Re: Why so few 3 lug custom actions?

    well i sent defiance an email and they were very quick with their response in letting me know there were no plans of doing a 3 lug action in the near future. that was a bummer because they were my first choice of companies to work with.

    realistically the trg is probably the best choice when it boils down to it. you can find them used for under $2500. factor in $1000 for action, $200 trigger, $1000 for stock/dbm and its really not a bad deal especially since it is very ergonomic and fairly light also. just wish the price of the darn folder was more reasonable!!
     
    #11
    Re: Why so few 3 lug custom actions?

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: DebosDave</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I am pretty sure the action that they build the 2009 SnipersHide rifle on is a 3-lug. Then the Badger is as well. I'm not sure if it is tougher to EDM/Broach for 3 lugs, or if it is more difficult to get full contact on the lugs, or maybe it is harder to get the bolt lift to be smooth? Not exactly why the 2-lug design seems to be so much more prevalent</div></div>

    it is a 3 lug but 2 in front and one in rear, still has a 90 degree bolt throw. i am only interested in it if it shortens the throw.

    I have heard mixed reviews on the badger action i do like them just alittle unsure about them.
     
    #13
    Re: Why so few 3 lug custom actions?

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: diggler44</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I have heard mixed reviews on the badger action i do like them just alittle unsure about them. </div></div>

    The Badger had teething pains for the Gen 1. Once the gen 2 came out it addressed most of those issues.

    Personally, I own the TRG and could not be happier. Kinetic Research Group is doing an aluminum bedding block that will take AICS mags with no slop. Me, personally...I hope that another mag company picks up a TRG mag like Accurate or MORTA. For the price, that rifle simply can't be beat.

    Josh
     
    #14
    Re: Why so few 3 lug custom actions?

    The thing about a shorter throw of the 60* is that you still need to store the same amount of potential energy in the trigger spring and so if you do it over a shorter distance you have less mechanical advantage. I've had a M2008 and a DTA SRS and personally I've decided I much prefer the smoother, gentler 90* throw of a Rem 700 style that I can operate with the back of my thumb rather than the heavier 60* throws.

    But since you're keeping track, the SRS is also a 3-lug 60* throw bolt.
     
    #15
    Re: Why so few 3 lug custom actions?

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: MinorDamage</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: diggler44</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I have heard mixed reviews on the badger action i do like them just alittle unsure about them. </div></div>

    The Badger had teething pains for the Gen 1. Once the gen 2 came out it addressed most of those issues.
    </div></div>

    Function issues aside, the M2008 is built to VERY tight tolerances (fluting the bolt helps a little, but plan on keeping it very clean and well lubed) and has a very heavy trigger spring (a response to the Gen I FTF problems, I guess) that the 60* throw highlights wonderfully. Also, for a short action it is very large and heavy with a very long bolt that can come back and bonk you in the nose the way you generally associate with a long action.

    None of these things make the action an outright failure, but it definitely is the sort of action that divides people into opposing camps.
     
    #16
    Re: Why so few 3 lug custom actions?

    ratbert as per the norm we tend to agree on the badger and dta srs. however i have used a trg and didn't feel like it was any harder to load the trigger than a rem so it can be done, same with aw.

    i think i am going to try and contact thompson center and see what kinda deal they will give me on a warlord without the barrel. it never hurts to ask!
     
    #17
    Re: Why so few 3 lug custom actions?

    Barnard actually makes a tactical rifle which utilizes HS Precision mags. Google Barnard rifle 07 or go to their website or contact Mac Tilton of MT GUNS. I have two of their P actions in Palma guns and they are amazing and easy to operate despite being 3 lug. People have built tactical rifles with their repeater actions and made them work with AICS mags but it requires a fair amount of work.
     
    #18
    Re: Why so few 3 lug custom actions?

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: diggler44</div><div class="ubbcode-body">ratbert as per the norm we tend to agree on the badger and dta srs. however i have used a trg and didn't feel like it was any harder to load the trigger than a rem so it can be done, same with aw.

    i think i am going to try and contact thompson center and see what kinda deal they will give me on a warlord without the barrel. it never hurts to ask! </div></div>

    Isn't that just a Icon action?
     
    #19
    Re: Why so few 3 lug custom actions?

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Ratbert</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The thing about a shorter throw of the 60* is that you still need to store the same amount of potential energy in the trigger spring and so if you do it over a shorter distance you have less mechanical advantage. I've had a M2008 and a DTA SRS and personally I've decided I much prefer the smoother, gentler 90* throw of a Rem 700 style that I can operate with the back of my thumb rather than the heavier 60* throws.

    But since you're keeping track, the SRS is also a 3-lug 60* throw bolt.
    </div></div>

    Ratbert,

    I think you just answered a question that's been rattling around in my brain for awhile now. If everybody raves about what a smooth bolt the Tikka action has, why is it harder to lift than the Remington 700?

    I've watched the videos of guys lifting their bolts with the back of their thumb and it just doesn't work reliably for me. Perhaps time to get back in the gym.
    grin.gif


    Answer: It's 75 degrees!

    I never would have gotten the correlation between bolt lift distance and potential energy. Thank you!

    John
     
    #21
    Re: Why so few 3 lug custom actions?

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Bacarrat</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: diggler44</div><div class="ubbcode-body">ratbert as per the norm we tend to agree on the badger and dta srs. however i have used a trg and didn't feel like it was any harder to load the trigger than a rem so it can be done, same with aw.

    i think i am going to try and contact thompson center and see what kinda deal they will give me on a warlord without the barrel. it never hurts to ask! </div></div>

    Isn't that just a Icon action?</div></div>

    yes with a full rail and oversized knob plus its manners stock and badger dbm somehow.
     
    #22
    Re: Why so few 3 lug custom actions?

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Captain Kirk</div><div class="ubbcode-body">List of three lug "custom" actions I know of

    -Badger M2008
    -Barnard P and PL
    -RPA Engineering Quadlock (4 lug)

    Kirk R </div></div>

    Bat also does.

    bat001.jpg
     
    #26
    Re: Why so few 3 lug custom actions?

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: JRose</div><div class="ubbcode-body">B/c people like Ratbert with little weinny fingers cry about 3 lugs being too hard to lift.

    grin.gif
    </div></div>

    grin.gif


    Dude,

    Have you ever TRIED to lift a three lug action? It's really heavy!

    John
     
    #27
    Re: Why so few 3 lug custom actions?

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: JRose</div><div class="ubbcode-body">B/c people like Ratbert with little weinny fingers cry about 3 lugs being too hard to lift.

    grin.gif
    </div></div>

    jrose love you comments plus i just learned how to spell "weinny" suprised you didn't just tell him he was gay! guess you have to feel it to know.
     
    #28
    Re: Why so few 3 lug custom actions?

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: JRose</div><div class="ubbcode-body">B/c people like Ratbert with little weinny fingers cry about 3 lugs being too hard to lift.
    </div></div>

    Is THAT why you always ask me to skip foreplay and get right to the main event? My fingers aren't big enough to satisfy you? Hell of a way to tell a guy. I thought we had something special.
     
    #29
    Re: Why so few 3 lug custom actions?

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: jrob300</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: JRose</div><div class="ubbcode-body">B/c people like Ratbert with little weinny fingers cry about 3 lugs being too hard to lift.

    grin.gif
    </div></div>

    grin.gif


    Dude,

    Have you ever TRIED to lift a three lug action? It's really heavy!

    John </div></div>

    All I know is that when JRose found out he was actually going to have to CARRY his Badger all around the mountain he dropped out of ASC...
     
    #32
    Re: Why so few 3 lug custom actions?

    Huh, my AI (with a STRONG firing pin spring) doesn't take nearly the effort to lift at 60 deg as my 700 SPS tac took at 90 deg. I can cycle the AI bolt like a mo-fo.
     
    #33
    Re: Why so few 3 lug custom actions?

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: jasonk</div><div class="ubbcode-body">LOL, those Badgers are just a tad chunky! </div></div>

    I don't find them to be that bad. My rifle weighs 16# with bipod, mag, Hensoldt, rings, 26" HV fluted barrel, and McM A5. That's inline with the other rifles I see posted on here.

    Badgers are heavier actions, but that doesn't mean that weight can't be shaved elsewhere to produce a comparable weight rifle.

    I'm planning to shave a little off of that shortly.

     
    #34
    Re: Why so few 3 lug custom actions?

    For the same reasons the racing industries revolve around the smallblock chevy.

    Yes there are better designs out there - yes it is the standard to which the industry builds to.

    My 3 lug Barnard is on a different planet when it comes to bolt lift and smoothness versus 2 lugs 700 type actions.
     
    #36
    Re: Why so few 3 lug custom actions?

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: _9H</div><div class="ubbcode-body">For the same reasons the racing industries revolve around the smallblock chevy.

    Yes there are better designs out there - yes it is the standard to which the industry builds to.

    My 3 lug Barnard is on a different planet when it comes to bolt lift and smoothness versus 2 lugs 700 type actions. </div></div>

    Looks like 9h and Ratbert will be getting a room soon.
     
    #38
    Re: Why so few 3 lug custom actions?

    The BAT 3 lug fits in a M700 footprint. A bud has several rifles built on these. He sold his 2 lug BAT and Nesika actions as a result of his experience with the 3 lug.

    It is not a singular issue - that is, 2 lug versus 3 lug. The overall action design also affects bolt lift.

    I had a 4 lug RPA side-side with my Barnard 3 lug. No comparison - the RPA is known for heavy bolt lift. This one had it in spades.
     
    #41
    Re: Why so few 3 lug custom actions?

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: SingleShot85</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
    But if AW can make the lift easy others should be able to as well </div></div>

    This

    The lift on my AI is easier and the throw much smoother than any remmy and most customs I have had.

    By the way, the bolt lift is shorter, not the bolt throw...(not addressing you SS85).
     
    #43
    Re: Why so few 3 lug custom actions?

    I have the TRG, the Barnard, and the RPA. Love them all over my Rems. The RPA may be harder to lift because of the compressed Belleville washers used instead of a coil firing pin spring. I think the Barnard is the tightest feeling of the ones named. The RPA is so smooth to shoot with its massive bolt and really nice trigger.

    AG
     
    #44
    Re: Why so few 3 lug custom actions?

    If your looking for the bolt throw, and a cheaper option than a TRG, look at a MKV Weatherby.

    Before all those who will spout off rumor or what I hear about the 9 locking lug thing. They can be made to be very accurate. Some gunsmiths do not want to work on them, but fine other do.

    Now for after market parts, no DBM that I know of..got me there.
    Trigger--timney makes one
    20 moa base, Near or Ken ferall
    Stocks, I believe Mcmillian, B&C.

    You can pick up a used MKV for about 700 bucks, assuming its beat up and need a new barrel. Have it rebarreled and you good to go.

    I do think the older Japan actions are a little better, just my opinion.

    The actions are smooth and fast, the bolt lift is is not any heavier than the 700 action.

    Just another option. Love mine, but if I was starting form scratch and was not in-love with the bolt throw, I would choose another custom action. no worth the cost.
     
    #45
    Re: Why so few 3 lug custom actions?

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: MinorDamage</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The bolt lift on my TRG is far easier than any remy I have tried as well.

    Josh </div></div>Word. I have shot a TRG that my shooting partner has a fair bit, and it is certainly easier than a rem 700. With 60 deg of throw.
     
    #48
    Re: Why so few 3 lug custom actions?

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Willys46</div><div class="ubbcode-body">If your looking for the bolt throw, and a cheaper option than a TRG, look at a MKV Weatherby.

    Before all those who will spout off rumor or what I hear about the 9 locking lug thing. They can be made to be very accurate. Some gunsmiths do not want to work on them, but fine other do.

    Now for after market parts, no DBM that I know of..got me there.
    Trigger--timney makes one
    20 moa base, Near or Ken ferall
    Stocks, I believe Mcmillian, B&C.

    You can pick up a used MKV for about 700 bucks, assuming its beat up and need a new barrel. Have it rebarreled and you good to go.

    I do think the older Japan actions are a little better, just my opinion.

    The actions are smooth and fast, the bolt lift is is not any heavier than the 700 action.

    Just another option. Love mine, but if I was starting form scratch and was not in-love with the bolt throw, I would choose another custom action. no worth the cost. </div></div>

    Amen brother. I have a German MarkV in 7mmWBY and it is smooth like silk. I have an American Accumark in 30-378 and it is almost as good, but not quite.

    The 7mm is getting close to a rebarrel and I am considering a 7mm Dakota (although seeing that this is my father's old rife, it will probably end up with a new 7mmWBY barrel). When I shoot out the 30-378, it is getting accurized/tuned and going to end up as a 338 Lapua.
     
    #49
    Re: Why so few 3 lug custom actions?

    AI is out of my price range as well, but I have heard of people building Howa 1500's up nicely, I belive they cloned the Mark V Weatherby action???

    I haven't looked to deep into them but I think that might get the nod for the next build.
     
    #50
    Re: Why so few 3 lug custom actions?

    The HOWA is different than the Weatherby MKV. HOWA and the Weatherby vanguard are the same thing(besides the bolt is cosmetically different.) The HOWA is a 2 lug design like the Rem 700. They make a great action by the way I have two, 223 and 308, both shoot .5 moa or better.

    The MKV has 3 rows of 3 lugs, so you get the 60 degree bolt throw. This is the issue people speak of trying to get all the luggs to contact evenly. It can be done.

    Dontstrokeme--I purchased a HOWA heavy barreled action in 308 for $400.00 and put it in a Russo A5L, and the stupid thing shoots great. 15 rapid fire rounds in a .75 MOA. Not bad for less than 1K. I would not hesitate a second to build off a HOWA action.

    Heck, If you look at the NOSLER custom rifles. Check out the actions and compare it to the HOWA. I can not confirm, but I believe NOSLER is using HOWA actions for their builds with minor cosmetic changes.
     
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