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Wichester M70 caliber conversion

cj1026

cj1026

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Full Member
Minuteman
Aug 12, 2008
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Repulik of Commieforniastan
So I have a Wichester M70 .270win. I am not a huge fan of the .270 and honestly I have had this rifle for 8 years and it's been to the range twice.

So instead of buying a new rifle I figured I would have this thing built into something I will shoot.

So what are my options on building this into a new caliber? Is this action even worth building? I want something able to reach 1500 yards or so. Is it even possible with this action?
I have 2 .308's that are nice to 1000 yards but I want to stretch my legs and try something longer.

So any input or thought would be greatly appreciated.
 
Re: Wichester M70 caliber conversion

I believe the .270win. was based off the '06 case, so that is an option or any other cal. w/ same size bolt face. I'm sure some with more knowledge will correct me if wrong, and tell you more options. But the action itself is a solid reliable action. The M70 action was one of the original military sniper rifle actions before being replaced by the Rem.700.
 
Re: Wichester M70 caliber conversion

I have a .280AI that is built off of a M70, originally a XTR .243. It is a good action to build on as mine is smooth, reliable, and accurate. 6.5-284, 6.5X55, 6.5-06, 280, .280AI, are what I was considering at the time. I settled on the .280AI because I primarily hunt, barrel life was a consideration, and the fact that I won't have to trim brass.
 
Re: Wichester M70 caliber conversion

Like the others said, the 280 Ackley would be a choice.
 
Re: Wichester M70 caliber conversion

There is not a rats ass bit of difference in a 270 Win and a 280 Rem. If someone loaded it for you and you could not see the ctg. you could shoot it all your life and not know which one it was. I looked at your post and see you have little expirence loading ammo and shooting, so your bias against a .270 Win is not based on bad expirence with one. It is one of the worlds great medium game calibers. Why not give it a try? Unless you just have money to throw away, what can you gain by junking a good barrel. Can you tell me with a straight face one fault with a 270 for a med game rifle? I have used them interchangeably with various 7mm magnums for 40 years and cannot see the difference in killing ability on game including sheep, deer, pronghorn, kudu, zebra, impala, elk, moose and grizzly. I have not used it on Alaskan brown bear, but might on my next trip. The main difference is muzzle blast. You have a great cartridge there.
 
Re: Wichester M70 caliber conversion

I would also lean towards the 280 or 280 AI. Loads would cost a little more for the 280 AI, but you can get factory Nosler brass that is very good and push a 168 or 180 VLD a long ways.


<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: rth1800</div><div class="ubbcode-body">There is not a rats ass bit of difference in a 270 Win and a 280 Rem. </div></div>When shooting these inside of ~300-500 yards, I would agree with this statement. I would even say the 270 will do a little better since you can push it faster than the 280. When talking long range like the OP is asking, the high BC bullets of the 7mm will out perform the 270 hands down (and I'm a huge 270 fan). So, for this application for long range, there is a huge difference between the two.
 
Re: Wichester M70 caliber conversion

If it's a hunting rifle, then I'd just keep it as is.
If you want to make a LR precision rifle, then have it rebarreled to .280AI (maximizing capacity in .473 bolt face) and have the HIGH BC bullets available in 7mm.

The major issue with the .270 is the lack of HIGH BC match bullets for LR shooting.
 
Re: Wichester M70 caliber conversion

Might want to look at the articles over on 6mmbr.com German Salazar shoots a .30-06 match rifle at 1000 yds and has written a few articles on the stellar performance of that round.

All gonna be about bullets. A 7mm offers you many more choices over the .277, but a .270 is fine. The .30-06 probably offers more variety for match bullets and much longer barrel life.

Your winchester 70 LA offers a fine action to work with; about the best.

A lot of competitive shooters seem to be selling their HighPower Win 70 based rifles these days, if the offerings on Gunbroker.com are any indication. Have seen Krieger barreled pieces with McMillan stocks go for under $800. Might look at what is out there before you build.

Still see some Winchester 70 Heavy Varmint rifles in .308 from time to time. McMillan stock and 26" heavy ss barrel, plus the great barrel life of the .308win....

Lots to consider. Probably the finest low-recoil longrange precision round is the 6.5x55 Swedish. If you can live with match bullets in the 140 grain realm, you get Best Of All Possible Worlds. There is also the .30-284win if you want to wildcat a bit.

See Salazar's articles and maybe the .30-06 though has something to offer?
 
Re: Wichester M70 caliber conversion

Pass the 280AI and 162's at 3000fps,while holding the fluff.
 
Re: Wichester M70 caliber conversion

Thanks for the advice from everyone. I guess the .280/ .280AI is a popular one.
So with this in mind is there a good gun smith to work of a Winchester action? Not worried about time frame as I am not in a hurry to get this done. Rather have it done right instead of having it done fast.
My first thought is having GAP build it. Does anyone know if they work on Winchester actions?
 
Re: Wichester M70 caliber conversion

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: rth1800</div><div class="ubbcode-body">There is not a rats ass bit of difference in a 270 Win and a 280 Rem. If someone loaded it for you and you could not see the ctg. you could shoot it all your life and not know which one it was. I looked at your post and see you have little expirence loading ammo and shooting, so your bias against a .270 Win is not based on bad expirence with one. It is one of the worlds great medium game calibers. Why not give it a try? Unless you just have money to throw away, what can you gain by junking a good barrel. Can you tell me with a straight face one fault with a 270 for a med game rifle? I have used them interchangeably with various 7mm magnums for 40 years and cannot see the difference in killing ability on game including sheep, deer, pronghorn, kudu, zebra, impala, elk, moose and grizzly. I have not used it on Alaskan brown bear, but might on my next trip. The main difference is muzzle blast. You have a great cartridge there.
</div></div>
Well seeing how I have a .223, .243, .30-06 and a .300wm for hunting I don't give a rats ass about the .270. It is a great round but as stated in my original post I don't shoot it and I would rather have something in my safe I will shoot to help improve my skills.
And as far as reloading and shooting, I'm glad you know all about me from reading some posts on the internet.
 
Re: Wichester M70 caliber conversion

Advice is hard to give when information keeps coming in... I don't think rbh1800 was giving you bad advice but he also didn't know what other rifles were in your safe.

My advice it to sell it and start from scratch buying a custom action If you're serious about getting to 1K and beyond. There are lots of guys with a ton of knowledge and experience who have trouble grouping well at 1K let alone beyond that.

Good equipment is only the beginning and in no way guarantees results. Have you shot beyond 1K? it is hard as hell to hit anything reliably even with excellent equipment. Horse power and BC does matter at distance and you're going to have a better chance reaching your goal just starting from scratch with a true custom action and opening up your check book from that point forward.

I would do some more reading and look at the custom rifles classifieds to get an idea of what it's going to cost you to reach out and touch anything beyond 1K - and that's just the rifle! Add in the dies, press, scale, tools, LRF, chronograph, wind meter and thousands of rounds of pratice... I sure I could main line heroin daily cheaper than this obsession.
 
Re: Wichester M70 caliber conversion

The 280AI is a very nice blend of capacity to COAL latitude,replete with some sinister BC's available...which makes it tough to whip. Good brass abounds,shit feeds like it has fucking eyes,you gain an extra round in the belly over an H&H or WSM and recoil is dick.

There is no Rocket Science involved with barreling a '70,as compared to anything else.
 
Re: Wichester M70 caliber conversion

Should add in fairness,that I'm more than a little amused at someone who can't tell the difference between a 270 and a 280. I couldn't factor that gross inability to process the obvious,as "experience"...though it would squarely describe an exceedingly slow learner.
 
Re: Wichester M70 caliber conversion

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: cj1026</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Thanks for the advice from everyone. I guess the .280/ .280AI is a popular one.
So with this in mind is there a good gun smith to work of a Winchester action? Not worried about time frame as I am not in a hurry to get this done. Rather have it done right instead of having it done fast.
<span style="color: #FF0000">My first thought is having GAP build it. Does anyone know if they work on Winchester actions?</span> </div></div>

Good choice in my opinion
wink.gif
. Yes, they work on many Winchesters, Moon did his wonders on mine ( I described above).
 
Re: Wichester M70 caliber conversion

cj,
This is what I know about you.
You ask questions like,
How do you neck size with a FL die?
Does seating the bullet from .2810 to .2800 reduce velocity?
Is a Winchester action even worth building?
And make statements like "I want something to reach 1500 yards or so" on an action with a .473 bolt face.
Just offered you some advice. Sorry to mislead you like that.
Spend a couple grand to increase the bore dia .007 of an inch.
I am sure you will do fine.
 
Re: Wichester M70 caliber conversion

Fresh,
If you get a change to respond prior to getting banned again, what exactly are the major differences on game, one with your expirence would expect to see in a 150 grain bullet of identical construction in .277 and .284 fired at similar velocity.
What do you attribute these major differences. Do you expect to see the animals run further or attack when they realize that the bullet was only .277 rather than .284? Do the animals you shoot carry calipers?
How much game have you shot with each?
I have killed many dozens of animals with the .277 and 7 mm magnums and the largest difference I see is a bit flatter trajectory with the 7mm magnums, a bit more muzzle blast. I have never lost an animal shot at with either one. I may be a slow learner, but to me the 270 Win and .280 Rem are two peas in a pod, given similar bullet construction and weight. In my opinion neither of them will be worth a damm at 1500 yards, but as you say, I am a slow learner. I am sure with all the primers you shoot you shoot both a lot at 1500 yards. I seldom shoot over 800 as the range by my loading bench only goes that far, I need to drive 20 minutes to get to a measly 1000.
 
Re: Wichester M70 caliber conversion

rth1800 makes some valid points. I've used the same stock M70 push feed 30-06 to knock over deer on a farm in North Dakota, and at some significant distances on Camp Pendleton. Handloads or factory ammo from Wal Mart have all been used successfully. If your main goal is hunting, take the money you will spend on a re-barrel ( at least 650.00) and spend it on glass and ammo, then practice until your trigger finger is raw. I have custom rifles in a couple different calibers but if for some reason I had to sell all of my collection and keep just one, it would be the Winny........
 
Re: Wichester M70 caliber conversion

go with the 284 Win a 180gr VLD at 2800-2850 you are good to go to a mile will fit the action and no stress to the action win win.
 
Re: Wichester M70 caliber conversion

That is the best reccomendation yet, or 6.5x284, take your pick.
 
Re: Wichester M70 caliber conversion

the 6.5/284 will struggle past 1200 yards the plane jane 284 with VLD projectiles even the 175gr Sierra MAtchKing will get 1500 yards and the 180gr Mergers will get you a mile the bore diameter between the 7mm and 270 is not realy a major issue but the availability of super high BC projectiles makes the 7mm the best proposition for long range unless you are looking at 338. read the info from Brian Litz the only projectile in 30 cal close to the 180gr Berger and 175gr MatchKings is the 240gr Matchking and you have to drive it faster than the 180gr 7mm to equil the balistics so an ultramag is needed to pass the 7mm mags and recoil becomes a major issue. the 6.5/284's are tempremental and in the long term less barrel life by half and less balistic efficency and very tempremental load a 284Win with necked up Lapua brass and throw 54gr H4831SC into the case and shoot it they all seem to love that load it shoots past 1500 yards and they just keep shooting far superior to the 6.5 and it is way infront of a 30-06 or a 30-284 shooting 208-210gr projectiles.

Just bite the bullet get a 9 twist 7mm barrel I have a Rock on order am using a Lawton with great results and also have another Lawton on order to make sure i have barrels chambered on the shelf when i wear one out.
 
Re: Wichester M70 caliber conversion

On that basic case, I like the bullet selection for the .280. As a hunter, I can always find .270 ammo, and hardly ever see .280 on the more common shelves. 1500 yards is a stretch for a lot of reasons; I don't see it as a seriously reasonable goal. 1200, I could see; but I think it's pot luck beyond that. It's one thing to reach it, it's quite another to do it with acceptable accuracy.

Greg
 
Re: Wichester M70 caliber conversion

I am not saying to use any 7mm at 1500 yards for hunting but we have been shooting targets back to 15000 yards and the 284 is what i would consider minimum and better than a comparable 30 cal. the 280 is pretty close to the 284 it has a slight edge but the 280AI is above them again but we have found the 284 to be easier to get a load for and keep in tune. 1200 yards is a walk in the park for a 284 Win and even a humble 6mmBR is supersonic at 1200 yards loaded with a 107gr Sierra at 2850fps. i shoot competatively at 1000-1200 yards and use a 7mm Rem SAUM it is about perfect for the job especialy in fishtailing winds and any more capacity and you get troubles shooting 15 and 20 shot matches when the conditions are good i can nail down 22 shots in under 5 min with the target getting marked between shots.

I dont think that the shooter will be shooting well past 1200 yards regularly but the 284 will do it if going to shoot past 1200 a lot it would be a step up to a 338 and forget the 30 cal on the way through.

The other thing is to make sure the rest of the rifle is up to the task bedding scope, trigger etc or just throwing a barrel on a clunker will not help much.

I believe with the base rifle a 9 twist 284 wil would be hard to beat.
 
Re: Wichester M70 caliber conversion

I agree with Wild Bill and the 284. I have been shooting a mauser I rebarreled to 284 and have nothing but good success. I have only been able to shoot it to ~650 but the inherant accuraccy of the case and high the BC bullets available are what pushed me towards the cartridge. A lot of shooters are going back to the 284. It is a great cartridge. The only experience I have with a 280 is using a borrowed rifle for one afternoon of deer hunting. It dropped a buck right DRT at about 400 yards. Couldnt complain.
 
Re: Wichester M70 caliber conversion

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: rth1800</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Fresh,
If you get a change to respond prior to getting banned again, what exactly are the major differences on game, one with your expirence would expect to see in a 150 grain bullet of identical construction in .277 and .284 fired at similar velocity.
What do you attribute these major differences. Do you expect to see the animals run further or attack when they realize that the bullet was only .277 rather than .284? Do the animals you shoot carry calipers?
How much game have you shot with each?
I have killed many dozens of animals with the .277 and 7 mm magnums and the largest difference I see is a bit flatter trajectory with the 7mm magnums, a bit more muzzle blast. I have never lost an animal shot at with either one. I may be a slow learner, but to me the 270 Win and .280 Rem are two peas in a pod, given similar bullet construction and weight. In my opinion neither of them will be worth a damm at 1500 yards, but as you say, I am a slow learner. I am sure with all the primers you shoot you shoot both a lot at 1500 yards. I seldom shoot over 800 as the range by my loading bench only goes that far, I need to drive 20 minutes to get to a measly 1000.

</div></div>

A chambering can be no better than it's bullet and you go to great lengths to expound your gross inexperience with the most simplistic of ballistic basics. The .007" difference in bore sizing is beyond meaningless,but BC isn't,nor is projectile construction. The .277's will always pale,due to that constant.

Citing "identical" 150gr projectiles in differing bore diameters,only substantiates your inability to get the goody out of a given chambering...especially in .284". I've zero doubt that your inability to discern differences is honest feedback,as well as stark testimony to you being in well over your head,regarding an extrapolation of each.

Feel free to take notes as an aid to speeding your learning curve. Thank me later.
 
Re: Wichester M70 caliber conversion

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Wild_Bill</div><div class="ubbcode-body">go with the 284 Win a 180gr VLD at 2800-2850 you are good to go to a mile will fit the action and no stress to the action win win.

</div></div>

The 280/280AI allows another round in the belly,better FF and is a match made in l/a heaven.

While I'm a notorious fan of the 284Win and it's spawn,the allure is none in a l/a.
 
Re: Wichester M70 caliber conversion

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Wild_Bill</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I am not saying to use any 7mm at 1500 yards for hunting but we have been shooting targets back to 15000 yards and the 284 is what i would consider minimum and better than a comparable 30 cal. the 280 is pretty close to the 284 it has a slight edge but the 280AI is above them again but we have found the 284 to be easier to get a load for and keep in tune. 1200 yards is a walk in the park for a 284 Win and even a humble 6mmBR is supersonic at 1200 yards loaded with a 107gr Sierra at 2850fps. i shoot competatively at 1000-1200 yards and use a 7mm Rem SAUM it is about perfect for the job especialy in fishtailing winds and any more capacity and you get troubles shooting 15 and 20 shot matches when the conditions are good i can nail down 22 shots in under 5 min with the target getting marked between shots.

I dont think that the shooter will be shooting well past 1200 yards regularly but the 284 will do it if going to shoot past 1200 a lot it would be a step up to a 338 and forget the 30 cal on the way through.

The other thing is to make sure the rest of the rifle is up to the task bedding scope, trigger etc or just throwing a barrel on a clunker will not help much.

I believe with the base rifle a 9 twist 284 wil would be hard to beat.

</div></div>

I shoot the SAUM more than a little and think highly of it in a .532" s/a. The 280AI is like capacity and a far better mousetrap in l/a.
 
Re: Wichester M70 caliber conversion

Fresh,
Learn to read. I did not cite "identical" bullets of different bore sizes. I cited bullets of identical construction, identical weight, and bore sizes of .007 difference. As you say, the .007 has very little meaning. One is like the other so why change? That was my original point. I will not discuss this or anything else with you in the future. Looking forward to your getting banned soon.
141 post in about a week. No questions. Does that tell you something? It tells others quite a bit.
 
Re: Wichester M70 caliber conversion

You said: "one with your expirence would expect to see in a 150 grain bullet of identical construction in .277 and .284 fired at similar velocity.".

Good call to punt,you were in wayyyyyyyy over your head. I was prolly going to ask you to cite your beloved 270Win/150 Load that runs with a 280,then it woulda went way South from there for you.

You should be asking questions,not attempting to "answer" them.
 
Re: Wichester M70 caliber conversion

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: rth1800</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Can you tell me with a straight face one fault with a 270 for a med game rifle? I have used them interchangeably with various 7mm magnums for 40 years and cannot see the difference in killing ability on game including sheep, deer, pronghorn, kudu, zebra, impala, elk, moose and grizzly. I have not used it on Alaskan brown bear, but might on my next trip. The main difference is muzzle blast. You have a great cartridge there.</div></div>

I guess if I was asking about a good caliber for hunting this would be helpful. But I'm asking about something to use for long range.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: rth1800</div><div class="ubbcode-body">cj,
This is what I know about you.
You ask questions like,
How do you neck size with a FL die?
Does seating the bullet from .2810 to .2800 reduce velocity?
Is a Winchester action even worth building?
And make statements like "I want something to reach 1500 yards or so" on an action with a .473 bolt face.
Just offered you some advice. Sorry to mislead you like that.
Spend a couple grand to increase the bore dia .007 of an inch.
I am sure you will do fine. </div></div>

As far as the questions I ask or my posts. I'm not as savy nor do I have as much knowledge as the people here on this site. Do I want to be? Fuck yeah I do. Can I figure it all out on my own? Nope. Thats why I ask the questions I do. Sorry if it shows how much of a boot I am, but shit we all have to start somewhere.
 
Re: Wichester M70 caliber conversion

I always like to hear what nobody has to say...

some of you jackasses need to go instead...

fucker sucks at cutting trees too...
 
Re: Wichester M70 caliber conversion

CJ,
I started this out to be helpful and got off track. I ask questions on here as well. Most do. I have quite a bit of expirence in some areas and very little in others. (gas guns for example) I would venture to guess that I have as much if not more expirence with .277 and .284 cartridges as anyone on the site. I have shot them for 43 years and hunted with them on 5 continents. Shot many dozens of head of game with them. A few may or may not have shot more. Few will have takin a broader varity of game with them. I have worn out 5 7mm barrels, expirementing with various wildcats.( about 1000-1200 rounds is all I would get) Also shot out two .270 Win barrels. ( about 8000 rounds each) I often see people posting trying to spend others money or steer them off on some pet of theirs. I try to remain unbiased. If you had posted that you wanted to rebarrel a .280 and someone had suggested a .270 Win. my advice would have been the same. Don't waste your money and time. Both are good and any difference in largely in the imaganation. I do think 1500 yards is pushing any 473 bolt face ctg. Most of the ultra long range guys are shooting big bores and cases.
For me this site is about sharing and learning. I know no one can be the most expirenced or knowledgable about every subject discussed on this site. Good luck with your project. I will be glad to help in any way I can.
 
Re: Wichester M70 caliber conversion

I checked the 4ed of the Barnes manual.
I was suprised at the result.
I did not select this book to skew the results, I checked it to represent the bullet I would choose to shoot and Barnes uses all 24" barrels of the same make for even results
.270 Win. 150 BTS 24" barrel 3000 fps exactly
.280 Rem 150 BTS 24" barrel 2900 fps not sure if exact.
I am sure if two more rifles were checked the results could be reversed. That is my point, there is more varation in individual rifles than in the two cartridges. I am sure that either one can be overloaded to the same degree and increase velocity. Either one could be AI'ed and overloaded for further "improvement" but the facts are clear, there is little or no difference.
So basicly, you are looking at 2950-3050 with sane loads in either, with the option of overloading for either one. So, if your pet load is 3200, the other could be as well, given equal overloading.
 
Re: Wichester M70 caliber conversion

rth1000

Compare a 150g Berger with BC of 0.531 at 3200 fps (doubt can get that fast in 270Win though) to a 180g Berger with BC of 0.659 at 2950 fps (easy to get in 284 Win with RL17 in my rifle) to see what wins.

If you plug both into JBM, the 180g Berger wins. The .277 Berger becomes transonic around 1500 yards with velocity of 1052 fps there, it needs 51.2 MOA to get there and is pushed 12.2 MOA by a 10 mph wind. The 180g Berger becomes transonic at 1700 yards with a velocity of 1072 fps. At 1500 yards, the 180g Berger is going 1226 fps and needs 49.2 MOA elevation and is pushed 9.4 MOA by the same 10 mph winds.

At 1000 yards, the 180g Berger needs 1.3 more MOA elevation, drifts 1.2 MOA less and is going 111 fps faster.

You can argue whether or not the differences are what you would consider significant.

I think the 284 diameter makes alot more sense for the posters original question.

I went with .284 Shehane to push the 180g Berger's to 2950 fps with H4831 or 3050 fps with RL17.
 
Re: Wichester M70 caliber conversion

Ky,
I agree with you about the .284 for ultra long range. I answered the question more with what I thought the OP's best interest in mind. I really do not consider either one a good ultra long range rifle. The .284 would be better though.
 
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