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Will rain affect MV?

D1gger

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Minuteman
  • Nov 12, 2017
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    Staunton, VA
    So I was breaking in a new AR that I put together. I followed Hawk Hill's procedure for break in, then went on to zero the scope, so I had about 30 rounds on the barrel when I put the Magnetospeed on. It was only a 3 shot group, but it measured .57, so I thought I would get some pretty good numbers on the chrono.
    I was using Gorilla ammo, 77gr SMK, advertised velocity of 2750. I shot 2 5-shot strings. The first had an average MV of 2604, ES 96, SD 39. The second string averaged 2591, ES 67 SD 24.
    It was raining steadily, but I was under cover and the rifle and ammo were not wet at all. I know with this being a new barrel, it will break in and get faster, so I'm not really concerned about the MV, but those ES's and SD's are horrible-not what I expected from match ammo. I was planning on developing a load for this, but I assumed this would be a good starting point. At this point, I'm not so sure. Thoughts?
     
    Here’s that 3 shot group
    516FA6C8-26F2-4B1C-8F4A-1EDDD503680A.png
     
    You're jumping to conclusions and making connections that aren't there.

    Why would rain affect a sensor that's right under the rifle's muzzle and works on electromagnetic induction?

    The shit ammo you bought has nothing to do with developing a load. Why would you consider store-bought ammo as a starting point?

    Serious question: have you ever worked up a load for a rifle before? Because I have and my starting point is the loading manual.

    Gorilla Ammo? Never heard of it. Anyone can fill a box with shit and call it "match grade", but it doesn't make it so.
     
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    LOL, I love this place. Yes, Dad, I have worked up a load before. I have my 308 and my 6.5CM in an AR10 in single digit SD's, well below 1 MOA groups.
    I wasn't saying the rain was affecting the chronograph, I was wondering if the humidity in the air would affect the performance of the ammo. I've never had a problem with my Magnetospeed and never insinuated anything in the above statement. I've run factory ammo over the chrono before and got mid-teens for SDs-Hornady 6.5 and Federal 308
    I have a ton of 223/556 ammo, and it's my reloads, but it's all 55gr stuff. I need to shoot further than that, so I need to work up some 77gr loads, wanted a baseline.
    Components are hard to come by right now, especially anything 223 related. I don't have any XBR to start up a load for this rifle, so I'm starting with this stuff because it's all I could get ahold of in 77gr SMK's
     
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    My thoughts are that two groups with one load is a pretty small data set. I think that trying to read anything meaningful into that data set is highly premature.

    To answer your actual question; no, I don't think that humidity is going to be a factor at any short to mid range distance, and think that when it does start to matter, it'll be far from the most significant influence on POI. As for affecting in-barrel performance, if it's not impossible; it's damned near impossible.

    Th effect of humidity is to replace some of the air with water vapor. Since hydrogen has less mass than nitrogen, this tends to reduce the density of the intervening air on the way to the target. The result will be a shorter time of flight and less drop.

    But the differences are mighty small at under 1000yd; and beyond 600yd, I'll be using the 260, and not the 223.

    Out of a 24" barrel, my loads are intended to produce a 2750fps MV with the 75-77gr Match bullets. You can drive them faster, but I'd prefer not to subject my barrels to the needed mayhem inside the engine room.

    My suggestion would be to find a reliable MV/SD figure from Hornady 75gr HPBT Match ammo. I think that would be point where I'd be refining the load for best accuracy. Aside from that, the only use I have for factory ammunition is to roughly zero new scopes, and to provide once fired brass. Properly prepped, nearly all brass will give good accuracy once or twice, except some Norinco range brass I once saw that had split shoulders. I even got good accuracy a few times by reloading Tulammo Steel Cases (Boxer primed) as an experiment; but I wouldn't do it again, there are dangers.

    I've had good accuracy, accuracy guarantee type accuracy, from Hornady 75, IMI 77, and PPU 75 match.

    Greg
     
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    In short No. Humidity isn't going to have a perceivable effect on your ammo performance. The ES/SDs you're seeing is likely a factor of unidentified variables of internal balliectis. Straight out of the gate the two biggest errors I see is (A.) Trying to chronograph a gun with only 30 round down the pipe and (B.) a painful lack of data points to draw from.

    Regarding chronoing new guns - I'd say wait till about 150rnds and then double back. I do like to get an early chrono reading just to see a rough idea of where a gun is at but often you'll see the MV and SDs take some time to settle in and solidify. Secondly on this point most factory ammo have MVs that are overstated often their testing MVs with 24-26" barrels or sometimes just straight up fudging numbers. If you're at 2600ish with an 18" I'd say yeah its a little low but its still in the ball park.

    Lastly regarding your lack significant data points - I can tell you are either a cheap frugal fellow or just down right inexperienced. I know reading that probably makes you mad and the temptation is to dismiss it BUT here you are contemplating the effects of weather on your MV/SDs after only firing (2) 5 round stings. Additionally you posted a single 3 round group even after hinting you probably knew better. Your results are inconclusive because you've failed to take the appropriate efforts in gathering data.

    Bottom line. Break your barrel in (at least 150ish rounds) then shoot a 20 round string (I'd recommend some FGMM) and conduct a 5x5 for an accuracy evaluation.
     
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    Well, in my defense, this is the STUPID marksmanship questions forum so....
    All kidding aside, I know that my 30 round data doesn't mean much and the barrel needs a lot more to be broken in. That wasn't my point and I should have been more clear.
    I've chrono'd new barrels before, with factory and handloads and have not seen the large swings that I saw yesterday. I also know it doesn't mean much, as I need a lot more data to wring this thing out.
    I also know that 3 round groups don't mean anything, and I normally shoot 5 shot groups when working up loads, but I was limited in time as I was losing daylight. Thanks for all your replies
     
    I was wondering if the humidity in the air would affect the performance of the ammo.

    Well... think about it like this:

    The ammunition, for all intents and purposes, is a sealed container. Ambient humidity on the firing line literally cannot affect the ignition of the primer, or the burn rate of the powder. When you pull the trigger, the primer ignites the powder column, the gas pressure expands the brass cartridge to form a seal in the breach, and the bullet goes down the barrel. The air column in front of the bullet serves to push most everything out of the bore as the bullet moves along. No where in there is anything that can be affected by relative humidity on the firing line.

    In theory, excess moisture (like actual water droplets) in the chamber or in the bore can do bad things during the firing process - but from the sounds of it, you were not in a situation where there was any kind of moisture introduced to the chamber or bore. Down range, high humidity can cause *some* changes in ballistic performance... but that's more a function of the air density, and it's pretty small, just above 'negligible'.
     
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    Maybe the battery in the Magnetospeed is getting weak or something. Just a thought.
     
    Maybe the battery in the Magnetospeed is getting weak or something. Just a thought.

    More likely the bulk .223/5.56 ammo. .223 Rem in general is a PITA to get 'good' chrono numbers on, comparatively speaking, and bulk ammo just makes that worse. YMMV.
     
    As others have said probably crap ammo and new barrel giving you anything but good SD numbers.
    With the way things are right now I would acquire the necessary components and just start from scratch as good 77gr ammo has been hard to find
    for a while now.

    My particular rifle liked the Federal FC262 ammo but it was here and gone quickly so I did my best to clone it using 77gr SMK, IMR8208 and CCI 450 primers.
    There is a ton of 77 SMK 223 load info out there for you to try. The one thing that I will mention is for whatever reason my 223's do not like low neck tension.
    I get lower SD numbers with higher neck tension.

    Also remember that not only does the barrel length affect muzzle velocity but the chamber reamer that was used affects it also.
     
    Actually, the bullet is supersonic, pushing a bow wave/shock wave that vaporizes/displaces water droplets enroute to the target. In my own experience; shooting on days where periodic showers occurred, the same load gives the same on target performance with or without the rain. Groups and POI don't change for me. If conditions permit, try to observe trace. In rain, it appears to be a snake of fog.

    When we observe rain, the major significant component is wind. Showers and fronts behave differently. A front is preceded by gusting winds, once it passes, sustained rain tends to have steadier, lower winds. The winds from showers are not, AFAIK, predictable. Winds vary at different distances, as does air density, and the entire air mass is never at complete rest. During spells of 'calm' the major air movement vectors are vertical.

    Mirage is an issue, parallax is an issue, barrel temperature is an issue, especially if the round is allowed to 'bake' in the hot chamber. For a small investment you can know the barrel's temperature, and not need to guess.

    The performance of a load changes as the propellant temperature changes. The total energy of a powder charge includes the latent heat in the propellant. If it starts out at a lower temperature, it ends up at a lower temperature; establishing a given pressure level. With greater initial heat, more heat and pressure may result, depending on the kernel coatings/composition.

    This variance can shift the load in and out of the accuracy node.

    Fouling is an issue. All powders have a kernel coating, there to moderate burning rate, and more importantly to prevent static electrical discharge in the cartridge and in the powder can during transit. Since before the turn of the 20th century, that coating has been graphite. Graphite is a dry lubricant, which can vary velocity by its absence or presence. Copper fouling at the temperatures and pressures where the bullet passes in transit also possesses lubricant characteristics.

    Newer coatings are more complex, but I suspect that there may be things like moly and or boron in them, which are dry lubricants. The cleanliness/fouling states are critical.

    If you are starting out with a whistle-clean bore, you may not have fired enough rounds to establish a steady state fouling condition, where the fouling erodes at the same rate as its deposition. This is called bore seasoning, is a crucial segment of bore initialization, and can mess with dispersion.

    I did a lot of target shooting(Turkey Shoots) with black powder/round ball, and bore condition/conditioning is even more critical in that application.

    I do not strive for complete fouling removal, and do my final load development acceptance testing by starting with a fouled barrel that has already been brought up to a temperature that is similar to where it would be during a competitive course of fire. This is very similar to when hunters confirm zero/foul the bore once reaching the actual hunting locale.

    This assures that I am developing a load that will be at its peak performance under conditions as close as possible to those under which it will be put to work for its intended purpose.

    This type of testing is considered excessive by some, but is at the far end of the spectrum from the tests you performed; and maybe that's a factor, too.

    Greg
     
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