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William Buck Memorial Postal Matches

Good Saturday afternoon, Larry. I hope you’re getting out to shoot and getting some aroma therapy.
Had a good day shooting in excellent Charlotte weather.
I scored the close one (target no. 10) with a plug. It appeared to break the 10 ring.
Do you mind putting your eye to it?
Best case it’s 200; otherwise it’s a 199. Thanks in advance for eyeballing it.
Best
John
IMG_8123.jpeg
 
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JohnMetcalf said:
Good Saturday afternoon, Larry. I hope you’re getting out to shoot and getting some aroma therapy.
Had a good day shooting in excellent Charlotte weather.
I scored the close one (target no. 10) with a plug. It appeared to break the 10 ring.
Do you mind putting your eye to it?
Best case it’s 200; otherwise it’s a 199. Thanks in advance for eyeballing it.
Best
JohnView attachment 8202995
Click to expand...
John, I think you mean bull #9. Bull #10 is clearly in, with the single round breaking the line. Bull #9 looks like it would plug in, touching the line as well, since it is so close. Let's go with 200. Very good shooting!

I have your score posted.
 
JohnMetcalf said:
Good Saturday afternoon, Larry. I hope you’re getting out to shoot and getting some aroma therapy.
Had a good day shooting in excellent Charlotte weather.
I scored the close one (target no. 10) with a plug. It appeared to break the 10 ring.
Do you mind putting your eye to it?
Best case it’s 200; otherwise it’s a 199. Thanks in advance for eyeballing it.
Best
JohnView attachment 8202995
Click to expand...
Yep, I would think a plug would touch on bull #9.

Good shooting Sir!!
 
Hi-NV Shooter said:
We pause for an important announcement -Larry great ARA win in WI 2125 agg 56X awesome shooting and against one of the best too!

Lee
Click to expand...
Haha, thanks Lee! John made a strong charge on the last card, and I rushed a few shots to score lower. When the dust settled, he came up 50 points short. Not the strongest finish and I always try to beat my agg, and whatever place that works out to, so be it. In this case, I barely beat the master...
 
Rimfireshooter99 said:
Haha, thanks Lee! John made a strong charge on the last card, and I rushed a few shots to score lower. When the dust settled, he came up 50 points short. Not the strongest finish and I always try to beat my agg, and whatever place that works out to, so be it. In this case, I barely beat the master...
Click to expand...
Larry, that is not the way to look at it. even if you won by only 5 points it is a win. you were the better shooter that day, always keep your mental game positive. barely beat is still beat!

again, good job

Lee
 
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Rimfireshooter99 said:
Haha, thanks Lee! John made a strong charge on the last card, and I rushed a few shots to score lower. When the dust settled, he came up 50 points short. Not the strongest finish and I always try to beat my agg, and whatever place that works out to, so be it. In this case, I barely beat the master...
Click to expand...
Congrats on the win Sir!!
 
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Ok, sorry that the target isn't well laid out and linear like I usually do. However, I never expected to end up doing a 6X5 at 100. I was just testing an alternate ammo out of the Vudoo as well as a scope swap as I am now planning on using the Vudoo in a comp this weekend.

JBELL 100 yard 6X5 - shot back to back.
Avg = 0.768"
Best group = .536"
Vudoo 360
Arken EP5 scope
SK Long Range Match - 12773
Shot August 16/2023

Aug 16_100_1.jpg


Aug 16_100_2.jpg
 
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Precision Quest said:
Ok, sorry that the target isn't well laid out and linear like I usually do. However, I never initally expected to end up doing a 6X5 at 100. I was just testing an alternate ammo out of the Vudoo as well as a scope swap as I am now planning on using the Vudoo in a comp this weekend.

JBELL 100 yard 6X5 - shot back to back.
Avg = 0.768"
Best group = .536"
Vudoo 360
Arken EP5 scope
SK Long Range Match - 12773
Shot August 16/2023

View attachment 8206425

View attachment 8206429
Click to expand...
PQ, I have your scores posted.
 
Precision Quest said:
Ok, sorry that the target isn't well laid out and linear like I usually do. However, I never expected to end up doing a 6X5 at 100. I was just testing an alternate ammo out of the Vudoo as well as a scope swap as I am now planning on using the Vudoo in a comp this weekend.

JBELL 100 yard 6X5 - shot back to back.
Avg = 0.768"
Best group = .536"
Vudoo 360
Arken EP5 scope
SK Long Range Match - 12773
Shot August 16/2023

View attachment 8206425

View attachment 8206429
Click to expand...
Fine shooting Sir!!
 
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Rimfireshooter99 said:
Bowchamp, I saw your post over on RFA about the Timney benchrest trigger. Have you ever used a Bix N Andy trigger? If so, how does the Timney benchrest trigger compare?

Thanks,

Larry
Click to expand...
Well Mr Larry funny you ask. Yesterday I would've said no but my how things can change in 24 hours. I put a Bix n Andy trigger in a rifle today and we'll be shooting tomorrow so I'll know more about it. I have an opinion already just from installing it but gonna wait to get more shots down range, don't want to jump the gun. LOL!!

I'll let you know Sir. (y)
 
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Mr Larry,
I tried all three triggers out, Timney 700 Benchrest, Jewell 700 Benchrest and the Bix n Andy 700 competition. The Bix n Andy is without a doubt the best of the three with the Jewell close behind. The very crisp break of the Bix n Andy and it's ease of adjustability was very very nice. My Jewel has a crisp break too but took a little more work to get it to this point. Both of these triggers are set at 1 ounce. I think the Timney would be a very good trigger for someone not wanting to spend as much money. It was easy enough to adjust and the break is very close to my Jewell. The Timney would only go down to 1.5 ounces which is still pretty light. Only problem with the Timney is once it was installed in the rifle, the trigger housing had some play in the action. It didn't seem to affect the trigger pull but I would prefer it to be tight like the other two triggers.

Bottom line, I could shoot all three and be happy with the only concern being the loose fit of the Timney.


Had an opportunity to shoot an Unlimited Match target after our local ARA Match so here's my entry for this month.

Thank you Sir!!

20230819_160610.jpg
 
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BowChamp said:
Mr Larry,
I tried all three triggers out, Timney 700 Benchrest, Jewell 700 Benchrest and the Bix n Andy 700 competition. The Bix n Andy is without a doubt the best of the three with the Jewell close behind. The very crisp break of the Bix n Andy and it's ease of adjustability was very very nice. My Jewel has a crisp break too but took a little more work to get it to this point. Both of these triggers are set at 1 ounce. I think the Timney would be a very good trigger for someone not wanting to spend as much money. It was easy enough to adjust and the break is very close to my Jewell. The Timney would only go down to 1.5 ounces which is still pretty light. Only problem with the Timney is once it was installed in the rifle, the trigger housing had some play in the action. It didn't seem to affect the trigger pull but I would prefer it to be tight like the other two triggers.

Bottom line, I could shoot all three and be happy with the only concern being the loose fit of the Timney.


Had an opportunity to shoot an Unlimited Match target after our local ARA Match so here's my entry for this month.

Thank you Sir!!

View attachment 8208439
Click to expand...
Bowchamp, thanks very much for your testing and analysis of the three triggers. I appreciate the time and effort very much!

I have your score posted.

Larry
 
I don't want to sidebar this forum, however what is realistic in terms of accuracy at 100 yards with a mag fed .22 (360, Tikka Rim X etc)?

I ask as I had a guy at the range watch me shoot my CZ 457 at 50 yards and after I was done I was getting several 10 shot groups in the .5 or .6 range with RWS Target rifle ammunition. He was quick to reply that his Tikka shoots the same groups at 100 yards with CCI high velocity rounds (I think he said they were like 16XX fps).

I blew off what the guy said as "fishing stores" as I was thinking, IF he shoots multiple 10 shot back to group groups at 100 yards with a Tikka then he has the best shooting .22 on the Continent? Is this kind of 100 yard precision possible in a mag fed .22, or is he blowing smoke?
 
Precision Quest said:
What does plug refer too?
Click to expand...
A 22 bullet doesn't always make a clean hole in the paper so a plug is used to determine the score of the shot. Trying to get a clean hole is also one reason targets are printed on heavy card stock. A plug is used when a shot is very close to a line or dot. It is cut to the diameter of a 22 cal. bullet and is placed in the hole. See pics. I use a plug with a magnifier on it.

If you notice I have a P beside bull #11, this notes that a plug was used to determine the score of that bull. You are suppose to plug a hole only once.

Hope this helps.

20230820_103805.jpg


20230820_103613.jpg
 
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Precision Quest said:
I don't want to sidebar this forum, however what is realistic in terms of accuracy at 100 yards with a mag fed .22 (360, Tikka Rim X etc)?

I ask as I had a guy at the range watch me shoot my CZ 457 at 50 yards and after I was done I was getting several 10 shot groups in the .5 or .6 range with RWS Target rifle ammunition. He was quick to reply that his Tikka shoots the same groups at 100 yards with CCI high velocity rounds (I think he said they were like 16XX fps).

I blew off what the guy said as "fishing stores" as I was thinking, IF he shoots multiple 10 shot back to group groups at 100 yards with a Tikka then he has the best shooting .22 on the Continent? Is this kind of 100 yard precision possible in a mag fed .22, or is he blowing smoke?
Click to expand...
Smoke and fishing stories sounds about right until I see it.


Here's another example of how a plug can burn you as well. ARA is scored worst edge. This target is from my ARA Match yesterday. Bull #13 was scored as a 25. I protested this bull during the protest period thinking it was a 10, I won my protest for a loss of 15 points. Bull #8 is another example of how close a shot can be.

:)



20230820_115356.jpg


20230820_115453.jpg


20230820_115520.jpg
 
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Precision Quest said:
I don't want to sidebar this forum, however what is realistic in terms of accuracy at 100 yards with a mag fed .22 (360, Tikka Rim X etc)?

I ask as I had a guy at the range watch me shoot my CZ 457 at 50 yards and after I was done I was getting several 10 shot groups in the .5 or .6 range with RWS Target rifle ammunition. He was quick to reply that his Tikka shoots the same groups at 100 yards with CCI high velocity rounds (I think he said they were like 16XX fps).

I blew off what the guy said as "fishing stores" as I was thinking, IF he shoots multiple 10 shot back to group groups at 100 yards with a Tikka then he has the best shooting .22 on the Continent? Is this kind of 100 yard precision possible in a mag fed .22, or is he blowing smoke?
Click to expand...
PQ, I'll refer you to the 6x5 thread that JBell used to run. It's still listed in the Forum, on the top list of threads on the main page. In that, you will find several years of data from all shooters, all rifles. Check out the list for 100 yard best average and best group. Here's the last section of that thread (from 2022) so you can see what was being shot back then, and the rifle used. Rim X is similar to a Vudoo, magazine fed action/rifle.

FYI only. I hope this helps with your question?

Larry

Screenshot 2023-08-20 at 6.11.05 PM.png
 
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Rimfireshooter99 said:
PQ, I'll refer you to the 6x5 thread that JBell used to run. It's still listed in the Forum, on the top list of threads on the main page. In that, you will find several years of data from all shooters, all rifles. Check out the list for 100 yard best average and best group. Here's the last section of that thread (from 2022) so you can see what was being shot back then, and the rifle used. Rim X is similar to a Vudoo, magazine fed action/rifle.

FYI only. I hope this helps with your question?

Larry

View attachment 8209003
Click to expand...
thank you sir. In thinking back, it would have been best to post my question on another forum.
 
BowChamp said:
A 22 bullet doesn't always make a clean hole in the paper so a plug is used to determine the score of the shot. Trying to get a clean hole is also one reason targets are printed on heavy card stock. A plug is used when a shot is very close to a line or dot. It is cut to the diameter of a 22 cal. bullet and is placed in the hole. See pics. I use a plug with a magnifier on it.

If you notice I have a P beside bull #11, this notes that a plug was used to determine the score of that bull. You are suppose to plug a hole only once.

Hope this helps.

View attachment 8208631

View attachment 8208630
Click to expand...
Thank you. Good explanation,
 
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Very tricky shooting day today. Wind on and off and very switchy (no flags) and super hot.

Not a good showing, but thought I would enter my Vudoo 360 match target being its the first one I shot with the gun.

Crazy spead on the velocities on my good 50 yard ammo...58 fps spread on 30 shots! WTH

SK Std Plus.
191 - 8X, maybe 7X (hard to tell, but under magnifier, it looks like 15 is touching the centre dot.

Vudoo 50 yard match.jpg
 
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Precision Quest said:
Very tricky shooting day today. Wind on and off and very switchy (no flags) and super hot.

Not a good showing, but thought I would enter my Vudoo 360 match target being its the first one I shot with the gun.

Crazy spead on the velocities on my good 50 yard ammo...58 fps spread on 30 shots! WTH

SK Std Plus.
191 - 8X, maybe 7X (hard to tell, but under magnifier, it looks like 15 is touching the centre dot.

View attachment 8214747
Click to expand...
PQ, I have your score posted!

Larry
 
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BowChamp said:
Smoke and fishing stories sounds about right until I see it.


Here's another example of how a plug can burn you as well. ARA is scored worst edge. This target is from my ARA Match yesterday. Bull #13 was scored as a 25. I protested this bull during the protest period thinking it was a 10, I won my protest for a loss of 15 points. Bull #8 is another example of how close a shot can be.

:)



View attachment 8208674

View attachment 8208675

View attachment 8208676
Click to expand...
Unless they changed, the plug they use that plug you are using is illegal for ARA scoring. you have to use the plugs they sell. also target has to sit flat on a scoring board to be plugged. you get one chance to plug the target (insert plug) with generally 2-3 witnesses.
but if this all for fun and not sanctioned doesn't matter.

Lee
 
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Here are 3 submissions for the 100 yard 6X5, testing different suppressors. I wish I had access to a lot more to test, they are so finicky with rimfire...
Best average: 0.617"
Best group: 0.398"
PXL_20230829_095901094.jpg
 
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Hi-NV Shooter said:
Unless they changed, the plug they use that plug you are using is illegal for ARA scoring. you have to use the plugs they sell. also target has to sit flat on a scoring board to be plugged. you get one chance to plug the target (insert plug) with generally 2-3 witnesses.
but if this all for fun and not sanctioned doesn't matter.

Lee
Click to expand...
No Sir, they have not changed that rule and doubt they ever will. Anyone who shoots ARA sanctioned matches on a regular basis knows this is an illegal plug and can not be used for official ARA scoring.

Could you please direct me to where this........."target has to sit flat on a scoring board to be plugged.".....is located in the ARA rules. I seem to be over looking it and would like to read it for myself.

Thanks for your help Sir. :)
 
Precision Quest said:
Very tricky shooting day today. Wind on and off and very switchy (no flags) and super hot.

Not a good showing, but thought I would enter my Vudoo 360 match target being its the first one I shot with the gun.

Crazy spead on the velocities on my good 50 yard ammo...58 fps spread on 30 shots! WTH

SK Std Plus.
191 - 8X, maybe 7X (hard to tell, but under magnifier, it looks like 15 is touching the centre dot.

View attachment 8214747
Click to expand...
Fine shooting Sir!! Keep'em coming!!
 
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BowChamp said:
No Sir, they have not changed that rule and doubt they ever will. Anyone who shoots ARA sanctioned matches on a regular basis knows this is an illegal plug and can not be used for official ARA scoring.

Could you please direct me to where this........."target has to sit flat on a scoring board to be plugged.".....is located in the ARA rules. I seem to be over looking it and would like to read it for myself.

Thanks for your help Sir. :)
Click to expand...
I don't believe it is in the general rule book as scoring falls under a match director's duties. how to score a target is not general information and reserved for MD. I been on scoring teams so that is how I was taught, I even signed off on a couple of factory class 2500.
if the target is not flat then the plug could be inserted at an angle to make a shot look in or out also viewing a plug needs to be looked at from directly above since again any angle can make a shot look in or out.

Lee
 
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I would like to post this as a 6X5 at 100 yards. Note that technically the one group is a 10 shot, but never did get back out to the range to test anymore this month.

Shot August 12, 2023

Kidd 10/22 - 100 yards
Ammunition - Eley Precision SA
6X5 Avg = .865
Best Group = .406

Kidd 100 1.jpg


Kidd 100 2.jpg
 
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BowChamp said:
Fine shooting for sure!!! I gotta stretch my rifle out and give this a try. (y)
Click to expand...
Although your comment was not directed to me, I would add that 100 yard shooting 6X5's is a humbling experience... especially if you are used to shooting benchrest and other shooting competitions at that distance. Also it is not not easy to shoot back to back decent / good groups at 100 yards in .22.

I am starting to think that a 6X5 stretch goal might be for an aggregate in the .6X range. Not sure I can get there or not yet though, as our range is almost like a pit and the winds swirls all about in the last 50 yards particularly and they frown on the use of wind flags. I think it might be better if I can go to a range that is more open?


Parting shot is I want to thank Rimfireshooter99 and any others who manage the data and details of the William Buck Memorial Matches on this site. Overall, I am now using it compare / gauge how my results are stacking up against similar shooters.

My $.02
 
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Precision Quest said:
Although your comment was not directed to me, I would add that 100 yard shooting 6X5's is a humbling experience... especially if you are used to shooting benchrest and other shooting competitions at that distance. Also it is not not easy to shoot back to back decent / good groups at 100 yards in .22.

I am starting to think that a 6X5 stretch goal might be for an aggregate in the .6X range. Not sure I can get there or not yet though, as our range is almost like a pit and the winds swirls all about in the last 50 yards particularly and they frown on the use of wind flags. I think it might be better if I can go to a range that is more open?


Parting shot is I want to thank Rimfireshooter99 and any others who manage the data and details of the William Buck Memorial Matches on this site. Overall, I am now using it compare / gauge how my results are stacking up against similar shooters.

My $.02
Click to expand...
PQ, a couple of thoughts for you. First, you're not alone with a range that frowns on wind flags. I have found that they might let you staple a strip of surveyor tape to the top edge of the target frame, so you can at least get a feel what the wind is doing at the target. Not sure if you shoot over 50 yards target frames to get to 100 yard target frames, but if so, also see if you can staple a strip at the 50 yard line as well. Two reference points are better than none.

Otherwise, I used to shoot the Mosquito match at 200 yards. To help me judge the wind, I would post one set of splatter targets (dark background with yellow highlights to help me "see" my hits at 200 yards), 6" diameter to the right side of the target frame, and then posted the Match target on the left side. Then, I used the splatter targets as sighters, so I could judge how much hold off I needed. Lastly, once I had an idea of the hold-off, I moved over to the match target and shot the 5 shots there. No flags needed with this model. However, you do need to know your scope elevation setting for 100 yards, so you can focus on what the wind is doing, and not whether your scope is zero'd for 100 yards.

Anyway, a couple of ideas that may help with your shooting, given the lack of wind flags.

Lastly, there is only me managing the matches, but this format makes it easy for me to post results from everyone's shooting. Thanks very much for the kind thoughts!

Larry
 
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Precision Quest said:
Although your comment was not directed to me, I would add that 100 yard shooting 6X5's is a humbling experience... especially if you are used to shooting benchrest and other shooting competitions at that distance. Also it is not not easy to shoot back to back decent / good groups at 100 yards in .22.

I am starting to think that a 6X5 stretch goal might be for an aggregate in the .6X range. Not sure I can get there or not yet though, as our range is almost like a pit and the winds swirls all about in the last 50 yards particularly and they frown on the use of wind flags. I think it might be better if I can go to a range that is more open?


Parting shot is I want to thank Rimfireshooter99 and any others who manage the data and details of the William Buck Memorial Matches on this site. Overall, I am now using it compare / gauge how my results are stacking up against similar shooters.

My $.02
Click to expand...
PQ, here is data from the Forum Thread that JBell used to coordinate. This will give you an idea of what is possible with a .22 at 100 yards...

100 Yard Average:
1: 0.527” / 0.503 MOA (BisSilent- Rim X Lothar Walther 9/8/22)
2: 0.561” / 0.536 MOA (Dr. Glock- RimX Green Mountain 5/10/22) *indoors*
3: 0.651” / 0.622 MOA (grauhanen- Anschutz 1411 8/23/22)
4: 0.670” / 0.640 MOA (BrienM- Vudoo V-22 2/1/22)
5: 0.680" / 0.649 MOA (jbell- RimX Benchmark 8/13/22)
6: 0.711” / 0.679 MOA (Mr. Wolf- CZ457 Lothar Walther 8/18/22)
7: 0.743” / 0.710 MOA (prebancolt- Vudoo V-22 9/27/22)
8: 0.771” / 0.736 MOA (NotMOA- Tikka T1X 7/22/22)
9: 0.817” / 0.716 MOA (Gassoline- CZ 457 Lilja 5/14/22) 109 yards
10: 0.872” / 0.833 MOA (NotMOA- Anschutz 1416P 12/13/22) **PISTOL**
11: 0.935” / 0.893 MOA (jbell- Vudoo 360 Benchmark 4/25/22)
12: 0.985” / 0.941 MOA (Hattrick- Rim X Bart 11/6/22)
13: 1.060” / 1.012 MOA (justin amateur- CZ 455 Fuglie / Lilja 6/22/22) *17 Mach2
14: 1.173” / 1.139 MOA (Emerson0311- Tikka T1X IBI 1/3/22) *90M

100 Yard Best Group:
1: 0.170” / 0.162 MOA (Dr. Glock- RimX Green Mountain 5/10/22) *indoors*
2: 0.274” / 0.262 MOA (grauhanen- Anschutz 1411 8/23/22)
3: 0.317” / 0.303 MOA (BisSilent- Rim X Lothar Walther 9/8/22)
4: 0.488” / MOA (Hattrick- Rim X Bart 11/6/22)
5: 0.490” / 0.468 MOA (NotMOA- Anschutz 1416P 12/13/22)**PISTOL**
6: 0.509" / 0.486 MOA (jbell- RimX Benchmark 8/13/22)
7: 0.530” / 0.465 MOA (Gassoline- CZ 457 Lilja 5/14/22) 109 yards
8: 0.513” / 0.490 MOA (BrienM- Vudoo V-22 2/1/22)
9: 0.582” / 0.556 MOA (Mr. Wolf- CZ 457 Lothar Walther 8/18/22)
10: 0.601” / 0.574 MOA (jbell- Vudoo 360 Benchmark 4/25/22)
11: 0.638” / 0.609 MOA (NotMOA- Tikka T1X 7/22/22)
12: 0.664” / 0.634 MOA (prebancolt- Vudoo V-22 9/27/22)
13: 0.700” / 0.669 MOA (justin amateur- CZ 455 Fuglie / Lilja 6/22/22) *17 Mach2
14: 1.000” / 1.030 MOA (Emerson0311- Tikka T1X IBI 1/3/22) *90M
 
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Hi-NV Shooter said:
I don't believe it is in the general rule book as scoring falls under a match director's duties. how to score a target is not general information and reserved for MD. I been on scoring teams so that is how I was taught, I even signed off on a couple of factory class 2500.
if the target is not flat then the plug could be inserted at an angle to make a shot look in or out also viewing a plug needs to be looked at from directly above since again any angle can make a shot look in or out.

Lee
Click to expand...
Thank you Sir!!!

Off to do some more digging. (y)
 
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