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What value do you give the wind on the angles?

  • Half Value

    Votes: 12 13.3%
  • 3/4 Value

    Votes: 8 8.9%
  • More refined, like 3/4, 1/2, 1/4...

    Votes: 60 66.7%
  • Other

    Votes: 10 11.1%

  • Total voters
    90

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Minuteman
  • Apr 12, 2001
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    i'm not following you. at the firing line (i understand there prob is different if not way different wind downrange) are you saying kestrels don't measure wind speed correctly or am i totally missing your point? thinking i want to at least know the actual wind at the firing line as that seems the easiest to get right?


    We are talking two different things, you are not tracking,

    Yes we want an actual wind speed if that is what you are referring too

    But we are talking about more than just X MPH at the shooter
     

    brianf

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    Hi guys, had a few PM's and questions so i tried to make a few videos of how it works.
    nothing hollywood but basic functionality and one or two processes...dont make too much fun lol.






    last one is a little blurry, ill redo it soon.
     
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    sinister

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    Conventional Known Distance highpower rifle competition gives one a lot of opportunities to get practice at doping winds in fairly consistent conditions. Fixed yard lines (typically 200, 300, and 600, and 800, 900, and 1,000) and flat ranges (albeit with different bordering obstacles and vegetation) give you the opportunity to build and refine data using generally known parameters. Range wind flags give you an idea of conditions where you can apply your formulae on a day or relay condition.

    I have shot in few places where the conditions run generally the same all day, every day, but you may see similar weather and winds if you shoot at that particular range complex a few times.

    I applaud the research people are doing to narrow or nail the variables for a first-round hit using a rifle at any time, place, or angle. I imagine they're the same for an M1A2 SEP 2 tank firing a 120mm main gun, on the move, over terrain, in the dark, using a catalog of maybe half-a-dozen round types. Except the tank has hundreds of thousands of dollars worth of sensors, it requires a lot of power, and it's not man-portable.

    Patent the software and hardware that gives a rifleman the ability to do what you can with an M1 tank and you cut the training requirement for long-range sniping or competition by years. Don't know what it'll cost, but as they say -- build a better mouse trap and the world will beat a path to your door.

    People know the name of the first success by their trade names -- Xerox, Hoover, Scotch tape, Post-it, McMillan, Harris, AR, etc. You could argue Kestrel is becoming the common term for the rifleman's hand-held weather station.
     
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    Skookum

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  • May 6, 2017
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    Hi guys, had a few PM's and questions so i tried to make a few videos of how it works.
    nothing hollywood but basic functionality and one or two processes...dont make too much fun lol.




    This is pretty great. I will be spending quite a bit of time playing with this.
     

    Diver160651

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  • Feb 7, 2013
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    People know the name of the first success by their trade names -- Xerox, Hoover, Scotch tape, Post-it, McMillan, Harris, AR, etc. You could argue Kestrel is becoming the common term for the rifleman's hand-held weather station.

    It will not be long until the current optical sensors seen on 12m yachts and larger LADARs on wind farms and artillery/mil units are made smaller. But at the end of the day, shoulder fired systems are not subjected to the same time in the wind and target shooting is not the low hanging fruit.
     
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    brianf

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    That is the future 100%.
    Issue is add to that none of the small electronics that we use are hardened against EMP’s and any nearpeer rival will use that as a first strike or area denial weapon.
    Not massive civilian casualties, stops the war machine.
    Basic/analog/non data trasnsfer equipment will start to be trained as a primary backup.
     
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    brianf

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    In my way of thinking, this is the goal of a real marksman. What I personally want to be able to do; is take any rifle I might be handed with a good zero, whether 223 or 338 Lapua, and hit a 3 MOA target at 800 yards. I want to be able to do this with a minimum of info just by understanding basic velocity and BC trends for trajectory and wind.

    I am not there yet, though I've increased my wind doping ability dramatically in the last few years, and I am still working on a method for relating different trajectories in a way that is easily memorable. The couple of guys I know that can do this, have memorized 4 diferent trajectories and relate them to other unknowm trajectories by percentage. I struggle with that as of right now, but it may be the only way to go.

    Send what you have, sounds like something I’d like to stare at for a while.
    Plus my youngest just puked so I’m not going anywhere today.
     

    Diver160651

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    Minuteman
  • Feb 7, 2013
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    Hi guys, had a few PM's and questions so i tried to make a few videos of how it works.
    nothing hollywood but basic functionality and one or two processes...dont make too much fun lol.





    Very nice..

    This is bringing back an old memory of "The Wheel" deco tables we had to pass in basic instructor level. For me it was harder than anything I tested for, even later as a mixed gas instructor.

    Super simple concept, but if one step was missed the result was very wrong. I had this, the least significant module, wrong in one step and had 24rs to retake or fail the 99% of the other stuff I aced. An hour before my retake @ 6am after staying up all night, trying to figure the small step I must be doing wrong.. I finally figured out my use of error issue. It was so simple I never looked at my fundamental flaw.

    All that said it worked very well as an analog computer for running deco profiles rather than using a flat bottom time. But the trend was already set in computers. That said, strangle much like this thread, for mixed gas, many of us went back to analog "modified" tables. As a side note: We experimented with a lot of accelerated deco using various gasses and deep stops not in any of the computers. Many of my friends pushed until they eventually experienced a deco hit, even if it was because of a bent finger running our DPVs and not opening and relaxing our hands in deco.

    25 years later looking at your wheel, in the same color pattern.. well it still makes me feel very uneasy- but that is obviously my personal issue.
     

    brianf

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    Sorry to ruin your Christmas Eve. Lol.
    Just think if you miss a step with mine you hit the dirt, not bend over in pain.

    What I’ve done in general isn’t earth shattering, I’ve taken what works across different disciplines/generations and refined a simple process to follow and use.

    Once the process was finalized, then the device was created (after several/many prototypes).

    I pm’d someone yesterday, I looked at making a few more tools/wheels on the device but the information was becoming too generic.

    One of the top priorities was accuracy and repeatability. There is enough half truth half accurate stuff out there already.

    Always hated...this works well...but...
     
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    Skookum

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  • May 6, 2017
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    Send what you have, sounds like something I’d like to stare at for a while.
    Plus my youngest just puked so I’m not going anywhere today.
    It's really nothing earth shattering, the trajectories memorized are: 223 w/ 69 SMK at 2,900 fps, 308 w/175 at 2,700 fps, 300 win w/ 208 at 2,900 fps, and 338 Lapua w/ 300 at 2,600 fps.

    Just about any cartridge combo you will encounter shooting longrange can be closely compared to one of these out to 800 1000 yards.
     
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    christopher.dow

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    It will not be long until the current optical sensors seen on 12m yachts and larger LADARs on wind farms and artillery/mil units are made smaller. But at the end of the day, shoulder fired systems are not subjected to the same time in the wind and target shooting is not the low hanging fruit.
    Nick Vitalbo from AB alluded to that in the Precision Rifle Media podcast #95.
     
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    brianf

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    If like to thank everyone who has shown interest in the F.I.R.E. Calculator.

    I’ve been asked more than once for a price so I’ve settled on $15. A hobby should be fun not a second mortgage payment lol.

    There are a few out in the wild, and I waiting on some feedback. As info comes in I’ll post it good or bad.

    If it takes off and obvious revisions are needed I’ll adjust and remanufacture.

    Pm with any questions about uses or stumbling points if you have one.

    If you are a verbal person send me your phone number and I’ll call back. Or if you are a visual person you can pm me a piece of paper with your specific formula/calculation (what you expect the answer to be) and I’ll make another video.

    Thsnks
    Brian finamore.
     

    THEIS

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    Minuteman
  • Nov 27, 2017
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    It will not be long until the current optical sensors seen on 12m yachts and larger LADARs on wind farms and artillery/mil units are made smaller. But at the end of the day, shoulder fired systems are not subjected to the same time in the wind and target shooting is not the low hanging fruit.

    Hi,

    At this past IDEX in February there were a couple different International companies that were showcasing their version of these systems in the smallest packages I have seen so far.

    This chip design is going to change the Observation equipment in regards to size of the hand-held Lidar/Millimeter radar hybrids.

    Sincerely,
    Theis
     
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    Fig

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    You engineer geeks may as well not pick up a rifle if you think you can calculate wing to a singe %# and shoot well. Frank’s chart gets you more than half way there, and then it’s experience and feel. If you don’t get there’s an art to reading wind and mirage, that’s informed by having seen that shot a dozen times, you’ll be stuck where you are. You can’t calculate your way around wind. The best shooters in the world call it “wind guessing” for a reason. Maybe the Israeli radar thingy that can detect down range currents could calculate to a single %, but unless you’re hauling that around there is no substitute for trigger time and shooting in varied conditions.

    Last year I shot on a confirmation range, the day before a match, in wind 45-50mph. The holds were insane, and I was getting impacts on IPSCs at 800+ yds. I think the worst wind I’d ever shot before that was about 30mph. It was awesome, and quite a confidence booster. If you want to improve your wind reading stick to the basics and shoot as many conditions as you can.
     

    MarinePMI

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  • Jun 3, 2010
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    You engineer geeks may as well not pick up a rifle if you think you can calculate wing to a singe %# and shoot well. Frank’s chart gets you more than half way there, and then it’s experience and feel. If you don’t get there’s an art to reading wind and mirage, that’s informed by having seen that shot a dozen times, you’ll be stuck where you are. You can’t calculate your way around wind. The best shooters in the world call it “wind guessing” for a reason. Maybe the Israeli radar thingy that can detect down range currents could calculate to a single %, but unless you’re hauling that around there is no substitute for trigger time and shooting in varied conditions.

    Last year I shot on a confirmation range, the day before a match, in wind 45-50mph. The holds were insane, and I was getting impacts on IPSCs at 800+ yds. I think the worst wind I’d ever shot before that was about 30mph. It was awesome, and quite a confidence booster. If you want to improve your wind reading stick to the basics and shoot as many conditions as you can.

    Fig,

    Yes and no. I agree that experience shooting in wind cannot be discounted as a way to become a better shooter. Currently there is no better substitute for learning to call the wind.

    That being said, like the Corps sometimes, don't let your dogma stifle the 'state of the possible' wrt new technology being implemented in a way that gets us closer to consistent first round impacts. New technology should be embraced where it makes sense, backed by the experience to go without that new technology (should it fail, as it often does when it is new, unproven, and untested in real world environments).

    If we all stuck with the "meh, that won't make you a better shooter" attitude, because we're stuck doing it the "tried and true" method, than we'd still be guessing wind values and estimating ballistic curves, rather than using a Kestrel and AB with custom drag models.

    Not dinging you per se, just saying don't let dogma "and the way it's always been done" blind us to the opportunities that new technology may be able to give us to increase our range and accuracy.

    I remember reading an article that Caylen wrote about this very topic wrt to LE snipers and the dogma that is keeping them in the past, when there are better, proven and efficient ways to perform this task call "precision long range".
     
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    TacticalDillhole

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  • Jun 26, 2012
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    Fig,

    Yes and no. I agree that experience shooting in wind cannot be discounted as a way to become a better shooter. Currently there is no better substitute for learning to call the wind.

    That being said, like the Corps sometimes, don't let your dogma stifle the 'state of the possible' wrt new technology being implemented in a way that gets us closer to consistent first round impacts. New technology should be embraced where it makes sense, backed by the experience to go without that new technology (should it fail, as it often does when it is new, unproven, and untested in real world environments).

    If we all stuck with the "meh, that won't make you a better shooter" attitude, because we're stuck doing it the "tried and true" method, than we'd still be guessing wind values and estimating ballistic curves, rather than using a Kestrel and AB with custom drag models.

    Not dinging you per se, just saying don't let dogma "and the way it's always been done" blind us to the opportunities that new technology may be able to give us to increase our range and accuracy.

    I remember reading an article that Caylen wrote about this very topic wrt to LE snipers and the dogma that is keeping them in the past, when there are better, proven and efficient ways to perform this task call "precision long range".
    Lawyers keep LE in the past
     

    Fig

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    I agree. My point was not to eschew data, only that even good data needed to be interpreted and was less useful raw. Sure, I use the latest Kestrel and I can get the wind at my position to the nearest mph. Helps a lot. Good input gives good output. Figuring wind to the exact % based on vector is of very limited value IMHO. The rule of thumb gets impacts.

    However, I can calculate everything, look through my scope, and not like the boil I’m seeing so I change my poi from the center to the edge of the plate and often I get pretty close to the center with my shot that would be an edge or off the plate if I used the straight calculation.
    You need the good data for the science, but from there it’s all art.
     
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    brianf

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    I agree. My point was not to eschew data, only that even good data needed to be interpreted and was less useful raw. Sure, I use the latest Kestrel and I can get the wind at my position to the nearest mph. Helps a lot. Good input gives good output. Figuring wind to the exact % based on vector is of very limited value IMHO. The rule of thumb gets impacts.

    However, I can calculate everything, look through my scope, and not like the boil I’m seeing so I change my poi from the center to the edge of the plate and often I get pretty close to the center with my shot that would be an edge or off the plate if I used the straight calculation.
    You need the good data for the science, but from there it’s all art.

    I agree that human guestimation/ intervention is still needed.

    but as you say you calculate every variable possible and then fine tune.

    What technology has let us do is calculate and THEN fine tune the last few percent, not guesstimate the whole firing solution

    Tech reduces the variables considerably., making the human portion less important /less of a variable.

    Increasing hit probability.
     

    brianf

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    Been getting feed back from a few FIRE calculators that some members have been using.

    1. It's a little busy (as expected) when first played with, but becomes more "clear" when you become familiar.

    2. Compared to several ballistic calculators it is with in 1-1.5 MOA at distance (not 500 yards), which I believe is well with in the wind guesstimate that is needed for any ballistic solution.

    3. Some have found it very useful for explaining /training because of the visual combined with the manual manipulation.

    As I get more info I'll keep everyone up to date.

    Brian
     
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    Jack Master

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    I'm trying to get better at calculating my wind holds

    I've recently update my wind rose. See below. This wind rose turns my wind into the 90 degree true value wind for me. I've used this at a match and it worked really well. Couple this wind rose with the MPH gun method and you have a quick wind hold. Using this rose does require time and distance as it might be slower than head math, but its more accurate as well.

    Wind Rose - Corrected wind speed for Angle.jpg
     
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    Nygaard

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    I've recently update my wind rose. See below. This wind rose turns my wind into the 90 degree true value wind for me. I've used this at a match and it worked really well. Couple this wind rose with the MPH gun method and you have a quick wind hold. Using this rose does require time and distance as it might be slower than head math, but its more accurate as well.

    Hi Jack Master,

    Nice setup you have there.
    I'm in the proces of making up some wind material, but as i live in Denmark and use the metric system, i need the values in meters per second. Wold like to make something similar to your layout and were wondering what software you used for the layout?


    Best regards,
    Christian
     

    TacticalDillhole

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  • Jun 26, 2012
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    I've recently update my wind rose. See below. This wind rose turns my wind into the 90 degree true value wind for me. I've used this at a match and it worked really well. Couple this wind rose with the MPH gun method and you have a quick wind hold. Using this rose does require time and distance as it might be slower than head math, but its more accurate as well.

    View attachment 7138144
    So can you explain to me how this works? I think I get it. I kinda like it but I want to be sure.
     

    Jack Master

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    So can you explain to me how this works? I think I get it. I kinda like it but I want to be sure.

    This is a wind rose that completes the sin of the wind angle for you.

    Example.
    True wing is 15mph at 2 o'clock.
    From chart- 90 degree full value wind is 13 mph.
    Target at 600yds with 6mph gun.
    Hold is 1.2 mils right. (.6 x 2)
     

    Jack Master

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    Hi Jack Master,

    Nice setup you have there.
    I'm in the proces of making up some wind material, but as i live in Denmark and use the metric system, i need the values in meters per second. Wold like to make something similar to your layout and were wondering what software you used for the layout?


    Best regards,
    Christian

    I used autoCAD to make this.
     
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    Dthomas3523

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    Minuteman
  • Jan 31, 2018
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    This is a wind rose that completes the sin of the wind angle for you.

    Example.
    True wing is 15mph at 2 o'clock.
    From chart- 90 degree full value wind is 13 mph.
    Target at 600yds with 6mph gun.
    Hold is 1.2 mils right. (.6 x 2)

    So, for example, a 25mph wind from 1230 would be the equivalent to a 7mph full value wind, if I’m reading it correctly?
     

    Skookum

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    Not to criticize, but it looks as annotated, that winds from 12:00 and 6:00 are full value when they should be 0 mph.

    We all know what you are going for, but those 2 columns don't fit the established pattern.
     

    Jack Master

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    Not to criticize, but it looks as annotated, that winds from 12:00 and 6:00 are full value when they should be 0 mph.

    We all know what you are going for, but those 2 columns don't fit the established pattern.

    Yes. I agree. They are zero. The only reason I put the true wind speed there was to make the chart faster/easier to use. I could change them to zero I'd you'd like to see the difference.
     

    brianf

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    Can someone check the 25 mph outer ring

    I think I read the thread.

    Does it take a 25 at 3;00 (full
    Value)

    And that converts to a 33 mph at 2:00?

    Wind becomes less “effective” the farther you move from perpendicular.
     

    Skookum

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    Yes. I agree. They are zero. The only reason I put the true wind speed there was to make the chart faster/easier to use. I could change them to zero I'd you'd like to see the difference.
    I really appreciate people that put forth this kind of effort.

    Don't change it on my suggestion unless you really think it would be a helpful clarification.
     

    Jack Master

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    Can someone check the 25 mph outer ring

    I think I read the thread.

    Does it take a 25 at 3;00 (full
    Value)

    And that converts to a 33 mph at 2:00?

    Wind becomes less “effective” the farther you move from perpendicular.

    Brian. Good catch. That should be 22 rather than 33. (25mph x 0.86=21.5) I'll update this on monday. Thanks
     

    MilSpecOkie

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    This is a wind rose that completes the sin of the wind angle for you.

    Example.
    True wing is 15mph at 2 o'clock.
    From chart- 90 degree full value wind is 13 mph.
    Target at 600yds with 6mph gun.
    Hold is 1.2 mils right. (.6 x 2)

    You have a typo. 60°, not 90° is 13 mph.
     

    Jack Master

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    You have a typo. 60°, not 90° is 13 mph.

    The intention was to say a 15 mph wind at 2 o'clock [60 deg] has a 90 deg wind correction [cross vector of wind angle] of 13 mph.

    I think I said it correct above, we might just be reading it a bit different. As long as you've got the concept is the important part. Respectfuly, If you still think it's a typeo, show me how you would have written it. This is sometimes hard to convey and maybe it can help me going forward to describe this a way people easily understand. Thanks.

    Edit. I've read it 2 more times. I can see how you may have thought it was a typeo. No worries.
     

    LawnMM

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    This is a wind rose that completes the sin of the wind angle for you.

    Example.
    True wing is 15mph at 2 o'clock.
    From chart- 90 degree full value wind is 13 mph.
    Target at 600yds with 6mph gun.
    Hold is 1.2 mils right. (.6 x 2)

    Am I reading the rose wrong? 15mph appears between the 3rd and 4th speed ring, which would put the 90 equivalent around 17.5mph.

    6mph at 600 being a .6 x 3 = 1.8 for the full value hold on a 13mph wind at 2pm. ?

    Edited to add, not nit picking just checking my own understanding. Would be good to shrink this and print it as a waterproof sticker for the Kestrel impeller cover.
     

    Jack Master

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    Am I reading the rose wrong? 15mph appears between the 3rd and 4th speed ring, which would put the 90 equivalent around 17.5mph.

    6mph at 600 being a .6 x 3 = 1.8 for the full value hold on a 13mph wind at 2pm. ?

    Edited to add, not nit picking just checking my own understanding. Would be good to shrink this and print it as a waterproof sticker for the Kestrel impeller cover.

    Yes. I think you are reading it wrong. 15mph is the actual speed of the wind, the speed from your wind meter if you have one. Then reading the number in the cart at the angle of the wind in the 15mph ring gives you the 90 degree vector of the wind (13 mph at 2 o'clock) which your wind hold is based on.

    Note. At 12 o'clock and 6 o'clock the wind is actually zero but I put the 5, 10, 15 and 20 in those blocks to make the chart easier to read.
     

    LawnMM

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    Guess that makes sense, the meter measures full value wind since you aim the back directly into it.

    So if you start with that as full value, change the value with the rose based on the angle... that's what you base the hold on?

    Think I'm tracking now. ?
     

    MilSpecOkie

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    The intention was to say a 15 mph wind at 2 o'clock [60 deg] has a 90 deg wind correction [cross vector of wind angle] of 13 mph.

    I think I said it correct above, we might just be reading it a bit different. As long as you've got the concept is the important part. Respectfuly, If you still think it's a typeo, show me how you would have written it. This is sometimes hard to convey and maybe it can help me going forward to describe this a way people easily understand. Thanks.

    Edit. I've read it 2 more times. I can see how you may have thought it was a typeo. No worries.

    You are correct, I made a mistake in reading it. Sorry if I confused anyone.
     
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    Dthomas3523

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    Minuteman
  • Jan 31, 2018
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    Can someone check the 25 mph outer ring

    I think I read the thread.

    Does it take a 25 at 3;00 (full
    Value)

    And that converts to a 33 mph at 2:00?

    Wind becomes less “effective” the farther you move from perpendicular.

    David Tubb has a theory that a 230 and 330 affect bullet flight more so than 3:00.

    Not really relevant to this thread, but it’s an interesting theory.
     

    Jack Master

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    Aug 7, 2018
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    Guess that makes sense, the meter measures full value wind since you aim the back directly into it.

    So if you start with that as full value, change the value with the rose based on the angle... that's what you base the hold on?

    Think I'm tracking now. ?
    Correct. You're on it now.
     

    Jack Master

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    Aug 7, 2018
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    So, I've update this wind rose again.

    1 - Corrected the 25mph at 2, 4, 8 and 10 to 22mph
    2 - 2nd file has zeros for the head and tail wind. I like it better with the actual wind speed in this area to read it faster. Let me know what you like best.

    @brianf
    Wind Rose - Corrected wind speed for Angle.jpg



    @Skookum
    Wind Rose Wind Rose - Zeros.jpg
     

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    • Wind Rose - Corrected wind speed for Angle.pdf
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    • Wind Rose Wind Rose - Zeros.pdf
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