XM7 worries from the field.

Wrong

Computers being smarter and faster don’t replace people doing the manual labor involved in a resupply or refit. That FARP didn’t establish itself and an order of operations to effectively and efficiently complete the resupply task.


Even more wronger

Tanks crews do their own heavy lifting, there is no ammo carrier. See reference to FARP and how they get new shit on board

Mostly wrong

The 198 has been replaced by the 777, which is the ONLY platform you mentioned that would have a butterfingers drop a primer in the mud. The others are self propelled and have floors out of the mud.

Even the 777 would mostly likely be in a fire base or surrounded by people providing security so the string pullers wouldn’t be super frantic(with the exception of some instances)
If I remember correctly, the 777 is only lighter, based on some aluminum where there used to be steel. My first enlistment, in 1996 I was a 13B, assigned to a 198, fired the 155's prior to the crusader and the paladin. I've never been in a tank in my life. I'm not expert on any of that shit. Even my arty experience is almost 30 years old. This entire conversation has spun into a bullshit gotcha game. I've been speaking in broad strokes about development and you're trying to pin me down on details. I honestly don't give a shit about any of the details because the tech moves quickly. I have no interest in wasting time studying weapons systems that don't help me Bush hog my farm. The concept of technology reducing the number of people required to complete combat tasks is old as time. It has happened continually forever. To assume it won't continue and be aided by AI developments is kinda silly. We seem to disagree about the rate at which it will happen, so, it's silly, because you're crystal ball looks just like mine. We are both guessing what will happen. Like I said, let's come back here in a decade and see where we are. Cheers..
 
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The infantry (including Special Forces) may eventually be issued the XM7 and XM250.

In my time I had a Big Army issued M16A2 musket and Beretta in the arms room in nice tidy racks. Directly across would be our camouflaged CAR-15s with doo-dads and .45s.

Today it's M4s and Glock 19s.

The same will happen with XM7s if there's no advantage..
 
I don't think it really matters what caliber the weapon comes in -- the United States Army goes a poor job teaching soldiers to engage targets at 300 Meters and beyond, let alone farther against a moving and turtled-up foe.

I would beg to differ on the point of infantry. You may control the sea and air, but land is controlled by people. The Straits of Malacca have to be held or controlled by soldiers on the ground. Naval, air, and logistic ports and bases are secured by occupation forces or otherwise affected by commandos, partisan-guerrillas, and saboteurs -- as history has proven.

Artillery and drones inflict over 80% of the casualties on both sides in Ukraine. They're trying to kill humans (the infantry).

If it isn't for those pesky humans an invading power could just hoist its flag and say, "This is now mine."
I think we’ve reached a point, like has happened several times in history before, where a particular innovation significantly changed tactics and made certain trends obsolete. Breech-loading firearms allowing soldiers to go prone, ironclad ships that made wooden ships obsolete almost overnight, repeating firearms that allowed unimaginable volumes of fire, aerial reconnaissance, the telegraph, submarine, airplane, tank, machine-gun, etc.

If we assume similarly-equipped dismounted infantry forces who both have UAS with FPV-targeted munitions that can drop a small mortar round-sized warhead on individual soldiers in fighting positions or on the move, it makes zero sense to employ Infantry against Infantry unless you just want to waste bodies.

Even if we seize objectives and key terrain, buildings, blocking positions, whatever, those forces will be vulnerable and attrited unless the enemy’s ability to project UAS and artillery on them is destroyed.

The way we fight already at big picture FSCO level is with air power in the lead, destroying all the POL, airfields, munitions storage facilities, cratering runways, taxiways, parked aircraft sheltered or unsheltered (to include heavy, medium and rotary wing lift aircraft), EW aircraft, tankers, AWACs, SAM sites and their Radars, perimeter defense Radars, C4ISR nodes, power stations, intersections, bridges, logistics chains, rail yards, etc. etc.

So if we come out of the gate doing that, there is no real way for any threat infantry to deploy, project their limited force (including UAS), get resupplied, or establish any type of credible threat. Any maritime troops caught out at sea will have multiple anti-ship weapons targeting them, including a new JDAM quick-sink mode that is a software upgrade to the existing JDAM, no hardware. That’s on top of all the LRASM anti-ship missiles we already have, which are stealth missile bodies with multi-mode NAV and targeting in denied GPS environments, with threat node avoidance, and resulting extremely-unfair pk. Stuff that is far-superior to what India just used against Pakistan to shut down their air bases overnight.

iu


Those Chicom troop-carriers and tank-landing ships would be some of the juiciest targets for every attack submarine Captain, USN & USMC Fighter/Attack Squadron in-theater as well, so the maritime force projection platforms we’re seeing from the PLN is really strange, unless they have a friend in the WH and Taiwan Presidency simultaneously.

iu


The brutal humiliation China would face in FSCO would make Desert Storm look like a picnic. There would be no way for them to move armor or infantry units in-theater once the airfields and ports are shut down. This is without even discussing the air threat and OCA executed by numerical and qualitative superiority from US, Australian, JADF, and ROKAF 5th Gen fighters.

Everyone likes to look at numbers of the US only, without counting all the PACOM partner nation fighters and naval assets. Japan, as one example, is on the books for 400 late block RGM-109Es Tomahawks.

Even if they initiate with a massive Cyber War attack against the US Mainland and PACOM bases, baseline capabilities still run without that. Assuming Cyber and even 25% attrition against our air and sea assets, the airfields and ships still all get hit with the same numbers of weapons because of how redundant the targeting is with weapons allocation across the partner nations and US services.

This is before we even talk about US Army and USMC Long-Range Fires.

What I could see is for all the artificial islands they built, whatever hold-outs they have at each of those islands would need to be policed-up, but you can just let them starve after DEAD-ing their SHORAD platforms. No reason to waste US or coalition lives fighting them directly on the ground. Literally let them starve if you don’t want to cluster munition them, or bathe them in CS for a while.

iu


This is why I suspect China will do everything in their power to trigger another 9/11-style event that will distract and waste US combat power somewhere else in the world, as far from the Pacific as possible. Then we can talk about Infantry, but when I run through the strategic-level events for FSCO with them, I have a hard time seeing how Infantry even gets to the fight across the distances involved. It would be a strategic mistake to deploy infantry for them in that type of environment, where air transports that might make it off the runway fly deeper into a mesh of weapons that mean nothing but flaming scrap metal descent for the entire aircraft and its occupants.

iu


Notice I’m not even mentioning US armor in this mix because I just don’t see any role for it, and the USMC was wise to shed themselves of the M-1 Abrams albatross for all the reasons above. If we’re not even seeing a place for armor, then dismounts with small arms make very little sense.

I’m willing to see different perspectives and modify or abandon my assertions, but I really struggle to see what ground I would even want to take with Infantry in the above strategic developments. When I was in South Korea in an Air Assault Battalion on the DMZ, the plan was to move us south once we saw NorKs marshaling anyway, because the DMZ was going to become saturated with artillery and long-range fires, primarily targeting Seoul. Our ISR assets since the 1990s have evolved dramatically to have more foresight into strategic marshaling, so it makes sense when that unit was moved back to Campbell (flagged). We didn’t really have a mission then in the big picture.
 
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You misquoted me. I didn't say there wouldn't be any infantry. There will always be a need for Joe and his rifle. However, the day of the infantryman is at its end. For the last 20k years or so, (and this varies greatly, Alexander and Patton had very different battles), your force would be primarily composed of infantrymen. The plan is based on sending your line troops to meet the enemies line troops and get belt buckle to belt buckle. As we used to say "to close with and kill the enemy". Most of the troops in every military I'm aware of going back as far as we have records were infantrymen. This is what is over now. Imagine organizing 50k ground troops in an actual war in 2025. They wouldn't be alive long enough to get into position. The old days of mortars and artillery being the greatest threat are over. You'll have battalions eliminated in 10 minutes by 16 year old Chinese kids using Xbox controllers. You can't mass troops anymore, unless you want to watch them die. When you can't mass troops, the battlefield has to change. Your primary combat force will not be infantry troops moving forward (again, assuming an actual conflict, not nation building and fighting guerrillas). You don't have to agree with me, let's re-visit this conversation in a decade.
Historically, even going back to Babylonian and Akkadian civilizations, they had Cavalry, Archers, Infantry, Spies, Armor (siege weapons), and heavy infantry armed with spears and large shields. Assyrians had Heavy Cavalry, Sling throwers, Riding Archers, and Heavy Infantry.

There has always been combined arms teams since those times. The technology we’ve developed has just evolved them to create transportation, weapons, and information with farther reach, faster speeds, and far more lethality. You could argue that the Light Infantry with slings were marginal in those conflicts as well, while cavalry, archers, and heavy infantry were the focal areas of combat power.

Look at Alexander at Issus vs the Persians:

iu
 
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Until we have truly autonomous fighting machines(no the drones in Ukraine aren’t there), infantry will still be critical for seizing and holding terrain. Infantry are still vital at the FLOT.
What does the FLOT look like on US terms though? That’s really what I’m trying to see. I don’t see a FLOT.

I see initial potential skirmish zones dictated by who has the better reach, more precise weapons, that generate degrading and attriting effects on their foe sooner. This is before you even have a chance to move troops anywhere, so wherever they are in the initial stages of layers of long-range fires coming from sea, land, and air, is where you will stay IF you survive.

If the US had been prosecuting the war in Ukraine, for example, we watched every mechanized troop and vehicle formation initially stage at points along the border via multiple layers of surveillance platforms. We knew every land route into Ukraine. None of those armored columns would have enjoyed departure of friendly lines into Ukraine very far, if at all.

None of the Russian air assets would survive into the VUL. None of the Russian Black Sea Fleet would survive into launch points for cruise missiles and amphibious disembarkation.

All of the regional air bases within reach near the borders would have been cratered, POL and munition sites in flames, followed by immediate capitulation because they simply would have no capability to fight. The will doesn’t matter, there would be no way to do it.

Infantry doesn’t even factor into the conversation in that type of war. Ukraine has none of those capabilities we do, so they couldn’t stop armored columns from rolling in until they got within ATGM range for dismounts and armor, where they were ambushed and attrited. Russia is fighting a dumb weapon war mindset with some low-end smart weapon capabilities. They still think about artillery and armor as main efforts, with air assets as supporting fires.
 
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I just dont think some of you realize how quickly this AI thing will remake warfare. Exponential development on a scale we can't imagine. Increasing development by factors in the next decade. Developments our brains cannot even fathom today.
We’ve been doing AI in DoD since the 1960s at the latest. If you look at the basic functionality of the ALCM, it had autonomous terrain-avoidance Radar altimeter-based flight control, its own multi-channel Inertial Navigation System, and flew its own waypoints at 500kts at very low level.

That is ancient by modern missile standards. It’s just that we didn’t talk about those kinds of system capabilities much in the open, so I’ve watched common core math emerge way after those times, so that now the teachers were raised on regressive logic that is taught to the new generation of deteriorating schools.

Some of the missiles now talk to each other, prioritize targets on their own logic matrices, counter countermeasures, adapt to GPS-denial with ease, avoid air defense nodes, and set up attack vectors from unexpected directions.

The stuff people are seeing in Ukraine is antiquated trash compared to our mid-level and many systems we replaced decades ago. Difference is we have a budget and armies of engineers who are paid well, whereas Russia and Ukraine don’t and never did compared to us.

Older millennials with no STEM backgrounds have been making a lot of statements about what AI will or won’t do, without knowing what’s been out there all along.
 
To assume it won't continue and be aided by AI developments is kinda silly.
Aid is correct, replace or significantly reduce is a hard no.

Hell there are more electronic gadgets in play now than there used to be so that is solid proof new tech will always move into play. Boots will never be replaced, period end of that story.

Now we can get back to the issues this weapon system brings to the table. I apologize to @Terry Cross for dragging this in the wrong direction. I already poked fun at you once today, I’ll leave your thread in peace
 
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1.4 million conscripts don't concern me unless they are on the way to America, which will never happen.

Nobody is coming to kill us. This scare tactic bullshit is why we've been sucked into every single war we've wasted American lives on since WW1. If there isn't a standing threat, we create a paper tiger so we can keep funneling money into the MIC. Don't drink the kool aid.
the russians aren't coming the russians aren't coming.......they never were , i want my under-desk time back
 
Jason St. John came from 3rd Ranger Battalion and the Army Marksmanship Unit. He, Robby Johnson, and Jared Van Aalst were some killing muldoons with sniper rifles. The three also served on the Army Rifle Team, Pistol Team, and Combat shooting teams.
Jared was a friend and a total stud that carried more than his load.

He sure did mentor a lot of younger (and older) dudes without knowing it. I've got his pic and KIA announcement on my shop wall to keep his contributions and heart alive.
 
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1.4 million conscripts don't concern me unless they are on the way to America, which will never happen.
It will happen but only in the form of an occupation / aid force after they sit patiently for a collapse that they or someone else precipitated.

Nobody is coming to kill us.
They don't have to invade us to kill us.

They simply kick the correct domino over for 90% of the country will eat itself and dissolve into balkanized territories.
Whether it is EMP, power grid, food/water supply or whatever.
All they would have to do is have enablers in place at strategic locations to keep the disinformation and distrust going, just like WE do when we have SF working in country to destabilize.

And they can do this with a few $billion in support rather than $trillions. Pretty good ROI.

The only way any remnants of our Republic could survive relatively intact is if some of our allies braved the fucked up borders to lend supplies and assistance. Since they are all compromised and anemic, I wouldn't hold my breath for that.

This scare tactic bullshit is why we've been sucked into every single war we've wasted American lives on since WW1. If there isn't a standing threat, we create a paper tiger so we can keep funneling money into the MIC. Don't drink the kool aid.
I hate to say it, but you're not wrong here.
 
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Aid is correct, replace or significantly reduce is a hard no.

Hell there are more electronic gadgets in play now than there used to be so that is solid proof new tech will always move into play. Boots will never be replaced, period end of that story.

Now we can get back to the issues this weapon system brings to the table. I apologize to @Terry Cross for dragging this in the wrong direction. I already poked fun at you once today, I’ll leave your thread in peace
All good my friend and while the thread has taken legs on a few tangents, that is all part of the debate and schizophrenia of Sniper'sHide. :)


To sum up my thoughts on the new Sig rifles......

Yes, Sig is simply delivering on what the MIC wants. They competed against other companies based on specs and needs they didn't write.
They (US Mil Bureaucracy ) are trying to do too much and it shows.
Typical government thought process of throw money at it and it will be solved.

I believe the new rifles are too heavy and too complicated. I think they have more drawbacks in a serious conflict than benefits.

Several of us believe that once all the AI, smart bombs, lasers, precision guided munitions and robots are done wiping each other out as "high priority targets", the war will still be fought and won by undernourished, bruised, bloodied, ill supported, concussed and unwashed but devoted fighters using rifles and a few grenades along with whatever C4 and Claymores they can round up.

As far as the importance of a good rifle in today's battlefield, I sure wouldn't want me or my son deployed ANYWHERE without a GOOD rifle and a piss load of ammo available. I don't care what kind of drones, robots, AI or CAS that I have available on demand, I WANT A RIFLE. . . . . just not this heavy bitch that relies on batteries and a questionable ammo supply.
 
If we're looking at Southeast Asia re: pure human operational factors -- there are reasons the lightweight and efficient M16A1 and CAR-15 were and still are so popular.

It's hot and typically wet and / or humid in most places, some with hills and mountains. In many, humans are in heat stress the moment you walk out of an air-con space. Nobody wants to carry anything heavy for extended periods, wearing body armor that keeps you from cooling and drying.

Even deep within the Chinese mainland where there are wide open rifle spaces the reds would carry PPsh-41 and 43 burp guns for close fire superiority on isolated Japanese formations. The Chinese philosophy was the SKS served as the battle rifle (like an M1 Garand) while the AK-47 replaced pistol caliber burp guns. The Vietnamese put that on its head when they started arming guerrillas who needed individual firepower.

Now that both sides have SAPI and MICH they have to balance range and penetration against numbers.

Which side taps out first?
 
I think the real takeaway of all of this can be summed up by looking how we would handle it in the private sector.

If a company failed to make a successful product that answered end-user needs dating back to the 1950s, they would go out of business. Only artificial influence could keep them afloat.

This is the story of US Army small arms. They got the .276 Pedersen Garand right already by 1930, but were later overridden by CoS McAurthur in sticking with the heavier .30 caliber cartridge, maybe due to budget constraints on the Army caused by the Great Depression. This was a missed opportunity with cascading effects we are still suffering from today. Look at this beauty, with its 10rd en block clip, relatively lightweight, low-recoiling, hard-hitting performance.

article-276-pedersen-and-the-other-garand-2.jpg.webp


The conventional US Army failed to oversee the development of a successful service rifle or machine-gun ever since. The only successful service rifles and machine-guns were driven by the USAF and foreign nations. The M-1 Carbine was an exception that was developed for combat support and support troops due to the excessive weight of the .30 cal M1 Garand.

The M14 and M60 were failures for different reasons. The M14 production of receivers wasn’t held to a common TDP and there were all sorts of problems with initial production. It was conceptually a failure from the start for using a heavy cartridge, resulting in a heavy rifle with limited basic load. The idea that it could replace the M1 & M2 Carbines was fundamentally unsound, which really screwed over many combat arms, combat support, and support personnel basic weapon issue to either an M14 or M1911, with a few M3A1 Grease Guns remaining for Tankers.

The M60 was a hybrid between the German FG42 paratroop rifle with its half-bullpup layout, but fed from a sheet metal MG42 feed tray and feed tray cover assemblies instead of the side-feeding magazine of the FG42. Great for compactness and ergonomics (one of my favorite machine-guns in that regard), but a malf-o-matic that was hard to keep running. It took us decades to finally replace it with a MAG58 rebranded as M240.

The AR-15 was pushed by General Curtis LeMay within weeks of Army Ordnance Board declaring it totally unsuited for Infantry use. Initial orders were for USAF, then expanded to SOF in US Army, US Navy, and British SAS. Big Army begrudgingly went along with it as a stop-gap for their SPIW, seeing only a short-term future for the AR-15 until they could manifest their super engineer albatross weapon system that was doomed from the start.

iu


The FN Minimi that won the 2nd SAW competition of the 1970s was of course a Belgian combination of the AK and MAG58. US Army found a way to make it heavier initially with the gay mag-feed option, then more ways to make it even heavier than the E1 when they did the M249E2 with its heavier stock and heat shield. The earlier SAW trials are another example of a missed opportunity to continue the development of an intermediate cartridge, namely the 6x45 SAW.

iu


XM177E2, Colt 653, 723, 727, XM4, and M4 development was really carried along by organizations other than big Army.

So to me, we’re shooting ourselves in the foot when looking to the conventional Army when it comes to small arms development. They haven’t shown much care or investment in small arms programs from an end-user perspective that makes any sense. They have constantly placed people over these programs who are simply out-of-touch with soldiers and their needs. PEO Soldier engineers literally told us that they purposely engineer 85% solutions because they have to think about job security. Therefore, equipment is built to fail or not meet what soldiers are actually asking for, so they can come back with V2.0, 3.0, etc.

But we do have organizations that know exactly how to solicit, down-select, work with contractors, help develop, and see through production of small arms that are so successful, that not only do they out-perform big Army designs and get adopted in larger scale within the US than anticipated, they also get adopted by coalition partner forces who reject their own service rifles (SAS using AR-15s instead of SA-80s for example, Aussie SAS using AR-15s instead of F88 AUGs, Canada ditching the commonwealth SLRs for C7s and C8s, etc.). This was already true by the early 1980s once Canada came on board with C7. Other Commonwealth nations’ SOF were using AR-15s since the 1960s.

When you look at JSOC input into the AR-15 design and its accessories since the late 1970s (early own-the-night configurations), they have really been the pace-setter for small arms development in not only the US and NATO, but the world.

So if we are to be successful, we should cut off the retards and reward the golden children. We can do it for a fraction of the budget as well. There are plenty of other major defense systems that have actual money behind them. Trying to make a small arms program cost what aerospace does is retarded, especially with the insane price of 6.8x51 ammunition.

We gave the Army a Century to cover down on what should be its domain in small arms development, and it has failed as a rule, so it’s time to cut our losses and assign small arms development elsewhere. Most of the work is already done.