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XM7 worries from the field.

Wrong

Computers being smarter and faster don’t replace people doing the manual labor involved in a resupply or refit. That FARP didn’t establish itself and an order of operations to effectively and efficiently complete the resupply task.


Even more wronger

Tanks crews do their own heavy lifting, there is no ammo carrier. See reference to FARP and how they get new shit on board

Mostly wrong

The 198 has been replaced by the 777, which is the ONLY platform you mentioned that would have a butterfingers drop a primer in the mud. The others are self propelled and have floors out of the mud.

Even the 777 would mostly likely be in a fire base or surrounded by people providing security so the string pullers wouldn’t be super frantic(with the exception of some instances)
If I remember correctly, the 777 is only lighter, based on some aluminum where there used to be steel. My first enlistment, in 1996 I was a 13B, assigned to a 198, fired the 155's prior to the crusader and the paladin. I've never been in a tank in my life. I'm not expert on any of that shit. Even my arty experience is almost 30 years old. This entire conversation has spun into a bullshit gotcha game. I've been speaking in broad strokes about development and you're trying to pin me down on details. I honestly don't give a shit about any of the details because the tech moves quickly. I have no interest in wasting time studying weapons systems that don't help me Bush hog my farm. The concept of technology reducing the number of people required to complete combat tasks is old as time. It has happened continually forever. To assume it won't continue and be aided by AI developments is kinda silly. We seem to disagree about the rate at which it will happen, so, it's silly, because you're crystal ball looks just like mine. We are both guessing what will happen. Like I said, let's come back here in a decade and see where we are. Cheers..
 
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The infantry (including Special Forces) may eventually be issued the XM7 and XM250.

In my time I had a Big Army issued M16A2 musket and Beretta in the arms room in nice tidy racks. Directly across would be our camouflaged CAR-15s with doo-dads and .45s.

Today it's M4s and Glock 19s.

The same will happen with XM7s if there's no advantage..
 
I don't think it really matters what caliber the weapon comes in -- the United States Army goes a poor job teaching soldiers to engage targets at 300 Meters and beyond, let alone farther against a moving and turtled-up foe.

I would beg to differ on the point of infantry. You may control the sea and air, but land is controlled by people. The Straits of Malacca have to be held or controlled by soldiers on the ground. Naval, air, and logistic ports and bases are secured by occupation forces or otherwise affected by commandos, partisan-guerrillas, and saboteurs -- as history has proven.

Artillery and drones inflict over 80% of the casualties on both sides in Ukraine. They're trying to kill humans (the infantry).

If it isn't for those pesky humans an invading power could just hoist its flag and say, "This is now mine."
I think we’ve reached a point, like has happened several times in history before, where a particular innovation significantly changed tactics and made certain trends obsolete. Breech-loading firearms allowing soldiers to go prone, ironclad ships that made wooden ships obsolete almost overnight, repeating firearms that allowed unimaginable volumes of fire, aerial reconnaissance, the telegraph, submarine, airplane, tank, machine-gun, etc.

If we assume similarly-equipped dismounted infantry forces who both have UAS with FPV-targeted munitions that can drop a small mortar round-sized warhead on individual soldiers in fighting positions or on the move, it makes zero sense to employ Infantry against Infantry unless you just want to waste bodies.

Even if we seize objectives and key terrain, buildings, blocking positions, whatever, those forces will be vulnerable and attrited unless the enemy’s ability to project UAS and artillery on them is destroyed.

The way we fight already at big picture FSCO level is with air power in the lead, destroying all the POL, airfields, munitions storage facilities, cratering runways, taxiways, parked aircraft sheltered or unsheltered (to include heavy, medium and rotary wing lift aircraft), EW aircraft, tankers, AWACs, SAM sites and their Radars, perimeter defense Radars, C4ISR nodes, power stations, intersections, bridges, logistics chains, rail yards, etc. etc.

So if we come out of the gate doing that, there is no real way for any threat infantry to deploy, project their limited force (including UAS), get resupplied, or establish any type of credible threat. Any maritime troops caught out at sea will have multiple anti-ship weapons targeting them, including a new JDAM quick-sink mode that is a software upgrade to the existing JDAM, no hardware. That’s on top of all the LRASM anti-ship missiles we already have, which are stealth missile bodies with multi-mode NAV and targeting in denied GPS environments, with threat node avoidance, and resulting extremely-unfair pk. Stuff that is far-superior to what India just used against Pakistan to shut down their air bases overnight.

iu


Those Chicom troop-carriers and tank-landing ships would be some of the juiciest targets for every attack submarine Captain, USN & USMC Fighter/Attack Squadron in-theater as well, so the maritime force projection platforms we’re seeing from the PLN is really strange, unless they have a friend in the WH and Taiwan Presidency simultaneously.

iu


The brutal humiliation China would face in FSCO would make Desert Storm look like a picnic. There would be no way for them to move armor or infantry units in-theater once the airfields and ports are shut down. This is without even discussing the air threat and OCA executed by numerical and qualitative superiority from US, Australian, JADF, and ROKAF 5th Gen fighters.

Everyone likes to look at numbers of the US only, without counting all the PACOM partner nation fighters and naval assets. Japan, as one example, is on the books for 400 late block RGM-109Es Tomahawks.

Even if they initiate with a massive Cyber War attack against the US Mainland and PACOM bases, baseline capabilities still run without that. Assuming Cyber and even 25% attrition against our air and sea assets, the airfields and ships still all get hit with the same numbers of weapons because of how redundant the targeting is with weapons allocation across the partner nations and US services.

This is before we even talk about US Army and USMC Long-Range Fires.

What I could see is for all the artificial islands they built, whatever hold-outs they have at each of those islands would need to be policed-up, but you can just let them starve after DEAD-ing their SHORAD platforms. No reason to waste US or coalition lives fighting them directly on the ground. Literally let them starve if you don’t want to cluster munition them, or bathe them in CS for a while.

iu


This is why I suspect China will do everything in their power to trigger another 9/11-style event that will distract and waste US combat power somewhere else in the world, as far from the Pacific as possible. Then we can talk about Infantry, but when I run through the strategic-level events for FSCO with them, I have a hard time seeing how Infantry even gets to the fight across the distances involved. It would be a strategic mistake to deploy infantry for them in that type of environment, where air transports that might make it off the runway fly deeper into a mesh of weapons that mean nothing but flaming scrap metal descent for the entire aircraft and its occupants.

iu


Notice I’m not even mentioning US armor in this mix because I just don’t see any role for it, and the USMC was wise to shed themselves of the M-1 Abrams albatross for all the reasons above. If we’re not even seeing a place for armor, then dismounts with small arms make very little sense.

I’m willing to see different perspectives and modify or abandon my assertions, but I really struggle to see what ground I would even want to take with Infantry in the above strategic developments. When I was in South Korea in an Air Assault Battalion on the DMZ, the plan was to move us south once we saw NorKs marshaling anyway, because the DMZ was going to become saturated with artillery and long-range fires, primarily targeting Seoul. Our ISR assets since the 1990s have evolved dramatically to have more foresight into strategic marshaling, so it makes sense when that unit was moved back to Campbell (flagged). We didn’t really have a mission then in the big picture.
 
You misquoted me. I didn't say there wouldn't be any infantry. There will always be a need for Joe and his rifle. However, the day of the infantryman is at its end. For the last 20k years or so, (and this varies greatly, Alexander and Patton had very different battles), your force would be primarily composed of infantrymen. The plan is based on sending your line troops to meet the enemies line troops and get belt buckle to belt buckle. As we used to say "to close with and kill the enemy". Most of the troops in every military I'm aware of going back as far as we have records were infantrymen. This is what is over now. Imagine organizing 50k ground troops in an actual war in 2025. They wouldn't be alive long enough to get into position. The old days of mortars and artillery being the greatest threat are over. You'll have battalions eliminated in 10 minutes by 16 year old Chinese kids using Xbox controllers. You can't mass troops anymore, unless you want to watch them die. When you can't mass troops, the battlefield has to change. Your primary combat force will not be infantry troops moving forward (again, assuming an actual conflict, not nation building and fighting guerrillas). You don't have to agree with me, let's re-visit this conversation in a decade.
Historically, even going back to Babylonian and Akkadian civilizations, they had Cavalry, Archers, Infantry, Spies, Armor (siege weapons), and heavy infantry armed with spears and large shields. Assyrians had Heavy Cavalry, Sling throwers, Riding Archers, and Heavy Infantry.

There has always been combined arms teams since those times. The technology we’ve developed has just evolved them to create transportation, weapons, and information with farther reach, faster speeds, and far more lethality. You could argue that the Light Infantry with slings were marginal in those conflicts as well, while cavalry, archers, and heavy infantry were the focal areas of combat power.

Look at Alexander at Issus vs the Persians:

iu
 
Until we have truly autonomous fighting machines(no the drones in Ukraine aren’t there), infantry will still be critical for seizing and holding terrain. Infantry are still vital at the FLOT.
What does the FLOT look like on US terms though? That’s really what I’m trying to see. I don’t see a FLOT.

I see initial potential skirmish zones dictated by who has the better reach, more precise weapons, that generate degrading and attriting effects on their foe sooner. This is before you even have a chance to move troops anywhere, so wherever they are in the initial stages of layers of long-range fires coming from sea, land, and air, is where you will stay IF you survive.

If the US had been prosecuting the war in Ukraine, for example, we watched every mechanized troop and vehicle formation initially stage at points along the border via multiple layers of surveillance platforms. We knew every land route into Ukraine. None of those armored columns would have enjoyed departure of friendly lines into Ukraine very far, if at all.

None of the Russian air assets would survive into the VUL. None of the Russian Black Sea Fleet would survive into launch points for cruise missiles and amphibious disembarkation.

All of the regional air bases within reach near the borders would have been cratered, POL and munition sites in flames, followed by immediate capitulation because they simply would have no capability to fight. The will doesn’t matter, there would be no way to do it.

Infantry doesn’t even factor into the conversation in that type of war. Ukraine has none of those capabilities we do, so they couldn’t stop armored columns from rolling in until they got within ATGM range for dismounts and armor, where they were ambushed and attrited. Russia is fighting a dumb weapon war mindset with some low-end smart weapon capabilities. They still think about artillery and armor as main efforts, with air assets as supporting fires.
 
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I just dont think some of you realize how quickly this AI thing will remake warfare. Exponential development on a scale we can't imagine. Increasing development by factors in the next decade. Developments our brains cannot even fathom today.
We’ve been doing AI in DoD since the 1960s at the latest. If you look at the basic functionality of the ALCM, it had autonomous terrain-avoidance Radar altimeter-based flight control, its own multi-channel Inertial Navigation System, and flew its own waypoints at 500kts at very low level.

That is ancient by modern missile standards. It’s just that we didn’t talk about those kinds of system capabilities much in the open, so I’ve watched common core math emerge way after those times, so that now the teachers were raised on regressive logic that is taught to the new generation of deteriorating schools.

Some of the missiles now talk to each other, prioritize targets on their own logic matrices, counter countermeasures, adapt to GPS-denial with ease, avoid air defense nodes, and set up attack vectors from unexpected directions.

The stuff people are seeing in Ukraine is antiquated trash compared to our mid-level and many systems we replaced decades ago. Difference is we have a budget and armies of engineers who are paid well, whereas Russia and Ukraine don’t and never did compared to us.

Older millennials with no STEM backgrounds have been making a lot of statements about what AI will or won’t do, without knowing what’s been out there all along.
 
To assume it won't continue and be aided by AI developments is kinda silly.
Aid is correct, replace or significantly reduce is a hard no.

Hell there are more electronic gadgets in play now than there used to be so that is solid proof new tech will always move into play. Boots will never be replaced, period end of that story.

Now we can get back to the issues this weapon system brings to the table. I apologize to @Terry Cross for dragging this in the wrong direction. I already poked fun at you once today, I’ll leave your thread in peace
 
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1.4 million conscripts don't concern me unless they are on the way to America, which will never happen.

Nobody is coming to kill us. This scare tactic bullshit is why we've been sucked into every single war we've wasted American lives on since WW1. If there isn't a standing threat, we create a paper tiger so we can keep funneling money into the MIC. Don't drink the kool aid.
the russians aren't coming the russians aren't coming.......they never were , i want my under-desk time back
 
Jason St. John came from 3rd Ranger Battalion and the Army Marksmanship Unit. He, Robby Johnson, and Jared Van Aalst were some killing muldoons with sniper rifles. The three also served on the Army Rifle Team, Pistol Team, and Combat shooting teams.
Jared was a friend and a total stud that carried more than his load.

He sure did mentor a lot of younger (and older) dudes without knowing it. I've got his pic and KIA announcement on my shop wall to keep his contributions and heart alive.
 
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1.4 million conscripts don't concern me unless they are on the way to America, which will never happen.
It will happen but only in the form of an occupation / aid force after they sit patiently for a collapse that they or someone else precipitated.

Nobody is coming to kill us.
They don't have to invade us to kill us.

They simply kick the correct domino over for 90% of the country will eat itself and dissolve into balkanized territories.
Whether it is EMP, power grid, food/water supply or whatever.
All they would have to do is have enablers in place at strategic locations to keep the disinformation and distrust going, just like WE do when we have SF working in country to destabilize.

And they can do this with a few $billion in support rather than $trillions. Pretty good ROI.

The only way any remnants of our Republic could survive relatively intact is if some of our allies braved the fucked up borders to lend supplies and assistance. Since they are all compromised and anemic, I wouldn't hold my breath for that.

This scare tactic bullshit is why we've been sucked into every single war we've wasted American lives on since WW1. If there isn't a standing threat, we create a paper tiger so we can keep funneling money into the MIC. Don't drink the kool aid.
I hate to say it, but you're not wrong here.
 
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Aid is correct, replace or significantly reduce is a hard no.

Hell there are more electronic gadgets in play now than there used to be so that is solid proof new tech will always move into play. Boots will never be replaced, period end of that story.

Now we can get back to the issues this weapon system brings to the table. I apologize to @Terry Cross for dragging this in the wrong direction. I already poked fun at you once today, I’ll leave your thread in peace
All good my friend and while the thread has taken legs on a few tangents, that is all part of the debate and schizophrenia of Sniper'sHide. :)


To sum up my thoughts on the new Sig rifles......

Yes, Sig is simply delivering on what the MIC wants. They competed against other companies based on specs and needs they didn't write.
They (US Mil Bureaucracy ) are trying to do too much and it shows.
Typical government thought process of throw money at it and it will be solved.

I believe the new rifles are too heavy and too complicated. I think they have more drawbacks in a serious conflict than benefits.

Several of us believe that once all the AI, smart bombs, lasers, precision guided munitions and robots are done wiping each other out as "high priority targets", the war will still be fought and won by undernourished, bruised, bloodied, ill supported, concussed and unwashed but devoted fighters using rifles and a few grenades along with whatever C4 and Claymores they can round up.

As far as the importance of a good rifle in today's battlefield, I sure wouldn't want me or my son deployed ANYWHERE without a GOOD rifle and a piss load of ammo available. I don't care what kind of drones, robots, AI or CAS that I have available on demand, I WANT A RIFLE. . . . . just not this heavy bitch that relies on batteries and a questionable ammo supply.
 
If we're looking at Southeast Asia re: pure human operational factors -- there are reasons the lightweight and efficient M16A1 and CAR-15 were and still are so popular.

It's hot and typically wet and / or humid in most places, some with hills and mountains. In many, humans are in heat stress the moment you walk out of an air-con space. Nobody wants to carry anything heavy for extended periods, wearing body armor that keeps you from cooling and drying.

Even deep within the Chinese mainland where there are wide open rifle spaces the reds would carry PPsh-41 and 43 burp guns for close fire superiority on isolated Japanese formations. The Chinese philosophy was the SKS served as the battle rifle (like an M1 Garand) while the AK-47 replaced pistol caliber burp guns. The Vietnamese put that on its head when they started arming guerrillas who needed individual firepower.

Now that both sides have SAPI and MICH they have to balance range and penetration against numbers.

Which side taps out first?
 
I think the real takeaway of all of this can be summed up by looking how we would handle it in the private sector.

If a company failed to make a successful product that answered end-user needs dating back to the 1950s, they would go out of business. Only artificial influence could keep them afloat.

This is the story of US Army small arms. They got the .276 Pedersen Garand right already by 1930, but were later overridden by CoS McAurthur in sticking with the heavier .30 caliber cartridge, maybe due to budget constraints on the Army caused by the Great Depression. This was a missed opportunity with cascading effects we are still suffering from today. Look at this beauty, with its 10rd en block clip, relatively lightweight, low-recoiling, hard-hitting performance.

article-276-pedersen-and-the-other-garand-2.jpg.webp


The conventional US Army failed to oversee the development of a successful service rifle or machine-gun ever since. The only successful service rifles and machine-guns were driven by the USAF and foreign nations. The M-1 Carbine was an exception that was developed for combat support and support troops due to the excessive weight of the .30 cal M1 Garand.

The M14 and M60 were failures for different reasons. The M14 production of receivers wasn’t held to a common TDP and there were all sorts of problems with initial production. It was conceptually a failure from the start for using a heavy cartridge, resulting in a heavy rifle with limited basic load. The idea that it could replace the M1 & M2 Carbines was fundamentally unsound, which really screwed over many combat arms, combat support, and support personnel basic weapon issue to either an M14 or M1911, with a few M3A1 Grease Guns remaining for Tankers.

The M60 was a hybrid between the German FG42 paratroop rifle with its half-bullpup layout, but fed from a sheet metal MG42 feed tray and feed tray cover assemblies instead of the side-feeding magazine of the FG42. Great for compactness and ergonomics (one of my favorite machine-guns in that regard), but a malf-o-matic that was hard to keep running. It took us decades to finally replace it with a MAG58 rebranded as M240.

The AR-15 was pushed by General Curtis LeMay within weeks of Army Ordnance Board declaring it totally unsuited for Infantry use. Initial orders were for USAF, then expanded to SOF in US Army, US Navy, and British SAS. Big Army begrudgingly went along with it as a stop-gap for their SPIW, seeing only a short-term future for the AR-15 until they could manifest their super engineer albatross weapon system that was doomed from the start.

iu


The FN Minimi that won the 2nd SAW competition of the 1970s was of course a Belgian combination of the AK and MAG58. US Army found a way to make it heavier initially with the gay mag-feed option, then more ways to make it even heavier than the E1 when they did the M249E2 with its heavier stock and heat shield. The earlier SAW trials are another example of a missed opportunity to continue the development of an intermediate cartridge, namely the 6x45 SAW.

iu


XM177E2, Colt 653, 723, 727, XM4, and M4 development was really carried along by organizations other than big Army.

So to me, we’re shooting ourselves in the foot when looking to the conventional Army when it comes to small arms development. They haven’t shown much care or investment in small arms programs from an end-user perspective that makes any sense. They have constantly placed people over these programs who are simply out-of-touch with soldiers and their needs. PEO Soldier engineers literally told us that they purposely engineer 85% solutions because they have to think about job security. Therefore, equipment is built to fail or not meet what soldiers are actually asking for, so they can come back with V2.0, 3.0, etc.

But we do have organizations that know exactly how to solicit, down-select, work with contractors, help develop, and see through production of small arms that are so successful, that not only do they out-perform big Army designs and get adopted in larger scale within the US than anticipated, they also get adopted by coalition partner forces who reject their own service rifles (SAS using AR-15s instead of SA-80s for example, Aussie SAS using AR-15s instead of F88 AUGs, Canada ditching the commonwealth SLRs for C7s and C8s, etc.). This was already true by the early 1980s once Canada came on board with C7. Other Commonwealth nations’ SOF were using AR-15s since the 1960s.

When you look at JSOC input into the AR-15 design and its accessories since the late 1970s (early own-the-night configurations), they have really been the pace-setter for small arms development in not only the US and NATO, but the world.

So if we are to be successful, we should cut off the retards and reward the golden children. We can do it for a fraction of the budget as well. There are plenty of other major defense systems that have actual money behind them. Trying to make a small arms program cost what aerospace does is retarded, especially with the insane price of 6.8x51 ammunition.

We gave the Army a Century to cover down on what should be its domain in small arms development, and it has failed as a rule, so it’s time to cut our losses and assign small arms development elsewhere. Most of the work is already done.
 
Just eyeballing it, the conventional brass-case .276 (x 51.4mm) Pederson would be about the same dimensions as the hybrid-case 6.8 x 51mm (6.8 Fury).

1747711283783.png


It would probably be the equivalent of todays conventional brass-case SIG 6.8 x 51 training round -- and thus fit into a short-frame AR-10 (XM7).

Back to the Future (1930).

1747712082704.png
 
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Big Army doesn’t know what they want. They think they do…

Almost like they need a team of E-3’s through E-7’s [thinking independently of politically motivated brass], and who have recently been operational, to test and evaluate new potential tools to further evaluate for acquisition… wait, where have I seen this before?

All of this reminds me of the average golfer. (AKA a hacker)

Golfer: Man, my game sucks ass. I can't keep my drive in the fairway.

Salesman: What you need is a new set of these clubs. They hit 25 yards further with a 6% increase in accuracy.

Golfer: You mean they'll help my game?

Salesman: Of course they can. And, with some (a lot of) range practice, you'll be hitting them right down the middle of the fairway.

Golfer: Fuck yeah. I'll take them!

Salesman: Don't forget these new shoes with orthotic soles, and you'll want these new spin regulated balls. They will steer themselves back to center with an off hit. And a $550.00 bag to carry them.

Golfer: Sold. Do you take Visa?




Like the golfing hack, the Army (brass) is trying to buy hits on the enemy with new equipment instead of taking the time, effort and money to actually teach troops how to hit where they aim. (If they are in fact aiming)

On top of that, there's the profit to companies and potential retirement jobs for those who get contracts awarded.

I'm not saying we need to go back to the A-1.
I do think having optics and suppressors is a huge benefit.



Not understanding how to use the supplied equipment is the issue...
 
Like the golfing hack, the Army (brass) is trying to buy hits on the enemy with new equipment instead of taking the time, effort and money to actually teach troops how to hit where they aim. (If they are in fact aiming)
........................

Not understanding how to use the supplied equipment is the issue...
I hate classroom time when teaching but some courses mandate it.
Two of the slides I have sitting on the screen when they walk in on a couple of mornings are to make your same point above.

Gadgets over practice.jpg


61802734_2666616963649733_8425706072076976128_n.jpg
 
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I hate classroom time when teaching but some courses mandate it.
Two of the slides I have sitting on the screen when they walk in on a couple of mornings are to make your same point above.

View attachment 8702446

View attachment 8702447

Equipment before commitment.
vs
Commitment before equipment.

It applies to all kinds of things in life.
Hiking, camping, photography, cycling, off-roading, fishing, tennis, golf, racing, you name it. People try to purchase their way into success instead of actually buying into it.


I do think shooters and golfers are the worst when it comes to purchasing the new, shiny hotness.
 
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Talk about the new shiny hotness...I was a bass tournament fisherman for years, and still love the sport even though I haven't fished a tourney in 2 years. That's an expensive hobby. Price out a typical 20 to 21 ft bass boat loaded with all the necessities to be competitive.
 
All of this reminds me of the average golfer. (AKA a hacker)

Golfer: Man, my game sucks ass. I can't keep my drive in the fairway.

Salesman: What you need is a new set of these clubs. They hit 25 yards further with a 6% increase in accuracy.

Golfer: You mean they'll help my game?

Salesman: Of course they can. And, with some (a lot of) range practice, you'll be hitting them right down the middle of the fairway.

Golfer: Fuck yeah. I'll take them!

Salesman: Don't forget these new shoes with orthotic soles, and you'll want these new spin regulated balls. They will steer themselves back to center with an off hit. And a $550.00 bag to carry them.

Golfer: Sold. Do you take Visa?




Like the golfing hack, the Army (brass) is trying to buy hits on the enemy with new equipment instead of taking the time, effort and money to actually teach troops how to hit where they aim. (If they are in fact aiming)

On top of that, there's the profit to companies and potential retirement jobs for those who get contracts awarded.

I'm not saying we need to go back to the A-1.
I do think having optics and suppressors is a huge benefit.



Not understanding how to use the supplied equipment is the issue...
I don’t even think US Army senior officers are thinking about hits on target when making decisions about small arms.

They already know that small arms play almost zero role in Full Scale Combat Operations, so they don’t really give a rip. If one of the lower self-esteemed Generals wants to whore himself out to some small arms company, they couldn’t care less as there aren’t any numbers that excite them after seeing where the meat actually is, both in terms of actual explosive ordnance delivery in-theater, as well as big money.

Small arms are just not something that matters to them in the big picture. As we see with the M7 and M250, it manifested as a total piece of trash this developmental cycle, and nobody in a decision-making capacity cares. So now Joe will have to embrace the suck some more, especially Mortar teams and Weapons Squad, along with RTOs.

It will be fun to watch how all the attachments deal with it when they show up with their M4A1s and SOPMOD carbines, like USAF, FOs, Combat Engineers, Drone Operators, K-9 Handlers, and other enablers.

The maneuver organization will have to supply ammo to attachments, so they’ll probably complain and say those guys need M7s too. USAF will tell them to pound sand, so they will have to provide 5.56 in the supply line either way.

SOCOM has already made it clear they want nothing to do with NGSW after the gross negligence and failures that plague the systems. This indicates it might last a few years until the obvious sinks in and it’s canned, or they continue to double-down on it as another set of weapons for limited combat arms use.

The ammo cost is going to kill live fire training though.
 
I don’t even think US Army senior officers are thinking about hits on target when making decisions about small arms.

They already know that small arms play almost zero role in Full Scale Combat Operations, so they don’t really give a rip. If one of the lower self-esteemed Generals wants to whore himself out to some small arms company, they couldn’t care less as there aren’t any numbers that excite them after seeing where the meat actually is, both in terms of actual explosive ordnance delivery in-theater, as well as big money.

Small arms are just not something that matters to them in the big picture. As we see with the M7 and M250, it manifested as a total piece of trash this developmental cycle, and nobody in a decision-making capacity cares. So now Joe will have to embrace the suck some more, especially Mortar teams and Weapons Squad, along with RTOs.

It will be fun to watch how all the attachments deal with it when they show up with their M4A1s and SOPMOD carbines, like USAF, FOs, Combat Engineers, Drone Operators, K-9 Handlers, and other enablers.

The maneuver organization will have to supply ammo to attachments, so they’ll probably complain and say those guys need M7s too. USAF will tell them to pound sand, so they will have to provide 5.56 in the supply line either way.

SOCOM has already made it clear they want nothing to do with NGSW after the gross negligence and failures that plague the systems. This indicates it might last a few years until the obvious sinks in and it’s canned, or they continue to double-down on it as another set of weapons for limited combat arms use.

The ammo cost is going to kill live fire training though.
Even in conventional, large scale wars like WWII, approximately 30-40% of casualties come from small arms. Small arms are still very important, even if they’re not the most casualty producing. Senior military leaders know this, or they should.
 
Even in conventional, large scale wars like WWII, approximately 30-40% of casualties come from small arms. Small arms are still very important, even if they’re not the most casualty producing. Senior military leaders know this, or they should.
I think the war in ukraine is the best example of what modern combat is going to evolve into. Some reports show drones are accounting for 70% of the casualties and small arms are only accounting for 4%. Theres going to be some variation in these numbers but small arms are becoming less and less important in the grand scheme of things. Hopefully the Surefire ICAR builds up a good rep and shifts small arms devolpment back into the right direction but we will have to see.
 
You need to be careful about using these stats and historical vignettes for the entirety of your analysis. No one has correctly predicted the course and outcome of any of the conflicts that are currently going on right now prior to reality informing us all in hindsight.

What's ironic about many of the posts here where people are using these arguments is that is exactly what a staff officer will do. And rightly so. It's a very logical thing to do. Especially when you don't have any first hand knowledge or experience. Synthesize experience by borrowing others in the form of case studies. The irony comes in because a lot of the people posting this line of logic are also the first ones to to use the classic E4 rehtoric, "officers don't know what they're doing and are out of touch" slander whenever they can. Yet, here they are, falling into the same line of logic.

Before GWOT we trained for the unknown. You didn't know what combat was going to be like so there was no limit or good enough in your thinking. And you didn't know exactly how you were going to react when you experienced it. In a lot of ways, certain combat experience has led people to incorrect assumptions. To a certain complacency. There's a lot of discussion about what mentality and experience is appropriate to retain from GWOT and what is irrelevant to the future environment. Not everyone agrees. There is a large element of the "unknown" still out there. You don't want to be caught short-handed.

Also, It's obvious there's a lot people talking here who have never lived a life where you are constantly improving every facet of your profession. From your intelligence and targeting, unit SOPs, team tactics, kit and load out, small unit vehicles, night vision, digital force protection, prolonged field care. You don't need stats to justify everything. What stats say every dude on your team needs to know how to use a pistol well? Raise your hand if you've killed multiple people with a pistol? What is the current operational requirement or threat that says you need to shoot a pistol well? Or fight another human to death while wearing kit? Should we not practice and teach combatives? Or following the above line of logic, execute rifle marksmanship as best as you possibly fucking can? You know, since small arms is irrelevant. Do you need a stat or operational vignette from UKR to understand that? No. You don't need an operational vignette or case study or specific environment to know that you need to execute certain commando skills well and be competitively equipped. We are now teaching TCCC to LEO that is better than I received in 2002. You would be a fool to not pursue excellence and evolve.

I don't disagree that small arms isn't the battlefield difference maker, but I do disagree that it has to be, to be worthy of evolution. There are so many things I think need to evolve. Uniforms, body armour, rucks, Have you purchased a 670-1 compliant boot lately? Absolute garbage. It's egregious that soldiers should pay $180 for the floppy, no foot support, brown leather sponge, no traction having abortions that is what DOD is calling a boot these days. And it wasn't any better in the past. No serious outdoor professional would buy one of these boots to carry a load in rough terrain. When you weigh 200lbs +, and your kit weighs 70lbs, you need a boot designed for 300lbs of weight. That's a backpacking boot. Not a Soloman running shoe, or a 670-1 office/ cubicle moccasin. When you run around in rubble, blown off doors and broken glass, screws sticking up from fragmented structural wood, you want a thick enough sole, ankle support, and a toe box that will protect your toes from incorrectly front kicking a 50lb block of rubbled brick and mortar in the darkness.

Disclaimer: I'm not a WWII history buff. I don't wear Dad jeans or new balance walkers. I don't have a size 44 waist and a 30" inseam. So take everything I said for a grain of salt.
 
I think the war in ukraine is the best example of what modern combat is going to evolve into. Some reports show drones are accounting for 70% of the casualties and small arms are only accounting for 4%. Theres going to be some variation in these numbers but small arms are becoming less and less important in the grand scheme of things. Hopefully the Surefire ICAR builds up a good rep and shifts small arms devolpment back into the right direction but we will have to see.
The Ukraine war experience is born out of the capabilities, doctrine, and culture of both those militaries. It would look entirely different if the U.S. were a belligerent in it.

Also, drone countermeasures are likely to handicap their usage drastically in the near future.
 
Even in conventional, large scale wars like WWII, approximately 30-40% of casualties come from small arms. Small arms are still very important, even if they’re not the most casualty producing. Senior military leaders know this, or they should.
WWII is so far removed from the way we fight FSCO, so any statistics from it are largely irrelevant.

Just to give you an example, a single F-16 carries more payload farther than any B-17G could, and is not only more survivable against an air threat, but is lethal to other aircraft. A 200-strong F-16 fleet could have prosecuted the entire air campaign over the ETO, and ended it all rather quickly.

F-16 compared to F-35 today is like comparing an F-86 to an F-15 in the 1970s, and is only one platform in the overall force.

Once you look at the total force of TACAIR, Long Range Fires, Global Strike, UAS, and those types of systems, you see the only real role for legacy Infantry and dismounts is rear security for basing during initial staging operations, if needed.

Traditional artillery units in the US Army and USMC are primarily focused on long range missile fires, then precision-guided artillery, with lower-level howitzers being mainly for perimeter defense of expeditionary forces’ basing. Gone are the days where artillery covers large troop movements as they advance to take objectives WWI style. Those objectives are already annihilated by air component forces, often before land component forces have a chance to deploy into theater.

In Desert Storm, small arms accounted for hardly any casualties. For some of the Mech units who swept through after slaying tanks and APCs with precision tank, TOW, and mortar fire, some of the Iraqi survivors were still burning from White Phosphorous incendiary rounds and had to be mercy-killed by Mechanized Infantry dismounts. One of our Company Mortar Platoon Sergeants was a junior enlisted soldier in an Armored Cavalry unit in ODS, and related that experience with us many years later.

In ODS, the US lost more Soldiers (105), Marines (26), and Sailors (14) to non-combat accidents. Only the USAF lost more personnel due to direct combat vs accidents (20 KIA vs 6 non-hostile deaths).

There was almost no role for small arms in ODS though. The way we fight today makes things happen much faster than they did in ODS, with farther-reaching sensors, weapons, and faster net-centric communications.
 
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You need to be careful about using these stats and historical vignettes for the entirety of your analysis. No one has correctly predicted the course and outcome of any of the conflicts that are currently going on right now prior to reality informing us all in hindsight.

What's ironic about many of the posts here where people are using these arguments is that is exactly what a staff officer will do. And rightly so. It's a very logical thing to do. Especially when you don't have any first hand knowledge or experience. Synthesize experience by borrowing others in the form of case studies. The irony comes in because a lot of the people posting this line of logic are also the first ones to to use the classic E4 rehtoric, "officers don't know what they're doing and are out of touch" slander whenever they can. Yet, here they are, falling into the same line of logic.

Before GWOT we trained for the unknown. You didn't know what combat was going to be like so there was no limit or good enough in your thinking. And you didn't know exactly how you were going to react when you experienced it. In a lot of ways, certain combat experience has led people to incorrect assumptions. To a certain complacency. There's a lot of discussion about what mentality and experience is appropriate to retain from GWOT and what is irrelevant to the future environment. Not everyone agrees. There is a large element of the "unknown" still out there. You don't want to be caught short-handed.

Also, It's obvious there's a lot people talking here who have never lived a life where you are constantly improving every facet of your profession. From your intelligence and targeting, unit SOPs, team tactics, kit and load out, small unit vehicles, night vision, digital force protection, prolonged field care. You don't need stats to justify everything. What stats say every dude on your team needs to know how to use a pistol well? Raise your hand if you've killed multiple people with a pistol? What is the current operational requirement or threat that says you need to shoot a pistol well? Or fight another human to death while wearing kit? Should we not practice and teach combatives? Or following the above line of logic, execute rifle marksmanship as best as you possibly fucking can? You know, since small arms is irrelevant. Do you need a stat or operational vignette from UKR to understand that? No. You don't need an operational vignette or case study or specific environment to know that you need to execute certain commando skills well and be competitively equipped. We are now teaching TCCC to LEO that is better than I received in 2002. You would be a fool to not pursue excellence and evolve.

I don't disagree that small arms isn't the battlefield difference maker, but I do disagree that it has to be, to be worthy of evolution. There are so many things I think need to evolve. Uniforms, body armour, rucks, Have you purchased a 670-1 compliant boot lately? Absolute garbage. It's egregious that soldiers should pay $180 for the floppy, no foot support, brown leather sponge, no traction having abortions that is what DOD is calling a boot these days. And it wasn't any better in the past. No serious outdoor professional would buy one of these boots to carry a load in rough terrain. When you weigh 200lbs +, and your kit weighs 70lbs, you need a boot designed for 300lbs of weight. That's a backpacking boot. Not a Soloman running shoe, or a 670-1 office/ cubicle moccasin. When you run around in rubble, blown off doors and broken glass, screws sticking up from fragmented structural wood, you want a thick enough sole, ankle support, and a toe box that will protect your toes from incorrectly front kicking a 50lb block of rubbled brick and mortar in the darkness.

Disclaimer: I'm not a WWII history buff. I don't wear Dad jeans or new balance walkers. I don't have a size 44 waist and a 30" inseam. So take everything I said for a grain of salt.
Due to public-schooling, university conditioning, and service academy groupthink & conformity bias, I’m noticing senior planners having an extremely difficult time with nuance and being able to allocate resources to different pools. There’s a lot of binary either/or mentality, which doesn’t fit the real world.

Small arms and excellent carbine marksmanship are absolutely essential for COIN, while being very limited for FSCO (gate guard, site security). So I absolutely agree in chasing excellence in improving them, but not thinking that dismounted soldiers will somehow be engaging enemy dismounts from 600m and penetrating their armor to atrit them in some type of open terrain, where the Army is a lead force in engaging “near-peer” combatants.

The old 1980 FM 7-8 was excellent in the chapters on Task Organization and flexible force structuring down at the Platoon level for each mission set, with great artwork that even a Lieutenant or Private could understand, whereas subsequent 7-8s were dry text filled with re-hashed careerist-speak and very limited effective information being conveyed. This had more to do with culture and how officers were selected and promoted I think, with priorities in the wrong places.

The reality is the Light/Airborne/Airmobile Combat Divisions in the Army need to be focused on COIN and JRDF-type organizational and mission profiles, not FSCO. A JRDF-focused force and training OPTEMPO posture will support COIN and also assist with early staging, if needed, for actual casualty-producing forces in any new basing requirements they might need to launch and recover from. Given what I know about Air Component and Maritime Component forces, and war-gaming those capabilities across each theater combatant command, I just don’t see anything resembling how Infantry were historically employed playing out.

I was TDY from Bragg to Millennium Challenge 02 at Camp Lejeune, where we had a command center with a giant screen showing the whole world and how all the units were contributing to a simulated massive operation against one of the largest armed forces on the planet. We got to see how it all played out over a pretty long duration day-to-day, with people manning this center 24/7. There just wasn’t much of a role for any of the types of Infantry/Airborne/Airmobile units I served in, and we knew it. All of the weapons systems, sensors, and ISR platforms that have been developed over the last 23 years since that time make that even more of a reality, distancing any possibilities of traditional Infantry engagements from even being looked at from planners at that level.

And whether one advocates for or against NGSW in its current configuration of systems, it hampers the ability to do either COIN or FSCO for the basic complaints everyone had against it: Weight, bulk, UBL downsized, accuracy loss, lack of system durability, and ammunition costs.
 
The NGSW: Separate the judgement of the current iteration of the program from whether or not there should be a program. Two things can be true at the same time.
100%. Given the Army’s track record of not having ever RFP’d, down-selected, and managed a successful service rifle program since the 1930s with the Garand, I think we should seriously consider removing or relocating small arms design, selection, and program management from the big pickle Army.

I and many others have been advocating for an Intermediate Cartridge, but I think the best place for that is to displace and eventually replace 7.62 NATO, mainly for size/performance and logistics considerations. This would increase the number of total round count for any dismounted or mounted/dismounted units, without sacrificing hit probability or relevant effects on-target.

We could keep 5.56 or replace it with something even smaller with better performance for the majority of the Combat Arms, Combat Support, and Support soldiers who currently draw an M4, or use the latest case technology to bring the barrel length down even shorter to make weapons more compact for a lot of people who simply will never fire their weapon at partial exposures outside of 200m anyway.

If we look at all the successful small arms programs since Vietnam, they have all really been embraced or pioneered by SOF elements who have freedom to test and select viable small arms, without as much interference from bureaucrats and ignoramuses who never were 11Bs or 0311s.

The organization who has influenced small arms with more relevant and useful systems is JSOC, without a doubt. USAF was instrumental in getting the AR-15 adopted and type-classified by the Pentagon, despite the Army in the early 1960s. But when we look at every ancillary system, rails, optics, LAMs, signature reduction, and better Man-Machine Interface, it was all pioneered in JSOC. Then it tricked down to Ranger Regiment, then SF, then Airborne/Airmobile/Light units. Mech were some of the last to see M4s, RAS, CCOs, PAQ-4Cs, PEQ-2s, PEQ-15s, ACOGs, etc.

There should be a group of retired JSOC guys who do Combat Development for big pickle Army. PEO, Army Ordnance, and big office US Army programs have proven impotent and misdirected when it comes to small arms. They screw up load-bearing gear and individual kit as well, on purpose. That’s their words, not mine. “We use an 85% solution because we need engineering capacity down the road, and don’t want to lose that."

JSOC working with AMU and industry partners has already cranked-out vastly-superior products.
 
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I posted how a rifle is damn near irrelevant outside of SOF and got shit on. Its clear who has an understanding of combined arms warfare using current tech and who is still living in the past. Maybe its movies.

The guys who NEED to use a rifle are going to get whatever they need. You could issue every solider a M1 carbine and it would not change the lethality or the endgame of the United states and possibly its allies going to war. The difference in casualties would be negligible.

HE guided by sensors is modern warfare. Doesn't matter the platform, the weapon, how its launched, where its based,ect. The nation with the most advanced sensors that can direct the most HE onto the most critical targets in the quickest amount of time will be victorious. What rifle some infantryman carries doesn't even register in the equation.
 
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100%. Given the Army’s track record of not having ever RFP’d, down-selected, and managed a successful service rifle program since the 1930s with the Garand, I think we should seriously consider removing or relocating small arms design, selection, and program management from the big pickle Army.

I and many others have been advocating for an Intermediate Cartridge, but I think the best place for that is to displace and eventually replace 7.62 NATO, mainly for size/performance and logistics considerations. This would increase the number of total round count for any dismounted or mounted/dismounted units, without sacrificing hit probability or relevant effects on-target.

We could keep 5.56 or replace it with something even smaller with better performance for the majority of the Combat Arms, Combat Support, and Support soldiers who currently draw an M4.

If we look at all the successful small arms programs since Vietnam, they have all really been embraced or pioneered by SOF elements who have freedom to test and select viable small arms, without as much interference from bureaucrats and ignoramuses who never were 11Bs or 0311s.

The organization who has influenced small arms with more relevant and useful systems is JSOC, without a doubt. USAF was instrumental in getting the AR-15 adopted and type-classified by the Pentagon, despite the Army in the early 1960s. But when we look at every ancillary system, rails, optics, LAMs, signature reduction, and better Man-Machine Interface, it was all pioneered in JSOC. Then it tricked down to Ranger Regiment, then SF, then Airborne/Airmobile/Light units. Mech were some of the last to see M4s, RAS, CCOs, PAQ-4Cs, PEQ-2s, PEQ-15s, ACOGs, etc.

There should be a group of retired JSOC guys who do Combat Development for big pickle Army. PEO, Army Ordnance, and big office US Army programs have proven impotent and misdirected when it comes to small arms. They screw up load-bearing gear and individual kit as well, on purpose. That’s their words, not mine. “We use an 85% solution because we need engineering capacity down the road, and don’t want to lose that."

JSOC working with AMU and industry partners has already cranked-out vastly-superior products.
Once you understand that the Purpose of DOD is not to win wars, but to spend taxpayer money and enrich private/public corporations while setting yourself up for post retirement money funnel IS. Virtually everyone in the decision making cycle (congress, DOD officers, DOD civilians, ect), has this goal in mind. Its only the naive, idealistic rubes who believe in the bullshit "game" who think they have the warfighter or the american citizens best interest at heart.

And with that being said, they still produce some amazing shit that no one else can touch. But the reality is, they could probably do the same for about 1/5th the budget and be just as lethal and as effective.
 
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Then it tricked down to Ranger Regiment, then SF, then Airborne/Airmobile/Light units. Mech were some of the last to see M4s, RAS, CCOs, PAQ-4Cs, PEQ-2s, PEQ-15s, ACOGs, etc.
I had a break in service in the late 90s...going from 10th Group back then, to early GWOT OIF and seeing some conventional 11Bs in Mosul with shorty SAWs, M4s with optics, LAMs, even shorter 203s, etc was a little jarring.

"Damn, that trickled down kind of fast"
 
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Depends on the unit. If it was EARLY GWOT in the north, 10th group dropped in with (well before) the 173rd. A buddy of mine made the combat jump with them. He had some gnarly stories of what the Kurds did to the Iraqis they captured :/

The army was RAPIDLY changing and some units got stuff way faster than others. The last were the guard units. We deployed in 2005 with M16A2, about a dozen M4s a dozen M9s maybe 10-15 SAW and Mk19/M2s as a combat engineer unit. When we got back everyone was rocking M4's with Acogs and para saws.

The army in 2001 was like 20-30 year old tech lapse compared to 2006. Shit we were still issued shit from VN.
 
Depends on the unit. If it was EARLY GWOT in the north, 10th group dropped in with (well before) the 173rd. A buddy of mine made the combat jump with them. He had some gnarly stories of what the Kurds did to the Iraqis they captured :/

The army was RAPIDLY changing and some units got stuff way faster than others. The last were the guard units. We deployed in 2005 with M16A2, about a dozen M4s a dozen M9s maybe 10-15 SAW and Mk19/M2s as a combat engineer unit. When we got back everyone was rocking M4's with Acogs and para saws.

The army in 2001 was like 20-30 year old tech lapse compared to 2006. Shit we were still issued shit from VN.
So you were a combat engineer in the National Guard?
 
Just eyeballing it, the conventional brass-case .276 (x 51.4mm) Pederson would be about the same dimensions as the hybrid-case 6.8 x 51mm (6.8 Fury).

View attachment 8690551

It would probably be the equivalent of todays conventional brass-case SIG 6.8 x 51 training round -- and thus fit into a short-frame AR-10 (XM7).

Back to the Future (1930).

View attachment 8690558

Meanwhile a near perfect cartridge had been around for decades
The good old 6.5x55 that everybody started loving and thinking was the best thing ever once they shortened it by a tiny bit and called it Creedmore.

The 1940s "Prickstyle" bullets for the 6.5x55 even look very close to "cool modern" bullets everyone is using.
1750118821348.png


To this day it's still going to outperform your cool Creedmore stuff if you load it with the latest projectiles and velocities.
But I guess you know having to move your bolt 1/4th of an inch more is really super hard...
 
WWII is so far removed from the way we fight FSCO, so any statistics from it are largely irrelevant.

Just to give you an example, a single F-16 carries more payload farther than any B-17G could, and is not only more survivable against an air threat, but is lethal to other aircraft. A 200-strong F-16 fleet could have prosecuted the entire air campaign over the ETO, and ended it all rather quickly.

F-16 compared to F-35 today is like comparing an F-86 to an F-15 in the 1970s, and is only one platform in the overall force.

Once you look at the total force of TACAIR, Long Range Fires, Global Strike, UAS, and those types of systems, you see the only real role for legacy Infantry and dismounts is rear security for basing during initial staging operations, if needed.

Traditional artillery units in the US Army and USMC are primarily focused on long range missile fires, then precision-guided artillery, with lower-level howitzers being mainly for perimeter defense of expeditionary forces’ basing. Gone are the days where artillery covers large troop movements as they advance to take objectives WWI style. Those objectives are already annihilated by air component forces, often before land component forces have a chance to deploy into theater.

In Desert Storm, small arms accounted for hardly any casualties. For some of the Mech units who swept through after slaying tanks and APCs with precision tank, TOW, and mortar fire, some of the Iraqi survivors were still burning from White Phosphorous incendiary rounds and had to be mercy-killed by Mechanized Infantry dismounts. One of our Company Mortar Platoon Sergeants was a junior enlisted soldier in an Armored Cavalry unit in ODS, and related that experience with us many years later.

In ODS, the US lost more Soldiers (105), Marines (26), and Sailors (14) to non-combat accidents. Only the USAF lost more personnel due to direct combat vs accidents (20 KIA vs 6 non-hostile deaths).

There was almost no role for small arms in ODS though. The way we fight today makes things happen much faster than they did in ODS, with farther-reaching sensors, weapons, and faster net-centric communications.
I’m well aware of modern capabilities, including R&D that will be coming out in the next 10-20 years.

ODS was a rather unique conflict with extremely limited infantry use. We did not push into enemy territory to hold their ground.

As for F-16s, yes our air power is massively effective. But the first priority for their munitions will be IADS, lines of communication, centers of power… etc. things that will have the most affect. Soldiers on the ground don’t always have CAS on station to hit soft targets/troops. Especially in a large scale conflict where the enemy has a real Army, vs what we saw in GWOT. Even in GWOT where aircraft didn’t have operationally important targets very often, troops in contact rarely had aircraft on station.

Regarding artillery, no, they are still used to support maneuver elements. Yes, we have the long range fires to pursue the deep fight. But we also still, in practice AND in doctrine, use artillery to support the maneuver elements. I can’t tell you how many times I had 155s whizzing over my head and hitting targets within “woooompph” range (feeling pressure from the blast) on impact.

Even with artillery support, maneuver elements will continue to engage with small arms. That is not going away in the near future. Not even in the next couple decades where manned-unmanned teaming is far more prevalent with far more advanced autonomy.
 
I am fully confident that all of this peacetime fuckery is predicated on a statistically insignificant number of occasions where the Bad Guys had more range than the Good Guys did in Afghanistan, the U.S. Army valuing technical solutions to training, education, and planning problems, and Black Hawk Down stories of 5.56mm being ineffective.

Hopefully this poor decision will go the way of the OICW and the SCAR before the U.S. ends up in a situation where they need to share rifle ammo with Allies.

-Stan
 
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Just eyeballing it, the conventional brass-case .276 (x 51.4mm) Pederson would be about the same dimensions as the hybrid-case 6.8 x 51mm (6.8 Fury).

View attachment 8690551

It would probably be the equivalent of todays conventional brass-case SIG 6.8 x 51 training round -- and thus fit into a short-frame AR-10 (XM7).

Back to the Future (1930).

View attachment 8690558
The .276 Pedersen had the advantage of using .450” case head, so you could fit 10rds in the Garand instead of the 8 in .30 cal with .473” case head. Each pouch on the belt kit of that era would have had 10rds in it instead of 8, so 100rds on the belt instead of 80, augmented by bandoliers with equal scaling in favor of the Pedersen.

By sticking with .473” case head in the 1950s development cycle for the T65 cartridge, it saddled us with the bulk and weight of 7.62 NATO for the M14 and M60, as well as all the other belt-fed 7.62 weapons in the inventory.

Would have been interesting for the 1950s rifle developments in both the US and NATO. FAL, M14, G3, and AR-10 would all have been smaller and lighter, with 25rd magazines. Would have made a great DM weapon baseline as well, let alone LMG.
 
I’m well aware of modern capabilities, including R&D that will be coming out in the next 10-20 years.

ODS was a rather unique conflict with extremely limited infantry use. We did not push into enemy territory to hold their ground.

As for F-16s, yes our air power is massively effective. But the first priority for their munitions will be IADS, lines of communication, centers of power… etc. things that will have the most affect. Soldiers on the ground don’t always have CAS on station to hit soft targets/troops. Especially in a large scale conflict where the enemy has a real Army, vs what we saw in GWOT. Even in GWOT where aircraft didn’t have operationally important targets very often, troops in contact rarely had aircraft on station.

Regarding artillery, no, they are still used to support maneuver elements. Yes, we have the long range fires to pursue the deep fight. But we also still, in practice AND in doctrine, use artillery to support the maneuver elements. I can’t tell you how many times I had 155s whizzing over my head and hitting targets within “woooompph” range (feeling pressure from the blast) on impact.

Even with artillery support, maneuver elements will continue to engage with small arms. That is not going away in the near future. Not even in the next couple decades where manned-unmanned teaming is far more prevalent with far more advanced autonomy.
ODS is the only LSCO the US has fought since Korea. The Iraqi Air Force and Army were rated as the 4th-largest in the world, behind the US, China, and Russia. The Iraqi Air Force had 768 tactical combat aircraft ranging from MiG-25PDs with solid-state avionics, to MiG-29As, MiG-23s, Mirage F1EQs custom-built for them by Dassault, MiG-21s, and the most capable air defense network in the Middle East at the time.

The main reason US Army Mech forces participated in ODS to the extent that they did was due to their ability to sell themselves among the war planners, and all the pent-up energy they had from training for the Cold War all those years during the Reagan build-up. Once we saw what F-111Fs could do at night with GBU-12s and Pave Tack, it made the presence of Mech kinda pointless looking forward. The main thing that has held onto mech and tanks is institutional inertia and senior tankers, plus the contracts entrenched in US wheeled motor works production.

82nd’s deployment to ODS was kind of pointless, other than the initial show of force in Saudi while the air bases were populated with coalition air.

I’ve called in plenty of indirect fires and had them whizz over my head as well in many difference places in the world. This has zero bearing though on how the US fights large scale, since Infantry aren’t a factor in that type of fight.

The institutional inertia at Fort Benning and Fort Sill will still preach and teach the propaganda to the contrary, because they don’t know how to adapt. The Army recruits a lot of officers who can’t think critically, and can only monkey-see, monkey-do. These guys rise in the ranks in career fields that don’t have as much potential to do effective damage to the enemy or themselves, so they are permitted to continue doing useless things like this.

As long as long range fires, air defense, medical, EW, comms, and some Army aviation continue to deliver adequately, DoD doesn’t give 2 rips about silly things happening in the Infantry and their direct support assets.
 
Meanwhile a near perfect cartridge had been around for decades
The good old 6.5x55 that everybody started loving and thinking was the best thing ever once they shortened it by a tiny bit and called it Creedmore.

The 1940s "Prickstyle" bullets for the 6.5x55 even look very close to "cool modern" bullets everyone is using.
View attachment 8710248

To this day it's still going to outperform your cool Creedmore stuff if you load it with the latest projectiles and velocities.
But I guess you know having to move your bolt 1/4th of an inch more is really super hard...
Ever carried a m14 or a sr25 in combat?

You learn real quick you can't carry enough ammo to sustain a prolonged firefight.

5.56 is fine. It keeps heads down while indirect and direct fires can be brought to bear. Trying to go toe to toe with armored infantry ala a classic boxing match is pure retardation.

Kill them with HE and chemicals (WP & napalam)
 
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The Army already knew early-on that the M14 was a non-starter when they did the classified force-on-force exercises at Fort Benning using captured Type 56s and RPDs vs M14s and M60s before any major US combat forces were deployed to Vietnam in 1965. The OPFOR Platoons equipped with 7.62x39 out-lasted the BLUE FORCES M14/M60 combo, then ran them down like dogs. They could sustain more fire on initial contact, support flanking and bounding longer, and still have plenty of ammo for overrunning/actions-on, consolidating & reorganizing, then prepping for counter-attack without need for resupply.

7.62x51 simply doesn’t support that at all. Almost everyone goes Black really fast, and direct combat support duty positions have to give up their mags to the line just to scrape by. PSG, PL, RTO, Combat Medic, FOs, etc. have to hand over their ammo and someone has to redistribute it to the Fire Teams in the Rifle Squads.

Basic load for the M14 was 5 mags, with unit discretion on augmenting as they could.

5 mags of 7.62x51 is heavier than a lot of people think, even when not carrying much else.

30rd 7.62x39 mags aren’t exactly lightweight either, but still provided a better UBL for OPFOR and real-world NVA, insurgents/VC/militia. Warsaw Pact and Chicom chest harnesses allowed carriage of more rounds for the same weight.

The AR-15 of course took round count to a totally new level of form factor, weight, low recoil, and ease of training. We still kept belt-fed 7.62x51 weapons at the Platoon-level, and then looked for a Squad-Level belt-fed Light Machinegun in the 1970s to balance out the weapons mix.
 
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ODS is the only LSCO the US has fought since Korea. The Iraqi Air Force and Army were rated as the 4th-largest in the world, behind the US, China, and Russia. The Iraqi Air Force had 768 tactical combat aircraft ranging from MiG-25PDs with solid-state avionics, to MiG-29As, MiG-23s, Mirage F1EQs custom-built for them by Dassault, MiG-21s, and the most capable air defense network in the Middle East at the time.

The main reason US Army Mech forces participated in ODS to the extent that they did was due to their ability to sell themselves among the war planners, and all the pent-up energy they had from training for the Cold War all those years during the Reagan build-up. Once we saw what F-111Fs could do at night with GBU-12s and Pave Tack, it made the presence of Mech kinda pointless looking forward. The main thing that has held onto mech and tanks is institutional inertia and senior tankers, plus the contracts entrenched in US wheeled motor works production.

82nd’s deployment to ODS was kind of pointless, other than the initial show of force in Saudi while the air bases were populated with coalition air.

I’ve called in plenty of indirect fires and had them whizz over my head as well in many difference places in the world. This has zero bearing though on how the US fights large scale, since Infantry aren’t a factor in that type of fight.

The institutional inertia at Fort Benning and Fort Sill will still preach and teach the propaganda to the contrary, because they don’t know how to adapt. The Army recruits a lot of officers who can’t think critically, and can only monkey-see, monkey-do. These guys rise in the ranks in career fields that don’t have as much potential to do effective damage to the enemy or themselves, so they are permitted to continue doing useless things like this.

As long as long range fires, air defense, medical, EW, comms, and some Army aviation continue to deliver adequately, DoD doesn’t give 2 rips about silly things happening in the Infantry and their direct support assets.
I guess we just fundamentally disagree.

ODS was a fairly unique, limited, and very abrupt conflict and can’t be used to predict future warfare.

Over-predicting future warfare to narrowly tailor current training is as bad as training for the last war. Infantry have been critical in every single war in the 20th and 21st centuries… except for ODS, which was unique.

Our air power, armor, fires, and EW are really quite impressive. But they can’t actually seize and hold key terrain or objectives. And quite frankly, we don’t have enough munitions to spend on all the soft targets that aren’t high value or high payoff. Nor do we have enough airframes and maintainers to keep aviation overhead everywhere. And the bleeding edge of autonomy research and UASes/robotics could theoretically supplant infantry in the future… but that time isn’t now or even the near future.
 
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The .276 Pedersen had the advantage of using .450” case head, so you could fit 10rds in the Garand instead of the 8 in .30 cal with .473” case head. Each pouch on the belt kit of that era would have had 10rds in it instead of 8, so 100rds on the belt instead of 80, augmented by bandoliers with equal scaling in favor of the Pedersen.

By sticking with .473” case head in the 1950s development cycle for the T65 cartridge, it saddled us with the bulk and weight of 7.62 NATO for the M14 and M60, as well as all the other belt-fed 7.62 weapons in the inventory.

Would have been interesting for the 1950s rifle developments in both the US and NATO. FAL, M14, G3, and AR-10 would all have been smaller and lighter, with 25rd magazines. Would have made a great DM weapon baseline as well, let alone LMG.
We clearly did well with the Garand in 30-06, but I often wonder how things would have been different with the 276 Pedersen. An objectively better solution. But, it’s the same Army that ditched the superior M1 ball ammo for M2 ball ammo because of shooting range limitations CONUS.