Rifle Scopes  ZCO 2-16

gnochi

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I wasn’t saying limit to 5mil, just use 5mil per turn and have a easily visible rev counter. Not sure what you mean by limited turn.

I’m sure lots would moan about 5mil turrets but they might get past it if it saves enough weight
The TT315M has 6mrad turrets that are limited to 2 revs for a total of 12mrad of working elevation. I want to make sure we don’t do that - the ZCxxx seem to be limited to 3 revs but that’s more than the total elevation of the scope anyway so it doesn’t matter on those scopes.

If they keep the 3 rev limit and go to 5mrad turrets that’s still a problem to me!
 
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SilentSteelCM

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The TT315M has 6mrad turrets that are limited to 2 revs for a total of 12mrad of working elevation. I want to make sure we don’t do that - the ZCxxx seem to be limited to 3 revs but that’s more than the total elevation of the scope anyway so it doesn’t matter on those scopes.

If they keep the 3 rev limit and go to 5mrad turrets that’s still a problem to me!
I agree, 5mil per rev is too little. Never had a problem adjusting even my 17 mil per rev in the dark by feel, thanks to mtc. 10 mil would be probably ideal in my opinion.
 
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Krob95

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    Say you’re hunting with a 6.5cm for example and using a 20moa base (seems pretty standard for integral rails and even non integral bases). Even if your 100yd is 7mils up from your scopes base “zero” you will have 8ish Mils of up elevation. Which is right around 1000yds (4250’ ASL with 140gr hybrids) How many people are taking a deer or elk or whatever game at 1k? This number shrinks with a faster and more aerodynamic projectile found in the bigger calibers.

    Do you really need an insane amount of mils of elevation for hunting? Probably not. 15mil would be plenty I would think. If you need more elevation, mounts with elevation built in are always an option along with different rails (in the case of a non integral rail).
     

    Squibbler

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    The TT315M has 6mrad turrets that are limited to 2 revs for a total of 12mrad of working elevation. I want to make sure we don’t do that - the ZCxxx seem to be limited to 3 revs but that’s more than the total elevation of the scope anyway so it doesn’t matter on those scopes.

    If they keep the 3 rev limit and go to 5mrad turrets that’s still a problem to me!


    Why??? What are your distance needs? 10 mils gets to 1k' ish for the majority of setups for supersonic and 300ish yds for subs. And if it ends up being 3 rev, that's 15 mils. If I'm going further I'm picking a different optic like the 420. Not arguing here, just trying to understand your needs.

    A 5 mil turret would simply to help meet weight expectations and have wider spaced prominent detent, not to limit elevation. This is assuming the smaller footprint turret weight savings would afford us the glass quality we're all expecting. I have my doubts that sub 25 oz with the performance we're expecting could be possible (?).
     

    srt-4_uk

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    My perfect lightweight hunting scope would be
    2-12×44
    30mm tube
    Illuminated reticle
    Simple reticle with hold overs and wind hold, floating dot.
    Low profile locking elevation turret
    10 mil rev
    Capped low profile windage
    Long enough for long action mounting
    20-25oz range
    For reference my S&B 10x is pretty close to ideal size and weight.
    This right here. Basically an Athlon Helos BTR 2-12 except a nicer version of it.
    Say you’re hunting with a 6.5cm for example and using a 20moa base (seems pretty standard for integral rails and even non integral bases). Even if your 100yd is 7mils up from your scopes base “zero” you will have 8ish Mils of up elevation. Which is right around 1000yds (4250’ ASL with 140gr hybrids) How many people are taking a deer or elk or whatever game at 1k? This number shrinks with a faster and more aerodynamic projectile found in the bigger calibers.

    Do you really need an insane amount of mils of elevation for hunting? Probably not. 15mil would be plenty I would think. If you need more elevation, mounts with elevation built in are always an option along with different rails (in the case of a non integral rail).
    Except a 20 MOA base has nothing to do with a turret that's limited to 3 turns. You put a 40 moa base and you still can only adjust 15 mil from your zero. That makes sense if they were talking internal scope travel.
    Completely agree with everything else. No need for massive amounts of dialing.
     

    Krob95

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    Are you suggesting having a turret with 15mil elevation but a scope with internal elevation greater than that?? I was just referencing total internal elevation matching the the total elevation indicated on the turret like the current ZCO’s.
     

    srt-4_uk

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    That's not what I was suggesting. I'm just explaining to you what they were talking about. It wouldn't be the first time that a scopes elevation was limited by the turret though. See Steiner 5-25, Crimson Trace 5 series, Brownells MPO, Vortex Strike Eagle 5-25, Tangent 3-15....
     

    Krob95

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    That's not what I was suggesting. I'm just explaining to you what they were talking about. It wouldn't be the first time that a scopes elevation was limited by the turret though. See Steiner 5-25, Crimson Trace 5 series, Brownells MPO, Vortex Strike Eagle 5-25, Tangent 3-15....
    Oh I’m getting what you’re putting down
     

    gnochi

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    Why??? What are your distance needs? 10 mils gets to 1k' ish for the majority of setups for supersonic and 300ish yds for subs. And if it ends up being 3 rev, that's 15 mils. If I'm going further I'm picking a different optic like the 420. Not arguing here, just trying to understand your needs.

    A 5 mil turret would simply to help meet weight expectations and have wider spaced prominent detent, not to limit elevation. This is assuming the smaller footprint turret weight savings would afford us the glass quality we're all expecting. I have my doubts that sub 25 oz with the performance we're expecting could be possible (?).
    No objections to 5mrad, just rev limits.

    Among other things, 22LR to >300yd would be nice, and that’s right around 15mrad. Also, my 6.5CM rifle to 1300yd on the dual-use side. I’m great with hunting-optimized but if you have a mid-zoom scope it’s going to need to be usable for dual use.
     
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    Palmetto-Pride

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    Guys can I ask an honest question and get an honest answer.
    How many of you take game over 500yds?
    Do you see where I am going with this?
    Where I hunt I could take shots over 1000yds I have looked at what appeared to be a huge buck at 800+yds I could have pulled the trigger, but I would rather come back another day when I can get him inside of 500yds…Can we be honest and realistic with ourselves?
     

    Wyfox

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    Guys can I ask an honest question and get an honest answer.
    How many of you take game over 500yds?
    Do you see where I am going with this?
    Where I hunt I could take shots over 1000yds I have looked at what appeared to be a huge buck at 800+yds I could have pulled the trigger, but I would rather come back another day when I can get him inside of 500yds…Can we be honest and realistic with ourselves?
    On a regular basis, even my teenage daughters have taken trophy game over 500yds. It really depends on your AO, for me 500yds is a cake walk. Someone hunting whitetails in the midwest is going to have a different experience.
     

    Squibbler

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    I get both sides of the argument. Most common hunting usage vs dual purpose/crossover usage vs extended hunting.

    I think this project needs a priority list. So what's # one priority here?

    1. Weight
    2. Glass performance
    3. Durability
    4. Features
    -- A. Locking turret
    -- B. Illuminated
    -- C. Amount of elevation
    -- D. Locking diopter
    5. Cost
    6. Etc, etc

    What would make you shell out the dough in a heartbeat to buy this tier 1 mpvo?
     

    Palmetto-Pride

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    On a regular basis, even my teenage daughters have taken trophy game over 500yds. It really depends on your AO, for me 500yds is a cake walk. Someone hunting whitetails in the midwest is going to have a different experience.
    Man that is awesome especially your daughters good on you for raising them right!

    I have no problem hitting 8” steel plates at 800 yds where a miss doesn’t matter. I just don’t try it on game. I am not knocking anyone who does and successfully takes game at those distances. I guess I need to grow some balls and give it a shot….Once again I admire anyone who can do that like it’s a cake walk!
     
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    koshkin

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    All sorts of interesting suggestions.

    I'd probably go for a low hanging fruit of sorts. Since ZCO has a very nice 5x erector, I would stick with that and add a scope with a smaller objective than what they have now. They have 5-27x56 and 4-20x50. The next logical step down in size is 3-15x42 or something along those lines. If you want the magnification to look different, you can always make it as a 2.8-14x or 3.2-16x or something along those lines. 16x on the top end would probably look better for marketing. The difference is near negligible in practice.

    The idea would be to put the same excellent 5x erector optical system into a significantly lighter and shorter scope.

    Keep the windage turret covered for compactness and cost saving. Elevation turret should be some sort of a wide-ish low profile design. Stick to 10mrad per revolution and a two revolution design. If the scope ends up sitting in a smaller 30mm tube, you are not going to have a huge amount of adjustment anyway.

    There are two primary applications for such a design: hunting and precision gas guns. The same core design can comfortably do both, but the reticle may need to be different. It is not a particularly difficult reticle design in both cases though.

    ILya
     

    usmc45

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    Whats so bad about the MPCT3? I dont know shit about reticles so i'm genuinely interested as to why. I always kind of liked the look of it with the open circles like the H2CMR but again have zero expectance with most reticles and have only run a P4FL.
     
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    BurtGummer

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    Perfection, Nevada
    1444D483-1617-4FE5-866A-0DFFCEA09791.jpeg
     

    Glassaholic

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    For a competition reticle the MPCT3 is decent, for a crossover reticle it makes me vomit :sick: :sick: 🤬😤🥵😫 (PS - I hate the H2CMR as well). But I'm very particular about reticles and I don't expect everyone to think like me. As my old pops used to tell me, "you're entitled to your own wrong opinion" :LOL:
     

    Squibbler

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    Here'd be my must buy list (beg, borrow, or steal to get)

    1. ZCO/TT tier glass and performance
    2. FFP Mpct3 reticle or similar tree
    3. Elevation to get me to 1k with most setups. If enough to get me to the end of supersonic range with majority of small action cartridges, I'd consider it a bonus.
    4. Sub 25oz (is it possible for a feature rich FFP optic with tier 1 glass 🤷🏻‍♂️) Comps appear to hit the 28oz mark (NX8 & TT 28oz, Leupy 26oz)
    5. Locking turrets
    6. Locking diopter
    7. ZCO eyebox
    8. Short length for clip-on 13" or less
    9. 40ft FOV @ min
    10. 2x - 3x min mag
    11. 14x -16x @ max.
    12. Forgiving parallax
    13. Don't care about tube diameter size ... Maybe the 36mm could get optical design with less compromise that's shorter in length and in turn be lighter ?? It sure seems that way with their other two models. Also the Leupy 3.6-18x44 is a 35mm tube at 26oz.
    14. Illumination
     

    ma smith

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    +1 MSR-2 design principles,
    but without modification, IMHO
    too thin at low power like 2-4x

    I'm in the camp that wants, when at 2-4x
    a "virtual reticle" to appear, very basic
    -> bracket, level and center my target,
    something looking like german no 4
     
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    GreenMushroom

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    +1 MSR-2 design principles,
    but without modification, IMHO
    too thin at low power like 2-4x

    I'm in the camp that wants, when at 2-4x
    a "virtual reticle" to appear, very basic
    -> bracket, level and center my target,
    something looking like german no 4

    I really like the bracket on my little bushy 1-6. With both eyes open everything in the center disappears unless your looking for it and its very fast. I like not having a post at 12 o'clock. Gives a much better view and open feel.
    20210711_140026.jpg
     

    ma smith

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    Nice, here is my quick-mock up of modified MSR concept...
    (also outlines the 15x scope view)..

    Cocktail napkin note(s)

    1) Open top design for observation/spotting shots etc
    2) Solid post 3/6/9 oclock -> german no 4 in high contrast or wide angles etc
    3) MSR L-scale is reduced in size, a la nighforce inverted T (stays out of way when not in use)
    4) 99% of "fast-acquisition" scenarios, IMHO 8mil holdover and 4 mil hold-under = enough detail
    5) MSR style 10/20/30 mil measuring/level references available for wide angle viewing


    Untitled Image-7.png
     
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    st1650

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    To save weight and complexity, I'd be fine with a 10 mil turret with a zero set like the Burris XTR II 1-8. Gives you approx 9.5 mil of elevation which is more than enough for 308 and 6.5 to 1000 yards.
     

    SRPowah

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    I absolutely love my NF 4-16x42 so that is kind of my benchmark here. I rarely need less than 4x (yet to find a need for less), so a lightweight 4-20x really grabs my attention. That includes shooting a racoon 10 yards away at 4x this weekend. Part of the reason why 4x is kind of the ideal bottom end for me is reticle design: Compromises must be made in the reticle once you start going really low with FFP. A day bright red dot helps, but I don't want it to compromise a fine aiming point at the top end where most of my shooting is done. Just give me big fat German #4 style brackets to bracket game at the low end, and don't give me an aiming point that covers 1" per hundred yards.

    Ilya's 3-15 idea sounds beautiful for maximizing the shedding of weight and physical size, and would be the ideal true crossover optic in my mind.
     

    SRPowah

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    Good news. The ZCO 420 only weights 4.8oz more than the 4-16 ATACR so ya don’t get to mess up the 2-16 they are developing!
    I am currently shopping for optics that are sub-20oz, and consider the ATACR on the heavy side already. I am not under the illusion of getting a 1lbs FFP 4-20 or 2-16, but ZCO quality in the 24oz range would be mighty sexy and likely worth the added weight.
     

    st1650

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    Literally just take a razor lht hd 3-15x42 and maybe come down to 2.5-12.5 for extra FOV, make it FFP with a reticle like Ma Smith made and done. Sub 20oz. Locking elevation. Capped windage, center dot illum. Probably be under 1200$.
    No need to reinvent the wheel here.
     

    Huskydriver

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    Literally just take a razor lht hd 3-15x42 and maybe come down to 2.5-12.5 for extra FOV, make it FFP with a reticle like Ma Smith made and done. Sub 20oz. Locking elevation. Capped windage, center dot illum. Probably be under 1200$.
    No need to reinvent the wheel here.

    Under 1200 lol with it made in Austria?

    Are you high guy?
     

    rlsmith1

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    To those of you who have owned March scopes, how would this scope differ?

    Their 1.5-15, 2.5-25 and 3-24 offerings check a lot of these boxes.

    Having never owned a March (almost bought a 3-24), it seems they are not quite light enough and sacrifice too much optically with such a large mag range.

    Someone here said they aren’t very durable but I have read other threads that say the opposite.
     
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    st1650

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    To those of you who have owned March scopes, how would this scope differ?

    Their 1.5-15, 2.5-25 and 3-24 offerings check a lot of these boxes.

    Having never owned a March (almost bought a 3-24), it seems they are not quite light enough and sacrifice too much optically with such a large mag range.

    Someone here said they aren’t very durable but I have read other threads that say the opposite.
    The March 1.5-15 and 2.5-25 are both SFP.
     

    GreenMushroom

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    To those of you who have owned March scopes, how would this scope differ?

    Their 1.5-15, 2.5-25 and 3-24 offerings check a lot of these boxes.

    Having never owned a March (almost bought a 3-24), it seems they are not quite light enough and sacrifice too much optically with such a large mag range.

    Someone here said they aren’t very durable but I have read other threads that say the opposite.
    Haven't owned one but was considering buying one. Sfp and reticle is calibrated for 10x. Once I thought this over i actually liked the idea. 10x for drops with a good eyebox and 15X you can dial. So then I wondered how you knew you were on 10x figuring a detent or stop of some kind. But no it's just a arrow mark that you have to look over the top to see. Also flashdot illumination is "I'd say it's daylight bright" which means it's not.
     

    Glassaholic

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    To those of you who have owned March scopes, how would this scope differ?

    Their 1.5-15, 2.5-25 and 3-24 offerings check a lot of these boxes.

    Having never owned a March (almost bought a 3-24), it seems they are not quite light enough and sacrifice too much optically with such a large mag range.

    Someone here said they aren’t very durable but I have read other threads that say the opposite.
    The 3-24 checks a lot of boxes for sure. Would prefer better DOF and parallax, their new turrets are an improvement over my last 3-24 so having a better reticle would make the 3-24 more appealing.
     

    jakelly

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    The MPVO territory is ripe for some fresh blood, too many LPVO’s to compete with unless you OEM like ATI did.

    You want specifics, okay, let’s get specific ;):
    A 2-16x42 FFP with 30mm tube that weighs under 23oz. Parts made in your same facility in Austria with glass that performs at the level of the current ZCO line with wide angle eyepiece providing enormous FOV but not too wide so you limit edge distortion . A short body design but not too short so you don’t compromise eyebox, DOF and parallax forgiveness (something the NX8 struggles with mightily). Turrets that have click feel more in line with Tangent Theta and only 10 mil per rev. Same illumination module that you have in current ZCO with auto shutoff and movement turn on, etc. New reticle that works at the bottom end of magnification as well as the top end without being too thick at top or too thin at bottom with something that helps draw the eye to center when at low mags, tree is essential but not with thick horizontal tree lines, use just dots in tree keeping the view clean throughout mag range. Include a gold certificate in 10 boxes like Willy Wonka and the Chocolate Factory, lucky winners get a personal tour of ZCO facilities in Idaho and get to participate in assembly and get a selfie with Nick and Jeff, a competition ensues with the lucky ten using a custom SPR/DMR style AR with the 2-16x42 ZCO mounted, shooter to get the most first shot hits on various distance targets out to 800 yards wins the rifle 😳 😆

    Was that specific enough? 😂
    That’s a great post ^^^
    Hey gang ... don't forget that Jeff said in one of the podcast interviews (possibly the one with Frank) that he likes a 5x zoom ratio - and that once you get to 8x, then it creates all sorts of problems ...

    Just putting it out there so y'all don't start dreaming about whatcha not gonna get ... :)
    3-15x36-44. Yes, and execute it perfectly. A number starting with a 4 would probably help marketing.

    4 or 5x erector- don’t use an erector that immediately introduces compromises.

    LESS than 20oz 16-18 should be the target. Don’t compromise on the weight 25-30oz options are out there, they are heavy on a hunting rifle.

    Don’t make it ultra short, it needs to fit a LA. The ar guys have plenty of options.

    Your world class glass.

    Simple illumination. Rheostat - on off.

    10mil turret. Double turn is fine.

    Perfectly sized tree reticle.

    This hole in the products available has existed for so long GAP and Bushnell made a scope to address it. Every scope being used in this role has something you guys don’t… compromises
     

    st1650

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    Also remember, when you have crystal clear glass, you don't need the extra magnification. 12x on alpha glass is better than 18x on chinesium and you get the extra FOV.
    Also 12-13" is a good length. Short enough to run a clip-on. Not too long.
     

    jakelly

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    That’s true. Especially when the optical design produces parallax insensitivity, excellent depth of field, wide FOV. Look through an old 3-12x56 Zeiss Diavari… wow.
     

    Jgunner

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    You guys are never happy............

    "I want it to feel like you can drive railroad spikes with it, but weigh no more than a hummingbird feather."

    "I want to zoom in on the hair of a gnats balls at 800yds on the high end, but want a FOV so I can see a train end to end from 10yds on the low end."

    "I want to see the illumination when I look directly at the sun with it."

    "I want to feel the click of the turrets wearing a catcher's mitt, but with surgical precision."

    "I want it to include voice activated flip up lens covers, sunshade, polarizer filter for shooting a deer thru a window."

    "I want tooless zero."

    "I want it to cost no more than a Tasco."
    True. But thats what we want. Make it!!! Lol
     
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    blindspotter

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    Great discussion, one scope that deserves a mention is the S&B Polar T96 3-12x54.

    -23.5 ounces
    -FFP P4FL reticle
    -locking single turn elevation
    -30m-infinity parallax adjustment
    -illuminated (center only)

    Seems to check a lot of boxes, it's bulky (34mm) and long (14 inches) though.