I’ve been looking at the resale values on S&B scopes vs those of the ZCO scopes and it seems like the S&Bs are a lot lower than the ZCOs even though some of the Schmidts start out higher new. Is there a reason for this? Are the zero coms more desirable or are they just a new fad? The reason I ask is I have a pmii 5-25 that I was thinking about selling but I definitely don’t want to take a 1k hit when selling it.
- Thread starter Dm6
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ZCO is probably top dog in scopes currently. Which equates to holding value better. Scopes like S&B, ATACR that sell new for nearly as much lack some of the things that make the ZCO stand out. So you see more S&B/NF for sale as people upgrade to the latest and greatest.
I’m an ATACR guy myself but likely will try a ZCO in the future.
It’s essentially “latest and greatest” vs “semi outdated technology”
I’m an ATACR guy myself but likely will try a ZCO in the future.
It’s essentially “latest and greatest” vs “semi outdated technology”
I don't know if it's gotten better, but I had to wait about 6 weeks for my ZCO after ordering new. Guessing people will pay a premium to avoid the wait.
May not be "the" reason but the ZCO scopes are much more mechanically robust than the S&Bs.
The ZCO's are the only other scopes we have seen that are in the same league as NF and Vortex Razors when it comes to toughness.
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I guess I made a mistake when I bought my pmii then. I should have stayed with the Atacr or gone all the way with a TT or ZCO. When I purchased it I didn’t realize that it would not fit on the rifle I got it for due to the illumination so now I have a bit of an issue 
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For frame of reference: S&B is (on the whole) an awesome scope, and the "law of diminishing returns" plays heavily at this end of the scale.
Unless there is an explicit need the ZCO fills, it becomes a "want" rather than "need" conversation. If you want it, have at it!
Granted, I am a hypocrite in this regard, I got the 4-20 recently and love it. On the flip side, my other go-to wears a TT315M and I ain't selling that for a ZCO - or anything else - any time soon.
Get what you need, and use use use it. Or get what you want and be happy you have it. The latter is far more expensive - as you are noticing...
Unless there is an explicit need the ZCO fills, it becomes a "want" rather than "need" conversation. If you want it, have at it!
Granted, I am a hypocrite in this regard, I got the 4-20 recently and love it. On the flip side, my other go-to wears a TT315M and I ain't selling that for a ZCO - or anything else - any time soon.
Get what you need, and use use use it. Or get what you want and be happy you have it. The latter is far more expensive - as you are noticing...
Very true I was wanting to move up to the tier 1 class scopes and I live not that far from europtic so I took a trip down there to look at them. I decided I didn’t want spend TT money and they don’t carry ZCO so I ended up with an S&B. However when my rifle was finished a few months later I found it would not fit and I was unable to return is so now I have a 4K scope that doesn’t fit my rifle. 
SB has raised their prices twice I think at least over the last year and a half on most models on euros website. Now whether that's both market strategy or issues between the dollar and euro we will never know but there is no way a SB scope new at today's prices is worth the same value as a zco....period
With that said I still like sb scopes and would jump all over ultra shorts for sub 3k especially with their new dtii+ turrets
With that said I still like sb scopes and would jump all over ultra shorts for sub 3k especially with their new dtii+ turrets
S&B msrp has risen substantially in the the last year. Most of the 5-25 were less than 3,000 new. So when it comes to the second hand market resale is much lower (more in line with previous msrp prices).
Here is the answer to your mounting issue
www.milehighshooting.com
Here is the answer to your mounting issue
Spuhr HPC40-30: Picatinny Hunting Rings - 34mm, H/1.18" - Cantilever
Spuhr HPC40-30: Separate hunting 34mm scope rings for Picatinny bases/rails. Spuhr interface for mounting accessories, and one cantilever ring for long actions.
www.milehighshooting.com 
I bought my 2018 5-25 PMII w/ T3 reticle in the PX a year ago for $2K. My 527 ZCO’s cost $3700 each but I prefer them for the turrets, M3 reticle and glass. The eyebox is incredible and resolution and clarity are as well. All better than the PMII but not by a lot. Noticeable though side by side. Worth double? Depends On how much money you have to spend.
If you're a lefty you can have it sent to S&B and they'll remove the illum rheostatI guess I made a mistake when I bought my pmii then. I should have stayed with the Atacr or gone all the way with a TT or ZCO. When I purchased it I didn’t realize that it would not fit on the rifle I got it for due to the illumination so now I have a bit of an issue
There is a reason S&B has been around for decades.
I shoot ambi and that has kept me out of S&B for many years, good to know on removing that "turret."
Do they relocate or just loose illumination?
Not that I am in the market for an S&B.
Do they relocate or just loose illumination?
Not that I am in the market for an S&B.
I have to respectfully disagree I would put my S&B PMII up against my NF and Razor any day of the week when it comes to toughness. Exactly how is it you have arrived at that conclusion?
At the 3K+ price, it's all about what reticle and features you like. Unless you got a scope with bad glass, I think just about everyone agrees you get diminishing returns on investment once you hit that $3400 price range.
I have the 2020 built PMII 5-25 with the Grid reticle, and I love it. The clicks are smooth and positive, sometimes too positive. I skip over the first .1 mil adjustment due to the MTC feature, it tracks well, the glass is super clear even on overcast days. The eye box is very tight it seems.
My buddy has a ZCO 5-27 MPTC 3 reticle. Glass is wonderful, but I've looked out to 1000 yards between his glass and mine. I can't tell the difference with my eyes. I'm sure there's some type of test to show how much better it is, but with my astigmatism I can't tell the difference. The clicks are a hair less heavy compared to the PMII, but supposedly they have some type of different style of erector that doesn't wear out over time? They're so new, only time will tell if that's marketing hype or it lives up to the claim, but I'm willing to believe them. The turrets are WAY more low profile than my double turn locking turrets. It sucks to buy another SPUHR mount for a 36mm tube, when everyone else uses 34mm.
I like both with the exception of the weird circles on the ZCO, but I'm used to my Schmidt reticle so I can't knock it.
In my neck of the woods my scope runs almost the same exact price as a ZCO, I say get the ZCO if you're shooting PRS/NRL competitions. If you're shooting extreme range, the nicer glass with non blind eyes might be really worth it for ELR matches. Shooting out to only 1000 yards, I say it's a wash to my eyes.
I'm still going to buy a ZCO regardless because F the Poors.
I have the 2020 built PMII 5-25 with the Grid reticle, and I love it. The clicks are smooth and positive, sometimes too positive. I skip over the first .1 mil adjustment due to the MTC feature, it tracks well, the glass is super clear even on overcast days. The eye box is very tight it seems.
My buddy has a ZCO 5-27 MPTC 3 reticle. Glass is wonderful, but I've looked out to 1000 yards between his glass and mine. I can't tell the difference with my eyes. I'm sure there's some type of test to show how much better it is, but with my astigmatism I can't tell the difference. The clicks are a hair less heavy compared to the PMII, but supposedly they have some type of different style of erector that doesn't wear out over time? They're so new, only time will tell if that's marketing hype or it lives up to the claim, but I'm willing to believe them. The turrets are WAY more low profile than my double turn locking turrets. It sucks to buy another SPUHR mount for a 36mm tube, when everyone else uses 34mm.
I like both with the exception of the weird circles on the ZCO, but I'm used to my Schmidt reticle so I can't knock it.
In my neck of the woods my scope runs almost the same exact price as a ZCO, I say get the ZCO if you're shooting PRS/NRL competitions. If you're shooting extreme range, the nicer glass with non blind eyes might be really worth it for ELR matches. Shooting out to only 1000 yards, I say it's a wash to my eyes.
I'm still going to buy a ZCO regardless because F the Poors.
TT has a bit better glass than ZCO from most folks that have done in depth reviews.
March has good glass but has some wide field of view scopes that are a significant improvement.
I used to buy S&Bs over the last 20+ years because I strongly preferred their turrets and optical quality. But in recent years all of the major players seem to have evolved their turrets along similar lines, and that's fantastic! It's why I now also have NF and Vortex in my collection. That being said, the used market for S&Bs has been really good lately, and as the models with the newer turrets hit the shelves many retailers are pushing out the older (still excellent scopes) stock at good-for-new prices. That's how I ended up with a few Ultra Shorts lately.
No worries sir. Just sharing my opinion so worth what it cost ya.
I have Okie friends and others that have run S&Bs for years with little or no problems so they obviously do a lot right. We have just seen more mechanical failures with the S&Bs than the others mentioned across several years and a lot of classes.
Many were turret related with the Parallax turret leading the charge. Many others were zero retention issues that for some reason are almost all Windage specific. Owners would even send back to S&B warranty, S&B would mount in a fixture and replicate heavy recoil, scope would pass inspection and upon return the first time it gets bumped especially from the side, they could get stupid.
When I had a life .... and was first considering going to FFP I borrowed a friends tan S&B with lockers to shoot a couple of matches.
It was stellar. I could see little things that I never saw with my other scopes especially to do with impacts and trace. It was very impressive. No issues.
Over the next 36 to 48 months we saw literally dozens of others have mechanical issues.
Go figure.
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How does one determine the toughness of a scope? Based on how many are returned?
You lose it. Cost about 200 bucks from S&B when I did it 3 years ago. It can be added back at a later date for another 200 bucks from what they told me.
We look for patterns from feedback our customer's provide and try to sort through the s/n ratio from online or other sources.
Not sure. I know the US military beats the shit out of their stuff and people go nuts for the 12x S&B in the used market still after snipers have destroyed it for 10 years.
We've moved on to NF for the current contract, most guys I've worked with seem to love it aside from the whole ocular ring rotating when changing mag levels.
now its $350 to have it added back, pic attached of a 5-25 after the chop shop
Attachments
Lefty shooters unite! My 3-27 hi power remains the finest optic I have ever used. Pissed I sold it.
I had a TT315M and it didn't seem worth 4k so I sold it
Can confirm. I was the erector tube.
Ok so admittedly I only have one S&B , two NF and one RazGen2 to use as my sample size, I have never had any issues with any of them, but I don't have near the experience you do either so I will definitely take your word for it.
I didn't realize who you were and your background at first or I wouldn't even have questioned it........Just seemed like a bold statement, but what the hell do I know......LOL
So the Razor Gen2s hold up pretty well hey? That's good to know!
/thread
But mostly because of your first paragraph, and slightly because of your last sentence.
Glass wise my three PMIIs I had…the glass didn’t “blow” me away. Two were ultra shorts…my current Mk6 3-18 has every bit the glass the 3-20 US has…
However the best glass I ever looked through was the 12-50x56 PMII…that was an amazing piece of glass…
However the best glass I ever looked through was the 12-50x56 PMII…that was an amazing piece of glass…
Do they track tho lol
My mk6 does just fine with the M5C2 now the M5B2 turrets suck a big one…
Lol Is the reticle true?
Leupold Mark 5HD 5-25x56 Rifle Scope with PR2-MIL reticle review
BigJimFish reviews the Leupold Mark 5HD 5-25x56 rifle scope, a scope with excellent competition / hunting crossover and the new, pro shooter designed, PR2-MIL reticle
www.snipershide.com Lol. That’s a mk5hd…hahaLol Is the reticle true?
Leupold Mark 5HD 5-25x56 Rifle Scope with PR2-MIL reticle review
BigJimFish reviews the Leupold Mark 5HD 5-25x56 rifle scope, a scope with excellent competition / hunting crossover and the new, pro shooter designed, PR2-MIL reticle
But yes my Tremor 3 reticle is squared away…
What else you got? Oh yeah. It lives on a SCAR too and surviving just good…
Guessing you don’t like Leupold…
I feel like they leave alot to be desired but to each their own ....save that meme though for you own future use
Hahahaha... Sir, ALWAYS question stuff on internet forums. Especially anything coming out of my own pie hole.
I'm just an inbred redneck and trying to learn stuff every day and absolutely do not have it all figured out.
I just throw opinions out sometimes when sniffing around here but so do 10,000 other peeps.
One of the cool things about this forum is we can ask questions, ask for explanations, share experiences and debate everything from tits to reticles.
./
Hi,
One day when I grow up I hope I can have the amount of knowledge based on application as you do, is there such as thing as "honorary" inbred redneck? Asking for a Ukrainian friend of mine, lol.
Sincerely,
Theis
I get it the internet and everyone has had good and bad experiences right ? As stated above... How can you really test a scope for toughens. I ask this with all seriousness. ??
As Terry and others have chimed in who have seen more than their fair share.....Is it safe to assume that it is impressive the " most" scopes hold up pretty well to a fair amount of abuse ?? While we buy scopes for certain features we like, IE reticles, illumination, turrets, glass etc. They all can brake or have issues ? Ive seen or heard of almost every scope or flavor having an issue we know that can happen...its a human made product for the most part, and complex small parts that take a beating.
My question is it a certain force in a certain direction that causes most issues ? If thats known ? Ive had SB that had the above mentioned issue when hit from the side and had issues, have had an issue with leupold mk6, and have sent a vortex in as well.
I guess my question is what constitutes the "level" of abuse it needs to take and what quantifies that ? Is it a drop test, falling over on a bipod, front end collision in a car or throwing out of helicopter ? I feel that most scopes take the abuse of us using it for "most" everyday purposes. Are you guys seeing alot of scopes failing in everyday sniper classes that may get bumped climbing a ladder, or knocked over ? Sorry random rant i guess.
As Terry and others have chimed in who have seen more than their fair share.....Is it safe to assume that it is impressive the " most" scopes hold up pretty well to a fair amount of abuse ?? While we buy scopes for certain features we like, IE reticles, illumination, turrets, glass etc. They all can brake or have issues ? Ive seen or heard of almost every scope or flavor having an issue we know that can happen...its a human made product for the most part, and complex small parts that take a beating.
My question is it a certain force in a certain direction that causes most issues ? If thats known ? Ive had SB that had the above mentioned issue when hit from the side and had issues, have had an issue with leupold mk6, and have sent a vortex in as well.
I guess my question is what constitutes the "level" of abuse it needs to take and what quantifies that ? Is it a drop test, falling over on a bipod, front end collision in a car or throwing out of helicopter ? I feel that most scopes take the abuse of us using it for "most" everyday purposes. Are you guys seeing alot of scopes failing in everyday sniper classes that may get bumped climbing a ladder, or knocked over ? Sorry random rant i guess.
@THEIS - we need feet pics to determine redneck status.
May also require an all nighter giggin frogs, a long day of noodlin, and a big mudbug boil for testing.
my buddy in Houma has the hookup for the mudbugs. Lemme know, I can be there!!
Sleeveless flannel on and ready to travel!!
May also require an all nighter giggin frogs, a long day of noodlin, and a big mudbug boil for testing.
my buddy in Houma has the hookup for the mudbugs. Lemme know, I can be there!!
Sleeveless flannel on and ready to travel!!
I don't disagree...I like their Mark 4 lines and the Mk6 3-18 with the M5C2...I feel like they released a solid optic with that model...I feel like they leave alot to be desired but to each their own ....save that meme though for you own future use
I don't have experience with the Mark 5HD line...or the Mark 8...
Abuse is multifaceted and I'd say most optics from a quality manufacturer nowadays can handle whatever you throw at them but there is always that "one" situation that makes it to the internet and becomes gospel...
Hi,
Most scopes that "go down" are not from abuse but from mechanical failure. In which that mechanical part was/is going to fail pretty much no matter what the user does to the scope.
Very few civilians are abusive to their high dollar scopes so the number that go down from abuse are few and far in between.
All it takes for a mechanical failure is to have a damn internal O-ring shrink more than it is specified to shrink in 10 degree F weather. It doesn't take chunking my scope from the 5th floor tower.
Now if we want to get into the technicalities of testing an optic for "toughness". Well that is pretty simple and scientific approach.
Just follow the MIL-Stds on optics vibration, optics drop test, optics G force test, optics tracking requirements, etc etc etc....The standards are called "standards" for a reason.....anyone can follow them and replicate the testing procedures.
Sincerely,
Theis
Most scopes that "go down" are not from abuse but from mechanical failure. In which that mechanical part was/is going to fail pretty much no matter what the user does to the scope.
Very few civilians are abusive to their high dollar scopes so the number that go down from abuse are few and far in between.
All it takes for a mechanical failure is to have a damn internal O-ring shrink more than it is specified to shrink in 10 degree F weather. It doesn't take chunking my scope from the 5th floor tower.
Now if we want to get into the technicalities of testing an optic for "toughness". Well that is pretty simple and scientific approach.
Just follow the MIL-Stds on optics vibration, optics drop test, optics G force test, optics tracking requirements, etc etc etc....The standards are called "standards" for a reason.....anyone can follow them and replicate the testing procedures.
Sincerely,
Theis
I use extra ZCO’s I have laying around in Spuhr mounts of course but not on guns to discipline my children. F’ the poors.
I have to admit that I was surprised to read this too. But I understand mechanical issues happen. I’ve sent both a set of Ziess Victory binos and a Minox ZP5 back for issues and I do not abuse my gear (on purpose).
Have 3 SB’s lefty has never been an issue. (with correct mount)
