I've heard different opinions about setting up a short scope on a carbine. Should it be done at 50 or 100 yards? I'm leaning towards zeroing at 50 yds due to the fact that its a fighting weapon, not a precision rifle
Zero on carbine
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Re: Zero on carbine
what scope, some have BDC reticles in them that require a 100 yard zero for the hold over to work ?
what scope, some have BDC reticles in them that require a 100 yard zero for the hold over to work ?
Re: Zero on carbine
The latest and greatest I've been getting from everyone I talk to is switching from a 50 yard zero to a 100 yard zero. We use to do a 50 because something about the bullet was on an upward ark that was similar in elevation to the downward ark at 300. What everyone is finding in Irag is that most all engagements are within 100, usually around 60 yards. That being said a 100 yard zero will serve you well on a carbine (I'm assuming we are talking 5.56). We switched to a 100 yard zero, and part of our qual is at 300 yards, aim at the head and you should have no problem.
The latest and greatest I've been getting from everyone I talk to is switching from a 50 yard zero to a 100 yard zero. We use to do a 50 because something about the bullet was on an upward ark that was similar in elevation to the downward ark at 300. What everyone is finding in Irag is that most all engagements are within 100, usually around 60 yards. That being said a 100 yard zero will serve you well on a carbine (I'm assuming we are talking 5.56). We switched to a 100 yard zero, and part of our qual is at 300 yards, aim at the head and you should have no problem.
Re: Zero on carbine
Good stuff jakhmr81, thanx
Lowlight, I have an aimpoint m3 and an eotech 552 that I picked up on ebay. I'm still trying to decide which one I like better
Good stuff jakhmr81, thanx
Lowlight, I have an aimpoint m3 and an eotech 552 that I picked up on ebay. I'm still trying to decide which one I like better
Re: Zero on carbine
We do just the opposite. Since we are a city department it is doubtful we would engage anything beyond 100 yds, more likely 50yds and in. We zero the Eotechs at 50 and know that any shots closer to cqb distance would be 3 inches or less high, and any shot to 100yds would be three inches or less low depending on actual distance.
We do just the opposite. Since we are a city department it is doubtful we would engage anything beyond 100 yds, more likely 50yds and in. We zero the Eotechs at 50 and know that any shots closer to cqb distance would be 3 inches or less high, and any shot to 100yds would be three inches or less low depending on actual distance.
Re: Zero on carbine
Hanks
Here is a link to the directions on Aimpoint's website.
http://www.aimpoint.com/upload/products/manual/Manual_M3ML3_inplastad_11432-1.pdf
I have zeroed both Aimpoints and Eotech's and I always have done the BZO target method and then confirmed the zero at the true distance while in the Marine Corp. With my current job 300-500 yards is not really needed so I do the 50 yard zeros. Just zero the rifle and then set up a few targets at 25, 75, and 100 yards and see where the bullets impact at those distances.
For whats its worth I carry a Eotech 552 on my M-4 and a 511 on my MP-5 at work. Both are zeroed at 50 yards and depending on the details of the call out decides which one I carry.
Good luck getting them zeroed. both are very easy to zero and will serve you well. I also work for a city PD for what its worth.
Watch your 6
Hanks
Here is a link to the directions on Aimpoint's website.
http://www.aimpoint.com/upload/products/manual/Manual_M3ML3_inplastad_11432-1.pdf
I have zeroed both Aimpoints and Eotech's and I always have done the BZO target method and then confirmed the zero at the true distance while in the Marine Corp. With my current job 300-500 yards is not really needed so I do the 50 yard zeros. Just zero the rifle and then set up a few targets at 25, 75, and 100 yards and see where the bullets impact at those distances.
For whats its worth I carry a Eotech 552 on my M-4 and a 511 on my MP-5 at work. Both are zeroed at 50 yards and depending on the details of the call out decides which one I carry.
Good luck getting them zeroed. both are very easy to zero and will serve you well. I also work for a city PD for what its worth.
Watch your 6
Re: Zero on carbine
If you get a chance, PM Cowboy Bravo. Extremely knowledgeable on the AR platform for LE, and can steer you in the best direction and give you the how and why.
If you get a chance, PM Cowboy Bravo. Extremely knowledgeable on the AR platform for LE, and can steer you in the best direction and give you the how and why.
Re: Zero on carbine
Cowboy Bravo does a 50 yard because ballistically with most rounds it gives you the least amount of movement up and down as necessary within the working space of the system.
Unless he changed something... he is running a lot of Elcans now, so that is zeroed at 100 yards, but with the others, I believe he does a 50 yard zero.
Cowboy Bravo does a 50 yard because ballistically with most rounds it gives you the least amount of movement up and down as necessary within the working space of the system.
Unless he changed something... he is running a lot of Elcans now, so that is zeroed at 100 yards, but with the others, I believe he does a 50 yard zero.
Re: Zero on carbine
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Hanks</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I've heard different opinions about setting up a short scope on a carbine. Should it be done at 50 or 100 yards? I'm leaning towards zeroing at 50 yds due to the fact that its a fighting weapon, not a precision rifle </div></div>
Unless you are using an optic that requires a specific zero with a specific bullet, use a 50 yard zero. This will (assuming a whole lot of stuff) give you a point blank range of approximately 275 yards +/- 2.5 inches. I don't thaink that you are going to do any better than that with a 223 carbine, other than to fight your way to a bigger rifle! Guesstimated trajectory follows.
50yd BZO
0yds -2.5"
50yds 0"
100yds 1.46"
150yds 1.78" max ordinate
225yds 0"
250yds -1.48"
300yds -5.43"
350yds -11.13"
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Hanks</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I've heard different opinions about setting up a short scope on a carbine. Should it be done at 50 or 100 yards? I'm leaning towards zeroing at 50 yds due to the fact that its a fighting weapon, not a precision rifle </div></div>
Unless you are using an optic that requires a specific zero with a specific bullet, use a 50 yard zero. This will (assuming a whole lot of stuff) give you a point blank range of approximately 275 yards +/- 2.5 inches. I don't thaink that you are going to do any better than that with a 223 carbine, other than to fight your way to a bigger rifle! Guesstimated trajectory follows.
50yd BZO
0yds -2.5"
50yds 0"
100yds 1.46"
150yds 1.78" max ordinate
225yds 0"
250yds -1.48"
300yds -5.43"
350yds -11.13"
Re: Zero on carbine
Umm keithtb1 I think you have your holds for ranges less than and greater than 50 yards dangerously switched around. Less than 50 yards (with a 50 yd. BZO) and you are going to be LOW, greater than 50 yards and you are going to be HIGH until you hit the 225 yd. mark mentioned in Carnivore's post.
See Carnivore's ballistic chart above.
Umm keithtb1 I think you have your holds for ranges less than and greater than 50 yards dangerously switched around. Less than 50 yards (with a 50 yd. BZO) and you are going to be LOW, greater than 50 yards and you are going to be HIGH until you hit the 225 yd. mark mentioned in Carnivore's post.
See Carnivore's ballistic chart above.
Re: Zero on carbine
Sorry should have explained it better. Was talking point of aim/point of impact. Up closer to CQB distance we would aim high and farther out distance up to 100yds we would aim lower, both within 3 inches depending on length of barrel and bullet type. Glad you caught that. As I reread my post I would have thought it was backwards also. Thanks.
Sorry should have explained it better. Was talking point of aim/point of impact. Up closer to CQB distance we would aim high and farther out distance up to 100yds we would aim lower, both within 3 inches depending on length of barrel and bullet type. Glad you caught that. As I reread my post I would have thought it was backwards also. Thanks.
Re: Zero on carbine
50yd zero for me, but since each rifle is a little different I pretty muc know what the gun will shoot to at variable ranges
50yd zero for me, but since each rifle is a little different I pretty muc know what the gun will shoot to at variable ranges
Re: Zero on carbine
Hanks,
Been busy all week and have not been able to get on the hide...
This is my take.
Depends on what you are doing with it. LE classes I teach a 100 yard zero using a Chudwin 100 zero target. I like the 100 yard zero for cops because they are rarely going to engage beyond 100 yards so they don't have to be bothered with bullet drop etc... All the nned to know is mechanical offset at 25 feet to muzzle contact and everything else is point of aim point of impact.
I also reccomend the 100 yard zero for most recreational or personal defense shooters for the same reasons above.
The military classes I teach a 50 yard zero. The 50 yard zero allows the shooter to engage targets out to 300 yards with approximately 8 inches of bullet rise/drop depending on the bullet and weapon. The problem with the 50 yard zero is many people over think it when engaging multiple targets at multiple distances.
The problem I see with a 25 yard zero is you end up with a 10 inch drop at 200 yards. From a combat perspective 10 inches is a lot to rap your miond around while getting shot at and you are trying to hit a target that is exposing only part of their body for a few seconds.
What you see with the 50 yard zero is roughly 1 to 1.5 inches high at 100 yards, reaches almost 2 inches at 150 yards starts to drop and reaches a "return zero" at approximately 210 yards and continues to drop slowly where it is 7 to 8 inches low at 300 yards. Beyond 300 yards is where you see the 55 grain really drop, about 10 inches at 325 and 14 inches at 350.
People like the 25 yard zero for all the wrong reasons. First off they like knowing they can zero their gun almost anywhere, 25 yards is easy to find. People see really nice groups at 25 yards because the mistakes are not as pronounced as they are in the farther distances. Lastly, they look only at the return zero (when the bullet drops back into the line point of aim or line of sight) which ends up being around 360 yards. That return zero looks good on paper but the deviation between the zero and the return zero is great. Add that devation to the fact that most engagements do not occur at 360 yards and most shooters can not hit small moving limited exposed targets at that distance the common sense begins to smack you in the back of the head.
Hanks,
Been busy all week and have not been able to get on the hide...
This is my take.
Depends on what you are doing with it. LE classes I teach a 100 yard zero using a Chudwin 100 zero target. I like the 100 yard zero for cops because they are rarely going to engage beyond 100 yards so they don't have to be bothered with bullet drop etc... All the nned to know is mechanical offset at 25 feet to muzzle contact and everything else is point of aim point of impact.
I also reccomend the 100 yard zero for most recreational or personal defense shooters for the same reasons above.
The military classes I teach a 50 yard zero. The 50 yard zero allows the shooter to engage targets out to 300 yards with approximately 8 inches of bullet rise/drop depending on the bullet and weapon. The problem with the 50 yard zero is many people over think it when engaging multiple targets at multiple distances.
The problem I see with a 25 yard zero is you end up with a 10 inch drop at 200 yards. From a combat perspective 10 inches is a lot to rap your miond around while getting shot at and you are trying to hit a target that is exposing only part of their body for a few seconds.
What you see with the 50 yard zero is roughly 1 to 1.5 inches high at 100 yards, reaches almost 2 inches at 150 yards starts to drop and reaches a "return zero" at approximately 210 yards and continues to drop slowly where it is 7 to 8 inches low at 300 yards. Beyond 300 yards is where you see the 55 grain really drop, about 10 inches at 325 and 14 inches at 350.
People like the 25 yard zero for all the wrong reasons. First off they like knowing they can zero their gun almost anywhere, 25 yards is easy to find. People see really nice groups at 25 yards because the mistakes are not as pronounced as they are in the farther distances. Lastly, they look only at the return zero (when the bullet drops back into the line point of aim or line of sight) which ends up being around 360 yards. That return zero looks good on paper but the deviation between the zero and the return zero is great. Add that devation to the fact that most engagements do not occur at 360 yards and most shooters can not hit small moving limited exposed targets at that distance the common sense begins to smack you in the back of the head.
Re: Zero on carbine
My deer guns are either 20ga rifled shotguns or my lever action Win '94AE .44mag trapper carbine. The local ground is generally wooded, and longer shots are very limited. The local scuttlebutt says to sight in for about 70yd, which works well with both the .44mag and 20ga slugs/sabots. Out of long gun/carbine barrels, the two chamberings have nearly identical ballistics. My sights are essentially all dot scopes, as I find them easiest to employ with both eyes open.
For CQB, if I were so inclined; I'd probably like a shorter semi 20ga shotgun with a rifled choke and alternated #4 buck and simple Rem Slugger loads. The Rem Sluggers are remarkably accurate at 70yd from the rifled choke, and the #4 buck and rifled choke combine to swirl out the charge into a storm of .22cal pellets that expand to sweep an entire halway from about 8yd on out. There are 20-22 #4 buck pellets in the typical 20ga buck load. That's a number of projos roughly equal to a basic 20rd .223 magazine..., per shot. BG's should stay out of my hallways, for their health.
Greg
My deer guns are either 20ga rifled shotguns or my lever action Win '94AE .44mag trapper carbine. The local ground is generally wooded, and longer shots are very limited. The local scuttlebutt says to sight in for about 70yd, which works well with both the .44mag and 20ga slugs/sabots. Out of long gun/carbine barrels, the two chamberings have nearly identical ballistics. My sights are essentially all dot scopes, as I find them easiest to employ with both eyes open.
For CQB, if I were so inclined; I'd probably like a shorter semi 20ga shotgun with a rifled choke and alternated #4 buck and simple Rem Slugger loads. The Rem Sluggers are remarkably accurate at 70yd from the rifled choke, and the #4 buck and rifled choke combine to swirl out the charge into a storm of .22cal pellets that expand to sweep an entire halway from about 8yd on out. There are 20-22 #4 buck pellets in the typical 20ga buck load. That's a number of projos roughly equal to a basic 20rd .223 magazine..., per shot. BG's should stay out of my hallways, for their health.
Greg
Re: Zero on carbine
200 yard zero on an iron sighted AR carbine.
Carbine clicks are 1.44 MOA/click (for ref).
You are on somewhere around 50 yards to begin with, but you can't really miss anything in between you and 200 yards with that zero.
If you paint the top side on the elevation knob with the corresponding range numbers: 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7.
Start with a 100 yard zero for the mechanical zero, 200 yard base zero is one click up from there (use the flat spot on the elevation knob for 200).
You can have a competent iron sighted carbine that can hit silhouettes out to 600 yards with ease, and can hit anything within you, and 200 yards, with no sight adjustments.
Even if I never planned to shoot that far, I'd still rather possess a weapon that could be used to it's fullest capability.
Needs no batteries, can be amazingly accurate, and zero parallax.
200 yard zero on an iron sighted AR carbine.
Carbine clicks are 1.44 MOA/click (for ref).
You are on somewhere around 50 yards to begin with, but you can't really miss anything in between you and 200 yards with that zero.
If you paint the top side on the elevation knob with the corresponding range numbers: 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7.
Start with a 100 yard zero for the mechanical zero, 200 yard base zero is one click up from there (use the flat spot on the elevation knob for 200).
You can have a competent iron sighted carbine that can hit silhouettes out to 600 yards with ease, and can hit anything within you, and 200 yards, with no sight adjustments.
Even if I never planned to shoot that far, I'd still rather possess a weapon that could be used to it's fullest capability.
Needs no batteries, can be amazingly accurate, and zero parallax.
Re: Zero on carbine
For the "what it's worth department"
The USAMU, in their sniper schools for LE recommended the 250 yard zero for the 223 LE Rifle.
Their ideal is based on the ideal that one could make a head shot up to 300 yards, aiming at the mouth-nose area and not have to worry about hold over or under.
This being the 55 grn 223 @ 3250 FPS (M-193)
This would put the round about .9 high at 50, 2.4" high at 100, 2.10 high at 200, and 3.7 low at 300 yards. (if for some odd reason you wanted to go to 400, you were about 17 inches low so that aiming at the same mouth nose area would give you a heart/lung shot).
This seemed to work in the LE Sniper Schools I ran. When I attended the NRA LE Rifle Instructors course the farthest we shot was 100 yards. There was a mailing lable put on the forhead of the target, the same 250 yard zero allowed you to hit the label using the same hold without problems.
I'm talking counter sniper rifles here, but since I've retired I found the same zero works to 400 yards using iron sights on a AR using iron shights in "3" or Multi gun shooting.
PS: This also works on priaree dogs up to 300 yards if you are an old has been like me.
For the "what it's worth department"
The USAMU, in their sniper schools for LE recommended the 250 yard zero for the 223 LE Rifle.
Their ideal is based on the ideal that one could make a head shot up to 300 yards, aiming at the mouth-nose area and not have to worry about hold over or under.
This being the 55 grn 223 @ 3250 FPS (M-193)
This would put the round about .9 high at 50, 2.4" high at 100, 2.10 high at 200, and 3.7 low at 300 yards. (if for some odd reason you wanted to go to 400, you were about 17 inches low so that aiming at the same mouth nose area would give you a heart/lung shot).
This seemed to work in the LE Sniper Schools I ran. When I attended the NRA LE Rifle Instructors course the farthest we shot was 100 yards. There was a mailing lable put on the forhead of the target, the same 250 yard zero allowed you to hit the label using the same hold without problems.
I'm talking counter sniper rifles here, but since I've retired I found the same zero works to 400 yards using iron sights on a AR using iron shights in "3" or Multi gun shooting.
PS: This also works on priaree dogs up to 300 yards if you are an old has been like me.
Re: Zero on carbine
A fixed carry handle, iron sighted carbine, with a FF handgaurd, descent trigger, and firing 68's to 77's (with a calibrated elevation knob), is a tool to behold.
A fixed carry handle, iron sighted carbine, with a FF handgaurd, descent trigger, and firing 68's to 77's (with a calibrated elevation knob), is a tool to behold.
Re: Zero on carbine
I run a 300 yard zero because I can. And most of my AR shooting is done between 200 and 425 yards.
I run a 300 yard zero because I can. And most of my AR shooting is done between 200 and 425 yards.
Re: Zero on carbine
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: cowboy_bravo</div><div class="ubbcode-body">10 inches is a lot to wrap your mind around while getting shot at and you are trying to hit a target that is exposing only part of their body for a few seconds. </div></div>
Sorry, couldn't resist- it's too easy to make funny
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: cowboy_bravo</div><div class="ubbcode-body">10 inches is a lot to wrap your mind around while getting shot at and you are trying to hit a target that is exposing only part of their body for a few seconds. </div></div>
Sorry, couldn't resist- it's too easy to make funny
