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Zero Range for 16in Recce

Jigstick

“What’s the matter colonel sanders….chicken?”
Full Member
Minuteman
  • Jul 21, 2017
    2,255
    2,976
    Pittsburgh PA
    Going to the range tomorrow to zero a 16in WOA 223 wylde barrel i slapped on my RECCE build. Wondering what distance I should zero this at. Shooting 77g SMKs. Any recommendations? On my MK18s i do 36yd zeros, but that seems stupid for this 16in setup.
     
    Going to the range tomorrow to zero a 16in WOA 223 wylde barrel i slapped on my RECCE build. Wondering what distance I should zero this at. Shooting 77g SMKs. Any recommendations? On my MK18s i do 36yd zeros, but that seems stupid for this 16in setup.

    ....why would you think it's stupid for a 16" carbine?

    ...the concept behind a 36YD zero is to decrease the "cone of fire" at distances up to 350YDS and allow a CM hold to obtain a higher percentage of disabling hits, which is the typical "effective" engagement range of a 16" 223/556 on "humanoid" objects. Remember, the typical issue M4 series is equipped with a 14.5" barrel, that's only shorter by approximately measuring from the tip of your forefinger to the 2nd knuckle.
     
    ....why would you think it's stupid for a 16" carbine?

    ...the concept behind a 36YD zero is to decrease the "cone of fire" at distances up to 350YDS and allow a CM hold to obtain a higher percentage of disabling hits, which is the typical "effective" engagement range of a 16" 223/556 on "humanoid" objects. Remember, the typical issue M4 series is equipped with a 14.5" barrel, that's only shorter by approximately measuring from the tip of your forefinger to the 2nd knuckle.
    Iirc the 36yd zero is a holdover from when M16s had 20 inch barrels. That zero allowed the elevation marks on the rear A2 sight to correspond to their marked yardages.
     
    Going to the range tomorrow to zero a 16in WOA 223 wylde barrel i slapped on my RECCE build. Wondering what distance I should zero this at. Shooting 77g SMKs. Any recommendations? On my MK18s i do 36yd zeros, but that seems stupid for this 16in setup.

    Regarding the 36 yard zero get your average velocity and mess with a ballistics calculator. There might be better zero a few yards less or more than 36. The 36 is essentially a maximum point blank range set up. Choose your mpbr, 2", 2.5", 3" and pick your zero from there.
     
    Magnified or Dots?

    Magnified: 100 yards. Always. Know your holds
    Dots. 50 yards was the going theory (corresponds to 50/200 yards for SOME ammo). I follow the 100 yard and "know your holds" personnaly.

    Why I don't like the 36 yard: Its really tough to verify distance (and for me setup that distance). the 50/200 at least allows you to confirm at 200 and everywhere has a 50.

    edit: I don't use BDC reticles as i change ammo a lot.
     
    Last edited:
    3C571455-D149-42F2-94E7-37B9FF3A1C75.jpeg


    Seekins upper/lower receivers
    WOA 16in intermediate gas length
    223 Wylde
    Hiperfire trigger
    Young Manufacturing chrome BCG
    Vltor A5
    B5 Sopmod stock
    BCM grip
    Atlas Bipod
    Spuhr Mount
    Leupold VXR patrol 3-9. Gotta replace this.
     
    Iirc the 36yd zero is a holdover from when M16s had 20 inch barrels. That zero allowed the elevation marks on the rear A2 sight to correspond to their marked yardages.

    ...actually when 20" M16's (19.75" sight radius) were standard issue the zero was @25M as it allowed for the standard round crossing the line-of-sight at 25M and 300M using the "L" sight, providing a 300M POA/POI for high probability of CM hits. When the M4 Carbines (15" sight radius) were introduced, it was proposed to adopt a 200M zero as the M4's point-of-impact of the bullet is within three inches of the point-of-aim of the rifle out to about 250M. With a 300M zero, the point-of-impact of the bullet was about seven inches above the point-of-aim at 200M for the M4 carbine, requiring a lower hold to hit CM. The 36M zero was developed as it accounted for a "flatter trajectory" and decreased rise and drop above line of sight/POA between 36M-250M using iron sights.

    Without going down a mathematics rabbit hole, one could chrony their load and plug the numbers into a tool like JBM's free online calculator to see the plus and minus numbers along a line of sight distance to determine the flattest trajectory for their equipment and set their zero up based off that info.
     
    They will custom spin anything you want. I modeled that barrel after a Noveske switchblock barrel I had from years ago. Custom gas port hole size. This is by far the smoothest shooting AR I’ve built so far

    The scope on there I put on before the LPVOs came on market. And honestly it’s very functional. Illuminated center dot that’s day time bright. And can shoot both eyes open with it on 3x. Not ideal but it works. Surprisingly good eye box.
     
    View attachment 7785540

    Seekins upper/lower receivers
    WOA 16in intermediate gas length
    223 Wylde
    Hiperfire trigger
    Young Manufacturing chrome BCG
    Vltor A5
    B5 Sopmod stock
    BCM grip
    Atlas Bipod
    Spuhr Mount
    Leupold VXR patrol 3-9. Gotta replace this.

    ...if this is the 16" you were referring to in your OP, then you would zero the SCOPE at 100 meters or yards, whichever the scope manufacture recommends...
     
    Yes this is the rifle. So I’ll zero the scope at 100 meters. Then when I throw a micro red dot on a 45* offset I’ll zero that at 36 give or take
     
    ...actually when 20" M16's (19.75" sight radius) were standard issue the zero was @25M as it allowed for the standard round crossing the line-of-sight at 25M and 300M using the "L" sight, providing a 300M POA/POI for high probability of CM hits. When the M4 Carbines (15" sight radius) were introduced, it was proposed to adopt a 200M zero as the M4's point-of-impact of the bullet is within three inches of the point-of-aim of the rifle out to about 250M. With a 300M zero, the point-of-impact of the bullet was about seven inches above the point-of-aim at 200M for the M4 carbine, requiring a lower hold to hit CM. The 36M zero was developed as it accounted for a "flatter trajectory" and decreased rise and drop above line of sight/POA between 36M-250M using iron sights.

    Without going down a mathematics rabbit hole, one could chrony their load and plug the numbers into a tool like JBM's free online calculator to see the plus and minus numbers along a line of sight distance to determine the flattest trajectory for their equipment and set their zero up based off that info.
    Im not sure what branch of service you were in, but the USMC M16A2/A4 zero was put the rear elevation at 8/3z and zero at 33m (36y) in every unit I was with. Shit probably changed since I got out (2008).
     
    Yes this is the rifle. So I’ll zero the scope at 100 meters. Then when I throw a micro red dot on a 45* offset I’ll zero that at 36 give or take
    With magnified optics on a rifle, its more logical to have a POA/POI of 100y zero because after 100y it's only positive elevation changes form there (i.e. only coming "up" in elevation to correct for impacts beyond 100y). In other words, at 100y the bullet is at its highest point of travel above the bore axis where it intersects with the line of sight, and after 100y the bullet is losing altitude.
     
    I have my 16" recce sighted at 100 and have shot it out to 1000 with 77s. The scope has a mil reticle which I use for holds out to 675 at my local range, after that I will start to dial up.

    Here are tables that I created using Strelok-

    36 Yard Zero
    Screenshot_20220115-234025_Strelok Pro.jpg


    100 Yard Zero
    Screenshot_20220115-234156_Strelok Pro.jpg


    I get the reasoning behind a 36 yard zero but I use the same zero for all my rifles, except 22LR, for consistency.
     
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    100 yards is the answer for all magnified optics. Learning to shoot involves knowing your equipment.
    General purpose rifles are good for many distances far beyond most peoples abilities. Call it what you want but recce is an action. Therefore, any rifle used on a recce is a recce rifle.
     
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    ...actually when 20" M16's (19.75" sight radius) were standard issue the zero was @25M as it allowed for the standard round crossing the line-of-sight at 25M and 300M using the "L" sight, providing a 300M POA/POI for high probability of CM hits. When the M4 Carbines (15" sight radius) were introduced, it was proposed to adopt a 200M zero as the M4's point-of-impact of the bullet is within three inches of the point-of-aim of the rifle out to about 250M. With a 300M zero, the point-of-impact of the bullet was about seven inches above the point-of-aim at 200M for the M4 carbine, requiring a lower hold to hit CM. The 36M zero was developed as it accounted for a "flatter trajectory" and decreased rise and drop above line of sight/POA between 36M-250M using iron sights.

    Without going down a mathematics rabbit hole, one could chrony their load and plug the numbers into a tool like JBM's free online calculator to see the plus and minus numbers along a line of sight distance to determine the flattest trajectory for their equipment and set their zero up based off that info.

    So much false information in a single post that I’m not going to waste my time addressing all of it and will just address the first error with a quote straight from the FM 23-9.



    FM 23-9

    “M16A1 STANDARD SIGHTS AND ZEROING

    . . . the bullet crosses line of sight at 25 meters, reaches a maximum height above line of sight of about 11 inches at 225 meters, and crosses line of sight again at 375 meters




    m16a1_zeroing_from_23_9_02-2242386.jpg






     
    ....why would you think it's stupid for a 16" carbine?

    ...the concept behind a 36YD zero is to decrease the "cone of fire" at distances up to 350YDS and allow a CM hold to obtain a higher percentage of disabling hits, which is the typical "effective" engagement range of a 16" 223/556 on "humanoid" objects. Remember, the typical issue M4 series is equipped with a 14.5" barrel, that's only shorter by approximately measuring from the tip of your forefinger to the 2nd knuckle.
    The problem with close range zeros like the 25m or 36y zeros, is that these are really compromised zeros that were employed out of administrative conveniences. Yes they seem to offer (in theory) good ballistic solutions but in reality they don't work out as well as one would hope.

    The problems that you'll run into are listed as follows...

    1. Magnified optics (even LPVOs) tend to have parallax issues at said ranges, even small errors in zeros at these ranges become exagrated at employment ranges. I cant tell you how many times I've seen dudes conduct a close range zero and assume that they are good only to be bamboozeled at distance. 100y/m is the recommend distance for a reason, we are not talking about iron sights any more and that requires mindset shift. Yes PBZ's are still a thing and can easily be employed off a 100y/m zero but starting at 25/36 m/y and thinking your good is ignorant. Only exception is maybe a BDC reticle under certain situations.

    2. Most "Humanoid" targeting concepts center around the idea of a full presentation. Now its hard to say exactly but this is actually pretty fucking rare in modern combatives baring CQC. Humans tend to move and seek cover/concealment in gun fights, especially at intermediate distances. The days of laying prone and cutting down Huns marching a cross wheat fields are gone. If you're lucky you might get heads and shoulders...maybe. So why the fuck would we employ a targeting concept like the 25m or 36y zero when that favors a sighting scenario thats not likely to occur?

    You've done the math already and those targeting concepts are going to put your cone of fire high or even above the commonly presented target profiles and thats assuming your best application of the fundaments of marksmanship.

    Bottom line is yes we want to stack the deck in our favor BUT given the technology and tactics at hand, 25m or 36y zeros leave a lot on the table.

    Edit: Additional errors that occur with close range zeros is the actual range. Errors +/- a few yards or meters is not a big deal at 100 but closer in +/- a few starts to create error, its not horrible but it isn't great either.
     
    Last edited:
    Most "Humanoid" targeting concepts center around the idea of a full presentation. Now its hard to say exactly but this is actually pretty fucking rare in modern combatives baring CQC. Humans tend to move and seek cover/concealment in gun fights, especially at intermediate distances.
    Exactly. Simple training targets that simulate a more realistic situation provide a much better evaluation of different sighting schemes and 300 meter/yard schemes are poorly suited for such circumstances.

    Front Sight's target simulating an aggressor shooting from around hard cover is an excellent target for realistic training. Any targets that simulate the head and shoulders of the aggressor shooting in the prone position/shooting from over hard cover also make for great training and demonstrate the weaknesses of the 300 meter/yard zeroing schemes.



    front_sight_cover_target_01_resized-2242718.jpg





    head_and_shoulders_target_001-2242717.jpg



    ...
     
    Last edited:
    Pop quiz.

    What is the most commonly missed target on the US Army 300 meter pop-up range, when using a 300 meter zero?

    • 50 meter target
    • 150 meter target
    • 300 meter target
    • None of the above


    .....
     
    Pop quiz.

    What is the most commonly missed target on the US Army 300 meter pop-up range, when using a 300 meter zero?

    • 50 meter target
    • 150 meter target
    • 300 meter target
    • None of the above


    .....
    50?
     
    Pop quiz.

    What is the most commonly missed target on the US Army 300 meter pop-up range, when using a 300 meter zero?

    • 50 meter target
    • 150 meter target
    • 300 meter target
    • None of the above


    .....
    I'll guess 150 since you're looking at about a 6" hold under which feels very counterintuitive without some understanding of external ballistics.
     
    Probably 300, but I don't know if I'd necessarily say it was because it was "missed". I'm going to go in the way back machine but if I remember correctly, a soldier could play the numbers game, not shoot the 300 meter targets, and still get Expert.

    ETA: This is based on when I qualified on the M16A2 and M4 in the 2001-2007 timeframe, I believe the course of fire has changed to where there are more 300 meter exposures so you can't do that anymore.
     
    Going to the range tomorrow to zero a 16in WOA 223 wylde barrel i slapped on my RECCE build. Wondering what distance I should zero this at. Shooting 77g SMKs. Any recommendations? On my MK18s i do 36yd zeros, but that seems stupid for this 16in setup.

    Before I can give you an intelligent answer I need to know a few things
    1. Does your optic have turrets that are meant just for zeroing, or for both zeroing and dialing elevation?
    2. What kind of reticle is in it?
      1. One with only one reference (duplex, single dot, etc)?
      2. One with BDC stadia?
      3. One with MOA or milliradian stadia?
    3. What do you consider the maximum effective range of your rifle?
    4. What target zone diameter do you consider appropriate for this rifle?
    5. What is the max distance available to shoot over?
    Tell me and I can say something intelligent on the subject instead of blurting an answer without knowing fuck all about the equipment and application in question
     
    100 yards, assuming you put a scope on it. Then know your dope for as far as you can given range and ammo limitations.

    Knowing your dope you can then hold or dial, depending on the situation

    What if it's a BDC scope and the stadia line up the closest to their advertised distances when you zero at 150 yards?

    Not every scope is meant to be dialed. Not every scope has mil or MOA stadia lines on the reticle. And I'm not talking about fudd 3-9X40s with duplex reticles.
     
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    Before I can give you an intelligent answer I need to know a few things
    1. Does your optic have turrets that are meant just for zeroing, or for both zeroing and dialing elevation?
    2. What kind of reticle is in it?
      1. One with only one reference (duplex, single dot, etc)?
      2. One with BDC stadia?
      3. One with MOA or milliradian stadia?
    3. What do you consider the maximum effective range of your rifle?
    4. What target zone diameter do you consider appropriate for this rifle?
    5. What is the max distance available to shoot over?
    Tell me and I can say something intelligent on the subject instead of blurting an answer without knowing fuck all about the equipment and application in question

    The optic has a exposed turrets made for dialing however there is no zero stop. Firedot TMR mil reticle. 1/4MOA turrets though.

    With the 62g and 77g projectiles I’d like to engage targets 600yds and in. Primarily able to hit a vital zone consistent with humans. We do have steel plates of varying size every 100yds all the way out to 1500yds.

    For example. Today I zeroed the optic at 100yds. Shooting at 300yds I was holding 1mil high on the reticle and hammering the 6in steel plate. I’m happy with that type of performance.
     
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    The optic has a exposed turrets made for dialing however there is no zero stop. Firedot TMR mil reticle. 1/4MOA turrets though.

    With the 62g and 77g projectiles I’d like to engage targets 600yds and in. Primarily able to hit a vital zone consistent with humans. We do have steel plates of varying size every 100yds all the way out to 1500yds.

    For example. Today I zeroed the optic at 100yds. Shooting at 300yds I was holding 1mil high on the reticle and hammering the 6in steel plate. I’m happy with that type of performance.

    Zero at 100.

    Make a dope chart with holdovers in mils and come ups in MOA

    Practice both dialing and holding over.

    Don't dial if you have to go up more than one revolution and be careful coming back down to zero.
     
    That’s the primary issue I have with this optic 308pirate. There’s no zero stop or revolution indicator. Other than that it’s great. Tracks true. Returns to zero. Decent glass. Useful reticle. Good eyebox. Daylight bright firedot.

    I should only need 3-4 data points to get out to 600yds. And I bet I can get there just with the reticle. And never have to dial.
     
    That’s the primary issue I have with this optic 308pirate. There’s no zero stop or revolution indicator.
    this may sound ghetto but i wonder if you can put something on the underside of the elevation turret cap/knob to mechanically stop the turret’s travel once you get to your zero. Like either layers of circular cut out index cards or a small washer or washer-style seal of some sort.

    If not, practice just holding over using the reticle to 500m-550m or so. This way you don’t have to touch the turrets.
     
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    this may sound ghetto but i wonder if you can put something on the underside of the elevation turret cap/knob to mechanically stop the turret’s travel once you get to your zero. Like either layers of circular cut out index cards or a small washer or washer-style seal of some sort.

    If not, practice just holding over using the reticle to 500m-550m or so. This way you don’t have to touch the turrets.
    I vaguely remember seeing that done on this scope years ago with some washers or shims. Spent a good while searching old threads for it. But couldn’t find it.
     
    I vaguely remember seeing that done on this scope years ago with some washers or shims. Spent a good while searching old threads for it. But couldn’t find it.
    I think there is a youtube video on it…ill search and if i locate, will post the link here. Others may know what im referring to as well.

    ETA:

    One of Larry’s videos.
     
    With magnified optics on a rifle, its more logical to have a POA/POI of 100y zero because after 100y it's only positive elevation changes form there (i.e. only coming "up" in elevation to correct for impacts beyond 100y). In other words, at 100y the bullet is at its highest point of travel above the bore axis where it intersects with the line of sight, and after 100y the bullet is losing altitude.
    How consistent is this across platforms/loads? Is this more or less a geometric fact, or is it a balance of pros and cons among zero distances?