A bit disappointed with the "standard" AR accuracy with "standard" ammo...

[Nomad0001]

Just bouncing this off you guys for debates sake…

Got a Bushmaster "target" model which is the "old fashioned" M16 looking one with the 20" heavy barrel 1/9 twist. Got some Federal M193 55 grain rounds. I'm a, say, B+ shot. Open sights.

The gun shoots "OK" as far as accuracy, say the size of a large apple groups @ 100 yards in "informal" bench conditions. I've dug around old posts, and it seems like thats about right (a bit tighter for some)

I got some 69 grain "match" ammo, and it did significantly better. I also know if you get a 1/7 twist 24" match barrel, with 77 grain rounds that you have to load one by one etc, that you can make them super accurate.

My question is… did anyone else have higher expectations (meaning tighter groups) with the standard M16 / standard ammo combination?

It is not lost on me, that these things were designed to hit a human sized target, and they certainly do that well. Just thought that if I were a soldier, where I couldn't get match ammo and match barrels, I would be a bit disillusioned with my weapons accuracy, even though it generally does a good job.

Comments anyone?

 

[smschulz]

My comment is "duh"?

Now you know why a lot of us reload.
Hint: it isn't always just to save money.

 

[Nomad0001]

My comment is "duh"?

Now you know why a lot of us reload.
Hint: it isn't always just to save money.

My feelings exactly. How do you carry all those reloading supplies into combat?

 

[flyguide]

The size of a large apple would be what like 3 1/2 to 4 inches? I'm an old high power service rifle shooter. Been doing this for a long time and just my opinion. 2 easy, inexpensive upgrades will help you wring out the most out your rifle. Change out the trigger with a Rock River NM 2 stage trigger to give you the confidence that your breaking the shot clean. The other is change out the front sight with a .070 width front sight. Aim small, group small. Shooting it off the bench with sandbags with no stress on the barrel like you would have if using a tight sling, bet you could improve the size do your Fed M193 groups to say the size of a golf ball. Only other significant upgrade to get it to shoot as good as it ever will would be a free float tube. But that's another chapter. Good shooting.

 

[BoilerUP]

My question is… did anyone else have higher expectations (meaning tighter groups) with the standard M16 / standard ammo combination?

No - not unless they had unrealistic expectations for a weapon system that has a 4MOA standard.

In addition to a better trigger, smaller front sight post, and perhaps shooting slung up while prone (I've never been able to shoot a standard AR off a bench worth a damn) a 5.56 Mk262-type load (Black Hills, SSA, Hornady TAP, etc.) would likely show you immediate improvement in accuracy over M193, along with 75/77gr 223 Hornady Match/TAP, Federal Gold Medal Match, Black Hills, etc.

Sterling Shooter may be along shortly to follow up on what flyguide posted...and probably debunk what I've posted

 

[<Flatliner>]

It is quite possible that that ammo just isn't hitting a sweet spot or (accuracy node) with your barrel. I've got two 6.8's and one shoots hornady 120sst's sub moa and the other like3 moa. Switch over to 115's and the groups on the second rifle close up to just under an inch. So it may be that the barrel is accurate, the gun just hates the ammo.

 

[Flyinghunter]

I would say you got your Bushmaster's monies worth if it goes bang every time and produces apple size groups. You may try different ammo/loads to find the sweet spot - but that's probably as good as it gets for that set up - and there is nothing wrong with that.

 

[smschulz]

My feelings exactly. How do you carry all those reloading supplies into combat?

I don't.
I create my loads before I go into combat.

 

[waveslayer]

My experience has been with RRA out of the box mine shot a MOA all day long with just off the shelf PMC and Federal ammo. I had a ACOG granted. But they guarantee 3/4 " at 100 yards now with some of their off the shelf rifles. I have seen 1500 dollar AR'S not even come close to the accuracy of any RRA I have. Especially for the money

 

[Smcarroll]

I expect my battle rifles to perform like a battle rifle. I shoot a fair amount of 5.56 and 7.62, with the scarcity of reloading components at certain times since 2008 I have started shooting quite a bit of steel cased through my ar's and m1a. If it ever comes down tp it, the man on the receiving end of your rifle isn't going to be more dead from a hand crafted bullet than he is one from a spam can.

 

[BravoSierra]

You've a 9 twist which generically is optimized for 62 grain loads. Try that first, in something more akin to match ammo and you should see improvement. 8 (7.7) twist is generally the right twist for 70-77 class bullets, so id steer clear there, but it wont hurt to try. Ive a 9 twist that loves 68 grain, but wont shoot bug holes with the m193. The single best investment you can make is a good trigger with an AR. Perhaps a free float tube next, and an adjustable gas plug as a tertiary improvement. Not much more to do to a AR otherwise.

 

[bustin]

You've a 9 twist which generically is optimized for 62 grain loads. Try that first, in something more akin to match ammo and you should see improvement. 8 (7.7) twist is generally the right twist for 70-77 class bullets, so id steer clear there, but it wont hurt to try. Ive a 9 twist that loves 68 grain, but wont shoot bug holes with the m193. The single best investment you can make is a good trigger with an AR. Perhaps a free float tube next, and an adjustable gas plug as a tertiary improvement. Not much more to do to a AR otherwise.

Any 55 or 62gr FMJ will shoot like crap. They are cheap bullets. Most good 8 twist barrels will shoot any weight bullet very well doesn't matter if its a 52gr SMK or a 77gr SMK.
Bullets that are a true .224 will shoot better. Bullets that have longer full diameter bodies will shoot better. Short bullets with big boat tails usually do not shoot as well as a 52 or 69 SMK with shorter boat tails.
Agree on the trigger and learning to use it with proper follow through.

 

[Pilky01]

It is quite possible that that ammo just isn't hitting a sweet spot or (accuracy node) with your barrel. I've got two 6.8's and one shoots hornady 120sst's sub moa and the other like3 moa. Switch over to 115's and the groups on the second rifle close up to just under an inch. So it may be that the barrel is accurate, the gun just hates the ammo.

I agree. There is no one ammo that works great in every gun. Try different bullet weights I think you may just get a pleasant surprise.

 

[smschulz]

Got a Bushmaster "target" model which is the "old fashioned" M16 looking one with the 20" heavy barrel 1/9 twist. Got some Federal M193 55 grain rounds.

If you have a 'target' model shouldn't you be using 'target' ammo if you expect to get 'target' (aka precision) results?

 

[mtrmn]

I work up my utility FMJ loads for my AR's by weighing my bullets and segregating them into groups. Each group contains bullets that weigh within .2 gr of each other. I use these for load development and have always managed to get at least MOA at 100 yds with the segregated bullets. Once I have developed my most accurate load for that particular bullet I then start cranking them out in volume (without further regard for bullet weight) and normally wind up with about 1.5 to 1.75 MOA ammo--MUCH better than any of the bulk FMJ ammo I've ever bought.

Better bullets will normally net me sub MOA results at 100 yds.

The message here is: I have found that ammo makes the biggest difference in AR accuracy, next is the horrible stock trigger that someone once described as "like dragging a cinder block over a busted concrete slab". I have never messed with an AR (regardless of brand, twist, etc) that wouldn't get respectable accuracy with ammo it likes, and a decent trigger will allow you to utilize that accuracy.

 

[bm11]

I haven't found a rifle yet that will turn 3 MOA ammo into 1 MOA ammo.

 

[Sterling Shooter]

Here's the only thing I know for sure, your mileage may vary. Most of my observations have been made while recording the hits of novice shooters using DPMS, Stag, Daniel Defense, Colt, and Windham Weaponry commercial equivalents of the military M4 and M16A2 and A4, shooting from a bone supported prone position at the MR-31 target. Shooting XM-193, hits inside 6 inches are expected from those having received initial basic marksmanship training, and, on occasion, a few hits sub MOA may be seen from shooters who can recognize a consistent sight picture from shot to shot with as issued irons. This sort of marksmanship could lead to an NRA Expert High Power Rifle rating with just a little more practice, shooting a commercial equivalent of the M16A2 or A4 with appropriate ammunition and the installation of a float tube. I do not see that trigger replacement is necessary. When properly addressed, the stock trigger can be easily controlled so as not to disturb aim; and, this trigger is better for applications associated with the concept other than match shooting.

 

[Jedi5150]

No - not unless they had unrealistic expectations for a weapon system that has a 4MOA standard.

Has 4 MOA always been the standard for AR's/ M16's? I always thought that the AK style weapons were supposed to shoot around 4 MOA and M16's were supposed to be about 1/2 that. I thought that was the whole "argument", that you could have a super reliable 4 MOA gun or a "finicky" AR with much better inherent accuracy.

 

[Sebben]

People forget that mil spec accuracy is 4 moa. My service M4 was a little under 1" at 25 meters for zeroing. A colt 6920 "M4" with drop in kac rail is no precision rifle. Its a combat carbine. That meets the military point target range requirements. It's minute of man effectiveness. Can the AR platform do better than mil spec? Yes it can but, that's not what a mil spec rifle is and that's why a mil spec rifle isn't $2000+.

Sent from my DROID RAZR HD using Tapatalk

 

[Sebben]

The army pays around $600 for M4s.

Sent from my DROID RAZR HD using Tapatalk

 

[JoshcBoucher]

Ditto., the ammo can dominate the guns potential . I got a Stag model 6 Varminter, which is a known shooter, for an out of the box gun. I Feed it PMC cheap ammo, and it shoots 2-3 in. groups. I've started testing hand loads, and some combinations are shooting into a penny. She's liking near max, or max loads, for each bullet weight. I'm having more "trouble" with my Rem. 700 bolt gun, than the Stag, which I find weird.

I haven't found a rifle yet that will turn 3 MOA ammo into 1 MOA ammo.

 

[JoshcBoucher]

Thanks for posting that, Waveslayer. I've been wanting another "accurate" AR. I have a Rock River Heavy barrel that I have not shot. Sits new, in the box. Just figured it would shoot OK, like most ARs, and it's lite for fun plinking someday. Maybe I'll try it out.

My experience has been with RRA out of the box mine shot a MOA all day long with just off the shelf PMC and Federal ammo. I had a ACOG granted. But they guarantee 3/4 " at 100 yards now with some of their off the shelf rifles. I have seen 1500 dollar AR'S not even come close to the accuracy of any RRA I have. Especially for the money

 

[N0mad]

Three examples of ammo in the same rifle same day shot within a few minutes of each other off the bench with a bipod @ 100 yards. The rifle has a BCM (Bravo Company) upper with a government profile 16" FN CHF chrome lined barrel, free float quad rail hand guard, Smith Vortex Flash Eliminator with a Nikon 3-9x40 optic mounted.

This is the only AR15 I own it's a fighting rifle not a precision rifle it just needs to be reliable and predictable. It's not a sub MOA rifle but I can make head shots all day with it @ 100 yards the type of ammo you use really makes a big difference.

62 grn HSM

55 grn Independence

77 grain Black Hills OTM

 

[jtake]

Just a little bit of comparison. Here is a link to someone who tested a variety of different ammo.

http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=272805

 

[terrible tim]

I had my first AR shooting some good groups, followed up with some lousy groups. Once in a while it would shoot OK, but I eventually sold it and found one from a local manufacturing company which was able to do better. Ended up with a "demo" weapon which was used & shoots very well, but it's what I wanted, an accurate rifle. If you're looking for accuracy, a budget AR may show up which shoots well, but you might decide to look for something a bit better. I've been told a chrome-lined barrel just isn't accurate, but mine is good, 1:8 twist, so I shoot 62 grain and heavier bullets. I'm pleased with 1 moa at 100 yards from an AR, so this works for me.

Figure you will spend about $1200-$1500 for a good shooter (off the shelf), but it's worth it to have better accuracy, at least to me it was. Noting worse than a rifle you don't trust to place a shot where you want it. I've shot bolt guns for too many years, to tolerate poor accuracy from any of my weapons. If they don't shoot, they're gone.

 

[mtrmn]

I had my first AR shooting some good groups, followed up with some lousy groups. Once in a while it would shoot OK, but I eventually sold it and found one from a local manufacturing company which was able to do better. Ended up with a "demo" weapon which was used & shoots very well, but it's what I wanted, an accurate rifle. If you're looking for accuracy, a budget AR may show up which shoots well, but you might decide to look for something a bit better. I've been told a chrome-lined barrel just isn't accurate, but mine is good, 1:8 twist, so I shoot 62 grain and heavier bullets. I'm pleased with 1 moa at 100 yards from an AR, so this works for me.

Figure you will spend about $1200-$1500 for a good shooter (off the shelf), but it's worth it to have better accuracy, at least to me it was. Noting worse than a rifle you don't trust to place a shot where you want it. I've shot bolt guns for too many years, to tolerate poor accuracy from any of my weapons. If they don't shoot, they're gone.

I really don't think there's very many people, MYSELF included, that can shoot the difference between chrome/non-chrome so I wouldn't sweat it at all. They would have a hard time proving to me that it wasn't something else in the equation, and your chrome lining would be worth more to me than a tiny improvement in accuracy. I don't have 2 barrels to compare that are otherwise identical so it's not apples/apples, but my chrome bbl doesn't shoot any worse than any of my non-chrome ones. YMMV

I built several kit guns from Blackthorne (oh the humanity!!!) (back in 2009 when they were the only people that could actually come up with parts) and was still able to wring MOA out of them by working up a reload they liked. So, at least in MY case, the cost of the gun didn't really hurt me any--but none of my several POS ARs are what you would call expensive so I don't really have anything to compare with. Like you, long as I'm happy with mine it don't really matter anyway. All I'm saying is with a little effort you can make just about ANY mechanically sound AR shoot pretty well-they just seem to be an accuracy-friendly design.

 

[smschulz]

Just a little bit of comparison. Here is a link to someone who tested a variety of different ammo.

http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=272805

Thanks, that was a very good comparison.
I was not surprised at all by the results.
I only wish they would have tested FGMM.
It only confirms I will never need to buy ammunition again when I can reload better than factory.
I love reloading for precision anyway.