Seriously.... I know they're capable, but I see the 15 platform as a battle rifle. Accuracy wise, what do you all expect? Should I be shooting for dime sized all the time? 100-150, that's no problem at all. Haven't taken this one to 4-500yds yet, but I'm thinking that's all one would really need from such a weapon. I cant ask if I'm wrong, because that's too open ended. Maybe instead; what is everyone reaching for? Achieved? I use my AR for steel and paper, but it would be the first I grabbed, well, if, you know.....
- Thread starter AMGtuned
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If I get a run of the mill M4 type carbine to shoot under 2 MOA with good ammo, I don't cry too much about it. If it shoots under 1.5 MOA with match ammo, I'm ecstatic. That is for 10 round groups.
I'm sure to be followed though by the legions of shooters chiming in to tell about thier "all day long" 1/2 MOA machines.
I'm sure to be followed though by the legions of shooters chiming in to tell about thier "all day long" 1/2 MOA machines.
You can definitely get sub-MOA groups out of an AR-15 rifle, but to achieve that, based on my experience, you need to get a well made match-grade barrel, a great aftermarket trigger group, great optics, and use high-quality match grade ammo, like Federal Gold Match with 77 gr. SMK bullets, etc. oh, and you have to your part as the shooter.
Regular ARs I do not stress over though. You can definitely achieve minute-of-man out to 500-600 yards.
Regular ARs I do not stress over though. You can definitely achieve minute-of-man out to 500-600 yards.
I figure most replies will/would be, "mine chews a single hole with a 30 round mag at 674yds" lol. I think were on the same page. I was thinking 1 moa was good, 1.5 is something I can deal with with for sure
Like this one?
Making an ar shoot is no different than making anything shoot. Put a good barrel and decent components on it and it will shoot.
"Minute of man", I like that. Exactly describes the hit zone accuracy I'd settle for, although I prefer a "vital zone" style target
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See the can of worms you opened?! 
There is much diversity in the AR platform, maybe more than any other. A JP Enterprise machine is an easy way to buy your way into accuracy. They will drive tacks alright, you just gotta pay 'em. Conversely, I've seen rifles with all supposedly match grade components, put together by a professional, that wouldn't shoot any better than a rack grade machine. Then you just gotta keep swapping around parts till you get a combination that works.
Occasionally, all the stars will align, and you get a budget rifle that shoots exceptionally well. Though it doesn't happen near as often as is commonly told.
There is much diversity in the AR platform, maybe more than any other. A JP Enterprise machine is an easy way to buy your way into accuracy. They will drive tacks alright, you just gotta pay 'em. Conversely, I've seen rifles with all supposedly match grade components, put together by a professional, that wouldn't shoot any better than a rack grade machine. Then you just gotta keep swapping around parts till you get a combination that works.
Occasionally, all the stars will align, and you get a budget rifle that shoots exceptionally well. Though it doesn't happen near as often as is commonly told.
See the can of worms you opened?!
There is much diversity in the AR platform, maybe more than any other. A JP Enterprise machine is an easy way to buy your way into accuracy. They will drive tacks alright, you just gotta pay 'em. Conversely, I've seen rifles with all supposedly match grade components, put together by a professional, that wouldn't shoot any better than a rack grade machine. Then you just gotta keep swapping around parts till you get a combination that works.
Occasionally, all the stars will align, and you get a budget rifle that shoots exceptionally well. Though it doesn't happen near as often as is commonly told.
Ehh. I can build a .5-.7 gun for $850. It’s not that hard. There is no black magic. I think the black magic is in the ammo and the technique it takes to shoot an AR really well consistently.
Run like butter when its cleaned and run well when I cant. Always get me one step farther than expected. LMAO
But in all seriousness, I myself base my expectations by the parts I use. Ive never bought a complete build. Example; BCG, barrel, trigger. The brand of these parts dictates the quality and expectations. All in all, My expectations are what the manufactures say plus an extra step.
But in all seriousness, I myself base my expectations by the parts I use. Ive never bought a complete build. Example; BCG, barrel, trigger. The brand of these parts dictates the quality and expectations. All in all, My expectations are what the manufactures say plus an extra step.
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What barrels and triggers are you using? That would be $500 or more right there would it not?
Agreed that AR rifles/gas guns are a whole different animal to shoot than a bolt gun. Got to keep fundamentals intact regardless
$99 rra 2 stage
$225 Larue will prob get you there (two have for me) or to be sure a criterion from craddock for $340. If you go that route you would really have to cheap out on stock, receivers, and handgaurd though!
Honestly I’ve never tried to build one as cheap as possible but there is no reason a cheaper stock, handgaurd, and receiver will make a difference as long as you don’t buy total junk. How about a challenge thread where a go fund me for $850 challenges me to build a .7 ar. I’m in.
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That RRA trigger puts you out of the "cool" club!
I'll start looking at those Larue barrels too.
My Timney 517 on my 300 Norma excludes me from the cool crowd in the bolt gun club too. Damnit! Must spend more on triggers! Lol.That RRA trigger puts you out of the "cool" club!
I'll start looking at those Larue barrels too.
Really though the way I see it I’m not paying more than twice as much for a trigger that is only 10% better. That’s a bad economics.
When it all boils down it I do suppose the barrel, bolt and trigger are probably priority in a sub moa AR.
Maybe a pink rubber bayonet for some guys at the range. Better yet a pink dildo for those knot heads. Lol.
Maybe a pink rubber bayonet for some guys at the range. Better yet a pink dildo for those knot heads. Lol.
Needs to be sub MOA for a precision rig, with no dramatic POI shift. Have a few Rainier and rock creek barrels that have performed great. Have a LaRue that will be going back to Texas. After a few rounds warming up, it’ll start to shift the poi 1.5-2” low. That doesn’t work for me. Hopefully it’s an isolated event. Best I’ve got for 5 shots with that barrel was .6moa. Each of the rainiers has posted at least a .25moa group during load development.
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I've had the opposite experience with Ranier. I had to send 2 of them back (both polygonal barrels). Neither one would shoot 69 gr SMK's less than 2 moa. I finally got a Rock Creek that stacks them in .75 moa. This is why the AR's can be so frustrating.
1) The person pulling the trigger (he has to know what he's doing, and you can't spend enough to overcome lack of basic shooting fundamentals).
2) Trigger for precision shooting.
3) Match grade ammo (77 gr SMKs are top of class in my book). Federal Gold Match has always done the trick for me.
4) Match grade barrel for the heavier bullets (I have had good success with White Oak Armory barrels, I get a 20" barrel with Wylde chamber).
5) Good glass, Vortex, etc. No need to over glass it, but don't get Walmart specials.
6) Well fitted rifle to the shooter, good stock system.
7) I'd recommend rifle length buffer system.
And you do not have to "break the bank" to get these components together.
But when people whine that their mil-spec AR is not driving tacks at 100 yards and beyond, I try to explain the mechanics involved in what makes for a "match grade" AR and the results.
I put a match grade barrel in my upper and bedded it with Jb weld. I hand-load and I'm happy if 10 shots are within 1.25" @100. 5 shot groups vary from .4-.8 MOA typically and that's good enough for me. I throw charges of CFE 223 with crimped 53gr Vmax's. Easy bulk ammo of decent quality.
Run of the mill barrels I've had decent luck getting 1.5-2 MOA results consistently.
Run of the mill barrels I've had decent luck getting 1.5-2 MOA results consistently.
BIG FACTS
Keystone accuracy can set you up with a Krieger barrel at a fair price.
Larue triggers go on sale for about that much every once in a while.That RRA trigger puts you out of the "cool" club!
I'll start looking at those Larue barrels too.
Chrome lined BBL in a quality build: 1.5MOA or better
SS Barrel in a quality build: 1 MOA or better
Assuming match ammo.
SS Barrel in a quality build: 1 MOA or better
Assuming match ammo.
They are always on sale fo that much now https://www.larue.com/products/larue-tactical-mbt-2s-trigger/
This is pretty normal, And she is still just collecting dust in the Safe. The complete build minus the scope and bipod was easily under $1,900.00
If you want one send me a PM.
Also holding SUB MOA out to 500 yards is and extremely realistic expectation, just buy a 20" Krieger barrel medium varmint Contour with a 1-7.7 twist that will favor the heavier 77gr Sierra matchking.
And yes, I did post the above just for you Skookum.. ?
I'm happy to get 1 MOA from my 18" SPR style build, shooting 77 grain. It's my primary precision rig.
Really though, the limitation with this platform is how light the bullet is. It's difficult to see steel strikes past 600 if it's a chewed up target, and wind starts to play an enormous role at about that range as well. The light weight and moving parts of the rifle make it a bigger challenge for the shooter.
Overall, the AR-15 makes a fine precision round from 0-700m, while providing lighter weight, good firepower, and plenty of mod options.
Really though, the limitation with this platform is how light the bullet is. It's difficult to see steel strikes past 600 if it's a chewed up target, and wind starts to play an enormous role at about that range as well. The light weight and moving parts of the rifle make it a bigger challenge for the shooter.
Overall, the AR-15 makes a fine precision round from 0-700m, while providing lighter weight, good firepower, and plenty of mod options.
Dang good target there. Did you adjust the scope after the .510 group or was that a change in POI from position?
Yes I started on the bottom left with the .510 group tried to hold for the next group on the bottom right, then adjusted 1/10 MIL UP which put me in the sweet spot for the rest of them.
Whenever I do a custom build, especially if it's going to a new home. I always conduct barrel break in and load development for one specific round of their choosing, accompanied by a Proof Target that I usually film or photograph myself shooting.
Providing these services negates the possibility of unhappy shooters, and if by some chance I am dealing with a special type of Retard, I just roll that beautiful Bean Footage and advise them next time to pick a bolt gun.
Providing these services negates the possibility of unhappy shooters, and if by some chance I am dealing with a special type of Retard, I just roll that beautiful Bean Footage and advise them next time to pick a bolt gun.
As far as accuracy is concerned I’m a happy camper if my off the rack AR gives me constant hits in the black at 400 yards. After that point there are much better options to punch holes in paper and there are far better options to make a clean kill past that point. But, there are for sure tac drivers that can really group well out past 400 too.
I don't know or care how my rifle "groups" at extended range. Wind becomes such a factor that it's really more a test of wind-calling ability.
@bigjake83 One of the men who taught me a lot about rifle shooting had a saying for frustrated shooters: "That rifle doesn't suck. You suck." Funny, but almost always the truth.
@bigjake83 One of the men who taught me a lot about rifle shooting had a saying for frustrated shooters: "That rifle doesn't suck. You suck." Funny, but almost always the truth.
2 Rock Rivers and 1 home build that are under comparable and under a minute on a bag, Service Rifle completion rifles. I have a carbine going back for a crooked barrel that shoots 4 inch off hand groups at 25 yards, underwhelming.
Wow, some really good targets - particularly multiple groups on a single piece of paper. I have a couple of AR's capable of 1 MOA and under at 100 yards. But I can't say that I can shoot multiple groups back to back under 1 MOA; and I suspect if I shot 5-10 consecutive groups they would probably be between 1.25 and 1.5, depending on the rifle. But some of that is me. Bolt guns are always easier.
What's more interesting is what kind of groups some of these tack drivers can produce at 400-600 yards. My guess is that holding 1 MOA at these distances becomes challenging in all but ideal conditions, simply because even a small gust of wind is going to be moving the bullet around. But I would love to see some people post 600 yard targets (which almost never seems to happen) just to see what kind of result they are getting. (Maybe I need to speak with some competition high power shooters who do shoot at these distances.) In any event, IMHO if you can consistently hit a 1'x2' steel plate at 600 yards, both you and the rifle are doing pretty well.
What's more interesting is what kind of groups some of these tack drivers can produce at 400-600 yards. My guess is that holding 1 MOA at these distances becomes challenging in all but ideal conditions, simply because even a small gust of wind is going to be moving the bullet around. But I would love to see some people post 600 yard targets (which almost never seems to happen) just to see what kind of result they are getting. (Maybe I need to speak with some competition high power shooters who do shoot at these distances.) In any event, IMHO if you can consistently hit a 1'x2' steel plate at 600 yards, both you and the rifle are doing pretty well.
1'x2' at 600 is going to be pretty easy with a magnified optic. As long as the wind isnt going crazy. I can shoot golf balls at 400 fairly easily if that says anything.
My brother in law suggested that we combine our pastimes. Him with his wedge clubs and some bright colored golf balls, and me with a rifle. He gets to practice chip shots, and I get to play a modified form of skeet shooting....... I'm not sure how it would go, but it sure sounds like fun...
A match trigger is nice, it makes things easier but if you do a decent 15 minute trigger job and you are a good trigger puller, there is no reason why an LPK trigger will keep you from shooting 1MOA or less (if the rifle is up to it).
I still spend some money on cheapo triggers like the Larue MBT (I like it quite a bit) and the Rise RA140 (a pretty nice single stage and dirt cheap) but I think it's funny listening to all of the Giselle fan boys who think you need a $200 trigger to hit the side of a barn.
As far as getting to MOA, if your barrel can be described as hammer forged or chrome lined, you will probably have a hard time.
The trick is finding a barrel made with a decent blank, a good chambering job, a good chamber, a good crown and having a consistent connection between the barrel and the upper receiver/Picatinny rail.
It's not necessarily expensive but usually not too cheap. Occasionally a relatively pedestrian factory built rifle will have a reputation of shooting sub MOA. The Remington R15 Hunter (I think) had a bit of reputation like that so when JSE had takeoff barrels for $75 I bought one. I'm going to have some fun seeing if I can get it to shoot on a tight budget, probably around $350 for the upper with BCG and a lower with a 15 minute trigger job on an LPK trigger (not built specifically for budget but with a budget trigger when I'm testing it).
I'll be a little disappointed if I can't break 1 MOA but either way it will be fun.
I still spend some money on cheapo triggers like the Larue MBT (I like it quite a bit) and the Rise RA140 (a pretty nice single stage and dirt cheap) but I think it's funny listening to all of the Giselle fan boys who think you need a $200 trigger to hit the side of a barn.
As far as getting to MOA, if your barrel can be described as hammer forged or chrome lined, you will probably have a hard time.
The trick is finding a barrel made with a decent blank, a good chambering job, a good chamber, a good crown and having a consistent connection between the barrel and the upper receiver/Picatinny rail.
It's not necessarily expensive but usually not too cheap. Occasionally a relatively pedestrian factory built rifle will have a reputation of shooting sub MOA. The Remington R15 Hunter (I think) had a bit of reputation like that so when JSE had takeoff barrels for $75 I bought one. I'm going to have some fun seeing if I can get it to shoot on a tight budget, probably around $350 for the upper with BCG and a lower with a 15 minute trigger job on an LPK trigger (not built specifically for budget but with a budget trigger when I'm testing it).
I'll be a little disappointed if I can't break 1 MOA but either way it will be fun.
It's a thing here on the Hide. a man who I would consider to be Snipers Vide VIP, Username Elfster. He created the 100 Yard 5shot challenge, and here on the Hide it's pretty much the gold standard. It's also a good way to weed out Liars.
Maybe if it were my other, brother in law..... well, if I was the one scoring also
Yes, I'm aware of the 5 group challenge and I agree that it helps to separate out the shooters from the bull sh**ters. I have no doubt if I shot 20 5 shot groups with one of my AR's a couple would be sub MOA, but that doesn't mean that either me or the rifle are sub MOA shooters. Now if I switched to my bolt action rifle I could do pretty well on the 5 x5 Elfstar challenge, but that's a whole other animal and not much of an accomplishment.
And hitting golf balls at 400 - again that's damn good shooting, not sure I could do that with any consistency using my bolt gun.
And to get back to the original question - although it's great to be able to hit golf balls at 400, for my purposes, being able to hit a 1x2 steel plate at 600 is all I need. That's basically the size of a male torso. If I'm going out beyond 600 I'll use my SIG SSG3000. Don't really see the need to be able to put a lot of rounds downrange quickly at those distances.
And hitting golf balls at 400 - again that's damn good shooting, not sure I could do that with any consistency using my bolt gun.
And to get back to the original question - although it's great to be able to hit golf balls at 400, for my purposes, being able to hit a 1x2 steel plate at 600 is all I need. That's basically the size of a male torso. If I'm going out beyond 600 I'll use my SIG SSG3000. Don't really see the need to be able to put a lot of rounds downrange quickly at those distances.
For sure all you need is man sized targets if you are fighting an enemy that likes to stand in the open facing you. "Minute of man" as people like to say. But let's be honest with ourselves. Unless we are deploying for war there is a 99.9% chance none of us will ever put an actual person in the cross hairs of our scope, thank God. And if we did, it is unlikely that the enemy will stand with their torso facing us and wait for us to hold over and take a shot. The first one might but after that they will scatter and hide and your aiming points will become very small.
For me guns are more of a fun thing to build and shoot, the more accurate they are the more fun and interesting they are. And bonus, coming from being able to hit golf balls at 400 yards with an AR, if zombies did decided to try to take over they would be in a world of hurt long before they got anywhere near my house. While zombies are about 1'x2' a lot of zombies may know that it is best to hide behind things and be coy. So you may only have a softball/golf ball sized window to hit the bastards. Start with the ones at a mile with the Norma, and then clean up the ones that got through to 400 with the AR, then let a few get past that on purpose for some carbine and handgun fun.
I'd be proud to consistently hit golf balls with my AR-15 build at 400. Sounds like a new challenge.
Then again, I do confirm zero by shooting through a 1/4" square hole on steel plate at 100m.
Then again, I do confirm zero by shooting through a 1/4" square hole on steel plate at 100m.
Where can I find the 5 group challenge?
jpgolffl - I agree with you. Never had to put my crosshairs on a person, and hopefully never will. Really more of a way to describe what I consider to be acceptable accuracy in an AR15, given the limitations of the platform (small, light bullet), my own limitations as a shooter, and how I have my rifles set up. Although I have a number of AR's none are really set up for precision shooting at 600 yards and beyond. Closest thing I have to that is a RRA upper with a heavy stainless barrel (18" I think) and a moderately priced scope that maxes out at 12X. My other AR's have shorter barrels (one an SBR) and either a 1x4 or a red dot style optic, so I'm not going to be shooting a lot of golfballs at 400 yards. And until recently, my main range/gun club only had a 100 yard range (except twice a month when we did "long distance" shooting at 300 yards). I'm now in NY, and have access to a 1000 yard range, but AR's are all in storage thanks to the ridiculous laws of this state.
And until recently, my main range/gun club only had a 100 yard range (except twice a month when we did "long distance" shooting at 300 yards). I'm now in NY, and have access to a 1000 yard range, but AR's are all in storage thanks to the ridiculous laws of this state. Holy crap what the hell do they want ou to do with them? You can’t take them home? Damn commies.jpgolffl - I agree with you. Never had to put my crosshairs on a person, and hopefully never will. Really more of a way to describe what I consider to be acceptable accuracy in an AR15, given the limitations of the platform (small, light bullet), my own limitations as a shooter, and how I have my rifles set up. Although I have a number of AR's none are really set up for precision shooting at 600 yards and beyond. Closest thing I have to that is a RRA upper with a heavy stainless barrel (18" I think) and a moderately priced scope that maxes out at 12X. My other AR's have shorter barrels (one an SBR) and either a 1x4 or a red dot style optic, so I'm not going to be shooting a lot of golfballs at 400 yards.
Don't worry, I'll let you borrow my micrometer as long as you clean it with acetone after you're done.This is turning into a good old fashioned dick measuring contest. Trust me, you will all lose.
