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The airing of grievances and the response.

Mormegil87

Mormegil87

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Minuteman
    • Oct 21, 2013
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    The Frozen Tundra
    I listened to both podcasts today and Mike and Adam hit the nail on the head.

    We as shooters are not entitled to anything other than going home from the match in one piece. Our match fee purchases us the opportunity to shoot and the experience of shooting a match. Nothing more and nothing less.

    Whether a shooter finishes first, last or anywhere in between, grants them NO right to tell a sponsor or a MD how to or to whom, they distribute prizes or prize money.
     
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    RoterJager said:
    It really is. We're lucky to participate in what we do much less walk away with anything for our efforts.
    Click to expand...
    I basically view this pursuit of long range not as a hobby, or sport, but as a martial art.

    It isn't for personal fame or glory, and the purpose of competition is to validate techniques and training and provide incentive for continuing developement. Any recognition or respect within the community should come from personal mastery, and the number of years you've been an active contributing member giving back to that community.

    But I'm an old school fool, my opinion means nothing.
     
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    I'm looking forward to getting my ass handed to me in my first match because I know I'll learn something. I'm paying to surround myself with skilled shooters and high end equipment. No matter what, I'm going to gain experience I could not gain otherwise. Prize table? What prize table?
     
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    I get guys are playing within the rules, but the rules have not been right for more than 4 years as the series were never set up to succeed.

    No match I know advertised first place is guaranteed a specific or the most expensive prizes. There may be a "Top Gun" or several other items of considerable value but rarely are guaranteed to take something home.

    In my opinion, it's the laziness of the series at fault there, as they never adapted to the growth and they were never designed to properly expand. Instead, it's about the cliques and how each individual group controls a small part of the bigger universe and manipulates that part to suit their own needs. When you have people with a vested interest in the competition making the rules, the competition will suffer.

    They used to quote NASCAR constantly when talking about the PRS but they don't have the first clue how NASCAR actually operates. Instead they just talk about the Monster Energy Series of Shooting, however, it's a self-made label created by the people shooting it, who also happen to run the series. How you can be a governing body with the body that is governing being competitors?
     
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    Lowlight said:
    I get guys are playing within the rules, but the rules have not been right for more than 4 years as the series were never set up to succeed.

    No match I know advertised first place is guaranteed a specific or the most expensive prizes. There may be a "Top Gun" or several other items of considerable value but rarely are guaranteed to take something home.

    In my opinion, it's the laziness of the series at fault there, as they never adapted to the growth and they were never designed to properly expand. Instead, it's about the cliques and how each individual group controls a small part of the bigger universe and manipulates that part to suit their own needs. When you have people with a vested interest in the competition making the rules, the competition will suffer.

    They used to quote NASCAR constantly when talking about the PRS but they don't have the first clue how NASCAR actually operates. Instead they just talk about the Monster Energy Series of Shooting, however, it's a self-made label created by the people shooting it, who also happen to run the series. How you can be a governing body with the body that is governing being competitors?
    Click to expand...
    Frank,
    You guys were talking about classifications and divisions in the podcast. My question is why can't the prs come up with a classification like uspsa does to even out the competition? To me, that just a logical thing to do to make things fair. I know I would never pay an expensive match fee if going to get shit stomped by professional shooters. Level out the playing field and let me compete against people in my class then I'd be all over it, especially if I know I could win some cool prizes. For instance, I shot a level 2 uspsa match a few months ago, the way they set it up was anyone could win money if you shot well within your classification, and on top of that, there was a random drawing for prizes.
     
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    Because the Inmates Run the Asylum and the rockstars of the sport are also in on the rules and how they are applied and set up.

    Classifications would be better, but harder to set up and everyone wants the glory without any effort because they have no reason to change. It was never set up to succeed it was set up to create a layer between the shooter and match director so "They can make money too" ... granted that money making has fallen flat. They screwed it up from the beginning and have never tried to actually fix it.
     
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    Hippy_Steve said:
    I'm looking forward to getting my ass handed to me in my first match because I know I'll learn something. I'm paying to surround myself with skilled shooters and high end equipment. No matter what, I'm going to gain experience I could not gain otherwise. Prize table? What prize table?
    Click to expand...

    I attend a local "match" that doesn't have a prize table, for just this reason. From what I've observed the skilled shooters will fall over themselves to help when they realize your receptive. From setting up my kestrel, to calling corrections on the line when I miss. I find my own training helpful to get me comfortable with the system and the tactics of it all but the training you get out of the competition is so worth the entry fee!!!
     
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    @Lowlight Maybe I'm incorrectly reading into what you guys are trying to say in this episode. Guys just need to be happy and grateful that they're are getting anything at all. Sponsors don't have to give anything at all and we as competitors need to realize that and be thankful that they are giving something.
     
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    @RoterJager

    It's not quite that simple, but close. MHSA gives a ton, in response to the fact they Raffled 2 High-End Products they were dragged through the mud a bit by a Top 2 competitor who has complained about finishing high but seeing these high dollar prizes going to the bottom of the field shooters. In other words, they see the "Sharing of the wealth" as a participation trophy and believe all prizes should be front-loaded based on finish and not given away to others who have not put in the same amount of effort of them.

    From MHSA standpoint, they see no Return on Investment with these shooters as they immediately sell the prizes to fund their matches. They believe the selling of the prizes devalues the donation and gives them no return on investment in the match.

    Compounded, which Mike did not mention in this podcast but has mentioned in the past, it's quite common for MHSA to receive calls on Monday after a Match where they donated a prize to, and the winner is asking to "return" the prize for the cash value, because it's easy to return it, vs trying to selling it on their own, so they attempt this tactic and it's quite common.

    The fact they were called out for raffling a Rifle vs awarding it to a top finisher is really the debate.

    Guys routinely say it's anywhere from $25k to $40k to shoot a season of matches and they get very little in return. My point is, it was never designed to pay for a season of shooting. When we had 4 matches a year guys could plan out two, spend a fair amount of money but get that back in some fashion. Today to shoot for the Finale it requires a lot more effort and they feel this is a Sport vs a Hobby and they want to be paid.

    I have asked many times to these shooters, where is their sports agent, obviously, none have it.

    The part that bothered many was, 1. in the podcast griping about MHSA, they barely if at all mentioned their sponsors who barely support them. 2. The MD, by acting as if they made too much money per match and need to spread the wealth to the shooters, and 3 It's all about finishing order and the Top 10, failing to recognize the other 90 shooters pay the bills.

    The word used was "weird", it was weird a 50th place shooter can win a top prize, this was called a participation trophy, as well it was "weird" that Military and LE shooters who are paid to shoot receive recognition for their 50th place standing as well. You have to actually listen to both podcasts, the Kifaru one and this one.
     
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    Lowlight said:
    @RoterJager

    Compounded, which Mike did not mention in this podcast but has mentioned in the past, it's quite common for MHSA to receive called on Monday after a Match where they donated a prize to, and the winner is asking to "return" the prize for the cash value, because it's easy to return it, vs trying to selling it on their own, so they attempt this tactic and it's quite common.
    Click to expand...

    this bothers me...people never surprise me tho i guess with some of the things theyll do lol

    selling is one thing, whatever, but callin and asking for cash/return on a donated prize, seems nuts
     
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    @Lowlight I guess I'm looking at it as a Sponsor or MD (if the Sponsor doesn't specify) can divide up the prizes however they see fit. It's their money/investment on the line.

    If a guy is looking at this as a sport that he/she should be getting paid for, theyre being dilusional.

    These guys conveniently ignore the fact that if the bottom 90% of shooters are the ones that bring in the money and sponsors. If they stop participating, the series dies. If the top 10% stop showing up, there will be someone to take their place.

    Now, that's not to say that the top guys shouldn't be rewarded. That's what trophies and the series cash payout is for. But no where does it say in the rules that 1st place gets the best prize, 2nd place gets the next most valuable and so on. This mentality is totally their own manifestation.
     
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    In terms of the Cash Payout, the PRS stopped this practice, there is no cash payout and the $500 the NRL pays does not cover their expenses, which we get. The Series are such they can really only be looked at in Name only. They provide very little.

    The obvious question is,

    If you are paying a Series to be a Member, beyond seeing your score on their website, what do you really get? They do not fund the matches or the Series, they only fund the website and record your scores. There is no reason to pay if you can shoot the match without the membership.

    By adding in every Match with more than 50 shooters (whatever the actual number is) and slapping their name on it, they diluted the playing field and increased competition for prizes without any idea how to scale the competition to fit the growth. In my honest opinion, all they did was get bigger and made nothing better. They use the same model we used 15 years ago, not good when you consider the changes that have taken place.
     
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    Lowlight said:
    Which two clowns ?

    I don't think we need to call anyone a "Clown" over this but there is a difference in opinion here
    Click to expand...
    Difference in opinion for sure. The comment about high Mil/Leo usually being 50th place is shitty to me.
     
    IMO this is not about shooters vs sponsors or the fact that there are prizes to be won. It's not really about sponsors at all. This is about top shooters vs match directors.

    Top shooters come in with a general expectation of "This is how the system should work" (or has worked at prior matches) and sees the prize table and thinks "That's the prize I might win if I pull a good finish".

    Match director has huge discretion with a big chunk of prize dollars, and is in a spot where they can play the role of "generous good guy" by handing out big prizes to new shooters, or elevating the smaller classifications like Tac/Lady/Jr/LE. Match director has the interests of looking good in front of the community, perhaps there's an undertone of "I've seen those guys win a bunch of prizes already, I want to see someone else get something", and perhaps a bit of wanting to make the match prizes a more realistic/exciting possibility to the average competitors to drive up future attendance at their matches, Some of that is more self serving than the altruistic "grow the industry/promote the sponsors" reason that's been given.

    Solution is pretty simple... manage expectations. Let everyone know up front what the prize table order is going to be, keep it consistent, and try to keep it similar to what's going on across the country with all the other matches. If a sponsor wants to designate a prize to XYZ category of shooter, great. Make a special announcement, give publicity and thanks to the sponsor and hand out the prize. No one is bothered by that. You want to make your match a "raffle" match with random draw for prizes? No problem, just let everyone know.

    Almost all of the issues and complaints I've heard about have come when the MD unilaterally does something last minute and unexpected that could be perceived as unfair from the shooters who were there to win.
     
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    Still no need to name call, we agree there was some bad things said, but look at it this way

    Sort of validates what I have been saying for a long time, and giving these guys a voice only reinforces what I have been saying. It shows what they say when nobody looking is far different than the act displayed at matches.

    For a long time now I have stated that private conversations to me have demonstrated this mindset. Instead most defend them because their public personality is different from their actual views on the subject. The original podcast demonstrated this in stereo.

    Giving someone who they really don't respect a rear bag to use, or a piece of off the cuff advice at a matches does not show the complete picture.

    To me the bigger take away was the fact they will criticize a sponsor but not the series and will go out there way to side step the most basic problems. In fact the Kifaru Podcast was posted with a title of "great Job" or something to that effect, the cheerleadering and back slapping of this type of attitude

    The MD Is not to blame, the expectation is an unrealistic one, nothing is said about the prize tables, the expectation is the same at all these matches. The most prizes a match has, the more often those prizes are shared across the board. It's a carrot, and always has been one, since the first day.

    Hell I awarded .22 trainer rifles to last place for a shooter who shot every stage. No MD I know announces the prize order ahead of time. Since when was this a thing.

    MD have a lot of a work to do, on top of following the Series Rules that govern them, they all have to work 24/7 leading up a match to get ready. Then when it's all over and they are near the finish line you want to them award the best prizes to the Top 10 and tell everyone in the bottom half to go home, you lost.

    The SERIES is the problem, not the match director. The MD is just repeating what others matches have done before them. Again, the series failing to scale to fit the growth of the sport.

    Plus a Sponsor will often say, like MHSA did, it was their choice, to award a "deserving shooter" a shooter who might have drive vs Means because as noted a shooter like Vibbert has won more than 1 AT Rifle from MHSA and sold them. So why, when giving another AT to match award the same thing to the same guys a 3rd and 4th time knowing they are just gonna dump it on Monday for a loss.

    I was criticized by the PRS guys for awarding the High 308 back in 2014 a 6.5CM rifle. Collin F won it, he was shooting a Savage 308. I had SEVEN (7) rifles to give away. First year a Top Woman Shooter got a rifle, anyway, to this day Collin attends just about every match out west here, with that 6.5CM. He ROs a bunch, Shoots, NRL, PRS, and CD.... he is a perfect example of the system working.

    Blaming the MD is a favorite tune, but the MD is under the Series. If the series pulls back, but at the same time has their hand out, who's fault is it.

    A MD in an overstaturated field has a few choices:

    1. Put on the best show he can so he fills the match, if you are new with no track record it's tough, which is why matches don't fill.
    2. Make the top guys happy by catering to that Top 1%
    3. Make the field happier and spread the generosity offering up the bottom 90% a few carrots, which is what most do, the bottom 90% pays the bills

    We never put you are guaranteed to take home something unless we know ahead of time something is set aside for that, like a Top Gun,

    The missing piece is, while the NF and AT were raffled the Number two shooter still got a $2400 Scope at the MHSA Match.

    When Jacob let the ROs walk up after the Top 10 hit the table, the 51st place shooter still took home a full suppressor cert worth over $1000. With a $200k prize table like Rifles Only had, the complaints about letting the ROs go up at the last minute are hollow. When I was down there, last place without winning any door prize still received a $1000 in product. Today that is not possible so you have two choices,

    Front load or spread the wealth to all who make the match.

    Without the bottom half the front half has no match. A match with 25 PROS has no interest to anyone, especially sponsors. If you call up a sponsor and say I am hosting a match with 25 of the best shooters in the world, see what the response would be ? Without something else to spread the word you'd get crickets.
     
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    Lowlight said:
    Front load or spread the wealth to all who make the match.
    Click to expand...

    I've got no issue with spreading the wealth.

    Put a label on one of the big prizes "Top Sportsman" and let the MD choose who it goes to.
    Put a whole table full of prizes and call them "Bottom Half Finisher Raffle Prizes". Everyone who did poorly gets a chance.
    Pre-select some nice prizes that are value/category appropriate for the Tac/LE/Jr/Lady categories.

    But what a MD should NOT do is screw up the process of how the finishing order prizes are done (for whatever is left after you've spread the wealth). Because then you're not only messing with prizes, you're messing with a bunch of dude's perception of fairness and the idea of winning.

    I'll go so far as to say that the bigger driver of this isn't about money. Everyone who's at the upper level of this sport has enough money already, this is not a pauper's game. What this sport is is a collection of type A, hyper competitive dudes who want to WIN. And when the 35th place top Mil/LE shooter gets called up to the prize table before the 4th place shooter, that 4th place shooter just feels like he got beat. That's where a big chunk of the resentment comes from.
     
    Fairness does not exist

    Without classifications there is no "Fair" when it comes to finishes and prizes ...

    Resentment is an interesting word, and correct. Why is anyone bothered by under-funded, under-Training LE/ MIL shooter who has 10 other things to worry about, scoring a prize, in most cases it's just a trophy. If you feel slighted you are the problem, Type A or otherwise. Thought we were supposed to be Pro LE/MIL ?

    When the Series did a Bait and Switch and dropped the prize money were was the revolt or the outcry, you pay them, they advertise as being the Top Series in the country yet do absolutely NOTHING but put their name on other people's work. There is no standard, there is model, it's the same model we used at Rifles Only 15 years ago and never changed.

    Why has it not changed, because you are being SCAMMED.

    Do they support the new match director, do they send a team over to help run things. Maybe if you are chosen friend, otherwise they just want the numbers to say, look at us. They don't advertise, they don't support, they barely get out of their own way. But sit back and let hard working MDs take the heat. Some MD lose money putting on matches, and still have to pay the series to email a score sheet.

    The guarantee is the Trophy, If you want a guaranteed prize, come in the Top 3. That is all I have ever seen mentioned, Trophies awarded to:

    This will never be fair, it wasn't designed to be fair.
     
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    Sheldon N said:
    I'll go so far as to say that the bigger driver of this isn't about money........ And when the 35th place top Mil/LE shooter gets called up to the prize table before the 4th place shooter, that 4th place shooter just feels like he got beat. That's where a big chunk of the resentment comes from.
    Click to expand...

    That could easily be taken as a total contradiction in your two statements. The top shooter didn't get his score changed did he? He still won.....so, it really can only be about one of two remaining aspects.....either it really IS about the money, or it is about the glory of public recognition they are missing.

    It really sucks to be that greedy, or to have such a fragile ego that you can't stand not having the type and amount of public recognition you think you deserve.
     
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    Skookum said:
    It really sucks to be that greedy, or to have such a fragile ego that you can't stand not having the type and amount of public recognition you think you deserve.
    Click to expand...

    I'll just say that a lot of the dudes who get vilified as the "greedy pros" are actually really good guys. You would like them if you met them, and you probably wouldn't say that to their face.

    And my comments about this being wrapped up in type A dudes and a desire to win.... that comes from self reflection and insight on my own motivations for what I do and why. Why have I spent a crap ton of money and a huge amount of time training my ass off to get better over the last few years? Is it for greed? Is it for some sort of public affirmation? I don't think I've gotten much on either of those fronts. Doesn't mean I don't still want to win or that I'm going to stop chasing it.
     
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    Skookum said:
    That could easily be taken as a total contradiction in your two statements. The top shooter didn't get his score changed did he? He still won.....so, it really can only be about one of two remaining aspects.....either it really IS about the money, or it is about the glory of public recognition they are missing.

    It really sucks to be that greedy, or to have such a fragile ego that you can't stand not having the type and amount of public recognition you think you deserve.
    Click to expand...

    look at it from another side...ive seen the look on a shooters face who wasnt a "pro", who worked his ass off, and finally placed in the top of a match after a couple years of trying...was pumped to finally get an early walk of a prize table after he'd earned it...then basically had all of the good stuff he had an eye on given out before he got anything

    he USED to be on the "who cares about prizes" side...until he ended up on the other side of it...he didnt make a big deal about it, but he mentioned it to me, and how much of a let down it was after all the hard work he put in
     
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    More Matches = Less Prizes

    More Shooters vying for Sponsorships means Less Sponsorships to go around

    If there is no standard, meaning Match A awards the Top 5 and Match B awards the Top 3, that means someone is going to be disappointed. Prizes tables are no longer going to be unlimited, if you work your ass off and come in 11th out of 125 shooters, you might be disappointed. If you work hard and come in 4th while attending a match giving out trophies to the Top 3 you'll be disappointed.

    When you wade into a crowded pond you have to expect to find less fish.

    No standard while pretending to be part of a standardized series will not work. It's not gonna be Fair. While there maybe 50 PRS matches in a year, they are all unique in their execution. The only thing we see across the board happening is contrived and often repeated stages which have been gamed to death and provide very little challenge for anyone other than first time shooters.
     
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    Sheldon N said:
    I'll just say that a lot of the dudes who get vilified as the "greedy pros" are actually really good guys. You would like them if you met them, and you probably wouldn't say that to their face.

    And my comments about this being wrapped up in type A dudes and a desire to win.... that comes from self reflection and insight on my own motivations for what I do and why. Why have I spent a crap ton of money and a huge amount of time training my ass off to get better over the last few years? Is it for greed? Is it for some sort of public affirmation? I don't think I've gotten much on either of those fronts. Doesn't mean I don't still want to win or that I'm going to stop chasing it.
    Click to expand...
    The thrust of my statement was to point out a seeming contradiction in your argument. I perhaps took it a thought too far. I apologize.

    As far as saying what I think out loud, regardless of the immediate audience....past personal history has proven that I will.
     
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    I've got a couple buddies that are Mil/LE and are VERY solid shooters, to the point of being in the hunt for the prize table in the open division.

    At matches where they get called up early to the prize table for top Mil/LE, I've seen my buddy say "No thanks, I'll walk where I finished". They get it. It's not about the prizes, or how much they are worth, or whether there are enough prizes.
     
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    morganlamprecht said:
    look at it from another side...ive seen the look on a shooters face who wasnt a "pro", who worked his ass off, and finally placed in the top of a match after a couple years of trying...was pumped to finally get an early walk of a prize table after he'd earned it...then basically had all of the good stuff he had an eye on given out before he got anything

    he USED to be on the "who cares about prizes" side...until he ended up on the other side of it...he didnt make a big deal about it, but he mentioned it to me, and how much of a let down it was after all the hard work he put in
    Click to expand...
    I think the solution is clear... go with lavish trophies (as in brass cups mounted on marble bases or some similar shit) for the winners and hand out swag and gift certificates to everyone. I think Frank has mentioned that a time or two. Just take the money out of it altogether. Instant douche bag repellent.

    Only those there for the love of shooting will remain.
     
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    So eliminate the LE/MIL division because the majority of them don't shoot well enough to place, so awarding them is silly ... makes things easier for sure. I turn down prizes too, mainly because I rarely pay entry fees, but I have not taken something from a prize table in probably 6 yrs. Where is my pat on the back. (One of the reason I don't go to win, I go to socialize and enjoy, I know I will never take the prize)

    Again we are back to front loading something that has no standard, to the same people over and over. that is what the SERIES is for, to develop a reward structure and manage it for every match in their series. If you want to reward success, and exploit the same, it's your job to do so. Give out cash and let the prizes work as a raffle. Then you can standardize it to say, every PRS Match the Top 3 will get 1500, 1000, 500 in cash, problem solved.

    Think about the sponsors, if the same Top 10 shooters, which lets be honest, it's really just trading off between the same 15 guys in any one season, what benefit do these donations hold for the sponsor ? zero.

    If MHSA says they are giving away 4 rifles in a year and it goes to the same 2 people each time, what is in it for them? Only to find each one of those rifles for sale the next day at a loss .... how does that support the "sport" LOL The winner of the AT in a front loaded match is not gonna show up to the next one and RUN that AT. They are better off not giving a prize and finding 4 new people who have means and drive who will practice and give them the rifle up front. Eliminating their donations to these matches. Every sponsor is better off using the same money for a team vs donating to a different sponsors' travel fund. The AI Rifle is supporting a Curtis Action Team, nothing to help MHSA or AI. they just paid for the their competitors increase in market share, shrewd.

    As it is, Sponsors are not requiring anything, all they get is a single picture of the shooter and the box, or item. So a $4k prize donation the ROI is a single image of the winner who knows, it's going for sale tomorrow helping their competition increase their visibility.

    The Top 5 at any of these matches barely changes, if the prize tables are front loaded to these 5 what are the odds they will move on or get unseated in any given season? What is the incentive, work harder, spend more money and create a cycle of debt just to hopefully make a tiny percentage of that effort back. These matches are Identical to each other, the look, the COF, the shooters, nothing has changed.

    What you get is guys who camp out a place like K&M where they practice and practice the same damn thing because nothing changes, and they become bigger fish in a small pond. It's now a location bias too, it becomes a more expensive gear race, it's location dependent, the guys with better access to matches will easily do better because they can drive to these places. It's a self defeating cycle of BS, anyone on the fringes will be easily disenfranchised.

    Can someone honest tell me what has changed since 2012 when the PRS started. Beside more matches, what has truly gotten better? We are watered down, petty bickering with or without my help, cheating taken to new levels, gaming the MDs vs competing against each other. It's not better, just bigger. Skill stage, lame and contrived, unchanged in ages with really no practical value, kneeing standing standing kneeling wow. Buy the right bag, shoot the smallest caliber possible with your 20LBS rifle, cleaned stage, only variation adding in a tripod.

    I like the idea of,

    Want to be a pro, cool, Match fee $300, Pro Fee $1500 on top of the $300, chance to win the pool divided into the Top 3 ... pay to play. You get a trophy and cash for the podium finishes, nothing else beyond the raffles. How many pros who do it for the love and not the money will pay up to guarantee the reward equals the effort. The more who think they can place the more money they get. Like Adam said in the Podcast, the entry fee for him being a Top 5 Shotgun shooter was $4000 to enter.
     
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    Not to deviate from the primary discussion but one of the things that was touched upon during this podcast was a reticle based eyepiece for a Kowa spotter...I think it was during this podcast.

    Can anyone shed some light on this subject?
     
    Nik H said:
    Not to deviate from the primary discussion but one of the things that was touched upon during this podcast was a reticle based eyepiece for a Kowa spotter...I think it was during this podcast.

    Can anyone shed some light on this subject?
    Click to expand...
    The issue is that Kowa refuses to make one thus far, and no domestic company has wanted to make an aftermarket one. Kowa has been petitioned repeatedly to do so in the past, and has promised one...but never has come through as far as I know. Same story with Swarovski. Bird watching I guess is a big emough market that they can afford to ignore the shooting community.

    Optolyth is an absolutely solid spotter that gets very little attention in the US, but they make a fixed 30x reticle for the TBG65 and TBG80, it is the same one made for the german military forces, AND you can get it shipped to the US.
     
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    Skookum said:
    The issue is that Kowa refuses to make one thus far, and no domestic company has wanted to make an aftermarket one. Kowa has been petitioned repeatedly to do so in the past, and has promised one...but never has come through as far as I know. Same story with Swarovski. Bird watching I guess is a big emough market that they can afford to ignore the shooting community.

    Optolyth is an absolutely solid spotter that gets very little attention in the US, but they make a fixed 30x reticle for the TBG65 and TBG80, it is the same one made for the german military forces, AND you can get it shipped to the US.
    Click to expand...

    I have heard of Optolyth but I really have no desire to buy a new spotter. Being that Kowa is pretty popular in the shooting circles, I am amazed that some aftermarket outfit wouldn't make one. Maybe the investment cost is too great for the market appeal.
     
    My initial recommendation to NF before they came out with their spotter was to do a Kowa eye piece with their reticles, they could have created eye pieces either Mil or MOA and some Kowa fit Swarovski as well. Less money, more demand, plus the pre-existing Kowas out there in F Class which fits in their wheel house with the Competition Series.

    I have and use the old P3 Zeiss ones, I had 3, gave one to Clint Smith, so I rock two now.

    Not an Optolyth fan we had one at Rifles Only and it was unusable down there. Nobody wanted to get stuck with it.

    There are plenty of good options with reticles now, I used the new Minox it's really nice for the money
     
    Lowlight said:
    My initial recommendation to NF before they came out with their spotter was to do a Kowa eye piece with their reticles, they could have created eye pieces either Mil or MOA and some Kowa fit Swarovski as well. Less money, more demand, plus the pre-existing Kowas out there in F Class which fits in their wheel house with the Competition Series.

    I have and use the old P3 Zeiss ones, I had 3, gave one to Clint Smith, so I rock two now.

    Not an Optolyth fan we had one at Rifles Only and it was unusable down there. Nobody wanted to get stuck with it.

    There are plenty of good options with reticles now, I used the new Minox it's really nice for the money
    Click to expand...

    Which Minox? I used one at Curt's class this past September. He is a big Minox fan. I really liked the spotter and the ZP5 scope with the MR4 reticle as well
     
    NRA , as much as I hate the fuckers for lack of any real support, figured this shit out 60 years ago.

    Award schedule is posted when the program is approved. You list out who is awarded what, to include special categories. That way, when the LEO shooter who came in 6th or 10th gets a plaque or trophy, or the only woman, or a junior who placed bottom 5 got a trophy or plaque the guy who came in 4th knows why. (to promote participation and drive a future for those interested - not really working but that's a larger, different issues). Maybe that drives away a few shooters, but they're probably whiney cocksuckers anyway. This isn't a job, and if it is you're in the wrong business..

    Berger Nationals sold out in 13 minutes. That may be twice what it takes to sell out a GAP grind, etc. but it's fast as shit for highpower. Prize table was like $200k but nobody knew that going in. Nobody I know of was bitched about anything except them not allowing a national record (200-22x at 1k on a half MOA target) to be cut out for the shooter. (I might be confusing this with another match) Bad form, but nobody really got bent out of shape. Nobody sighed up for a prize table. They didn't know what prizes would be beyond a couple slabs of wood or a few nickel bowls. 350 shooters.

    IMO, a series should set a guideline for the "trophied" awards and let the prize table get raffled/lottery/etc. The MD should designate the special catagoties and how a prize table is divided prior and it should be advertised when the registration is opened. Exception is a sponsor directly asks that "X" gets what they submitted then it goes out random.

    Maybe it'll work for Ninja matches, maybe not. If shooters aren't coming for the love of the game it's doomed to fail anyway.

    I remember where these matches derived from. It was non Mil/LEO being excluded from the few matches a year that got put on. Best you could do was training at Storm Mountain, etc. , Then Rifled onky when that range was built. Man has shit changed...
     
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    Lowlight said:
    Not an Optolyth fan we had one at Rifles Only and it was unusable down there. Nobody wanted to get stuck with it.
    Click to expand...
    I have no idea how long ago your experience was, but my shooting partner has a brand new TBG 80 that compares favorably to the Leica Televid 77 and to my Kowa. I would have to give the nod to the Kowa, but not by much. It easily outclassed the Leupolds and Nightforce TS-80's it has been compared with.

    It would be interesting to hear your estimation of a current example.
     
    FatBoy said:
    I remember where these matches derived from. It was non Mil/LEO being excluded from the few matches a year that got put on. Best you could do was training at Storm Mountain, etc. , Then Rifles Only when that range was built....
    Click to expand...

    And Tac-Pro, Bill and Alice Davidson, and Badlands, Bobby Whittington and Steve Suttles....

    And then one day Jacob called and said "Whatta ya know about a runt named Lowlight ?" And it was game on....

    I remember one Rifles Only Snipershide Cup where as a RO, I got to pick off the table and I got two caps, that I was oh so proud to get, still got em...

    Would put their picture here, but no can do...
    What's up with that Frank, no pic ?
     
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    For several years after the events described above, the RO/SH events were sold out in minutes and Lisa had a waiting list.
    Then there were two events per year, and maybe three. The prize tables were huge.

    Match Director was posting on the board, asking the winners to please thank the vendors who put up prizes, because even then the vendors got little recognition, back then people were swapping prizes among themselves, and selling big prizes the same day.

    Nothing described in the posts above is new... Frank and I saw all that early on at RO. Nothing changes.
    Greed is an ugly thing. Cut throat is an ugly thing. Early PRS had some serious cut throat. It's why I closed my range to such.
    I remember the two to three months soliciting table prizes and how hard it was, the amount of work a MD had to put in. And the disrespect and whining a MD had to listen to. Absolutely nothing is changed.

    Now, enough history, but, those who forget it, repeat it.
    If the top dogs get it all, best prizes, every time, and sell them, or try to trade for cash, the sponsors get harder to reach. Makes the MD life tougher, and harder to get a good prize table.

    And it shuts down the 90% that pay the bills. It's hard to have sports growth when you alienate that 90%. Stagnation happens.

    The core will continue to support the program but,..... but, it's up to the MD to create both a challenge and a fair prize table to keep the sport growing.
    Constructive criticism is welcome and gives a MD ideas, but,....... but it's not always possible to institute those changes immediately and then the MD sees the criticism become cutting instead of constructive.
    A level of hostility grows. You see it in board discussions.

    All of the above and more, leads to what you see in this topic being discussed, there are many suggestions but fewer solutions.
    Match Directors really need tough skins. A couple of bitching competitors need punching in the mouth (none of you here guys....), and new shooters need to be encouraged and mentored to keep the sport growing.

    I dont see any mentoring. Where is it ?
     
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    j-huskey said:
    I dont see any mentoring. Where is it ?
    Click to expand...

    its there...look at the different club series locations popping up around the country, multiple areas in TX (and other places around the country) hosting monthly matches with 60-90 people, every month...the problem in our area, i think it is actually hurting the PRS matches...the last 2 PRS matches in TX this year both barely had 85-90 people i think

    if a newer shooter can shoot 1 match every month (theres usually 2-4 per month within 4 hrs of me, but we'll just use 1) for $50, and shoot against 80-90% of the same competition he would see at a PRS match, what incentive do they have for paying $300 to shoot against the same guys plus a handful extras? The only real difference is a little more fanfare and a prize table, majority of them wont place high enough consistently to have a chance to qualify for the finale so paying the money to have their scores tracked doesnt interest them


    and the other poster who mentioned the Berger SWN, thats 1 match per year...theres just too many PRS matches to treat them ALL like a big time national match, imagine how the SWN would change if there was 3 of them every month....when i started shooting PRS matches there were very few matches to choose from...they were spread out, and they were all a much bigger deal...now theres a handful to pick from every month and nothing has been adjusted on the PRS side of things to account for this
     
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    Good reply.
    I dont see the growing club matches as mentoring though,
    mentoring to me is Shannon Kay starting a squad of younger shooters, donating prize rifles and scopes won by him, working with them, and entering them in those matches you speak of, and travelling with them to those matches, coaching them through them.

    Your second paragraph describes the pushback against the top dogs dominating the major matches - the cutthroat - and unequal distribution of prizes, it describes people wanting the PRS to grow, growing it, in a manner the less equipped and experienced shooters can compete in and have fun.
    I've got several of my normal shooters participating in those matches and base my reply here on their feedback.

    I applaud the match directors who are starting these clubs, even though it might detract from "the major" matches, because its bringing up that 90% to where they will want to participate in a major match for the better prizes.
    Those smaller clubs are good for the sport.

    Now, how can this effort improve on the issues discussed in the podcast ??
     
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    This isn’t NASCAR. It’s one of many obscure sports that we are fortunate to live in America where were have the time and resources to enjoy. It’s not a pro sport. If you look at the pro sports, people earn a living and pay bills from their winnings. Sponcers foot the bill through advertising. The sponcers of pro sports often are unrelated to the sport itself. The sports as broad spectator appeal to segment of the American population.

    I once competed in two other obscure sports. Downhill skiing and bike racing. I was fortunate to win several divisional and regional events. Occasionally there was prize money that might defray cost of travel. You knew going in that this was about camaraderie and measuring your skill and performance against yourself and others. Most athletes on the USski Team fund much of their own training and travel through benefactors and fund raising. A handful get corporate
    Support.

    Creating structure to the series and transparent payout for each event and a season final. Combine that with a code of ethics surrounding sponcers and prizes. This would create realist expectations for the competitors. It seems we are at a cross roads and need to be deliberate in creating the culture that will exist going forward.

    There is not enough money in this sport for the sponcers to shoulder the financial burden of growing and hosting events. It needs to be shared by the participants.

    One mans opinion from the middle of the pack......
     
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    j-huskey said:
    Good reply.
    I dont see the growing club matches as mentoring though,
    mentoring to me is Shannon Kay starting a squad of younger shooters, donating prize rifles and scopes won by him, working with them, and entering them in those matches you speak of, and travelling with them to those matches, coaching them through them.

    Your second paragraph describes the pushback against the top dogs dominating the major matches - the cutthroat - and unequal distribution of prizes, it describes people wanting the PRS to grow, growing it, in a manner the less equipped and experienced shooters can compete in and have fun.
    I've got several of my normal shooters participating in those matches and base my reply here on their feedback.

    I applaud the match directors who are starting these clubs, even though it might detract from "the major" matches, because its bringing up that 90% to where they will want to participate in a major match for the better prizes.
    Those smaller clubs are good for the sport.

    Now, how can this effort improve on the issues discussed in the podcast ??
    Click to expand...

    i see where youre at on the mentoring thing, and yes, most of the "mentoring" isnt that specific...its more the top shooters of a region taking a squad of newer guys and trying to help/herd them in the right directions...during the club matches the seasoned shooters try to help the newer as much as possible, but they definitely arent taking it to that level

    time wise, myself, i wouldnt even be able to do it...between trying to shoot and put on matches for our local region, id be busy 24/7, and im sure lots of guys are in the same boat or worse...i havent actually ran a timed, practice prs stage in prolly 2 yrs, just havent forced making the time


    thats part of the divide, lots of guys want the PRS to stay "best of the best", dont cater to the new guys...the new guys can take their lumps to eventually compete at that level...but that doesnt work well for growing the PRS, but im not sure they all realize that or care

    im not sure how to improve the prize table issues, but ive felt like for a while matches are going to have to tone it down or cut the number...either have 40-50, smaller in scale, $150, 2 day matches without prize tables/food/shirts/etc...just good stages and competition with a few trophies...or only 10-15 big national events spread out over the year and let the 1 day club matches pick up the slack in between
     
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    Timetoshoot said:
    There is not enough money in this sport for the sponcers to shoulder the financial burden of growing and hosting events. It needs to be shred by the participants.
    Click to expand...

    Shooters are already footing the bill for everything. The gear they buy, the training and memberships they sign up for, the match fees they pay, They are the only source of revenue in this whole system.

    Sponsors put gear on prize tables in the hopes of selling more gear to shooters, not out of some altruistic need to fund a competition circuit. If it's not selling gear for them, they will pull the plug and do something else with their marketing dollars.

    A lot of the bickering is just fighting over how to split up that tiny pot of money in the industry, turf wars about who's in charge, and finger pointing about "it's your job to grow the sport".... "No, it's YOUR job to grow the sport".
     
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    Sheldon N said:
    A lot of the bickering is just "bickering" "maybe whining..."

    fighting over how to split up that tiny pot "me, me, me !"

    turf wars ,"me, me, me !"
    Click to expand...

    And that was how it was on day one of the PRS start up, with over half of the RO/SH Cup shooters leaving Snipershide because of "us vs them and who was going to get the biggest pot of goodies". That was really ugly.

    But, we still dont have a solution to the question initially posed... seems to have grown.

    Fatboy mentioned NRA classes and prizes based on class.
    NRA classes go back to military classifications. Marksman, Sharpshooter, Expert, and were encouraged in civilian marksmanship training in the CMP. As it grew and needed changes, added Master, then High Master, then they shrunk the bullseye and added F Class, but kept the same classifications. This was sport growth based on several factors, improved equipment, improved ammunition, improved performance, and a need to make it harder to reach higher levels.
    But.... it is still based on scores points, with cut off points between classification levels. Just like your school report card.. everything is different, but the same, but different.

    In PRS, the manner of making it harder to reach higher levels of performance has been raising the difficulty levels exponentially. Equipment has been developed to deal with this difficultly level and that "gaming" thing.
    And the top scorers are of three points, top athletic, top equipped, and top thinkers who game well.

    The simplest solution to classes is based on scored points. 70% lowest class, etc, prizes awarded. Yada.
    And equipment limitations. Stock vs custom, caliber vs caliber, or an iteration of it.
    And everybody knows, you can buy this bag or that, for either class, no limit on peripheral equipment as long as you can carry it and complete the event under time.

    And no, I'm not touching on the distribution of high dollar prizes any time soon.....

    Just talking about classification and a way to level out the distribution of prizes b4 going further.

    To agree on classification, you need an organization to monitor it, a board to design them, match directors to support it, and a membership to vote out the board when they become too dictatorial. I dont see that happening any time soon.
     
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    I'm not a stellar competitor shooter; I'm a middle of the pack shooter, and I'm good with that. I have a full time job that pays me well, and expects my priorities to be on that, and not my hobbies. That being said....After shooting the '15 Cup I can tell you, what I saw from some of the top guys was enough to make my stomach turn. I mean, I felt embarrassed for them, their behavior was so bad. The free for all for the swag bags, the clique'ish behavior, the arrogance...as a new shooter at my first match I was torn. Frank put on the best match/CoF I had ever experienced. Shit we could only dream about as a training environment in the Marines. Juxtapose that against the behavior of some of the shooters and you can easily see the conflict.

    Don't get me wrong, there are a BUNCH of good guys that shoot this sport (and shoot it well). But if you don't think there is an ugly undercurrent in this sport/hobby, you're lying to yourself.

    Smh...nothing like money/wealth/pride to bring out the worst in people. It's probably why I have stuck to local matches, where there is no prize table, and everyone that is there, is there because they want to shoot. I have to put on a nice face with people I have to deal with at work, I have no desire to go to a match and smile and be friendly with someone(s) everyone knows is a self centered prick.
     
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