The airing of grievances and the response.

[Hippy_Steve]

Frank said it best a while back: this is a hobby, not a professional sport. The biggest issues seem to revolve around how the PRS series runs and the entitlement a small vocal population of the hobby feel. From the perspective of a new guy, i think sponsors should take a step back from supporting PRS until PRS restructures their role and investment into its competitors. Sponsors shouldn't be burdened with financially supporting an entity that readily takes from the pot, but then washes its hands of any responsibility to maintain or replenish that pot.

 

[Colt1776]

I'm looking forward to getting my ass handed to me in my first match because I know I'll learn something. I'm paying to surround myself with skilled shooters and high end equipment. No matter what, I'm going to gain experience I could not gain otherwise. Prize table? What prize table?

Coming from a newer shooter been shooting PRS for this year I have learned a ton for all the matches I've been to so much more that what you can ever read on the internet. Feel free to ask the guys whatever comes to mine they will be willing to help you out.

 

[pitdog85]

I listen to all franks podcasts I'm in Australia and I find this whole situation a bit of a joke. I don't know if its an American thing or just a PRS thing (I love Americans please don't take that the wrong way) but every amateur sport Ive ever done here in Australia and Ive done a few competed at a fairly high level in triathlon at regional level is that you get a ribbon or a trophy when you place in an event?? I have never seen a sport where amateurs ( you are an amateur unless your main income is from your sport) expect to get prizes and stuff to the value of thousands of $$$ to cover your costs. This whole thing is farcical that mindset of entitlement needs to be crushed man.

 

[Mormegil87]

I did not have any issues with the Gradous but I was running Norma brass purchased from Tubb's website and OTM

 

[Basher]

I did not have any issues with the Gradous but I was running Norma brass purchased from Tubb's website and OTM

I think you meant to PM that to me, hahaha. Funny that I ran across it in this thread just by chance, though!

I listened to the podcasts this morning, and my first comment is: I'm trying to drop some weight, and you guys had me craving cookies like freakin' crazy! Not cool!

As for the prize tables, I agree with many that prizes aren't meant to be flipped in an effort to support the competitors. You've stated the reasons why many times before, so I won't repeat them here, but where we're at right now, I don't think any league is large enough for anyone to make a living at it as a true "professional." Sure, we have "pro" shooters, but when people start comparing the PRS or NRL to the likes of the NFL or NASCAR, I can only laugh. Those are institutions that have been around for DECADES, and have a TON of support from VERY large companies. In the case of the NFL, sponsors come in all shapes and sizes, from Doritos, to Coke, to car companies, etc. With NASCAR, it's similar, but then you have to add in the fact that a LOT of the tech being used gets trickled down to production vehicles, meaning a good bit of the costs can be recovered through sales, eventually. We don't have anything even remotely close to that in the precision rifle world. We're not working on tech that will be sold to literally millions of people like a car will. So the funds just don't exist to support someone, as presently constituted.

Major changes will have to happen for that to become a reality, and until then, I think Frank's idea of a discount or other benefit being the reward at matches is a great idea. Sure, sponsors can donate hard goods if they want, and I think a few of those is a good idea. But for smaller sponsors, or those who don't want to deal with people gaming the system, the discount system would be great!

 

[Sheldon N]

As for the prize tables, I agree with many that prizes aren't meant to be flipped in an effort to support the competitors.
...
But for smaller sponsors, or those who don't want to deal with people gaming the system, the discount system would be great!

I think it's unfair to characterize it as "gaming the system" or to criticize a shooter for choosing a the best prize off the prize table or for selling it if that's what they decide to do.

I've got no sponsors or anyone to offend, so I'll just speak from my own experience. I'm starting to get good enough to where I get a chance to pull a decent prize off the table sometimes. We had our regional finale last week and I shot pretty well all season so I got to walk the prize table in 2nd place. There wasn't a huge prize table but there were a couple really nice prizes worth $500 to $1k and then a lot of prizes that were more of a grab bag type worth $50. I'm put in the position of choosing my own prize, what do you expect me to do? Am I supposed to say "Aw shucks, I don't need that" and walk away? Is there some expectation that I pull it off the table then go find a "deserving shooter" and give it to them? I try to go out of my way to be a nice guy, help shooters, answer questions, give tips, loan out my gear, etc. Am I supposed to donate a $500 prize to someone too? The tough thing about prizes is that it's hard to find exactly the thing you need on the table, so if you choose the "best" prize it might just be based on what the dollar value is.

Sponsors know this happens, they're not dumb. They're also not putting prizes on the table to fund top shooters. What they get out of the deal is visibility of their name/product, being seen as a "supporter of the sport", getting called out to the shooters during match briefings and banquets, having their gear in a desirable spot on the prize table where all the shooters will come and look at it, having their name on banners and posted on facebook, having their gear featured in a thank you from someone who won it (hopefully). It puts them in the middle of things. They make the choice how they market their product, hell most of the owners of these companies are strong competitors too and they know how the prize tables work.

Sure it's kinda "ugly" from the outside to see a shooter who has all the gear they could ever want take a prize and then resell it - especially when it's a guy that's won before. But from that shooter's perspective it's a logical and reasonable thing to do. There should be no expectation from the outside that they walk away from it or give it away... that's just socialism.

And the cries of "The system is broken, distribute the wealth" smacks of socialism and participation trophy attitudes too. The only ones who IMO have the right to demand that change are the sponsors themselves.

 

[Basher]

My comment was poorly worded, perhaps, and it does look like it paints with a broad brush. It wasn't my intent to label anyone who takes a good prize and evetually flips it as someone who games the system. I'm not trying to say that anyone who grabs a good prize and flips it to get something better suited to their needs is a bad sport, etc. I guess my angle is guys who are like repeat, repeat re-sellers, and who post the item for sale the day after the match or call Monday to get a "refund."

I totally understand that this sport/hobby/whatever is expensive. That's part of what I think Frank may be trying to say (correct me if I'm wrong here, Frank). The system is broken and needs a revamp. If there's a way to support the shooters who DO travel to every match, we should endeavor to find it, but keeping things the way they are isn't working. There has to be a better way than flipping prizes at every match to recoup funds, because the mentality that often goes along with that is upsetting/driving away sponsors, or has the potential to.

 

[Sheldon N]

there's a way to support the shooters who DO travel to every match, we should endeavor to find it, but keeping things the way they are isn't working. There has to be a better way than flipping prizes at every match to recoup funds, because the mentality that often goes along with that is upsetting/driving away sponsors, or has the potential to.

Agree that nobody wants to see an entitlement mentality. None of us is entitled to anything here, and I bet most guys winning prizes would agree with that. It's also not about "supporting" those shooters, these guys generally don't need the money. They choose what matches they want to go to, maybe that's based on needing series points, maybe that's based on really liking a particular match, or maybe it's based on knowing that a certain match has a really good prize table.

I still think the whole thing reason this conversation got started goes back to "Fairness". This is a competition after all, and when someone gets to walk the prize table in a position that doesn't seem "fair" in alignment with match results, it rubs some people the wrong way. Sure there's money tied to it too, but it's about more than the money.

I don't think sponsors care that much that prizes get flipped. If they did, there are two simple words that would drastically change the whole system... "Not Transferable". A big chunk of the prizes are certificates after all.

 

[Tx_Aggie]

Why the emphasis on sponsors donating product?

This may already be done to some extent, but why not ask them to sponsor the match financially for some sort of tangible advertising? Something like sponsoring a specific stage, a specific award, providing added money to a jackpot style payout, etc?

This sort of sponsorship works in other recreational sports, it seems like it might be a good fit for something like PRS.

It would avoid sponsors feeling cheated in terms of their contributions (and they could still give product either for specific awards for a raffle/random prize draw if they prefer) and the payout checks would still give guys something to brag about and to offset some of their match costs without the need to dump expensive prizes in the PX the week after a match.

 

[mkollman74]

Shooters are already footing the bill for everything. The gear they buy, the training and memberships they sign up for, the match fees they pay, They are the only source of revenue in this whole system.

Sponsors put gear on prize tables in the hopes of selling more gear to shooters, not out of some altruistic need to fund a competition circuit. If it's not selling gear for them, they will pull the plug and do something else with their marketing dollars.

A lot of the bickering is just fighting over how to split up that tiny pot of money in the industry, turf wars about who's in charge, and finger pointing about "it's your job to grow the sport".... "No, it's YOUR job to grow the sport".

As you describe it, its all about the $$$. That is probably mostly true. Recognizing that, the answer to prizes is pretty straightforward from my perspective. Since the the $250 the last place guy spends to compete is exactly equal to the $250 the first place guy spends to compete, you structure the prizes to appeal to the masses. As has been said multiple times in this thread, "the bottom 90% pay the bills". If that is true, why should a match director care if sponsored/top shooters play or not? If they don't like how the prize table works, shoot somewhere else. Your $250 entry fee will likely be replaced by someone else.

 

[slayer 2c]

As you describe it, its all about the $$$. That is probably mostly true. Recognizing that, the answer to prizes is pretty straightforward from my perspective. Since the the $250 the the last place guy spends to compete is exactly equal to the $250 the first place guy spends to compete, you structure the prizes to appeal to the masses. As has been said multiple times in this thread, "the bottom 90% pay the bills". If that is true, why should a match director care if sponsored/top shooters play or not? If they don't like how the prize table works, shoot somewhere else. Your $250 entry fee will likely be replaced by someone else.

I'm new to the competition game so correct me if I'm wrong. I know in other sports that the top guys are almost advertising to the rest of us, as in their presence causes more people to sign up. That maybe the reason that the MD's are trying to cater to them.

Now that said I have only gone to competitions with no prize table at all so I am no authority!!!

 

[morganlamprecht]

I listen to all franks podcasts I'm in Australia and I find this whole situation a bit of a joke. I don't know if its an American thing or just a PRS thing (I love Americans please don't take that the wrong way) but every amateur sport Ive ever done here in Australia and Ive done a few competed at a fairly high level in triathlon at regional level is that you get a ribbon or a trophy when you place in an event?? I have never seen a sport where amateurs ( you are an amateur unless your main income is from your sport) expect to get prizes and stuff to the value of thousands of $$$ to cover your costs. This whole thing is farcical that mindset of entitlement needs to be crushed man.

they expect that because thats how its been...when i first started shooting, going to my first match ever, guys were telling me about the prize table and if u shoot good enough you get a walk, and it was like that up until last year or so...MDs advertise how big and awesome their prize tables were

some matches had a few prizes set aside for certain recognition, but the majority of the table was placement based

imagine i invite you to a match, you show up not knowing what to expect...shoot, do terrible...you see everyone who won getting called and getting chunks of the cash handed to them. so you go home and practice cause you want to win and you want some of that money....next match you finish high, and get some cash, next match again...and you continue to do this for a few years, youre winning everything because you worked for it...everyone knows when you show up, youre getting most of that money...then one day you show up and theyre tired of you winning by now...they start giving prizes to everyone you beat

thats basically why some people are rubbed the wrong way about it all...the prizes are "expected" now, because thats the way theyve been

same thing happened at a local shoot around here...same couple of us started winning every time and real quick it was "lets just shoot for bragging rights from now on"...i still show up and shoot whenever im free

our local club matches host 50+ shooters every month (a good amount of which are the same ones shooting PRS events), and none of them expect any prize table...because we've never had one from the beginning

a precedence was set, and now its being dealt with

do away with the prizes and lets shoot for a handful of trophies, the one with the #1 on it is the only one that makes my weekend a success anyways lol
i like the idea of sponsored stages mentioned above, as well

 

[earthquake]

I wonder what match turnout would be at these big 2-day matches, with no prize tables?
Only a trophy for 1st - 5th place. No top JR/Lady/mil/tac/LGBTQ....just 1-5.

Cash payouts to top 5 or so and maybe like was said, discount coupons or whatever to shooters who paid to be there so the sponsors get business and visibility.

Personally, I want a trophy. I want to earn one. I couldn't care less about getting a rear bag or hat off the table just for showing up. While much appreciated, it's still kind of weird to me. I am nowhere near dedicated enough to place in the top 50, let alone top 20 at a big two day PRS match...just don't have the time or money to do it. I won't be rejoining PRS next year, because it does zero for someone like me, us bottom 90%-ers. I plan on focusing on smaller 1-day local matches with no prize tables. I just want to compete, have fun, and not be bent over by travel costs and match fees....or all the drama.

My first match was the '14 SHC. It was a lot of fun and I was able to get a TacOps drag bag off the prize table....I still have it and use it. To date it's been the biggest/best thing I ever took home.

 

[morganlamprecht]

I wonder what match turnout would be at these big 2-day matches, with no prize tables?
Only a trophy for 1st - 5th place. No top JR/Lady/mil/tac/LGBTQ....just 1-5.

probably not good for 95% of them if they still charged $300 entry, some of the bigger more established matches would be ok, but the smaller, new places would suffer

 

[mercracing]

probably not good for 95% of them if they still charged $300 entry, some of the bigger more established matches would be ok, but the smaller, new places would suffer

I disagree. The matches I shoot, both local 1 day and large 2 day are shot for fun, being with friends, and meeting new people. I think that’s how it is for a lot of people.

 

[morganlamprecht]

yea it sounds good to say that, but i bet reality changes it real fast

in TX guys can shoot a 1 day for $50 against 75 people with no prizes

why would they ever pay $300 to shoot for 2 days for no prizes? the numbers turning out at matches tell the story already...look at the PRS matches this year that struggled to field 75-90 shooters

 

[mercracing]

A lot of people who aren’t in TX or AZ or anywhere close to a big range. I’ve gone to SD and TN for two day matches. I would/will go again if there are no prizes. I’m in it to shoot, not to win a prize.

 

[Lowlight]

Scalability, that is the missing element.

If you take the SH / RO matches, we had huge prize tables and advertised it as part of the match. RO and I shared sponsors, SH used our match as a cost matching prospect. If you wanted to be a commercial sales member you had to give a prize to our match. Near the end of my interest, before a lot of the PRS Shooters spoiled my tea, I used to have giant tables. The 2014 Match had 10 tables and 7 rifles, 2015 when the prize table was an issue, I stopped because of the BS. So my tables immediately went to minimal. Jacob at RO continued to have a bigger table.

Our tables averaged $200,000+ in value so everyone got at least $1000 worth of product.

Fast forward to everyone copying what we did with 1/4 or 1/8 the size of the table and potentially more shooters. So they have less prizes for more shooters and want to do the same thing WE did, that does not work.

Sponsors do care about the prizes being sold, they mention it all the time. That usually prompts them to tell you before the next match, "Find a creative of giving the prize away". They will often come out and say straight up, spread the wealth, or try to find someone who will used it. The companies that use cutouts like marketing companies, they don't care as much, they just want the single image of the winner. But other companies are looking for a ROI for their donation. The sale on Monday hurts them in the long run as it devalues the product and the impact.

The model is flawed, because the situation on the ground has changed. It was up to the Series to adjust but because the inmates made the rules and ran the show, it never changed because it worked for the winnings. Mid Pack shooters were not making the rules, the top 25 guys via their cliques did and why would they go against their self interest?

They took shortcuts, they refused to address drama and sit back and pretend its not their problem. Yet they are paid and advertise themselves as the purveyor of excellence.

There are solutions, plenty of them, I gave MHSA an off the cuff solution to by pass competitions but support the shooters. It took me all of 3 minutes to increase their output and increase their exposure, by Spending Less Money and not giving a prize to a match. Focusing on their customers, and still supporting the competitor on their terms . No who knows if they do it, but if they do, they will reach more people and give back at the same time.

You have to be willing to compromise, to look at the big picture and see it from 3 sides, Shooter, Series and MD, because all 3 are part of it.

 

[morganlamprecht]

A lot of people who aren’t in TX or AZ or anywhere close to a big range. I’ve gone to SD and TN for two day matches. I would/will go again if there are no prizes. I’m in it to shoot, not to win a prize.

thats good for you, but im talking about the big picture...LOTS of people are near a bunch of matches, and they wont travel and pay more

they already dont...

 

[morganlamprecht]

You have to be willing to compromise, to look at the big picture and see it from 3 sides, Shooter, Series and MD, because all 3 are part of it.

seems like no one can do this...everyone always talks about what/how they do and ignore the other 2 sides whichever they may be

 

[Sheldon N]

Morgan, I like your comment about "expected" prizes. I think that's different than "entitled". It's normal for a shooter to count the costs of going to a match and perhaps predict what benefit there might be from the prize table if you pay to travel and attend. No guarantees but a shooter can predict based on past experience what they might expect to win, and that might make the difference in whether they go or not. Especially when there are 20 or 30 matches you can choose from and you know which matches have better industry support.

Now when you show up and watch the MD give away prizes in a way that seems unfair, it's normal to be upset. There have been matches where prize table order went Top Open, Top Tac and that made a huge difference in the dollar value of prize for 2nd place open. And top tac was just another sponsored shooter who decided to compete in Tac Division because it was a smaller pond/because they wanted points. Should they be getting the best of the table?

Sometimes I think that's just a straight up mistake by the MD not realizing what they are doing. I've been at matches and listened to an experienced MD give advice to a new MD who was about to let Top Tac walk the prize table up at the top of the list. Essentially the advice was "Don't do that man, your just giving big prizes to sponsored shooters chasing points in the B-league". I've also seen matches where a new MD let top Tac 1, 2 and 3 walk the prize table right after Open 1, 2, 3.... there were only three tac shooters at the match.

Going back to Frank's comment about how big the prize tables used to be, it really is just a case of the number of matches going up and the amount of sponsor donations not being able to scale with it. No way to fix that, IMO.

What I do see is heightened sensitivity on the need to create value for sponsors. The NRL does a great job of that with their media operation and in working the partnership between MD, sponsors, and running the series. And some of the better prize tables were at the NRL matches as a result of that. Sponsors see the value they are getting.

Another cool approach from one match last year was the idea of just one major prize for each stage instead of a prize table. Each stage got the visibility of being the stage sponsor, the prize was known up front, and the shooter with the highest score/fastest time won it (and could only win one prize). It changed the dynamics of how you approached the match. Do you shoot slow and steady and work towards total points and a match placing, or do you go balls to the wall and try to win a stage prize? It wasn't a handout of prizes to lower shooters since you still had to win it, but it shook up the normal order of who won what a little bit and got higher visibility for each donating sponsor.

 

[Mormegil87]

Morgan, I like your comment about "expected" prizes. I think that's different than "entitled". It's normal for a shooter to count the costs of going to a match and perhaps predict what benefit there might be from the prize table if you pay to travel and attend. No guarantees but a shooter can predict based on past experience what they might expect to win, and that might make the difference in whether they go or not. Especially when there are 20 or 30 matches you can choose from and you know which matches have better industry support.

Now when you show up and watch the MD give away prizes in a way that seems unfair, it's normal to be upset. There have been matches where prize table order went Top Open, Top Tac and that made a huge difference in the dollar value of prize for 2nd place open. And top tac was just another sponsored shooter who decided to compete in Tac Division because it was a smaller pond/because they wanted points. Should they be getting the best of the table?

Sorry @Sheldon N but I have to respectfully disagree with the first part of this post. Shooters shouldn't expect anything at all, other than to go home in the same condition in which they arrived and have fun shooting the match. We all pay to travel to and shoot matches and to expect anything in return just doesn't seem right to me. We're paying for the experience.

Maybe it's my "midwestern nice" showing, but to turn around and sell a prize the day after the match and then using the cost of shooting as some sort of justification is an insult to the sponsor and the MD(s) that put in the work to get those sponsors. My local series went as far as saying if we saw any of our prize table items for sale on the series page that person would be banned from the series.

 

[morganlamprecht]

They expect it NOW...because it was offered in the first place

anyone who does something for an extended time and gets something in return...then has that something taken away or changed would feel some type of way about the change...anyone who cant see that isnt being honest with themselves...people dont work that way, this is reality

 

[Mormegil87]

I get that they expect it. What I'm saying is they shouldn't. Unless the match explicitly states that a prize or prizes is associated a certain finish; the expectations are their own, no promised us anything.

To be quite frank, I really don't care if the top guy is pissed that whoever the sponsor is, is donating THEIR prize, decided it should go to a lesser shooter. That is the sponsor's prerogative, after all it is THEIR prize until it officially changes hands. If a competitor doesn't like how that match handles their prizes, they don't have to shoot it.

 

[Sheldon N]

Exactly what Morgan said. Don't think of it as "expected"... think of it as "reasonable prediction of the future based on past experience".

And I'd agree that it's bad form to try to sell the prize on the same platform you promote the sponsors, it undermines the promotion they provided the prizes for. But I don't think you can tell the shooters what to do with the prizes after it's all said and done. and I don't think you should criticize them either.

 

[Mormegil87]

and shooter's shouldn't criticize sponsors after the fact either. That is what has started this whole thing.

 

[Sheldon N]

To be quite frank, I really don't care if the top guy is pissed that the who is donating THEIR prize decided it should go to a lesser shooter. That is the sponsor's prerogative, after all it is THEIR prize until it officially changes hands.

I'd clarify that often it's not the sponsor who made that call, it's the match director. And I'd also say that the decision is often made with lack of understanding of the players involved or the way other matches have run, rather than having some sort of intentionality behind it.

and shooter's shouldn't criticize sponsors after the fact either. That is what has started this whole thing.

I think what started this whole thing was shooters pointing out that they felt some of these (accidental/intentional) steering of prizes by match directors felt unfair. I don't recall anyone criticizing sponsors.

 

[Mormegil87]

Even if it's the MD who makes the decision, if the sponsor didn't dictate to him/her that it should go to an upper level shooter then it's the MDs choice. If the shooters don't like how the prizes are dolled out at a match, don't attend it the following year.

I'm sorry but this whole thing and the reason for this thread was because Pynch directly critized a sponsor who donated a prize to a lesser shooter.

If the top shooters want this "problem" of prizes going to lesser shooters fixed then petition the series to start paying out for specific top finishes at matches. Problem solved.

 

[Lowlight]

The sponsor did it, Not the MD.

MHSA is done with sponsoring matches because of this... at least traditionally, they were the ones AT THE MATCH who steered the prize. They heard the podcast first and were not happy.

it was not the MD it was MHSA Reps who attended.

The Top shooters still got rewarded in 3 ways:

1. Trophy
2. Prize (Believe he took home an NF)
3. Cash (Was an NRL Match)

Then MHSA had two additional High Dollar Prizes, an AT and NF and they "raffled" those, Jon went on the podcast cast and criticized that, he criticized Mil and LE getting recognized for their inferior finish and he felt everyone down the score sheet of the Top 10 winning a door prize or raffle is getting a participation trophy. Basically, any recognition of shooters not in the Top End was a participation trophy and akin to socialism. He compared the practice of giving prizes across the field to Bernie Sanders and Aaron called everyone who participates in this millennials

 

[Sheldon N]

Pynch directly critized a sponsor who donated a prize to a lesser shooter.

I listened to the podcast and he didn't say that. In fact, he said the opposite... "That's fine, if companies want to do that it's their prerogative".

What he criticized was a trend towards a prize system where it wasn't about the competition. And he talked about how when he lost it drove him to go back and train harder and win the next time around.

 

[Lowlight]

He was being PC,

He kept hedging and saying it was, "weird" to recognize people who did not finish high enough, Aaron filled in a few blanks but his message was clear. Repeated that giving a $7k prize to people he felt didn't earn it was the issue and over the course of the conversation he mentioned many issues just not in any given order.

This was an issue for sure because he mentioned this very issue to me personally at Gunwerks and then again when we spoke on the phone.

And he clearly was playing a lot of word games because he didn't want to offend anyone and kept hedging on his words.

 

[Mormegil87]

I disagree. I heard it the way Mike and Frank heard it. Just because he used the word "weird" doesn't mask his criticism of the fact that MHSA donated a better prize to someone down the line.

I've been fortunate enough to score a lot of cool stuff off of tables over the course of a few years from scope certs, to TBAC certs to barrels. I've also scored small prizes due to a poor performance. Ive taken lesser prizes at regional and local matches because I don't need the high dollar stuff and especially don't need to grab it and sell it Ive had people jump over me due to a random prize drawing or raffle. Or ROs walk the table ahead of me and grab an item I had my eyes on.

It happens, it's not that big of a deal. I don't need a prize to tell me I finished in A, B, or C place ahead of someone who placed in X, Y or Z place or in D, E or F division. I know, how I performed.

 

[Lowlight]

I mean they called their podcast Airing of the Grievances, clearly, they felt aggrieved enough to mention it, and referenced the cost more than once. They even said the $50,000 worth of prizes need to go to the Top guys as if. And they mentioned how much money MD bring home which was completely wrong and laughed at all over FB.

if after an hour of complaining he comes back around and says, "Well they can do what they want' doesn't diminish what was said in between the first and last word. The LE Thing happened too and Aaron caught it and immediately jump in and covered all the bases saying they were Pro LE / MIL but at the same time, they dont' deserve a trophy for 50th place.

The Specific 50th place reference was to the Marine in our squad at Gunwerks who got Top Mil with a 50th + place finish. Beau was shooting an 18" 308 Issued rifle. he said, they are paid to be in the military and shoot so why are rewarding them for bad finishes. He sort of made it sound like every LE and Mil Shooter was a Tyler Payne who only job in the military was to shoot comps.

I called him after it was forwarded to me a few days later, and spoke to him for 2 hours,

The reason why the sponsors are changing their way of doing business is specifically that the guys currently winning are selling stuff and winning multiple products from the same vendors like the AT, MHSA awarded Vibbert 2 ATs at least, possibly 3, I lost count, and they didn't want to give the AT to the same guy again and have it for sale on Monday. ROI ....

What benefit would it have been to MHSA to give Vibbert a 3rd or 4th AT whatever the number was, only to know it was gonna be for sale immediately after the match. Instead, it went to a guy shooting a Savage who instantly fell in Love.

Customer for Life vs a token gesture with an immediate resale at a loss.

Sponsored shooters are not gonna highlight a competitors product, they take the one picture after the match, forward that and move on. Zero ROI for the sponsor of the prize who is not "Their Sponsor"

 

[Sheldon N]

Fair enough. I certainly don't speak for Jon.

Like I said earlier this (prize table) game only exists to sell products, and sponsors have every right to do what they want with their marketing dollars that they think is going to sell the most product for them.

I just think it's a shame when everyone gets out the torches and pitchforks and wants to tar and feather the "greedy pros" just because they expressed an unpopular opinion.

 

[FatBoy]

do away with the prizes and lets shoot for a handful of trophies, the one with the #1 on it is the only one that makes my weekend a success anyways lol
i like the idea of sponsored stages mentioned above, as well

^this.

 

[Mormegil87]

Don't get me wrong I feel top finishes should be rewarded. But by the series and/or their direct sponsors. If they want to be considered quote unquote pro and the series whether PRS or NRL want bill themselves as a series to find the best in the nation then the series, not the match directors and the match sponsors should be rewarding the pro shooters for shooting the series.

 

[kriller134]

@Lowlight since you have a great understanding of what and how a series should be, would you start your own series?

 

[pitdog85]

can someone tell me where this podcast is so I can listen to it?

Edit found it

 

[Lowlight]

@Lowlight since you have a great understanding of what and how a series should be, would you start your own series?

@kriller134 no way, I lost interest in being the tip of the spear with this kinda stuff. I have no time and too much on my plate to begin with.

I wrote a model a few years ago, the MoST series uses much of it. Successfully as a small local series.

News flash, back in the sniper paradise days there was an International Rifleman League or something, around 2002 time frame, it failed. Too fractured, too many self interested fools looking to make a phony name, waste of time.

 

[j-huskey]

@kriller134 no way, I lost interest in being the tip of the spear with this kinda stuff. I have no time and too much on my plate to begin with.

I wrote a model a few years ago, the MoST series uses much of it. Successfully as a small local series.

News flash, back in the sniper paradise days there was an International Rifleman League or something, around 2002 time frame, it failed. Too fractured, too many self interested fools looking to make a phony name, waste of time.

And re news flash, int Rifle League. ... that was the most cut throat, back stabbing, friend fucking, cluster and fuck up from hell I ever saw.
The PRS startup and split off from RO/SH was civil compared to that shit then.

And life moves on... new faces trying to reinvent the wheel, nothing much changes.

 

[THEIS]

Hi,

So let me preface by saying I have no knowledge of 2 of the 3 triangle sides mentioned previously in regards to how things need to be looked at, so my question/comments are based purely on the business side of the industry.

So is the heart of the prize table issue as simple as this:
1. The series or whatever you want to call it outgrew in terms of number of events and regularity of events faster than the industry aka sponsors were able to handle?
1A. Did the series or whatever think they were going to drive the bus in regards of getting the industry to up their end of the game? Sorta like the build it and they will come mindset?

Who pays to run an event:
1. The series foot the money to run an event?
2. The MD foots the money?
3. Equal split between series and MD?

Who brings the sponsors to the individual events:
1. Does the series or whatever bring the sponsors to the MDs event?
2. Does the MD bring in their own sponsors to their individual event?
3. Equal split between the series and MD?

I can tell you that from reading threads like this because this is FAR from the first.....I think my company would get a much better ROI advertising here on snipers hide than any of these sanctioned events as they stand right now.

Sincerely,
Theis

 

[mkollman74]

I'm new to the competition game so correct me if I'm wrong. I know in other sports that the top guys are almost advertising to the rest of us, as in their presence causes more people to sign up. That maybe the reason that the MD's are trying to cater to them.

Now that said I have only gone to competitions with no prize table at all so I am no authority!!!

I have no doubt that is at least partially true for some folks, maybe even for the majority of folks. I know its not true for me, nor do I care much about prize tables. My point is/was that if the chance at a great prize also motivates registrations, then a middle of the pack shooter would likely still sign up so he could walk away with a great prize. I wonder which would motivate the masses more? Shooting with a top 5% shooter, or an equal chance at taking home a rifle because the prize table was randomly drawn?

Having said all of that, I rarely shoot matches anymore so my opinion doesn't mean much. When I do shoot, it is so I can see friends and challenge myself a bit. I like most of the guys who shoot in my area, including Sheldon N. They're a great and helpful bunch for the most part.

 

[Massoud]

From a sponsor's point of view, at lot of points being made are very true.

In fact, we stopped with large scale prize donation a few years ago and went to a motocross racing style contingency where guys get paid for finishing top 10 using our kit. These days we get barraged with so many requests for donations that even if we hadn't stopped on principle we would have to stop based on shear scale.

We have discussed with some match directors paying them a fee to hang our banner. Honestly this doesn't make a lot of sense financially for several reasons, one of which is below, but we still might do it.

MPA followed our lead recently with the contingency program so maybe that is gaining traction.

One thing a few people have touched on is that this is a hobby sport so far. There are pro ball players because millions of people pay to watch them. Sponsors make ROI based on all those eyeballs, as they say, with the spectators buying more Monster Energy drinks or whatever. I don't know how far we are from thousands, let alone millions, of people paying to watch high level PRS or having media outlets dedicated to covering PRS results and personalities, but it's not imminent.

There's a lot more to it of course but I'm keeping it concise. We hope the sport grows of course, we're trying to push it in the manner we think will work.
Justin

 

[slayer 2c]

Can I vote for the little guy??? I'm new to this game when compared to most everyone else. I shoot for me, because I enjoy it. But I spent some time in another extreme sport and was pretty successful at it. Ive traveled the country and been part of a sponsorship deal where companies paid for every dime of my tournaments. Tournements were we would routinely win 10-20k in prizes. Most of the time we gave (not sold) gave them to young players at the tournament. It wasnt charity it was growing the sport. Kids 12-16 would loose their minds when a "pro" handed them a $1500 gun. I would like to point out how cool it was of Mile High to support the little guy. I mean come on guys, how cool would it be to watch that guys face light up when he Mike handed him that AI??? I listen to every podcast Frank puts out, I've read every post in this thread and I just feel like most of us are missing the point of it. Mile High and I can only assume others as well don't want to support the ungrateful, the people who believe that they deserve this or that. They want to support the little guys, the guys who make the calls on monday morning and max the credit card to get the gear they see. The guys who may never make the podium but are buying all the same. The top guys don't pay the bills!!! We do. If they don't see that or get that FUCK em. I for one believe in spreading the wealth to the people that grow the sport. And I for one will choose to spend my dollars with the companies that support us, not the top ten only.

 

[schmi015]

anyone that wins an AT that already has 2-3 of them please msg me

 

[NateVA]

Well we've heard from KRG, so that should quiet a bit of the ridiculous "Sponsors don't have a problem with the way things are!" talk. I also remember Kelly McMillan chiming in to support Frank's points when this first flared up.

 

[Lowlight]

I must have struck a nerve as they created a new fake series page on FB and they are trolling me hardcore with it

 

[j-huskey]

I must have struck a nerve as they created a new fake series page on FB and they are trolling me hardcore with it

You reckon it has anything to do with they dont like their hypocrisy exposed ??

 

[Lowlight]

Ya they are back in shoot the messenger mode

I bet the missing voices from the clique tells the story

Funny they are trolling me with Dawson because he shot with Prime. Guarantee someone crosses the line and pisses Prime off, after they have been a big sponsor of both series. Shrewd.

 

[nfoley]

These divisive threads are tough to read. I shot a bunch of 2day NRL and PRS matches this year. I am fairly new to the sport, but I cannot say I ever heard or participated in a single conversation during any match that left me with the same emptiness as reading some of these threads.
The bottom line is we are all shooting the matches for pretty similar reasons - we like to shoot and we want to do well.

Are there differences in opinion about how a prize table should be doled out after all shooting is done? Sure. Again, should be no surprise to anyone. At the beginning of the season I really looked forward to getting to the table early and getting something cool. As the season progressed all I really wanted was to shoot well, and cared less and less about what was on the prize table. I suppose it's easy to label those that consistently do well (read that as practice a ton and are constantly thinking about doing better) as greedy or being 'entitled.' Labeling the top shooters as 'pro' is a little strange to me - no one is supporting a family from shooting these matches.

If you're reading this wanting to try shooting the 2 day matches (or ANY rifle match for that matter!) I sincerely hope you come out and shoot. Before you believe everything you read about them give one a try.