Any electricians want to lend me a hand?

Jigstick

Jigstick

“What’s the matter colonel sanders….chicken?”
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    • Jul 21, 2017
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    Pittsburgh PA
    #1
    Need some guidance on a project. If you’re willing to lend some assistance I’d appreciate it. If it ends up too complex for my liking I’ll abort and hire someone.

    I want to install a sub panel in my pool house. 100amp. Fed from my main panel. Approximately 130ft run. Buried underground. Already spoke to the inspectors so I have the data on trenching and inspections.

    Inspector said I could run direct burial URD wire sized appropriately. But I’ll need “bell reducers” to fit 1/0 cable into the 100amp breaker. Unsure of what exactly I’m looking for.

    FWIW I wired my entire basement and cottage. So I’m not a complete fuckstick
     
    #2
    I did my barn.... what can I help you with?

    electrician.jpg
     
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    #3
    Jigstick said:
    Need some guidance on a project. If you’re willing to lend some assistance I’d appreciate it. If it ends up too complex for my liking I’ll abort and hire someone.

    I want to install a sub panel in my pool house. 100amp. Fed from my main panel. Approximately 130ft run. Buried underground. Already spoke to the inspectors so I have the data on trenching and inspections.

    Inspector said I could run direct burial URD wire sized appropriately. But I’ll need “bell reducers” to fit 1/0 cable into the 100amp breaker. Unsure of what exactly I’m looking for.

    FWIW I wired my entire basement and cottage. So I’m not a complete fuckstick
    Click to expand...
    Lineman....not electrician so there's that ...
    You should be able to find a 100 Amp breaker that'll accept 1/0 wire. The bell reducer might be referencing the conduit size being reduced to fit through the wall or the knock out in the bottom of the panel.
    Should be a simple project. Pictures of the hot chick's around the pool would help with our evaluation 😏
     
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    #5
    Can someone double check my calculations. Is 1/0 or 2/0 URD thick enough to carry 100amps that distance underground? I need to power a 50amp heat pump. A 20amp water pump. And a final 20amp line just for LED lights / outlets in the shed itself
     
    #8
    Jigstick said:
    Can someone double check my calculations. Is 1/0 or 2/0 URD thick enough to carry 100amps that distance underground? I need to power a 50amp heat pump. A 20amp water pump. And a final 20amp line just for LED lights / outlets in the shed itself
    Click to expand...
    Is everything rated at 220 ?
    I'm betting the water pump is 20 amps at 120v (so that's 10 @ 220) and 40 amps @ 120 runs a helluva lotta lighting.

    Yes, if running aluminum my stuff shows 1/0 is right size, if running copper (spendy) I show 1awg.
    Remember to use no corrode type grease on every aluminum connection.

    Is your main service going to handle another 100 amp connection w/o issues on whatever is currently being run from it ?
    I'm not talking about having 2 slots open, I mean is it rated at 300 amps or so ?
     
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    #11
    URD direct burial cable can be an issue unless sand bedded correctly. If you nick the insulation with a shovel or something and water penetrates into the aluminum it will turn to powder in a matter of a couple weeks. Make certain to either sand bed or run in conduit.
    As far as sizing, just run #2, it is good for 100 amps. If you're worried about voltage drop you can upsize but go to a standard size that you are able to find.
    Copper is always better but with the current pricing its tough. Even aluminum has taken a sharp upturn and I hear it is becoming increasingly difficult to find.
     
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    #12
    armorpl8chikn said:
    Copper. I wouldn't run aluminum.
    You can run one size under for your neutral, that'll save you a tiny bit.
    I am bad about overkill though. I ran 2/0 copper for my 200A service, 30ft from the pole....so....
    Click to expand...
    Yeah, don't use aluminum!

    I actually didn't think it was allowed any more? Caused a lot of fires back in the day when electrolytic corrosion on copper/brass contacts made things get, well, sporty.

    Copper Romex/equivalent. Not aluminum wires!!!!

    Sirhr
     
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    #13
    sirhrmechanic said:
    Yeah, don't use aluminum!

    I actually didn't think it was allowed any more? Caused a lot of fires back in the day when electrolytic corrosion on copper/brass contacts made things get, well, sporty.

    Copper Romex/equivalent. Not aluminum wires!!!!

    Sirhr
    Click to expand...
    He's only referring to the 100 amp sub panel feeder. Aluminum romex went out of style with Jimmy Carter!
     
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    #15
    You’ll need SER until you get out of the house. I think if you use 2 copper SER it’s only rated for 90A. Some inspectors will let a 100A breaker slide but the correct size is 90. Then the 1/0-1/0-2 AL URD can run to your pool house, use conduit don’t direct bury. You’ll also need a ground wire run with it. It can be a bare #6 for 100A.

    You also need 2 ground rods 6’ apart at the sub panel.

    Keep your grounds and neutrals separate in the sub-panel and don’t install the bonding screw. You’ll need additional ground bars that mount to the panel.
     
    #21
    n2ishun said:
    Guys, y'all do understand the voltage drop of a 130 foot run, right ?
    2awg copper is not enough, it needs to be 1awg.
    I would use 4awg for ground too.....just because, and it's only a tiny bit more $ than 6.
    Click to expand...
    Sure, but what about the load diversity, not to mention we haven't even seen load calcs yet...
     
    #23
    I’ll update this thread with photos tomorrow. But to answer a few questions:

    I have a main panel in my garage which I believe is 200amp. That main panel supplies a sub panel in my basement. Which is rated to 125amps. I’m have two electricians lined up to give me an estimate on upgrading my basement sub panel for more juice. And possibly my main panel if need be.

    My plan is to jump from the basement sub panel, under ground 18in, in conduit, with whatever wire you guys recommend. Obviously the aluminum is cheaper right now. Four runs for 1-2awg copper wire at 130ft a piece will be pricy. And I’ll install a 100amp panel in my pool house to run the said equipment.



    The pool water pump is 20am 110. The heat pump is 50amp 110.

    Does this info help at all?
     
    #24
    That's 70 amps at 120.....or 35 at 240.
    You could squeek with a 50 amp to 70 amp sub and leave plenty for lighting.
    Less amps = smaller wire = less bucks.

    Give exact amp and voltage requirements for everything you plan on running.
    Once we have that, it's easy to give wire sizing for the run length.
    Find out what size main service this will be pulled from and then let us know what's running from that (currently).
    Should be easy peezy to spec it out.
     
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    #25
    Will do. I’ll crack open my main panel in my garage and snap a photo. As well as my basement panel and snap a photo.

    Not sure I follow about the 240 converting my 110 panels to 240. Or the new pool house panel to 240. How would I run 110 equipment off of 240
     
    #29
    You would need to buy equipment that operates at 240v. As n2ishun said you get 240 by using both hot legs of 120v from your sub. They are out of phase to each other so you get 240.
     
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    #31
    So my sub panel has 240v going to it? Well let’s keep it simple…based on those photos does it look like my main panel has enough juice? And sub panel? To carry the power I need up to the pool house?
     
    #32
    Being perfectly honest.
    You seriously need a new drop.
    You have a fully loaded 200 amp panel with a 100 amp sub already being pulled from it.
    Now you want to pull another sub off of a overloaded system ?
    It's ALL being fed by aluminum at this point, and not heavy enough to feed what is there....let alone, more.
     
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    #35
    n2ishun said:
    Being perfectly honest.
    You seriously need a new drop.
    You have a fully loaded 200 amp panel with a 100 amp sub already being pulled from it.
    Now you want to pull another sub off of a overloaded system ?
    It's ALL being fed by aluminum at this point, and not heavy enough to feed what is there....let alone, more.
    Click to expand...
    Yeah this is bad wanna know how I know? My home had aluminum wiring. It burned to the ground 2 weeks before Christmas 2004
     
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    #38
    2AL SER is only rated for 90A at 75C. Most residential equipment terminals are only rated for 75C so you can’t use the 90C table. Your basement panel should be fed with a 90A breaker. If you want a 125A to the basement panel you need to have that wire replaced with 1/0 or 2/0 AL SER.
     
    #39
    Jigstick said:
    This is the basement sub panel. From this sub panel I need to pull that power up to the pool house.
    View attachment 7892546
    Click to expand...
    That's not a bad job. But performing load calculations is what separates electricians from "installers."

    I would seriously advise that you call someone to come out. They can do an audit and tell you if your system has the capacity to handle additional load. Might cost a few bucks but it beats burning your house down or damaging your existing system.

    Mike
     
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    #40
    Is it looking like I need a new main panel? I can’t believe the house would pass inspection with an overloaded main panel. I’ve added nothing to that panel since we’ve built.

    Yeah I thought this might be more complicated than I could handle. I have one electrician coming tomorrow. And another one next Wednesday. To look at it all.

    I’m comfortable running line from an appropriate source, through the yard, into the pool house. And doing those connections. But I want no part of fucking with that main panel or basement panel.
     
    #41
    Your panel may not be overloaded... That's part of what an audit is about.

    You don't run your heat and A/C at the same time... So if your A/C pulls 40 amps and your heat 60 amps... Then you use the 60 amp load when adding up your connected load.

    See where I'm going with this?

    Mike
     
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    #42
    At a glance your main and sub look ok to me. Without digging out the code book I don’t know if you can feed a 100A sub out of a 100A sub. If the pool hardware is 70A total it’s going to get a continuous rating (125%) so you’re pretty much maxed out on the 100A pool panel and in turn the basement panel too.
     
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    #43
    OkieMike said:
    Your panel may not be overloaded... That's part of what an audit is about.

    You don't run your heat and A/C at the same time... So if your A/C pulls 40 amps and your heat 60 amps... Then you use the 60 amp load when adding up your connected load.

    See where I'm going with this?

    Mike
    Click to expand...
    And clothes dryer. (if electric)
    And stove. (looks like electric to it, could be dryer circuit)
    And microwave.
    Etc etc, ad nauseum.
     
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    #44
    Jigstick said:
    Is it looking like I need a new main panel? I can’t believe the house would pass inspection with an overloaded main panel. I’ve added nothing to that panel since we’ve built.

    Yeah I thought this might be more complicated than I could handle. I have one electrician coming tomorrow. And another one next Wednesday. To look at it all.

    I’m comfortable running line from an appropriate source, through the yard, into the pool house. And doing those connections. But I want no part of fucking with that main panel or basement panel.
    Click to expand...
    Don't let us get you worked up, we are just seeing what we can nitpick over the internet. What meets code and what we would do in our own home can often be two different things (meaning we go above and beyond). You're going to want somebody to help with the pool side of things anyway. Get somebody onsite to help you sort out your existing panel and capacity.
     
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    #45
    Jigstick said:
    I’ll update this thread with photos tomorrow. But to answer a few questions:

    I have a main panel in my garage which I believe is 200amp. That main panel supplies a sub panel in my basement. Which is rated to 125amps. I’m have two electricians lined up to give me an estimate on upgrading my basement sub panel for more juice. And possibly my main panel if need be.

    My plan is to jump from the basement sub panel, under ground 18in, in conduit, with whatever wire you guys recommend. Obviously the aluminum is cheaper right now. Four runs for 1-2awg copper wire at 130ft a piece will be pricy. And I’ll install a 100amp panel in my pool house to run the said equipment.



    The pool water pump is 20am 110. The heat pump is 50amp 110.

    Does this info help at all?
    Click to expand...

    Sure copper wire is expensive.
    You've got a pool house to put power to.....a pool house........
    Stop talking like a fucking poor.
     
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    #46
    Alot of advice here about copper vs aluminum. True it is better but 95% of the service drops coming to your house are aluminum. Unless it's overhead in a coastal area. Oxide inhibitor of some type and forget it. You will triple your conductor cost.
     
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    #47
    You should talk to an electrician that can check all the loads in person, but fron the pictures it seems your basement sub panel will never use the 100a that feeds it. I would look into downsizing the panel in the pool house to a size the basement sub panel can handle. To do it correctly load calcs need to be done to insure nothing will be overloaded.

    You cant rely on your inspector to insure your system isnt overloaded, all he cares about is if it meets code and has the proper overcurrent protection. I believe the inspector was talking about what we call lolypops to reduce the wire size since the lugs in the sub panel probably wont be big enough for the wire
     

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    #48
    So it looks like the heat pump specs are 240 volts at 60hz on single phase. Minimum circuit amps 42 amps, minimum overload protection 50amps, maximum overload protection 60amps.

    The 1.5hp water pump can run on 115v or 230v on a dedicated 20amp line

    The pool light is LED so shouldnt drawl much. The salt chlorinator system doesn’t drawl much either. And 3 LED shed lights and 3 outlets to charge phones, run a radio etc. I’m hoping all of this can be run on one 20amp line.

    So in total I need to have 3 circuits in the pool house.

    Heater
    Pump
    Light - salt system - shed outlets / lights
     
    Last edited:
    #49
    I haven't read through this whole thread, so this may have been covered.
    Get the nameplate information off each piece of equipment, pumps, heater, lights, etc. and I'll run a load and VD calculation for you when I get to work.
    I agree with everyone else, don't use aluminum. Aluminum wires have burned down more houses than anybody will admit to. We don't even spec aluminum at work. If the owner wants to VE to aluminum, that's 100% on them.
     
    #50
    I'm not an electrician but a retired mechanical, commercial HVAC contractor. Years ago, like early eighties, we were doing all the work on the new Microsoft campus. All the buildings were being cooled with large 150-200+ ton evap cooled Mammoth VAV units with Hitachi screw compressors. The manufacturer warranty required copper terminations but the electrical contractor ran aluminum as a VE and used what I recall were called "high pressed lugs" which I think were basically a copper termination that was pressed into the aluminum conductor. I guess in theory sort of a cold welding technique.
    At any rate, the architect, GC and owner's rep bought off on it.
    Well about two years down the road, guess what? We started losing compressors due to single phasing because of lose terminations
    $20,000 a pop.
    DO NOT USE aluminum!!
     
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