- Thread starter clark33
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Wtf $1595 for a tenacity? This was supposed to be their budget action under $1000 bucks.
Redhawk sent out an email said prices were going to go up.
Yeah I don’t mess with not prefit stuff so I was looking at the Ruckus. Seems like that TL3 purchase was fortuitous after all.
Yes it is...
Realistically, with a 15 month lead time on their actions as of now, I wonder if they even care if anyone buys their actions for awhile?
And I am SO GLAD, I did not get rid of the 700 Ultra mag actions I have....
Cheap, clunky...but they work
I know nothing about business but would it have been worse to just stop taking orders for a while instead of jacking up prices so much it decreases orders? If increasing prices like this was their plan for slowing business (while still having some business) it seems like a bad approach when it ruins public opinion of their company.
The re-sellers are probably still paying 2021 prices for the actions they are receiving. If Defiance is 15 months behind on production, the resellers won't be paying the new price for their actions until March 2024.
Wow, I was hoping to do a tenacity build next year. I’ve always felt tenacity was a good budget “buy with confidence” action. But at those prices….. might have to look elsewhere. Or even start looking into BAT machine
Makes sense. Pricing should have increased way before a 15 month wait time.
Incorrect, unless the resellers were able to get a contract locking in prices, which is highly unlikely. In any business that relies on raw materials traded and sold like commodities the manufacturers will adjust pricing on the fly. If and when it is your turn if the prices are up due to material costs you will pay the new price or forfeit your order to the next company or entity in line. The manufacturers adj the pricing to compensate for the costs of materials on their resupply to build the next run.
Another reason to buy another action from a competitor. At Defiance's price point, it offers nothing that other cheaper, well-supported actions already have. I predict a downfall in 12-24 months.
In my mind, the only way this price increase makes sense is if it is solely for actions purchased direct from Defiance.
If I came into a company and saw that they had a high demand (15+ month wait), and saw how many skus Defiance offers, I’d want to streamline. Pump out the highest demand configurations to retailers. If individuals still want the occasional wonky one-off configuration, make them pay a premium.
If these prices are truly street price, they won’t survive.
If I came into a company and saw that they had a high demand (15+ month wait), and saw how many skus Defiance offers, I’d want to streamline. Pump out the highest demand configurations to retailers. If individuals still want the occasional wonky one-off configuration, make them pay a premium.
If these prices are truly street price, they won’t survive.
On the upside, this will certainly reduce lead times~
For now, yes. But with a market that now has a lot of action manufacturers and options that level of demand isn't going to last forever anyway. Like @NiteQwill said, in 12-24 months then what.
Then what? A whole bunch of remedies if it doesnt work out. A simple price correction for example.
In a market that is full of homers, stans and nut hangers it might a bit more of a hard sell by turning off your fan base. The popularity contest sometimes is as important as the price.
I think they have short memories.
Seems pretty likely to me that their competitors are on the cusp of this same hike. Everyone will gripe for 15 minutes, then go back to buying.
The action is the cheapest part of a rifle you will buy. Everything will be switched out a couple times, maybe even triggers. With that being said, I would not be surprised if defiance is not arround in 3 years.
They were already on the decline. Despite growing the business, they were losing market share. 5+ years ago they owned the tactical and PRS market. Today, they have Impact, Lone Peak, Zermat and Terminus all eating their share. In their heyday the really only had to compete with Bighorn/zermat, Stiller doing its death throes and some small shops like Bat/borden/kelby.
Now the brains behind the company sell out to a "media personality"/gun conglomerate. We saw something similar happen with Surgeon and after Tate left, what did they become? They haven't come out with a new product in like 10 years and they are now irrelevant, when they owned the tactical and prs market back in the day.
Add the price hike and its a clear money grab. Now I don't know if the long wait times are due to production chokeholds or actual insane demand, but I would expect people cancelling their orders and pivoting to a Better, Cheaper and Faster to get product. GAP is already building a ton of guns on non Definace actions, which the templar and gladius is.
Definace really fucked up by being late to the prefit game. Surgeons from 10+ years ago were built accrate enough to use prefits before they were even a thing in this market. It was what? like 2 years ago they finally came out with the Tenacity and Ruckus that can use prefits? Little late to the party. I don't know why anyone who is shopping for a new action would not go with Impact, Lone peak or terminus. Much better designed actions, more reliable, cheaper and much easier to get.
This pattern is predictable. That is why we called out their demise as soon as they announced the sale. Who is going to continue to invoate the product? Who is going to ensure quality does not suffer because its their baby? The new owners need an ROI and they aren't going to get it by giving everyone a great value.
Its a shame too, the tencacity was IMO the best of the budget actions. Now they are more expensive than all the competitors premium actions....
They were already on the decline. Despite growing the business, they were losing market share. 5+ years ago they owned the tactical and PRS market. Today, they have Impact, Lone Peak, Zermat and Terminus all eating their share. In their heyday the really only had to compete with Bighorn/zermat, Stiller doing its death throes and some small shops like Bat/borden/kelby.
Now the brains behind the company sell out to a "media personality"/gun conglomerate. We saw something similar happen with Surgeon and after Tate left, what did they become? They haven't come out with a new product in like 10 years and they are now irrelevant, when they owned the tactical and prs market back in the day.
Add the price hike and its a clear money grab. Now I don't know if the long wait times are due to production chokeholds or actual insane demand, but I would expect people cancelling their orders and pivoting to a Better, Cheaper and Faster to get product. GAP is already building a ton of guns on non Definace actions, which the templar and gladius is.
Definace really fucked up by being late to the prefit game. Surgeons from 10+ years ago were built accrate enough to use prefits before they were even a thing in this market. It was what? like 2 years ago they finally came out with the Tenacity and Ruckus that can use prefits? Little late to the party. I don't know why anyone who is shopping for a new action would not go with Impact, Lone peak or terminus. Much better designed actions, more reliable, cheaper and much easier to get.
This pattern is predictable. That is why we called out their demise as soon as they announced the sale. Who is going to continue to invoate the product? Who is going to ensure quality does not suffer because its their baby? The new owners need an ROI and they aren't going to get it by giving everyone a great value.
Its a shame too, the tencacity was IMO the best of the budget actions. Now they are more expensive than all the competitors premium actions....
I think your argument only works if you’re thinking of the entire shooting world as a PRS match. One look at Defiance Machine’s menu and it’s obvious that they make a whole bunch of actions that aren’t necessarily PRS related, and that doesn’t include all the variations they make for other companies to brand. Bat Machine has been existing in this space for a couple of decades, and at at a price point will above everyone else. Im not happy about the price increase, but all this hand wringing is anecdotal bullshit.
IMO if they have a 15 month lead time. They aren’t charging enough.
Right. If primers were still $30-40 / 1K, we wouldn't be finding them on the shelves at Cabela's. Prices needed to rise to curb demand.
BAT is a rounding error compared to the bigger companies. They are a small boutique. The tactical market is not what it used to be with good factory rifles now. Most LE agencies are running an AI or similar factory gun, not a custom that requires a gunsmith to do basic maintenance like changing a barrel. End users do not want to have to pay a gunsmith for the pleasure of fitting a barrel and wait months when they can have a preft to their door in 3 days.
The ATF used to put out production numbers for manufactures per year. May be able to parse some of that data for defiance.
Or, they aren’t building enough of what’s in demand.
That depends on how Defiance approaches fulfillment. For instance when KAC raised prices this year they had over 12 months of outstanding backorders - dealers were presented the option to continue waiting and pay the new price upon fulfillment or cancel.
I already gave up on an AntiX for a 6.5 PRC build and ordered an Impact NBK. Now I’m worried I should cut my losses on the Deviant Tactical for a .338 LM build I’ve been waiting 7+ months for.
I’m not opposed to the company sale, but more transparency on the actual logistics of doing business would be nice.
I’m not opposed to the company sale, but more transparency on the actual logistics of doing business would be nice.
If bat is a rounding error, throw impact, terminus, and curtis in there as well. Dont know what the prefit argument has to do with this. Definace is on that boat with everyone else.
Did you actually read? They were late. While impact and bighorn/zermat was stealing their market share with zero gunsmith time, lone peak and terminus came along. He'll even ARC with their shitty savage standard was there. It wasn't until about 2 years ago that defiance even made actions accurate and repeatable enough to use prefits. Surgeon was doing it 15 years ago and were not even trying to. They were late to the party and most people have moved on. Like surgeon people will continue to buy their shit based on reputation as they fade away.
The dumbest take by anyone on the internet today.
Edit: I guess its early on my side of the country, you could outdo yourself.
Please expound on this.
Lol at the risk of sounding like those “back in my day” boomers, I bought a leftover Gen 1 Tenacity from Area 419 for $650 in April 2020.
But… anyone that didn’t see this sellout coming doesn’t understand basic business.
Guess we’ll have to adjust our responses in those WhiCH AcTiON To BuY threads to “anything but Defiance.”
But… anyone that didn’t see this sellout coming doesn’t understand basic business.
Guess we’ll have to adjust our responses in those WhiCH AcTiON To BuY threads to “anything but Defiance.”
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Why does Mike R use Surgeons for his build then? They can't be that bad if he uses them.
You’ve done better than the stock market if you sell it now!Lol at the risk of sounding like those “back in my day” boomers, I bought a leftover Gen 1 Tenacity from Area 419 for $650 in April 2020.
But… anyone that didn’t see this sellout coming doesn’t understand basic business.
Guess we’ll have to adjust our responses in those WhiCH AcTiON To BuY threads to “anything but Defiance.”
His main receiver has been the Rem 700….
The beginning doesnt matter as much.
Its what he does to it.
Hell, he built a savage once.
At those prices people are just going to buy a BAT if there willing to pay that kind of money. Gonna price themself right out of the market
The price of steel is irrelevant in an action. The cost of labor, machining, tooling, QA/QC and regulatory compliance is where the money goes.
Yes. But all the other actions have remained the same price.
So which action to buy for hunting now?!? LOL.Lol at the risk of sounding like those “back in my day” boomers, I bought a leftover Gen 1 Tenacity from Area 419 for $650 in April 2020.
But… anyone that didn’t see this sellout coming doesn’t understand basic business.
Guess we’ll have to adjust our responses in those WhiCH AcTiON To BuY threads to “anything but Defiance.”
I’d take a hand fit barrel over a prefit any day of the week.
Someone who doesn't shoot enough to burn up barrels.
They aren't bad actions at all. Very comparable to any other top tier action.
They just aren't the new hotness.
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