- Thread starter Ape_Factory
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But not only is it heavy but costs a lot . It’s what all the cool kids have .
Do you know the MSRP on it by chance? Not that it'll matter, it'll come in well over MSRP for the foreseeable future I'm sure. But still...a nine plus pound gun. The POF Revolution piston is a full 2 pounds lighter. Nuts.
I'd consider the 277 Fury for the velocity out of a shorter barrel but your'e still not saving much weight and are basically stuck with Sig barrels. I have a Spear LT in 300 blackout and a five minute barrel swap is useless if you can't find barrels or bolts. I'd like to meet the person officially in charge of "Sig Fuckery".
I'd consider the 277 Fury for the velocity out of a shorter barrel but your'e still not saving much weight and are basically stuck with Sig barrels. I have a Spear LT in 300 blackout and a five minute barrel swap is useless if you can't find barrels or bolts. I'd like to meet the person officially in charge of "Sig Fuckery".
zero interest, another stupid gov decision
Maybe you should buy one. They will be collectable when this project flops and the military realizes its mistake.
- Nov 3, 2010
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That’s what I thought about the Scar16 when it came to the civy market late 08,early 09.
New sig is out in "308" with a 6.5C and 277 Fury to follow but man it's a heavyweight. Over 9 pounds with a 16" barrel and not much lighter with a 13" barrel.
Meh...
I like the concept but I gotta pass on that. I would consider the spear LT for 2500, but not the large frame for almost double.
I'd recommend getting 2. When they discontinue parts 6 months after the release, you will have spares.
You do realize that the extra velocity from the shorter barrel comes from the hybrid 80,000 PSI case?
You're not going to get much different than 270-08 (277-08 if you prefer) from the all brass cartridge.
The civilian market may never see the hybrid case.
What you would get is a more efficient .270 Win in a medium length action, hamstrung by overall case length that will fit in a standard magazine. That or a hybrid receiver length and all that goes with that program.
Wait, isn't that where we're at now?
The Sig 277 Fury hybrid ammo is already out for the civilian market.
I'd like to know where. Really not being a butt. I'll call and hear out of stock, a lot.
It was available directly from Sig until it sold out. If you want some today, here ya go: Gun Broker (not me)
Interesting read.
:quality(70)/cloudfront-us-east-1.images.arcpublishing.com/archetype/QLLRGNTGDJHGJEHT2YUCNCHCOE.jpg)
www.armytimes.com
The not-really Next Generation Weapons Program
The author disputes the reliability of the Army's newest rifle and light machine gun.
www.armytimes.com Pretty poor read, I thought. His evidence and conclusions aren’t very well supported. But I don’t expect much from an Australian, when analyzing firearms.Interesting read.
The not-really Next Generation Weapons Program
The author disputes the reliability of the Army's newest rifle and light machine gun.
But that civilian SPEAR is certainly an extremely overpriced porker. No thanks. I am interested in the upcoming Steyr DMR though. Easily swappable barrels/chamberings, 6.5lbs, and supposedly good precision.
Any one here saying its a turd (porker)actually shot one?
Its a Sig USA rifle, 99.9% chance its a turd.
Porker means heavy. 9.2lbs for a 16” carbine without any accessories is heavy.
Hell, my 16” 6.5CM AR10 build with virtually no lightweight parts comes in at ~7.5 lbs.
In a combat setting, the 13” with silencer may be worth the weight for a few members of a squad. I’m not a neighsayer of the future M7 until we have field reports. But the weight/capabilities ratio doesn’t fit my personal CONOPS. …and the civilian one is waaay overpriced. They need to chop like $1k off the price. And it still wouldn’t be a cheap option.
I’m much more interested in seeing how the M250 is going to go. Which is lighter than the M249 and better performance than the M240.
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I my point is I think people are trashing it but haven’t even shot one.
I have a 8.6lbs Ar-308 that feels lighter than my 7.4 lbs one because of balance, 7.4 is a piston gun with a heavier profile barrel . Yea it 9 lbs. but how does that weight balance.
Yeah, I agree 12 pound machine guns pretty badass
Given that it’s a piston gun with no buffer system behind the receiver, I’m presuming the balance is terrible. Just like the MCX Virtus, but more imbalanced.
I haven’t, but there’s no way it’s balanced. Objectively.
Subjectively, maybe someone likes that. But it isn’t going to feel lighter due to a perfect balance. That’s not what the MCX does.
So I gain 170 fps over my 150gr game king in 270 Win @ crazy pressures?
Well okay I get it in a 2.7" over all length.
Then my 147gr .308 is 2800 fps 5" MPBR is 270 yards
And the 277 is 3120 advertised? 5" MPBR is 302 yards. Well finally, a real noticeable increase.
It stays supersonic well past 1000 yards, Another plus for the new kid. (1300 depending on what tea leaves you're reading)
I guess the better BC of a .277 projectile would decrease windage adjustments.
But we're talking about apples to apples here so, for 308
My FAL is 9.75 pounds with a 21" medium contour barrel
My DPMS pattern ..308 is 9.8 pounds with a standard 20" barrel
The sig is 9.2 pounds with whatever
So 11 ounces lighter than my FAL to shoot the same 150gr 7.62x51 that I feed my FAL for an MSRP of $4399?
color me unimpressed.
Well okay I get it in a 2.7" over all length.
Then my 147gr .308 is 2800 fps 5" MPBR is 270 yards
And the 277 is 3120 advertised? 5" MPBR is 302 yards. Well finally, a real noticeable increase.
It stays supersonic well past 1000 yards, Another plus for the new kid. (1300 depending on what tea leaves you're reading)
I guess the better BC of a .277 projectile would decrease windage adjustments.
But we're talking about apples to apples here so, for 308
My FAL is 9.75 pounds with a 21" medium contour barrel
My DPMS pattern ..308 is 9.8 pounds with a standard 20" barrel
The sig is 9.2 pounds with whatever
So 11 ounces lighter than my FAL to shoot the same 150gr 7.62x51 that I feed my FAL for an MSRP of $4399?
color me unimpressed.
They didn't design it for people to shoot 308 out of it and they probably couldn't care less about civilian sales when they have a contract with uncle Sam.
I understand they designed it to defeat LIV armor, yeah maybe that is what some squads need but I think the 6.8 SPC would have been better for most and yes they made bullets/ammo to defeat LIV armor too just not at the distance that the 277 Fury does.
ETA "SPC"
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Came to post this. I think the lt version for the military has a bunch of titanium parts in it not found in the civi version.
No that I’m tracking. The 13” version is ~8.4lbs without silencer. The silencer is nearly 1.5 lbs, so it’s not super light either. But I’m sure it can handle full auto fire schedules, so that’s expected.
Maybe the M250 has titanium parts to reduce weight. It is ~3.5lbs lighter than the M249, so it’s certainly plausible. But I’m not sure.
The M240L has a titanium receiver and sheds some good weight off the M240B.
The SPEAR LT is a small frame gun, 5.56/300blk. It saves weight over the MCX Virtus with a thinner handguard and thinner barrel profile. It’s not lighter because of titanium parts. But the SPEAR LT is not getting issued in the military in any significant quantities, if at all.
I’m aware that it is a small frame. 5 minutes in he talks about steel being replaced with titanium in mil guns.
Okay. So the SPEAR LT, completely different gun than the M7, under the SOCOM contract may get titanium parts. Those 1k or so in SMU arms rooms. But the big Army M7 isn’t getting that in the full size SPEAR.
A fool and his money are soon parted.
If I'm paying for AI accuracy in a production gun I actually want AI accuracy. Tell me how this factory gun groups with factory ammunition, and I will tell you what it's worth, period. It is going to have to be pretty amazing for a gas gun to merit a price even close to what they're asking...
If I'm paying for AI accuracy in a production gun I actually want AI accuracy. Tell me how this factory gun groups with factory ammunition, and I will tell you what it's worth, period. It is going to have to be pretty amazing for a gas gun to merit a price even close to what they're asking...
Military accuracy requirements aren't that tight and they weren't designed to be a PRS rifle. So yeah I agree, anyone buying one to shoot PRS is a fool.
So, yea, if it doesn't have more precision or functions with the receiver full of frozen mud, you're paying three times what a comparable gun should cost...for what? Because for me functionality and that it goes bang every time (even when clean) is just a given. Why, exactly, is this rifle three times the price of a precision, fully billet-milled AR10 with a top of the line match barrel? Just trying to see where all this value is in a functional battle tool. What is it doing that any other battle rifle can't at 1/3 the price. If it's worth it to you because it looks Kewl and it's "Mil Spec" that's an answer, but so far I haven't even gotten that.
Because uncle Sam, which means you and I are paying for them. Sig more than likely can't or hasn't yet filled the contract but if civilians out there want to pay the price then they will pay the price. I will not buy one but I guess our govt thinks they are worth whatever the contract price is or Sig is handing out incentives under the table.
Remind me why I would want this instead of an SR-25, other then it makes a better club.
Grandpa didn’t have body armor, and numerous types of batteries, and radios, and ATAK, and DF/EW equipment, and nods, and …
But also, big heavy guns like the Garand are just not necessary when they don’t have to be so big and heavy.
Folding? That’s about it.
I’m actually really pretty excited about bi-metal cartridges and bumping up the pressure/velocity in shorter barrel guns. If not with the 277 fury, then with the potential with existing cartridges like 5.56 or 6 ARC. There are some interesting possibilities. And I would love to make some bi-metal 5.56 shooting 80 grainers for the 600 yard line at Perry before everyone else.
But the SPEAR/M7 itself is a lot less interesting. And they’re not even seemingly releasing the 16” version in 277 yet.
I was "light Infantry" so I know all about 60+ lbs of lightweight highspeed stuff. That was weak attempt at humor, sorry.
And I had the misfortune of carry a M14 for a few days in Ranger school (long ago, Last Hard Class) before SAW was fielded and I wanted my M16 back as quick as possible. 7.62 systems are just heavy.
Grandpa didn’t even have a ruck. They carried Haversacks or tanker’s rolls attached to armored vehicles and trucks back then in the ETO. It still sucked to be on a gun team due to ammo cans and tripods, but Joe Rifleman had a relatively light load even by Vietnam standards.
WWII with 88-164rds M2 .30 Cal Rifle (.30-06) in En Block clips in belt pouches augmented with bandoliers, each bandolier carrying 6x8 rounds (48-not shown). The GP ammo pouch at the bottom left could carry extra ammo as well. BAR gunners had their own pouches and belts for the 20rd mags to feed it.
I guess you missed my "it was a joke" thing.Grandpa didn’t even have a ruck. They carried Haversacks or tanker’s rolls attached to armored vehicles and trucks back then in the ETO. It still sucked to be on a gun team due to ammo cans and tripods, but Joe Rifleman had a relatively light load even by Vietnam standards.
WWII with 88-164rds M2 .30 Cal Rifle (.30-06) in En Block clips in belt pouches augmented with bandoliers, each bandolier carrying 6x8 rounds (48-not shown). The GP ammo pouch at the bottom left could carry extra ammo as well. BAR gunners had their own pouches and belts for the 20rd mags to feed it.
Roger that. The most interesting things about NGSW are the LMG, the rifle used as a DMR/SASS, and the cartridge technology applied to smaller firearms.
Within an Infantry Company, here are all the duty positions that are going to look at the XM7 and say, “What the......"
Company HQ
CO
1SG
XO
Drivers
RTOs
Supply Sergeant
Supply Clerk
Commo NCO
Commo Specialist
(Attachments)
Fire Support NCO
USAF JTAC (will have some pimped-out SOPMOD Block 3 Mk.18 in FDE with 10.3” pipe)
Engineer NCO
3x Rifle Platoons
Rifle Platoon Leader (PL)
PSG
Combat Medic
PLT RTO
Forward Observers
Drone Operator
Combat Engineer
Rifle Squads x3
Rifle Squad Leader
Fire Team Leader
Grenadier
SAW Gunners will get M250 and be happy with the massive weight reduction, insane terminal performance through barriers
Rifleman will think, “This is cool and new!” Then when he’s handed cross-loaded items, he will embrace more suck.
Weapons Squad
Weapons Squad Leader
Machinegunners will love getting a flatter-shooting cartridge but will wonder about barrel change rates
Assistant Gunner (wants an even lighter M4A1 he will rarely/never shoot)
Ammo Bearer (Why is this happening to me?)
Anti-Armor Weapons Specialist (already has more than enough to carry)
Mortar Platoon
MTR PSG (Lights cigarette...."Aright gents, arms room time....he he he....you’re gettin’ ready to suck again even more.”)
MTR Team Leader (“Guys, time to draw....weapons.”)
Mortarmen (“NOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!”)
The Company Commanders will not want to issue out the XM157 Integrated Fire Control and Laser-Aiming/IR Illuminating systems due to the $10,800 statement of charges price on each one (2022 dollars), except for maybe a few NCOs.
Can you imagine? “Sir, PFC Akbar-Jones just lost one of dem -157s. We’ve already stripped the soldiers down and began sweeping the forest on-line."
Captain: “My......beautiful, precious career......iz gone. RTO, gimme the hand mic....."
"Rakkasan 6 actual, this is Bravo 6 Actual.....uhhhh, we lost a -157......"
BC: “Aghhhhhhhhh!!!!! My beautiful, precious career. Checks skin color. Agggghhhhhhhhh!!!!!!"
Brigade Commander: “LTC Slack Jaw, Are you ready for your Letter of Reprimand?"
A few hours later, as the Engineers string up the triple-strand concertina wire around the Company and place guards on them, a dark cloud emerges from nowhere and hovers over that Company until the XM157 Electro-Optical Aiming Module Fire Control Widget is located, which it won’t be, because it was sold to a stripper acting as an agent for Chinese and Russian foreign materials collection and exploitation operatives who have been running the local strip joints for years.
Or maybe it all be ok? We’ll see.
If they had applied that cartridge technology to the KAC PDW, with EPR projectiles available, that would be the real ticket.
Imagine everyone I listed above now possessing a weapon with superior terminal ballistics to 20” 5.56, from something smaller than a Mk.18...
Basically a 6mm Fireball.
Purge 7.62 NATO from the system as it’s replaced with DM/SASS weapons with an intermediate version of the hybrid case with high BC projectiles that have some weight to them in .257” bore.
Imagine everyone I listed above now possessing a weapon with superior terminal ballistics to 20” 5.56, from something smaller than a Mk.18...
Basically a 6mm Fireball.
Purge 7.62 NATO from the system as it’s replaced with DM/SASS weapons with an intermediate version of the hybrid case with high BC projectiles that have some weight to them in .257” bore.
Your comments on the insane pricing of Infantry gear and then no one wanting to take them out is spot on. I started in 1981 when any night vision was expensive. I remember distinctly in Ranger school when a student did a tree landing with ruck trapped in top of tree - RO was F it, you can pay for it all until he found out there was an ancient set of NODs. As a young Infantry Platoon Leader at 7th ID(L), I saw most of an Infantry Division stay in the field for an extra week looking for a lost (aka stolen) M16 (thief confessed). Later as optics became available, I saw all forms of Infantry optics relegated to arms room as no one wanted them lost, damaged, etc.
My first thought reading about the new Fire Control widget was to head to pawn shop outside gates of FT Benning/FT Stewart near end of month for a "deal".
My first thought reading about the new Fire Control widget was to head to pawn shop outside gates of FT Benning/FT Stewart near end of month for a "deal".
Not sure if serious...
Been there done that for multiple decades - saw careers ended for lost bayonets much less really cool stuff.
We went from drawing out M16A1s and then A2s plus a bayonet on weapons cards out of the Arms Room in the early 1990s, to drawing out:
M4/M4A1 depending on unit (all equipped with KAC rails)
CCO (itemized on multi-line sensitive items card)
PAQ-4 or PEQ-2, then later PEQ-15
PVS-7Bs, then -7Ds, then PVS-14s
KAC BUIS and detachable carry handles strewn about in Joes’ rooms, along with rail panels, VFGs, etc.
Weapons Squad went from M60 and Tripod + T&E to
M240B
MGO (Elcan M145)
PEQ-2
Javelin Gunner probably had the most expensive item with the CLU.
Since M4A1 PIP and all the other ancillary items, they’ve gone through several different phases of sensitive items accountable for with some type of signature.
We ended up with huge master list cards for the Platoon and Squads we had to monitor as Key Leaders.
I think it was around 2011 when they started putting QR codes on everything.
XM7/XM157 simplifies the sensitive item list by integrating the LPVO, LRF, ballistics computer, and PEQ-15 features Into one unit, which makes accountability much easier, but more risky from a cost perspective.
Does Soldier Lethality CFT have a suggestion box? Asking for a friend.
"Alright gentlefolk, we’re instituting a new Cross Functional Team program, and we’re labeling it with EXCELLENCE, so that’s what it is."
“Roger that senior manager! Hooah!” (Don’t misgender with “sir”.)
