I’d like to know why a Euro spec 6-36 has 17.74% more FOV than the US spec and then I’d like a 17.74% refund.
Rifle Scopes New Schmidt & Bender PM2 6-36x56
- Thread starter Just Macca
- Start date
Some 3-18x hunting scope that someone mentioned above also has differing US/Euro FOV number as well.Took a look at S&B website at the newer/updated models, 6-36, 5-20, 5-25 and 10-60.
Only the 6-36 and 10-60 has different FOV numbers specified for the US models, these are completely new designs compared to the other two. Seems like they are designing US specific models of the new scopes
Again, really curios as to why..
Producing two different models of the same scope must be resource demanding and again, makes no sense..
Like asked above, how do they technically alter the FOV on an otherwise identical scope?
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Maybe they just swap out some lens element for a cheaper one lol
#FOVGATE
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This lol. I'd be up in arms. Considering we're paying the same shit for something neutered. I'm trying to get Jerry on the phone to see what's up.
Make it a 17.76% refund. This is America after all!
Possibly a different eyepiece? Maybe they stole the design from USA and are worried about US Patent laws
Seriously though, it will be interesting to find out what the official word is on why and how so enough speculating, hopefully we can get some real answers on this soon. Not only that but did you buy before the big price drop a few weeks ago, even worse for them.
#FOVGATE
This just in:
Ok, just a little parody. Obviously. But ha!
Due to Brexit punishing the British Pound, Accuracy International has decided to import only Savage-based AI chassis rifles into the U.S.
Sources report that the retail price will stay the same.
Ok, just a little parody. Obviously. But ha!
FOV is determined by 2 factors, assuming the image is always in focus:
height of the sensor
and focal length.
per this trig formula:
AFOV = 2 * arctan (height of sensor / 2*focal length) ... yielding a number in degrees or miliradians. Run angle thru trig using 100m or 100yds to find the resulting image dimension. This number is unit-less (not sensistive to metrics vs imperial)
Is the lenght of the US scope different than ROW? Is the eye lens different on the US scope vs ROW?
Additionally, does the US DoD have some F'ed up definition of FOV? Maybe they - US DoD - using some different math function to calculate?
This is very simple optical math - and no way is S&B messing this calculation up... no way could be designing optical systems for 75yrs...
height of the sensor
and focal length.
per this trig formula:
AFOV = 2 * arctan (height of sensor / 2*focal length) ... yielding a number in degrees or miliradians. Run angle thru trig using 100m or 100yds to find the resulting image dimension. This number is unit-less (not sensistive to metrics vs imperial)
Is the lenght of the US scope different than ROW? Is the eye lens different on the US scope vs ROW?
Additionally, does the US DoD have some F'ed up definition of FOV? Maybe they - US DoD - using some different math function to calculate?
This is very simple optical math - and no way is S&B messing this calculation up... no way could be designing optical systems for 75yrs...
Dimensions are not listed in Euro and US - one spec only. They’re in metric and customary units, but that’s neither here nor there.
Daddy didn’t raise no fool.
Would be VERY curious to put one of our Aussie/EU 6-36,s up against the "US" version and compare!!
Such such a pity if its anything more than just a "FOV" change..as the 6-36 is the finest optic i have , and used .........and thats from March, TT , ZCO , Ziess , Kahles ,NF
The only top end high power i haven't looked through at this point is the new TT 7-35...
Such such a pity if its anything more than just a "FOV" change..as the 6-36 is the finest optic i have , and used .........and thats from March, TT , ZCO , Ziess , Kahles ,NF
The only top end high power i haven't looked through at this point is the new TT 7-35...
I’m confused as to why no one can convert meters to feet?
Well you see it’s only us guys from Europe can see that well… Everybody else is kind of hosed…
you should be fine…
This just in (Babylon Bee Style):
Biebertal, Germany - Schmidt & Bender finally delivers first 6-36x56 scopes with great praise from early adopters.
"I think this may actually beat out my Tangent Theta in resolution, edge to edge sharpness and FOV" said Australian rapper WooferOC. After initial findings from the Australian group Shooters, Hunters and Importers of Tactical Scopes (aka SHITS) interest from USA shooters grew disproportionately large. "I literally threw away my TT's and ZCO's in anticipation of this scope" said Iditarod champion Husky Driver.
To put icing on the cake Schmidt & Bender quietly lowered their prices of all scopes in the USA and found stock prices soaring to new heights. But in his surprise hit single 'What The FOV' WooferOC reminded the US community that Schmidt neutered the 6-36x56 FOV for the USA market. Self proclaimed folk singer TheOE (pronounced Thee-OH) responded with his own hit single 'FOV, FOV, FOV' (to the tune of Zach Bryans song 'Burn, Burn, Burn') where he lyrically laments his early adoption of the castrated USA Schmidt & Bender scope.
"I'm not sure who's behind this," said OLM (Optics Lives Matter) founder DLO "but it's going to be a scorched earth campaign to find out!" DLO shouted from his bull horn while leading a march of protestors outside of Eurooptic headquarters in Muncy, PA Thursday afternoon.
In Wallstreet today, Schmidt & Bender stock plummeted to new lows as thousands of mostly peaceful protestors were seen burning scopes just outside the capital. Biden's DOJ has promised to investigate the matter and use the fully armed IRS, if they have to, in order to get to the bottom of what New York Times editor in chief - Carbon Based has declared as FOVgate.
Sorry guys, this is not the norm for me, but I just couldn't resist
To get FOV measured in meters @ 100m convert the meter value to feet and divide by 1.093 to get feet at 100yds
SH members converting units also be like
Perhaps the narrower FOV for the US market isn't actually a scope issue, but rather an end user issue-- because S&B is aware that here in the USA we shooters are all a bunch of narrow minded, poorly educated neanderthals with myopic viewpoints.
Imagine the horror of having a European model 6-36 with the wider FOV and while lining up on the target you catch a glance of a discarded Dylan Mulvaney Bud Light can sitting on the berm to the far left of the target, whereas that offensive can would simply not be visible through the US market scope because of the narrower FOV.
S&B being an erudite and sophisticated German company understands the needs and sensitivities of their US customers and doesn't want to risk the wider European spec FOV exposing US customers to something beyond their narrow comfort zone (and then have to deal with the inevitable angry phone calls about missed shots and ruined range days)-- so they have reduced the FOV of their US market optics accordingly.
Maybe it's just something as simple as advertising calculated theoretical FOV vs actual observed FOV because of different advertising requirements for the US vs euro/international markets... But it's still weird and doesn't make good financial or inventory sense that they would be making 2 versions of every scope; but then again, Aussie customers get different anti tamper battery caps on their S&B scopes because there's a law down under that says anything with a coin type battery has to meet several safety requirements to keep kids from eating them. (I know they feed kids marmite down there, but feeding them 2032 batteries is pretty ridiculous.)
I don't see any other European scope manufacturers listing different/smaller FOV numbers for their US market scopes.
Because base 10 units of measure are confusing, that's why. Here in the USA we like using easy to comprehend comparative patriotic measurements like "the FOV on this scope is 1/643rd Rhode Islands wide at a distance of 31 Walmart shopping carts away."
It's not just a unit conversion issue, the 3-18 x 42 specs list the field of view in degrees, and it's narrower for the US spec. That could mean the scopes are the same but a different definition or method is being used to determine the 2 FOVs, or there are 2 different scopes with a real physical/optical difference between the international and US models.
Has anyone called S&B yet to ask what the deal is? Maybe the narrower FOV is a new US law requirement to ensure Epstein's client list remains just out of view...
Really want to hear back from Ilya on his findings.
Imagine the horror of having a European model 6-36 with the wider FOV and while lining up on the target you catch a glance of a discarded Dylan Mulvaney Bud Light can sitting on the berm to the far left of the target, whereas that offensive can would simply not be visible through the US market scope because of the narrower FOV.
S&B being an erudite and sophisticated German company understands the needs and sensitivities of their US customers and doesn't want to risk the wider European spec FOV exposing US customers to something beyond their narrow comfort zone (and then have to deal with the inevitable angry phone calls about missed shots and ruined range days)-- so they have reduced the FOV of their US market optics accordingly.
Maybe it's just something as simple as advertising calculated theoretical FOV vs actual observed FOV because of different advertising requirements for the US vs euro/international markets... But it's still weird and doesn't make good financial or inventory sense that they would be making 2 versions of every scope; but then again, Aussie customers get different anti tamper battery caps on their S&B scopes because there's a law down under that says anything with a coin type battery has to meet several safety requirements to keep kids from eating them. (I know they feed kids marmite down there, but feeding them 2032 batteries is pretty ridiculous.)
I don't see any other European scope manufacturers listing different/smaller FOV numbers for their US market scopes.
Because base 10 units of measure are confusing, that's why. Here in the USA we like using easy to comprehend comparative patriotic measurements like "the FOV on this scope is 1/643rd Rhode Islands wide at a distance of 31 Walmart shopping carts away."
It's not just a unit conversion issue, the 3-18 x 42 specs list the field of view in degrees, and it's narrower for the US spec. That could mean the scopes are the same but a different definition or method is being used to determine the 2 FOVs, or there are 2 different scopes with a real physical/optical difference between the international and US models.
Has anyone called S&B yet to ask what the deal is? Maybe the narrower FOV is a new US law requirement to ensure Epstein's client list remains just out of view...
Really want to hear back from Ilya on his findings.
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I would too, I'll PM you my address and you can ship me your Aussie 6-36x56 and I'll compare to @GBMaryland 's copy and we'll let you know, but don't be surprised if the USA copy is the one shipped back to you
In all seriousness, I used to buy Schmidt scopes from Optics-trade when prices were going crazy before the price drop around 2016, but I thought I heard rumors that Schmidt put a kabush on this a few years back and won't allow scopes to be sold to the USA from European dealers, why is that?
The only thing that makes sense to me is that the American version of this scope uses what some manufacturers refer to as a "field stop" in the objective bell. A field stop is a flat metal donut used to eliminate the outer edges of an image because there is a fall-off in image quality (chromatic aberration, resolution, etc). This is done to prevent criticism of image quality out near the edges of the field of view, but comes at the expense of a narrower field of view. When we speak of "tunneling", it's usually because a field stop is edging into view. Since this is a premium product, S&B probably wants only the highest image quality shown in the US. Unfortunately, they misunderstand how much we also value field of view. It is impossible to have it both ways without signficantly increasing the price of the scope.
Perhaps the narrower FOV for the US market isn't actually a scope issue, but rather an end user issue-- because S&B is aware that here in the USA we shooters are all a bunch of narrow minded, poorly educated neanderthals with myopic viewpoints.
Imagine the horror of having a European model 6-36 with the wider FOV and while lining up on the target you catch a glance at a discarded Dylan Mulvaney Bud Light can sitting on the berm to the far left of the target, whereas that offensive can would simply not be visible through the US market scope because of the narrower FOV.
S&B being an erudite and sophisticated German company understands the needs and sensitivities of their US customers and doesn't want to risk the wider European spec FOV exposing US customers to something beyond their narrow comfort zone (and then have to deal with the inevitable angry phone calls about missed shots and ruined range days)-- so they have reduced the FOV of their US market optics accordingly.
HAHAHAHAHAH
WAAHAHAHAHAHAH
I don’t think that awesome parody was ChatGPT-written and strongly prefer to believe that you created it of whole cloth.
Pretty fantastic!
Not sure that is the case as @wooferocau has mentioned his European FOV 6-36x56 bests his TT in edge to edge clarity IIRC...
Yeah, but it is always there and noticable from 20 upwards, even when I am on axis. It gets better in the center but it never goes away with mine.
That was of my own making, I don't even know what ChatGPT is other than knowing it is some kind of AI driven messaging thingy that has been programmed to give a Marxist response.
Well, I do know that all the German ones ship with a copy of the German national anthem….I would too, I'll PM you my address and you can ship me your Aussie 6-36x56 and I'll compare to @GBMaryland 's copy and we'll let you know, but don't be surprised if the USA copy is the one shipped back to you
Maybe that’s the penalty… You don’t get the right field of view if you don’t sing a German national anthem.
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I'm sure part of their dealer agreement now is not to ship outside of their assigned territory, for the exact reason you mentioned above. I'm sure US dealers were bitching to S&B about lost sales because you could order from optics trade and save 20%+.
S&B isn't the only manufacturer to have those kinds of dealer requirements and regional shipping restrictions in place; a while ago when a certain air rifle I wanted was very, very hard to get here in the US I found plenty in stock at several European dealers at a lower price than the US dealers, but they could not ship them to the US or Canada because of their dealer agreements with the manufacturer.
A possibility, but given the targeted price point of these things I have my doubts that S&B is trying to hide poor optical design and edge clarity by reducing FOV with a field stop / aperture ring. I could see that on a scope built to a cheaper price point with cheaper glass and a more compromised optical design, but not so much given the price of the 6-36... for what these cost there really shouldn't be too many design compromises. Maybe that's exactly what they did though, but we don't know for sure yet.
Hopefully Ilya can rattle some cages and get definitive info from his industry contacts.
I have deleted my (misplaced) parody of S&B as @koshkin has discovered that the likely culprit of #FOVgate is Swarovski.Perhaps the narrower FOV for the US market isn't actually a scope issue, but rather an end user issue-- because S&B is aware that here in the USA we shooters are all a bunch of narrow minded, poorly educated neanderthals with myopic viewpoints.
Imagine the horror of having a European model 6-36 with the wider FOV and while lining up on the target you catch a glance at a discarded Dylan Mulvaney Bud Light can sitting on the berm to the far left of the target, whereas that offensive can would simply not be visible through the US market scope because of the narrower FOV.
S&B being an erudite and sophisticated German company understands the needs and sensitivities of their US customers and doesn't want to risk the wider European spec FOV exposing US customers to something beyond their narrow comfort zone (and then have to deal with the inevitable angry phone calls about missed shots and ruined range days)-- so they have reduced the FOV of their US market optics accordingly.
Maybe it's just something as simple as advertising calculated theoretical FOV vs actual observed FOV because of different advertising requirements for the US vs euro/international markets... But it's still weird and doesn't make good financial or inventory sense that they would be making 2 versions of every scope; but then again, Aussie customers get different anti tamper battery caps on their S&B scopes because there's a law down under that says anything with a coin type battery has to meet several safety requirements to keep kids from eating them. (I know they feed kids marmite down there, but feeding them 2032 batteries is pretty ridiculous.)
I don't see any other European scope manufacturers listing different/smaller FOV numbers for their US market scopes.
Because base 10 units of measure are confusing, that's why. Here in the USA we like using easy to comprehend comparative patriotic measurements like "the FOV on this scope is 1/643rd Rhode Islands wide at a distance of 31 Walmart shopping carts away."
It's not just a unit conversion issue, the 3-18 x 42 specs list the field of view in degrees, and it's narrower for the US spec. That could mean the scopes are the same but a different definition or method is being used to determine the 2 FOVs, or there are 2 different scopes with a real physical/optical difference between the international and US models.
Has anyone called S&B yet to ask what the deal is? Maybe the narrower FOV is a new US law requirement to ensure Epstein's client list remains just out of view...
Really want to hear back from Ilya on his findings.
Here is the updated Swaro parody
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@carbonbased has it exactly right with the image he created..
He captured the average US gun buyer perfectly. Unlike European customers, we USA customers that never evolved past the pleistocene epoch retain our characteristic larger, prominent sloping australopithecine brows which protrude much further forward from our eyes, requiring the US market scopes be fitted with a smaller diameter ocular housing and lens to clear our skulls, which reduces the field of view.
He captured the average US gun buyer perfectly. Unlike European customers, we USA customers that never evolved past the pleistocene epoch retain our characteristic larger, prominent sloping australopithecine brows which protrude much further forward from our eyes, requiring the US market scopes be fitted with a smaller diameter ocular housing and lens to clear our skulls, which reduces the field of view.
On "Edge to Edge" clarity..... I have 4 samples here and they are all superb....so I don't think S&B are trying ti "Hide" anything in regards to outer edge clarity..
First, you see, that’s TRUE for all of you…. Except for me… who’s actually an übermensch… and the true reason as to why I can use either scope without a penalty.
Second, have you ever seen a Russian… and their brows? I’m surprised Schmidt doesn’t have a T-34 variant of the 6-36x56… made out of steel pipe from recently decommissioned nuclear reactors and plutonium salt glass from occupied Chernobyl!
Bahahahaaha…. You’re not Russian and I’m half German Jew!
I have no idea what they were thinking if they purposely neutered the scope. They had basically the king of optics right there with those EU FOV numbers.
It’s definitely strange… It does seem to be a good piece of glass though.
Wait . . . so this issue was discovered in March of 2022, and we still don't know why?
it may not exist at all. I have no idea why Schmidt didnt explain it at SHOT.
and the FOV was near ZCO level on the one i looked through. It reminded me of the first time i looked through a ZCO420 on my bud's gun at Colemans Creek.
But we need to wait for Ilya to get back with an answer.
I am going to do a livestream tonight at 8PM Mountain and one of the topics I want to cover is the S&B FOV issue.
For what it is worth the FOV on the US version is not narrow. It is just not as wide as in the rest of the world. The FOV is about the same as ZCO on the same configuration and I am beginning to wonder if that is the case for the same reason.
The S&B scope I have here is an exceptionally nice design and I do not think it is S&B's fault that they are forced to throttle the FOV for the US.
I am going to make some educated guesses in the livestream tonight. I'll keep digging in the meantime. If my guesses are incorrect, I will certainly issues a retraction.
ILya
For what it is worth the FOV on the US version is not narrow. It is just not as wide as in the rest of the world. The FOV is about the same as ZCO on the same configuration and I am beginning to wonder if that is the case for the same reason.
The S&B scope I have here is an exceptionally nice design and I do not think it is S&B's fault that they are forced to throttle the FOV for the US.
I am going to make some educated guesses in the livestream tonight. I'll keep digging in the meantime. If my guesses are incorrect, I will certainly issues a retraction.
ILya
We’ve been waiting for you to issue forth, man smh
I need us to start talking about how FOV isn’t a big deal so I can rationalize not having bought the best scope with my money.
If it wasn't for the pox that is ITAR...I would gladly send one across....really.
Being "forced" to reduce the FOV for the US market scopes sounds like an export, regulatory, or patent issue... Guess we'll hear more from you on the subject in about 45 minutes.
I suppose another question is why don't other European made scopes like kahles, minox, Zeiss, ZCO, etc, list different and narrower FOV specs for their scopes headed to the US...
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I'm interested to see what Ilya thinks, but my theory remains the presence of a field stop in the US model. I'd love to hear another theory from anyone else, though. Historically field stops are used to hide lower quality images found on the edges (this is in no way an accusation that this is what S&B is doing), but maybe S&B has another good reason for doing so. Regardless, I know of no other way to reduce FOV without a signifcant optical re-design that neither the US or Euro 6-36x appears to have. Other than FOV, they appear identical.
Wow. So thats the reason.
Un fucking believable.
Not even Schmidt's fault if thats the real reason.
Fuck Swarovski.
Un fucking believable.
Not even Schmidt's fault if thats the real reason.
Fuck Swarovski.
His theory is the same as yours. Field stop as a result of Swarovski filing a patent on a specification (blatant anticompetitive maneuver)
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