Just order 1,000 153.5s... I am moving back to 6.5CM for PRS.
- Thread starter Sportin Wood
- Start date
Got some 153 ATips loaded up for load testing for matches this year.
Early in My career I batched for Hercules . First on the industrial side later the commercial side temporarily , until a suitable replacement could be gotten and trained . As we all know some powders work better then others and it's not always due to the burn rate .
I've always preferred IMR ,yet Dupont no longer exists within the realm of explosives ,not since 1971 I believe . Other companies manufacturer powders to specifications based upon formulas . Some get it right and some are more interested in Production ,so variations happen .
The First time I bought smokeless powder for reloading , I paid just over $2.00 a lb. retail for IMR 4895 . Some time later I purchased powder via Bruce Hodgdon it came in a cardboard Tube via USPS right too My House . Old Vulcan ,aka H870 and I still have a little left . Funny when I read about people tossing powders after 1-10 years or ? . I've got an original can of IMR 4831 . Never been opened ,as I had picked up several of them over the years. Now I did have a partial keg of Red Dot that went south on Me ,after about 15 years but it's the ONLY powder which ever has .
Fyi : I used to purchase all manner of smokeless powders in Bulk as well as canister , liquidation sales acquisition take overs out of business sort of stuff . So some of my powders are OLD and some are NEW and as I reload for several calibers ( 18 ) plus 12 20 and 28 gauge I tend to have a variety of makes and #'s .
Awesome! I am still old school in many ways. I load 45 colt with Herco. Still have several lbs of it. Not sure if it is still sold. I see Herco has dropped from the listed powders for 45 colt. Maybe is still used for shot shells? I don’t load for those, so clueless lol
What powder are you going to try with thus bullet?
TRY? HA! H4350 better work as that is what I am stocked on. As I have read most found success with H4350 and the 153s/156s.
I have never found acceptable success at extremes. Max weight bullets just haven’t worked well for me. I prefer one or 2 steps down from max. For me, better accuracy, better consistency and overall better results. This from 30-06, 308, 224 valkyrie and now 6.5 cm. The great thing is no one rule rules them all lol Whatever works for you is what works for you
Best of luck to ye. May all your targets be bullseyed
Personally ; I've found Max loads less than helpful with accuracy as the intended goal . Perhaps 1.0 or 0.5 gr. underneath is nearly always ideal ,sometimes even less of a charge catches a suitable node . Powder consumption as in clean burn for efficiency generally produces GOOD results .
Fyi : Herco is still around and now as with other powder companies prices are way way too high . I suspect Price fixing from Major manufacturers is at play . Given all the open conflicts world wide ,doubtful manufacturers are experiencing a lull in production and therefore see NO earthly reason to keep prices competitive !. Especially suspect is Canada ,due to the extreme stupidity of elected officials ,not unlike our own !.
Fyi : Herco is still around and now as with other powder companies prices are way way too high . I suspect Price fixing from Major manufacturers is at play . Given all the open conflicts world wide ,doubtful manufacturers are experiencing a lull in production and therefore see NO earthly reason to keep prices competitive !. Especially suspect is Canada ,due to the extreme stupidity of elected officials ,not unlike our own !.
The problem with demand is it does drive prices higher. If the military will pay more, then commensurately us reloaders will have to pay more. I don’t like it but it’s either pay more or experience a total absence of availability as we have seen in the past. I fear we are headed back that way.
Glad to hear Herco is still in production. I just like that powder. I have used it experimentally in my 9 mil but it wasn’t great for that application lol. A bit too smoky and residue.
Need some input. I have Shot mostly factory ammo in my AIAT 24” 1:8 twist 6.5cm…but I would like to give reloading a go.
I have acquired all the equipment and feel the following is where I am gonna start…
Berger 140 ht, Lapua SRP, CCI450, H4350 … Five rounds each weight of 39.6-39.8-40.0-40.2-40.4-40.6-40.8
COAL 2.8” …CBTO 2.093+-
Thoughts?
I have acquired all the equipment and feel the following is where I am gonna start…
Berger 140 ht, Lapua SRP, CCI450, H4350 … Five rounds each weight of 39.6-39.8-40.0-40.2-40.4-40.6-40.8
COAL 2.8” …CBTO 2.093+-
Thoughts?
Save a few rounds and start at 39.8-40.6 that should get you what you need with 140s.
You don't say what your objective is; target, hunting, PRS or ? More detail would be good. The load range you list looks safe - similar to what I've done in my Bergara - 24", 8 twist. My goto load was 40.2 of H4350, CCI450,with 140gr Hornady ELD-M, CBTO - 2.280",running about 2642fps. My objective was target - a little F Class shooting.
Looks like a good, safe, place to start and tune for what you want. BTW I'm at 5100ft so elevation may play into that...your mileage may vary. Good luck.
Objective is to try PRS but will settle for hitting a 8"x12" plate at 1000+ yards at will
....My elevation is 910' home/ 958' Range that I can get to 1100yard distanceThank you for taking the time to respond, I do appreciate it.
I “think” I have …2.915. BUT that was using a Hornady modified 6.5 case and their tool and a Berger 140 hybrid bullet…each time I tried it like that it was within .20. If there is a better way to know or measure it I am all ears.
No that tool works fine but take a little finesse to use. You can't push super hard when checking. The reason i asked is that you were loading to 2.800" and if you have more room you can load longer.
I was using 2.8 as the coal because Berger and Hornady show that as max length…my pre-retired occupation was pure rules oriented
so I follow manuals as much as I canThat's the spec. Not the only way to load. A large majority of people loading do not use 2.800". Seating depth is something you can play around with for tuning a load also. My 140 ELD-M load is at 2.850" and .020" off lands. Just keep it in mind as you proceed.I was using 2.8 as the coal because Berger and Hornady show that as max length…my pre-retired occupation was pure rules oriented
Before the gauges came into play a surefire method was taking a older case ,then resizing it and checking chambering BEFORE cutting a slot in the neck of the case . Resize brass case place a bullet into brass ( just enough to secure it but out far enough it can slide into the neck ) . Carefull using a marking pen blacken the tip to the Ogive , let dry a minute apply a little wax or sizing lube on the bullet and case neck shoulder .
Carefully slide bullet into Your chamber close the bolt slowly ,be sure it's in Battery , now again carefully Extract your dummy round and Measure it .
It's a proven method for absolute accuracy ,as marking pen bullet will show lands and your absolute length can be measured with mic or calipers .
From that measurement backing off 0.020" or more should dial you CLOSE . I witnessed an accident when a fellow used Barnes only 0.05" off his lands ,copper bullets need to be 0.040" and More sometimes . If one is Not using copper bullets 0.02"- ??? is fair game . Can be dicey in Gas guns ,same as shoulder setback but that's another issue . Bol
Thank you. I will reread this while I’m at my reloading and see if I should give it a go…I want to say that I’ve seen someone on YouTube that did something like that too…maybe Erik Cortina…I will have to go check that too..thanks again for the info!
I still use both methods Hornady OAL gauge and split neck case , as I load some Non book loads and HAVE to know ,so as to avoid disaster .
Method can be used in Semi Auto or Bolt gun ,just have to take care closing and opening bolts . Wax or sizing lube eases withdraw and avoids leaving bullet in the lede or lands . Fyi : I still have a hardwood dowel lying on My assembly table ,Just in case . Either way just make SURE the bullet comes out with or without the case it's imperative
Finer kerf cut is desirable . Big box or plumbing supply house sell a plumbers mini hacksaw, aka Tiny Tim ,they cut a perfect Kerf in the case neck as it needs to be minimal width for proper tension .You have the right tool for the job so unless you just want to waste time there really isn't a need to go back to old ways of doing things to get the same numbers. I used to do it that way years ago but stopped as the Hornady tool is as accurate and much easier.
Also that number is a basic reference number and doesn't have to be perfect down to .0001". I do the Hornady tool 2-3 times and get the basic number and then adjust off it. I use .020" off also to start and don't go closer but have backed out farther.
I will keep this info in mind. I’m gonna give the rounds I’m making a go and see what my results are…then as I gain more experience I might give this method a go too…I still use both methods Hornady OAL gauge and split neck case , as I load some Non book loads and HAVE to know ,so as to avoid disaster .
Method can be used in Semi Auto or Bolt gun ,just have to take care closing and opening bolts . Wax or sizing lube eases withdraw and avoids leaving bullet in the lede or lands . Fyi : I still have a hardwood dowel lying on My assembly table ,Just in case . Either way just make SURE the bullet comes out with or without the case it's imperative
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Do you have a chronograph? If not, I wouldn't bother loading in 0.2 grain increments. Start with 0.5 grain increments for now.
The biggest improvement in your group size will be once you find a node. You've got the right tools for the job with the Hornady tool and modified case. As others have eluded to, don't push hard on the Hornady tool before you tighten the probe. That can add a slight bow that will skew the results. Measure 8-10 times, throw out the high and low, then average the rest and call that your Lands dimension. (Helpful hint: Make a dummy round (no primer) that is seated to this CBTO dimension and label it. Use it for calibrating your comparator.)
Take the Lands CBTO dimension, subtract 0.020" and start by seating 5 bullets at that CBTO. Then continue seating bullets in groups of 5 where each group is 0.003" deeper than the last group. (Some people start this process using intervals of 0.005" or only make groups of 3 cartridges) At the range, label your targets with each CBTO dimension. Shoot one group or two, then let the barrel cool. When you're done with your groups, some should stand out has much tighter than others. Usually there will be a couple adjacent groups that are equally good. In that case, seat your bullets to the taller OBTO dimension. This will buy you extra time as the throat erodes and the Lands move down the barrel.
If you want, you can even seat a group at 0.017" off the CBTO. It's not going to hurt anything. At a minimum it give you an extra group to compare with the other groups when searching for a node.
I'm presently using 40.5 grains of H4350 with CCI BR2 primers, and Hornady140 ELD-M bullets seated to 2.2405" CBTO. Here is an a group from 12/23 -- probably my best 100 yard group ever. The statistics were generated using a free smartphone app called RangeTime. It uses the US quarter to calibrate the dimensions in the photograph. You define the distance, caliber, point of aim and the impacts. It does all the rest.
Remember that everyone's comparator tool is going to be slightly different. The CBTO I measure with my caliper might be slightly different than you get measuring one of my cartridges with your comparator. I have also found significant bullet ogive dimension differences even within the same box of 100 bullets. Every once in a while I'd seat one and it would be much deeper or much shallower than the last dozen I seated. (RCBS MatchMaster micrometer seating die) I sort my Hornady 140 ELD-M bullets by weight to the 0.1 grain. But even using bullets with the same weight to the tenth of a grain, I will have outliers that are up to 0.003" taller or shorter than the others. I usually use those for foulers or sighters. If I had more time, I'd initially sort all the bullets by "bullet base to ogive dimension". The scale is just SO much faster and I can have my GF sort them while I'm dropping powder or seating bullets. Over the last past ≈1000 bullets, I've seen them as high as 140.5 grains and as low as 139.7. When reloading, I only make groups of five from the same weight bin.
The biggest improvement in your group size will be once you find a node. You've got the right tools for the job with the Hornady tool and modified case. As others have eluded to, don't push hard on the Hornady tool before you tighten the probe. That can add a slight bow that will skew the results. Measure 8-10 times, throw out the high and low, then average the rest and call that your Lands dimension. (Helpful hint: Make a dummy round (no primer) that is seated to this CBTO dimension and label it. Use it for calibrating your comparator.)
Take the Lands CBTO dimension, subtract 0.020" and start by seating 5 bullets at that CBTO. Then continue seating bullets in groups of 5 where each group is 0.003" deeper than the last group. (Some people start this process using intervals of 0.005" or only make groups of 3 cartridges) At the range, label your targets with each CBTO dimension. Shoot one group or two, then let the barrel cool. When you're done with your groups, some should stand out has much tighter than others. Usually there will be a couple adjacent groups that are equally good. In that case, seat your bullets to the taller OBTO dimension. This will buy you extra time as the throat erodes and the Lands move down the barrel.
If you want, you can even seat a group at 0.017" off the CBTO. It's not going to hurt anything. At a minimum it give you an extra group to compare with the other groups when searching for a node.
I'm presently using 40.5 grains of H4350 with CCI BR2 primers, and Hornady140 ELD-M bullets seated to 2.2405" CBTO. Here is an a group from 12/23 -- probably my best 100 yard group ever. The statistics were generated using a free smartphone app called RangeTime. It uses the US quarter to calibrate the dimensions in the photograph. You define the distance, caliber, point of aim and the impacts. It does all the rest.
Remember that everyone's comparator tool is going to be slightly different. The CBTO I measure with my caliper might be slightly different than you get measuring one of my cartridges with your comparator. I have also found significant bullet ogive dimension differences even within the same box of 100 bullets. Every once in a while I'd seat one and it would be much deeper or much shallower than the last dozen I seated. (RCBS MatchMaster micrometer seating die) I sort my Hornady 140 ELD-M bullets by weight to the 0.1 grain. But even using bullets with the same weight to the tenth of a grain, I will have outliers that are up to 0.003" taller or shorter than the others. I usually use those for foulers or sighters. If I had more time, I'd initially sort all the bullets by "bullet base to ogive dimension". The scale is just SO much faster and I can have my GF sort them while I'm dropping powder or seating bullets. Over the last past ≈1000 bullets, I've seen them as high as 140.5 grains and as low as 139.7. When reloading, I only make groups of five from the same weight bin.
My research has lead me there too…then I felt o should just ask here too…and you and others have confirmed everything Enough for me to move forward……..BUT I would say I am puzzled as to why the barrel maker can chamber and cut a barrel but cant tell me where the lands are in the barrel they made….
Any of those charges will work just fine. Any 5 of the below dispersion pattern will represent any 5 you shoot. The keys will be consistency in charge weights and seating depth.
Attachments
Converting COAL to CBTO
It's rather difficult to precisely measure the COAL of a 6.5 Creedmoor Hornady 140 grain ELD-M bullet with the pointy plastic tip. Here is some research I did that may help you convert back and forth (or at least translate someone else's dimensions) to the measurement you're using.
Hornady claims their 140 ELD-M bullets have a manufacturing tolerance of 0.003" base to ogive and 0.005" base to tip.
I sorted my 140 ELD-M bullets by weight, randomly pulled out 12 from the 140.0 bin and measured their Base To Ogive.
The published overall length of the Hornady 140 ELD-M is 1.374"
If I subtract my average base to ogive dimension (0.7645") from the bullet's overall length, we can get the average Ogive To Tip dimension.
This means my CBTO measurement of 2.2405" represents a COAL of 2.8500".
When I first started reloading, the node for my H4350 load was a COAL of 2.8240", which works out to a CBTO of 2.059". Over the past ≈600 rounds, my node has shifted 0.026" down the barrel.
Summary: When seating Hornady 140 ELD-M bullets, COAL = CBTO + 0.6095"
It's rather difficult to precisely measure the COAL of a 6.5 Creedmoor Hornady 140 grain ELD-M bullet with the pointy plastic tip. Here is some research I did that may help you convert back and forth (or at least translate someone else's dimensions) to the measurement you're using.
Hornady claims their 140 ELD-M bullets have a manufacturing tolerance of 0.003" base to ogive and 0.005" base to tip.
I sorted my 140 ELD-M bullets by weight, randomly pulled out 12 from the 140.0 bin and measured their Base To Ogive.
- Minimum: 0.7635"
- Average: 0.7645"
- Maximum: 0.7650"
- Extreme Spread: 0.0015"
The published overall length of the Hornady 140 ELD-M is 1.374"
If I subtract my average base to ogive dimension (0.7645") from the bullet's overall length, we can get the average Ogive To Tip dimension.
1.374" - 0.7645" = 0.6095" Hornady 140 ELD-M Ogive to Tip
This means my CBTO measurement of 2.2405" represents a COAL of 2.8500".
When I first started reloading, the node for my H4350 load was a COAL of 2.8240", which works out to a CBTO of 2.059". Over the past ≈600 rounds, my node has shifted 0.026" down the barrel.
Summary: When seating Hornady 140 ELD-M bullets, COAL = CBTO + 0.6095"
My research has lead me there too…then I felt o should just ask here too…and you and others have confirmed everything Enough for me to move forward……..BUT I would say I am puzzled as to why the barrel maker can chamber and cut a barrel but cant tell me where the lands are in the barrel they made….
They can tell you which reamer they used and what the freebore is but the OAL to lands will be different from bullet to bullet so you have to check yourself.
Make sure you're not grazing rounds off the tip of the bayonet like I was doing intermittently for several months.Yes I have a Magnetospeed.….
I was questioning my reloading process, the remaining life in my barrel, and my shooting fundamentals. I'd shoot a nice group and then all of a sudden rounds would disappear like they were getting sucked into a black hole on their way to the target. I'd be missing a 2' x 3' target. Then all of a sudden rounds would start appearing on the target again. Often with crappy groups. Acceptable by hunter standards, but not by precision shooter standards. Turns out I had a slight cant in MK Machining mount. Everything looked good with the little 1/4" x 1/4" x 10" aluminum spacer rod, but the far end of the bayonet was angled ever so slightly towards the bullet path. Some rounds were skimming off the farthest pick-up sensor on the Magnetospeed. Every round was being recorded on the Magnetospeed display with normal velocities, but some weren't hitting the paper.
Just tiny scratches on the far end of the bayonet sensor. Nothing noticeable until a friend an I were talking about my crappy groups. He told me about his experience and I inspected mine closely. A Bingo. minor adjustment while at the range on 12/23 and I was VERY happy.
I’ve run into the same issue with the Berger 140 tips…the last 1/16” can be all over the map. But I appreciate the math info…
I tried to get a Garmin Xero….but they weren’t to be found so I bought the magnetospeed…will end up with a Xero I’m sure…Make sure you're not grazing rounds off the tip of the bayonet like I was doing intermittently for several months.
I was questioning my reloading process, the remaining life in my barrel, and my shooting fundamentals. I'd shoot a nice group and then all of a sudden rounds would disappear like they were getting sucked into a black hole on their way to the target. I'd be missing a 2' x 3' target. Then all of a sudden rounds would start appearing on the target again. Often with crappy groups. Acceptable by hunter standards, but not by precision shooter standards. Turns out I had a slight cant in MK Machining mount. Everything looked good with the little 1/4" x 1/4" x 10" aluminum spacer rod, but the far end of the bayonet was angled ever so slightly towards the bullet path. Some rounds were skimming off the farthest pick-up sensor on the Magnetospeed. Every round was being recorded on the Magnetospeed display with normal velocities, but some weren't hitting the paper.
Just tiny scratches on the far end of the bayonet sensor. Nothing noticeable until a friend an I were talking about my crappy groups. He told me about his experience and I inspected mine closely. A Bingo. minor adjustment while at the range on 12/23 and I was VERY happy.
There are more available now as I know Impact Data Books has Garmins in stock now but the Magnetospeed works just fine. Been using them for many years. Used to attach to the barrel but now attach via arca mount. You just need to use the rod to make sure your bullet has clearance and then look down the bore to make sure you can't see the bayonet.
#3 different measuring techniques and #3 different measurements
I've used two of them and personal preference is ; MY Chamber fired case fit with which ever bullet I'm gonna load forced into the lands with MY Bolt ,so it's absolute and accurate TOO MY WEAPON . Nothing wrong with Hornady or other OAL gauges and I'm Not OCD or shooting bench rest ,so is it really that critical ,NO it's just MY preference . Either way ,neither takes any more time to mock up or measure .
Now I'll admit I bought a Tap 5/16" X 36 ,so as to do it either way and will use MY fired cases ,rather than purchasing factory Hornady ones .
Carry On .
I've used two of them and personal preference is ; MY Chamber fired case fit with which ever bullet I'm gonna load forced into the lands with MY Bolt ,so it's absolute and accurate TOO MY WEAPON . Nothing wrong with Hornady or other OAL gauges and I'm Not OCD or shooting bench rest ,so is it really that critical ,NO it's just MY preference . Either way ,neither takes any more time to mock up or measure .
Now I'll admit I bought a Tap 5/16" X 36 ,so as to do it either way and will use MY fired cases ,rather than purchasing factory Hornady ones .
Carry On .
Well men, as of about an hour ago, I am officially out of the 6.5 Creedmoor business. Sold my RPR and have re-barreled the MPA with a 6GT barrel. Not sure how I feel about this choice, but it’s been made. Main reason, too much time spent trying to keep two different caliber rifles in ammo. So, everything that is precision is GT. They are both ok with the same loadings, maybe not totally optimized but I don’t shoot Bench Rest of F Class but both do hit steel out to a 1000 yards or more and that is what counts.
What I will say and will say it to my death. The RPR and MPA were the most accurate rifles I have ever owned. The 6.5 Creedmoor was also the most tolerant / easiest to load for round, I have ever come across in my 52 years of reloading and 59 years of shooting centerfire rifles.
What I will say and will say it to my death. The RPR and MPA were the most accurate rifles I have ever owned. The 6.5 Creedmoor was also the most tolerant / easiest to load for round, I have ever come across in my 52 years of reloading and 59 years of shooting centerfire rifles.
I can dig it. The 30-06 was my best reloading round for decades until I got my 6.5 CM. I am old enough that I think I am done experimenting. Also done with cartridges that kick (30-06) lol
Don’t second guess yourself. Nothing is stuck in concrete. Everything is a learning opportunity. I had a 224 Valkyrie that annoyed the heck out of me, but it taught me to be a better reloader and a better shooter.
Got my 1-7.5 twist Bartlien over the 200rd mark today and ready for the 2024 PRS season. This was 10 shots right after passing the 200rd mark.
40.5gr H4350
Berger 156gr EOL jumped .80 thou
Virgin Lapua SRP brass
40.5gr H4350
Berger 156gr EOL jumped .80 thou
Virgin Lapua SRP brass
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An impressive SD for 10 rounds. What are you using to measure your powder? What primer are you using?
I use a Super Trickler and I’m using CCI 450 primers
The question is: how often can you duplicate those results?
That is also the challenge.
For those running 156s, if you decided on that over the 153.5s, why?
Because my buddy Andy Slade runs them and he turned me onto them. I know several people running them in PRS with great success. I also know people that interchange them with the 153.5’s, same powder charge and jump. The 153.5’s are definitely easier to find.
I understand that.
The load was repeatable for group on the next 5 I had loaded. I loaded 10 of each charge. If the numbers looked good I would shoot the second 5 to verify data. 41.2 was the one that was good. 41.1, SD 12.3, ES 42.6, MV Average 2497. 41.0 was close at SD 7.4, ES 19.4 and MV Average 2497.7. It was right at a 2" overall group where the 41.2 held tighter on paper. Waiting on weather and I'll see what they do at 400. Thats my max at the gun club. For a hunting round that the max I'll also have available to take a shot on game.
Very good.
Very good. I subscribe to the random dispersion idea and my math training suggests that anything less than 30 or 35 rounds is too small of a sampling to make good decisions. Glad to hear you are pursuing it more for verification. Best of luck!
