Maggie’s Motivational Pic Thread v2.0 - - New Rules - See Post #1

#238,751
W54/XM-388 said:
It's a matter of the right tools, training and preparation for the job.
The police are not what you should be using for social services.
The police are not what you should be using for mental health episodes.

But nobody seems to want to actually spend the time and money to have folks trained and equipped and ready on standby to deal with mental illness.
If you have the correct tools for the job on hand and ready to be deployed, most uses of deadly force could be avoided in mental illness situations.
Capture shields
Net launchers
Non-lethal mass impact devices
Water cannons
Tranquilizer guns
Air blast devices

The list goes on.
BUT none of it works unless folks have the items, are trained to use the items and have a plan to use them first and use them effectively.

If all you pay for is some lone guy with a gun, a badge and a bad attitude, well the mentally ill person doesn't care about the badge and the bad attitude and you can't fault the police for defending their lives the same way any citizen would have the right to.

You Could train the police to do all that, but nobody seems to want that, especially not the police who if you listen to the media, you get the idea that somehow they hate the idea of being something other than Judge Dredd. I'll bet the police unions would be all crazy mad about telling officers they can't just kill folks.

Not to mention the stupid greedy cities don't want to pay for the training and equipment that would need to be provided.
It would mean you need to pay for teams of police not just 1 driving around. It would mean you would need to pay for all the equipment to be with them and ready for deployment.

The cities and the taxpayers would need to start having to pay out huge sums of money before they will be willing to invest in such changes.
The police would need to get this vile "immunity" B.S. removed before they are willing to learn and train for non-lethal takedowns.
Also you might need a slight tweaking of the laws to say well, you were doing something the average citizen would have been fine with killing you for to stop you from killing them, so if you got a bit banged up in the process of being non-lethally stopped, we are going to slam the door in the face of your ambulance chasing lawyers...

For those that think it's impossible, try this exercise:

You are stuck in North Korea
Fat man's mentally ill son is running around rampaging with knives in both hands.
Your orders are to get him back to his padded room.

If you kill him, you and your entire family for 3 generations are sent to the liquidation camps, and fed to the dogs or otherwise dispatched.

If you fail and he hurts a bunch of folks, it causes great embarrassment to Dear Leader, and you and your family for 3 generations are sent to the labour camps.

Now that your life and the lives of your family are on the line, come up with a plan to get Dear Leader's son disarmed safely, and back in his padded room without injuring him too badly. Figure out what equipment you want to bring with you, how many folks, and what your tactics are.

I'll bet you could figure it out & have a good chance of success.

(If you need clues, I could point you to some old Japanese movies showing an idea or two on capturing folks armed with swords).
Click to expand...

Have you personally answered 9-1-1 calls? Either in Law Enforcement or Fire/EMS.

I have been for 25 years, and am still active duty with the FD. I have been to more mental illness calls than I can remember. Every single one of them, the person was talked out of what they were doing, and/or us and Police went hands on, got them subdued, and the patient transported. PD can taze, spray, and cuff. Then we can medicate them to calm them down and put them to sleep.

But, when one of them is charging with a knife or two, that person is getting killed. There is only a fraction of a second for one of us to make a decision. We come first. Then the general public. In my text book from 1998 the words were printed in black and white "Dead or Injured Firefighters cannot help anyone." Our first priority is each other, and going home safe and sound when the shift is over.

She charged with a knife. She decided her ending. Fuck her and the next one that acts like her.

And we are going to go back to the station and make a sammich.
 
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#238,752
MadDuner said:
Certainly not armchair quarterbacking here..... but would a 12-gauge with beanbag rounds be another solution?
Click to expand...

I think a floppy 4' long dildo canon loaded with axle grease and powered by a Dewalt 60V Li battery with a portable PA built into your beer-goggle helmet playing the theme to Ghost Busters could get the job done.
 
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#238,753
GDMTyIRXoAA6iEA.jpg
 
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#238,756
W54/XM-388 said:
It's a matter of the right tools, training and preparation for the job.
The police are not what you should be using for social services.
The police are not what you should be using for mental health episodes.

But nobody seems to want to actually spend the time and money to have folks trained and equipped and ready on standby to deal with mental illness.
If you have the correct tools for the job on hand and ready to be deployed, most uses of deadly force could be avoided in mental illness situations.
Capture shields
Net launchers
Non-lethal mass impact devices
Water cannons
Tranquilizer guns
Air blast devices

The list goes on.
BUT none of it works unless folks have the items, are trained to use the items and have a plan to use them first and use them effectively.

If all you pay for is some lone guy with a gun, a badge and a bad attitude, well the mentally ill person doesn't care about the badge and the bad attitude and you can't fault the police for defending their lives the same way any citizen would have the right to.

You Could train the police to do all that, but nobody seems to want that, especially not the police who if you listen to the media, you get the idea that somehow they hate the idea of being something other than Judge Dredd. I'll bet the police unions would be all crazy mad about telling officers they can't just kill folks.

Not to mention the stupid greedy cities don't want to pay for the training and equipment that would need to be provided.
It would mean you need to pay for teams of police not just 1 driving around. It would mean you would need to pay for all the equipment to be with them and ready for deployment.

The cities and the taxpayers would need to start having to pay out huge sums of money before they will be willing to invest in such changes.
The police would need to get this vile "immunity" B.S. removed before they are willing to learn and train for non-lethal takedowns.
Also you might need a slight tweaking of the laws to say well, you were doing something the average citizen would have been fine with killing you for to stop you from killing them, so if you got a bit banged up in the process of being non-lethally stopped, we are going to slam the door in the face of your ambulance chasing lawyers...

For those that think it's impossible, try this exercise:

You are stuck in North Korea
Fat man's mentally ill son is running around rampaging with knives in both hands.
Your orders are to get him back to his padded room.

If you kill him, you and your entire family for 3 generations are sent to the liquidation camps, and fed to the dogs or otherwise dispatched.

If you fail and he hurts a bunch of folks, it causes great embarrassment to Dear Leader, and you and your family for 3 generations are sent to the labour camps.

Now that your life and the lives of your family are on the line, come up with a plan to get Dear Leader's son disarmed safely, and back in his padded room without injuring him too badly. Figure out what equipment you want to bring with you, how many folks, and what your tactics are.

I'll bet you could figure it out & have a good chance of success.

(If you need clues, I could point you to some old Japanese movies showing an idea or two on capturing folks armed with swords).
Click to expand...
But, but, but.
It's much easier to sit in your comfy recliner next to the wood stove and wring your hands second guessing first responders actions.

First responder going home and eating a sammich or crazy person with two knives. Hmmm, I think I know who I'm voting for.
 
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#238,761
Broncovan said:
But, but, but.
It's much easier to sit in your comfy recliner next to the wood stove and wring your hands second guessing first responders actions.

First responder going home and eating a sammich or crazy person with two knives. Hmmm, I think I know who I'm voting for.
Click to expand...

Considering the citizens are who pays for the first responders, who pays for the mistakes they make and who (supposedly) votes for those that write the policies and budget and practices of the first responders. I'd say it's actually the duty of the citizens to ponder and think about such things and if they feel things should be done better, to try to push for it.

The whole point of pondering and discussing it and going back and forth is to avoid a situation where a person suffering a mental health emergency is being a danger to others and the only tool the only person responding has on them is a gun.

The plan should be that those who decide to take a job as first responders have the tools, policies, staffing and training to resolve situations without loss of life unless it is completely unavoidable and held to the same standards or higher that the citizens are held to. Enabling them to do their job without the need to kill people mostly and also be able to be safe. I would probably also require staffing levels so there are always at least 2 or 3 police officers in the vehicle to show up for any call and not just 1 person by themselves. Again money that we don't spend because "social justice spending".

But unfortunately the political and administrative ruling class aren't interested in such things unless you start like burning down cities and overrunning police stations and horror... interfering with the collection of taxes. Then they will at least pay it lip service... right up until you forget and then they go back to running everything into the ground.
 
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#238,774
TACC said:
Yeah, this is where they needed one of those social workers with no weapons
Click to expand...
Can you imagine, an emergency services van pulls up and a group of middle aged bespectacled men wearing tweed and smoking pipes jump out quoting Jung and Freud speaking about the pitfalls of repressed emotions and dissociation?
 
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#238,778
quietmike said:
Can you imagine, an emergency services van pulls up and a group of middle aged bespectacled men wearing tweed and smoking pipes jump out quoting Jung and Freud speaking about the pitfalls of repressed emotions and dissociation?
Click to expand...
How about a compromise? Let the purple haired social worker try to de-escalate the situation. Then when she is laying in a pool of her own blood, try to arrest the crazy lady. The outcome will be the same. The murder charges would prevent the excessive force lawsuit and we'd have one less commie on government payroll. If we didn't need all the rainbow haired commies we can get before November, we wouldn't miss either of them.
 
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#238,796
W54/XM-388 said:
It's a matter of the right tools, training and preparation for the job.
The police are not what you should be using for social services.
The police are not what you should be using for mental health episodes.

But nobody seems to want to actually spend the time and money to have folks trained and equipped and ready on standby to deal with mental illness.
If you have the correct tools for the job on hand and ready to be deployed, most uses of deadly force could be avoided in mental illness situations.
Capture shields
Net launchers
Non-lethal mass impact devices
Water cannons
Tranquilizer guns
Air blast devices

The list goes on.
BUT none of it works unless folks have the items, are trained to use the items and have a plan to use them first and use them effectively.

If all you pay for is some lone guy with a gun, a badge and a bad attitude, well the mentally ill person doesn't care about the badge and the bad attitude and you can't fault the police for defending their lives the same way any citizen would have the right to.

You Could train the police to do all that, but nobody seems to want that, especially not the police who if you listen to the media, you get the idea that somehow they hate the idea of being something other than Judge Dredd. I'll bet the police unions would be all crazy mad about telling officers they can't just kill folks.

Not to mention the stupid greedy cities don't want to pay for the training and equipment that would need to be provided.
It would mean you need to pay for teams of police not just 1 driving around. It would mean you would need to pay for all the equipment to be with them and ready for deployment.

The cities and the taxpayers would need to start having to pay out huge sums of money before they will be willing to invest in such changes.
The police would need to get this vile "immunity" B.S. removed before they are willing to learn and train for non-lethal takedowns.
Also you might need a slight tweaking of the laws to say well, you were doing something the average citizen would have been fine with killing you for to stop you from killing them, so if you got a bit banged up in the process of being non-lethally stopped, we are going to slam the door in the face of your ambulance chasing lawyers...

For those that think it's impossible, try this exercise:

You are stuck in North Korea
Fat man's mentally ill son is running around rampaging with knives in both hands.
Your orders are to get him back to his padded room.

If you kill him, you and your entire family for 3 generations are sent to the liquidation camps, and fed to the dogs or otherwise dispatched.

If you fail and he hurts a bunch of folks, it causes great embarrassment to Dear Leader, and you and your family for 3 generations are sent to the labour camps.

Now that your life and the lives of your family are on the line, come up with a plan to get Dear Leader's son disarmed safely, and back in his padded room without injuring him too badly. Figure out what equipment you want to bring with you, how many folks, and what your tactics are.

I'll bet you could figure it out & have a good chance of success.

(If you need clues, I could point you to some old Japanese movies showing an idea or two on capturing folks armed with swords).
Click to expand...
20 years in law enforcement this past year. We seem to get all the blame yet we are the first ones called when someone needs help. My county implemented a Mobile Crisis Team 2 years ago. End of December 2023 13 of the 20 positions were cut by the director of the Health Department that oversaw them. His reasoning is that we (the police) were over utilizing them for calls that we had traditionally handled ourselves such as suicidal persons, persons in a mental crisis requesting help, overdoses or unattended deaths where family were on scene and distraught. Even the local health department doesn't want to spend the money to help people. Just send the police. I have had people that have legitimately made an attempt to harm or kill themselves that I have taken to the local hospital for an emergency evaluation only for them to be released within 4 hours. 7 times they have left the hospital and successfully killed themselves. Twice I have been named in wrongfully death lawsuits as a result. Never has the hospital staff that said they were not a threat to themselves been named. I am trained for both the Taser and FN303. Only our swat team has the FN303. 6 Taser deployments in the last 15 years and only 1 was truly effective. Drugs, clothing, and other factors can and do limit its effectiveness. Currently unless someone agrees to go for an evaluation, I can't even force them to go to the hospital now. Families can get a court ordered evaluation issued by a judge but if the person says, "Fuck you I am not going", our response is OK see you tomorrow. I have been shot at, stabbed twice, almost run over with a car, and exposed to HIV, AIDS, Hep C and God knows what else on multiple occasions. Just in the last 5 years I have buried 8 of my friends and coworkers and been to over 15 funerals for others killed in the line of duty just because of the uniform they wore. We are treated in many areas like returning veterans from the Vietnam area were. I was diagnosed with PTS, depression, and anxiety in 2018 following a horrific call in 2017 where an infant was killed. My wife was pregnant with our son at the time. December 2017 and again August 2018, my sons first Christmas and his first birthday I ended up with a gun in my mouth ready to pull the trigger. The only thing that stopped me was the thought of that being my legacy for my son. I am far from being ok but I am much better that I was. My wife and a few very close friends made sure I got the help I needed in time in spite of what a commander at my agency thiught and said about me. Some of you assholes on here have brought me more laughter and smiles than you will ever know. My collection of stolen memories from here has resulted in my permanent bann from facebook. I thank you for that. All that being said until you are willing to put on the uniform and do the job yourself shut the fuck up about the outcome of that video. Military, first responders fire/police/ems see the worst of the worst on a daily basis. Teachers are not far behind in today's schools unfortunately. Yet all are expected to make a split second decision while being under trained, overworked, and unsupported by the people in charge only to be scrutinized and demonized by those that have never been in that situation themselves. As I tell each new police class when I visit the academy to teach certain blocks, saying it, doing it, and living with the aftermath are all 3 very different things. Weather it is taking a life, doing your absolute best but still failing to save a life, or everything in between. I lost zero sleep in the life that was lost in my fatal crash years ago. He was drunk and high on a motorcycle and crossed the center line striking me head on. I was almost completely on the shoulder trying to get out of the way. That was my 3rd of 9 diagnosed concussions. I have however spent countless sleepless nights and still do, tonight being one of them as i sit in my sons room listening to him snore and finding peace in the sounds, fighting the demons in my head while remembering those I could not save no matter how hard I tried weather they be friends, enemies, or complete strangers.
 

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#238,798
Maelstrom said:
20 years in law enforcement this past year. We seem to get all the blame yet we are the first ones called when someone needs help. My county implemented a Mobile Crisis Team 2 years ago. End of December 2023 13 of the 20 positions were cut by the director of the Health Department that oversaw them. His reasoning is that we (the police) were over utilizing them for calls that we had traditionally handled ourselves such as suicidal persons, persons in a mental crisis requesting help, overdoses or unattended deaths where family were on scene and distraught. Even the local health department doesn't want to spend the money to help people. Just send the police. I have had people that have legitimately made an attempt to harm or kill themselves that I have taken to the local hospital for an emergency evaluation only for them to be released within 4 hours. 7 times they have left the hospital and successfully killed themselves. Twice I have been named in wrongfully death lawsuits as a result. Never has the hospital staff that said they were not a threat to themselves been named. I am trained for both the Taser and FN303. Only our swat team has the FN303. 6 Taser deployments in the last 15 years and only 1 was truly effective. Drugs, clothing, and other factors can and do limit its effectiveness. Currently unless someone agrees to go for an evaluation, I can't even force them to go to the hospital now. Families can get a court ordered evaluation issued by a judge but if the person says, "Fuck you I am not going", our response is OK see you tomorrow. I have been shot at, stabbed twice, almost run over with a car, and exposed to HIV, AIDS, Hep C and God knows what else on multiple occasions. Just in the last 5 years I have buried 8 of my friends and coworkers and been to over 15 funerals for others killed in the line of duty just because of the uniform they wore. We are treated in many areas like returning veterans from the Vietnam area were. I was diagnosed with PTS, depression, and anxiety in 2018 following a horrific call in 2017 where an infant was killed. My wife was pregnant with our son at the time. December 2017 and again August 2018, my sons first Christmas and his first birthday I ended up with a gun in my mouth ready to pull the trigger. The only thing that stopped me was the thought of that being my legacy for my son. I am far from being ok but I am much better that I was. My wife and a few very close friends made sure I got the help I needed in time in spite of what a commander at my agency thiught and said about me. Some of you assholes on here have brought me more laughter and smiles than you will ever know. My collection of stolen memories from here has resulted in my permanent bann from facebook. I thank you for that. All that being said until you are willing to put on the uniform and do the job yourself shut the fuck up about the outcome of that video. Military, first responders fire/police/ems see the worst of the worst on a daily basis. Teachers are not far behind in today's schools unfortunately. Yet all are expected to make a split second decision while being under trained, overworked, and unsupported by the people in charge only to be scrutinized and demonized by those that have never been in that situation themselves. As I tell each new police class when I visit the academy to teach certain blocks, saying it, doing it, and living with the aftermath are all 3 very different things. Weather it is taking a life, doing your absolute best but still failing to save a life, or everything in between. I lost zero sleep in the life that was lost in my fatal crash years ago. He was drunk and high on a motorcycle and crossed the center line striking me head on. I was almost completely on the shoulder trying to get out of the way. That was my 3rd of 9 diagnosed concussions. I have however spent countless sleepless nights and still do, tonight being one of them as i sit in my sons room listening to him snore and finding peace in the sounds, fighting the demons in my head while remembering those I could not save no matter how hard I tried weather they be friends, enemies, or complete strangers.
Click to expand...
May God bless you man, and keep you and your loved ones safe. I thank you for your service, and support law enforcement 100 percent. I hope you and your fellow Leo's know the majority of Americans feel as I do. I'll never pass an opportunity to shake their hand and thank them. I'm a gulf War vet, and have seen some shit, but I was young, single and that's been long behind me. I can't imagine doing it for so long with a family to take care of at the end of every day. Stay safe and healthy brother, and know that you're appreciated.
 
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#238,799
Maelstrom said:
20 years in law enforcement this past year. We seem to get all the blame yet we are the first ones called when someone needs help. My county implemented a Mobile Crisis Team 2 years ago. End of December 2023 13 of the 20 positions were cut by the director of the Health Department that oversaw them. His reasoning is that we (the police) were over utilizing them for calls that we had traditionally handled ourselves such as suicidal persons, persons in a mental crisis requesting help, overdoses or unattended deaths where family were on scene and distraught. Even the local health department doesn't want to spend the money to help people. Just send the police. I have had people that have legitimately made an attempt to harm or kill themselves that I have taken to the local hospital for an emergency evaluation only for them to be released within 4 hours. 7 times they have left the hospital and successfully killed themselves. Twice I have been named in wrongfully death lawsuits as a result. Never has the hospital staff that said they were not a threat to themselves been named. I am trained for both the Taser and FN303. Only our swat team has the FN303. 6 Taser deployments in the last 15 years and only 1 was truly effective. Drugs, clothing, and other factors can and do limit its effectiveness. Currently unless someone agrees to go for an evaluation, I can't even force them to go to the hospital now. Families can get a court ordered evaluation issued by a judge but if the person says, "Fuck you I am not going", our response is OK see you tomorrow. I have been shot at, stabbed twice, almost run over with a car, and exposed to HIV, AIDS, Hep C and God knows what else on multiple occasions. Just in the last 5 years I have buried 8 of my friends and coworkers and been to over 15 funerals for others killed in the line of duty just because of the uniform they wore. We are treated in many areas like returning veterans from the Vietnam area were. I was diagnosed with PTS, depression, and anxiety in 2018 following a horrific call in 2017 where an infant was killed. My wife was pregnant with our son at the time. December 2017 and again August 2018, my sons first Christmas and his first birthday I ended up with a gun in my mouth ready to pull the trigger. The only thing that stopped me was the thought of that being my legacy for my son. I am far from being ok but I am much better that I was. My wife and a few very close friends made sure I got the help I needed in time in spite of what a commander at my agency thiught and said about me. Some of you assholes on here have brought me more laughter and smiles than you will ever know. My collection of stolen memories from here has resulted in my permanent bann from facebook. I thank you for that. All that being said until you are willing to put on the uniform and do the job yourself shut the fuck up about the outcome of that video. Military, first responders fire/police/ems see the worst of the worst on a daily basis. Teachers are not far behind in today's schools unfortunately. Yet all are expected to make a split second decision while being under trained, overworked, and unsupported by the people in charge only to be scrutinized and demonized by those that have never been in that situation themselves. As I tell each new police class when I visit the academy to teach certain blocks, saying it, doing it, and living with the aftermath are all 3 very different things. Weather it is taking a life, doing your absolute best but still failing to save a life, or everything in between. I lost zero sleep in the life that was lost in my fatal crash years ago. He was drunk and high on a motorcycle and crossed the center line striking me head on. I was almost completely on the shoulder trying to get out of the way. That was my 3rd of 9 diagnosed concussions. I have however spent countless sleepless nights and still do, tonight being one of them as i sit in my sons room listening to him snore and finding peace in the sounds, fighting the demons in my head while remembering those I could not save no matter how hard I tried weather they be friends, enemies, or complete strangers.
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