Rifle Scopes New Schmidt & Bender PM2 6-36x56

#2,251
Nik H said:
Tr2id is available with DTII+?
Click to expand...
Yes, that's what mine is.

It was pre-ordered before they were even officially announced, but I believe they are showing them as a stock item now (at EO). I ordered in March and it was delivered in June. Edit: nope, they are only showing the "0.5cm" (0.05mil/click) DTII+ TR2ID on their site right now, but if you call you can certainly order one with the normal "1cm" (0.1mil/clidk) DTII+ turrets like I have. I used quotations on those designations because I hate how SB uses metric terminology on turret designations for what is really an angular measurement, and not metric.

TR2ID is currently only available in 6-36x and 10-60x according to Jerry, but will probably find its way to other PMIIs in the future. I have a 5-25x with H2CMR reticle in for a repair with them right now, and inquired about the possibility of changing it to a TR2ID while they have it, but it is not an option on 5-25 for now.
 
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#2,253
vh20 said:
Yes, that's what mine is.

Edit: nope, they are only showing the "0.5cm" (0.05mil/click) DTII+ TR2ID on their site right now, but if you call you can certainly order one with the normal "1cm" (0.1mil/clidk) DTII+ turrets like I have. I used quotations on those designations because I hate how SB uses metric terminology on turret designations for what is really an angular measurement, and not metric.
Click to expand...
I was bothered by that too but seeing how 0.1 mils is 1.000000003 cm at 100 m, I'll let it slide. It's safe to say 0.1 mils and 1 cm @ 100 m are effectively interchangeable with regard to rifle scopes...unlike the situation for the MOA counterparts.

For the MTII turrets, it seems like the only reasonable approach...you want the numbers on the scope where they are with a reasonably large font size but without seeming too cluttered. The additional characters required to show the units as 0.05 mrad for all 16 numbers per rotation would make it seem even more cluttered with numbers on top of each other unless the font was shrunk.

After coming to terms with that, I stopped having a preference on the mrad vs cm markings.
 
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#2,254
Lucky Se7en said:
I was bothered by that too but seeing how 0.1 mils is 1.000000003 cm at 100 m, I'll let it slide. It's safe to say 0.1 mils and 1 cm @ 100 m are effectively interchangeable with regard to rifle scopes...unlike the situation for the MOA counterparts.

For the MTII turrets, it seems like the only reasonable approach...you want the numbers on the scope where they are with a reasonably large font size but without seeming too cluttered. The additional characters required to show the units as 0.05 mrad for all 16 numbers per rotation would make it seem even more cluttered with numbers on top of each other unless the font was shrunk.

After coming to terms with that, I stopped having a preference on the mrad vs cm markings.
Click to expand...
Excellent point I hadn’t thought of. I was just talking about the nomenclature in the model numbers without regard to turret markings, and I haven’t looked at one in person, but I can see where that would necessary.
 
#2,255
Indeed it is clutered with numbers and yes the numbering can be confusing ( 10th of mil, rather than the classic mil - 1 mil become 10 10th of mil).

But personally I view them as 8 mil turret VS my previous 10 mil turret ZCO. And I like it.

the turret has the right dimensions for rotating it. The clicks are amazing in my opinion.

The FOV ( non US) is perfect.

Screenshot_20240727_233727_VLC.jpg
 
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#2,256
5Baize said:
Indeed it is clutered with numbers and yes the numbering can be confusing ( 10th of mil, rather than the classic mil - 1 mil become 10 10th of mil).

But personally I view them as 8 mil turret VS my previous 10 mil turret ZCO. And I like it.

the turret has the right dimensions for rotating it. The clicks are amazing in my opinion.

The FOV ( non US) is perfect.

View attachment 8467624
Click to expand...
It is a busy turret for certain but I can see why it was done this way. I would have to physically see one before I would go that way.

You say the clicks are amazing. Can you elaborate? Would you say that they are as crisp and precise as the clicks on the ZCO or TT?
 
#2,257
Nik H said:
It is a busy turret for certain but I can see why it was done this way. I would have to physically see one before I would go that way.

You say the clicks are amazing. Can you elaborate? Would you say that they are as crisp and precise as the clicks on the ZCO or TT?
Click to expand...
Imo the dtii+ and mtt turrets are money. Zco feels softer but definitely a solid detent but I hate the turret lock and how they zero.

The tt is closer in feel imo to the dtii/mtt. The SB is more slightly more audible and very distinct. You can feel and hear each click... Very crisp. The ability to quickly lock and turn mtc on off is so nice

Tt are slightly more spaced apart not quite as tactile maybe is how I would describe it but seriously splitting hairs for sure. Tt turrets are pretty awesome.

Maybe I can take a video comparing them but @Long Range 338 can also comment.
 
#2,258
Nik H said:
It is a busy turret for certain but I can see why it was done this way. I would have to physically see one before I would go that way.

You say the clicks are amazing. Can you elaborate? Would you say that they are as crisp and precise as the clicks on the ZCO or TT?
Click to expand...
@GBMaryland has both so you two just have to meet your October commitments…

I still take TT over SB, but if you want a locking the DT II+ are probably the best on the market. ZCO is better than say NF, but they’re not as consistent or good as TT or SB DT II+.
 
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#2,259
Nik H said:
It is a busy turret for certain but I can see why it was done this way. I would have to physically see one before I would go that way.

You say the clicks are amazing. Can you elaborate? Would you say that they are as crisp and precise as the clicks on the ZCO or TT?
Click to expand...

Never seen a TT in my like, even less touched one. So I can't compare.

But compares to my ZCO, it is sharper, very crispy with less turret friction. Not much effort required to turn it.

Saying this, of find my ZCO turret very good . But this one is even better.
 
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#2,262
Lucky Se7en said:
I was bothered by that too but seeing how 0.1 mils is 1.000000003 cm at 100 m, I'll let it slide. It's safe to say 0.1 mils and 1 cm @ 100 m are effectively interchangeable with regard to rifle scopes...unlike the situation for the MOA counterparts.

For the MTII turrets, it seems like the only reasonable approach...you want the numbers on the scope where they are with a reasonably large font size but without seeming too cluttered. The additional characters required to show the units as 0.05 mrad for all 16 numbers per rotation would make it seem even more cluttered with numbers on top of each other unless the font was shrunk.

After coming to terms with that, I stopped having a preference on the mrad vs cm markings.
Click to expand...
Wait what?

1 MIL is 1cm at 100m

0.1 MIL is 1mm at 100m

I don’t know where you’re getting 1.00000000003
 
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#2,265
I am a HUGE fan of the MT .5cm turrets... it is my preference on all of my S&B scopes. The feel of the clicks is superb , besting everything i have including TT..

I have just ordered the S&B 5-45 PM2 High Power with the MT .5cm option, i imaging it will be the same as the others...which is top notch!!
 

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#2,266
secondofangle2 said:
Wait what?

1 MIL is 1cm at 100m

0.1 MIL is 1mm at 100 yards

I don’t know where you’re getting 1.00000000003
Click to expand...

I think you might have transposed a digit.

Essentially 0.1 mil is 1CM at 100M BUT not like perfectly exactly, but close enough to be correct for all general shooting intents and purposes.
Hence on the S&B scopes essentially the turrents each click (0.1 mil) being labeled as either 1CM/100M or 0.1 mil is essentially the same thing.

Kind of useful to know when you are sighting in rifles at fixed distances using grid paper.
 
#2,267
Huskydriver said:
Imo the dtii+ and mtt turrets are money. Zco feels softer but definitely a solid detent but I hate the turret lock and how they zero.

The tt is closer in feel imo to the dtii/mtt. The SB is more slightly more audible and very distinct. You can feel and hear each click... Very crisp. The ability to quickly lock and turn mtc on off is so nice

Tt are slightly more spaced apart not quite as tactile maybe is how I would describe it but seriously splitting hairs for sure. Tt turrets are pretty awesome.

Maybe I can take a video comparing them but @Long Range 338 can also comment.
Click to expand...
You can’t trust @Huskydriver he is too much of a fanboi…..

The TT are the best turrets hands down but those DTII+ turrets are nothing short of excellent as well! So even tho he is fanboing, in this case he is correct..

1722199725520.gif
 
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#2,269
Ok, just some info in case anybody is interested:
when folks say 1 mil, what they actually mean is 1 milliradian, which is an angle measurement.
1 milliradian is 1/1000 th radian, which is an angle of 1/1000th of 180/pi degrees, which is 0.057295779513082 degrees.
So 0.1 mil = 0.005729577951308 degrees.
So if you adjust your scope by 0.1 mil, you are actually drawing a right triangle with the paper target at whatever distance.

Example for target at 100m:
Angle of your zero shift = 0.1 mil
Distance to target = 100 meters
Zero shift on the target = x
IMG_20240729_095739.jpg
 
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#2,271
javemtr said:
Ok, just some info in case anybody is interested:
when folks say 1 mil, what they actually mean is 1 milliradian, which is an angle measurement.
1 milliradian is 1/1000 th radian, which is an angle of 1/1000th of 180/pi degrees, which is 0.057295779513082 degrees.
So 0.1 mil = 0.005729577951308 degrees.
So if you adjust your scope by 0.1 mil, you are actually drawing a right triangle with the paper target at whatever distance.

Example for target at 100m:
Angle of your zero shift = 0.1 mil
Distance to target = 100 meters
Zero shift on the target = x
View attachment 8468528
Click to expand...
I can shoot the difference.
 
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#2,273
I finally got to shoot my 6-36 S&B on my .308 bolt gun. Very crystal clear glass. Huge eyebox. I can actually get behind the scope on 30-36x without any trouble. The P5FL reticle is great for the type of shooting I do. I love the center dot.

All in all, I am very happy with my purchase. I wish I had more time to shoot it.
 
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#2,274
madangler1 said:
I finally got to shoot my 6-36 S&B on my .308 bolt gun. Very crystal clear glass. Huge eyebox. I can actually get behind the scope on 30-36x without any trouble. The P5FL reticle is great for the type of shooting I do. I love the center dot.

All in all, I am very happy with my purchase. I wish I had more time to shoot it.
Click to expand...
Huge eyebox compared to what? Better then Hensoldt 4x16, which is the best I ever seen. Is the SB636 eyebox better then TT525, ZCO527, SB525 or even Vortex RG3 which is surprisingly good at 36. My previous scopes were various SB's, Premier and ZCO527 and this time I opted for a budget scope. As I drove home from the range the other day, it suddenly dawned on me that RG3 never annoyed me once during my whole range session out to 600 yards (range limit). I get easily annoyed with scopes, especially those that have a finicky eyebox demanding perfect technique from me. I am an amateur for fuck sake, I should be allowed to buy myself out of shitty habits. Is the SB636 my solution? Could you please give us a reference?

I am on the verge of getting another ZCO, however, if the SB636 has a considerably more forgiving eyebox at comparable magnification, then SB636 it is. I always liked SB's turrets more then the ZCO turrets anyway and SB service shop in VA is fantastic to deal with, which is an important deciding purchase factor as they all seem to need something at some point.

Much appreciated
 
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#2,276
I personally didn't think there was much of an eyebox difference between the ZCO527 and S&B 5-25x56. They both felt "good" but not "exceptional". Having said that, I never had them at the same time. Having them side by side is key when comparing scopes that are so close together. Thank you for sharing your experience.
 
#2,278
vno.helix said:
Huge eyebox compared to what? Better then Hensoldt 4x16, which is the best I ever seen. Is the SB636 eyebox better then TT525, ZCO527, SB525 or even Vortex RG3 which is surprisingly good at 36. My previous scopes were various SB's, Premier and ZCO527 and this time I opted for a budget scope. As I drove home from the range the other day, it suddenly dawned on me that RG3 never annoyed me once during my whole range session out to 600 yards (range limit). I get easily annoyed with scopes, especially those that have a finicky eyebox demanding perfect technique from me. I am an amateur for fuck sake, I should be allowed to buy myself out of shitty habits. Is the SB636 my solution? Could you please give us a reference?

I am on the verge of getting another ZCO, however, if the SB636 has a considerably more forgiving eyebox at comparable magnification, then SB636 it is. I always liked SB's turrets more then the ZCO turrets anyway and SB service shop in VA is fantastic to deal with, which is an important deciding purchase factor as they all seem to need something at some point.

Much appreciated
Click to expand...

I do not have any experience behind the ZCO. I have looked behind a Tangent Theta 5-25 but not the newer 7-35x.

Compared to the S&B 5-25, Leupold Mark 5 (5-25 or 7-35), Kahles (6-24, 5-25), any Nightforce ATACR, any Vortex I have looked through, the S&B 6-36 blows them all out of the water. I can’t say if it is better than a Tangent Theta or ZCO. I don’t have enough experience with those two brands shooting at distance to give you a good comparison, but you will not be short sold buying a S&B 6-36, especially with the new Christmas tree reticle they offer. I am very impressed and very happy with my purchase.
 
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#2,281
secondofangle2 said:
My SB 6-36 was better eyebox than my TT5-25, so after I replaced the useless Zeiss S5 on my 375/50 w a 6-36, the TT 5-25 on my other gun got sold and a 6-36 went in its place too.

Problem is, in 2 years when the FOVgate is resolved in USA, I will probably be upgrading. Keep your eye on the PX
Click to expand...
I wonder if there will be a “fix” available at the S&B service centre once the 2 years is up to save having to sell the OG scopes.
 
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#2,286
So is there a consensus on whether or not this scope is worth a look over the NF 7-35? I will be in the market soon for something on this level and price range.

Also, what is the difference in FOV between the European scopes and US versions? Website just lists one FOV.
 
#2,288
Ah, so the US version still has a slight advantage except at the very top. Now just need to figure out which one is easier to get behind.

Thanks for the link.
 
#2,294
nick338 said:
So is there a consensus on whether or not this scope is worth a look over the NF 7-35? I will be in the market soon for something on this level and price range.

Also, what is the difference in FOV between the European scopes and US versions? Website just lists one FOV.
Click to expand...
Depending on price it is worth taking a look, I am wrapping up my review that includes these two scopes, the NF 7-35 having come out circa 2018 is still a very impressive design. Choose based on reticle and be confident both will deliver where it counts.
 
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#2,295
Awesome, will look forward to the review. I'm not a tree reticle fan, so the MIL-C and P5F are both on the list and I've probably had more NF scopes than all others combined so I wouldn't hesitate to grab one, but I've had my share of Schmidt's as well so will be interesting decision for sure.
 
#2,298
#2,300
GBMaryland said:
All scopes in the United States have the same limitation because a competing patent exists in United States.

Schmidt is not the only company that is affected by this, so are all other scopes sold in the United States
Click to expand...
Am I missing something? Where did he indicate in that post that he was unaware?
 
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