.308 Winchester

[XP1K]

Where do you acquire such cases? And how does one not assume pressure but affordably on a common man’s budget verify through testing where the pressure is at?

American reloading has them. I picked some up a while back. Got 5 loads through them right now and still going strong. I started annealing them after the third firing. Anneal every time now.

I haven't leaned on them hard yet. Just running 45gr of varget under several different 175/178's. 20" 9 twist lilja, they're running 2690ish. Sd around 8-9 most days. I think the longest shot string I put together in one session was 20 shots.

I've got a pound of 2000-mr left somewhere. I'll probably burn it after I run out of varget. I shot a lot of that powder under 168 smk's in my old factory 12 twist. It's good for speed in a 308.

It looked like 45-90 was loading 48gr of 2000-mr under his 200.20x. My load for a 168 was 47gr. He's leaning on it pretty good.

 

[memilanuk]

Yeah but he clearly stated the 2740 fps load was from standard cases, not the hybrid. And I also have my doubts. about how safe that load is.

Yup. There *is* a 'higher' node for the 30" barrels, around the 2720 range. Last time I tried getting there, I blew forty percent of the primers out of virgin Lapua Palma brass, and the remaining cases were pretty much wrecked as well. So 2740 out of a 22" factory barrel? Not buying it.

Everyone in F class must be scratching their heads wondering why they need a barrel 10" longer to achieve those speeds.

Bingo.

 

[45-90]

The 2740 fps for 200 gr SMK is from standard Lapua cases as shown in the picture with the empty cases...
The picture of the rifle with the Chronograph has the 2740 fps velocity on the chronograph screen!
Don't believe that...you don't want to believe.
It's not for those who don't want to do it, or improve upon the 308 Win. No one cares of ya do or don't, but it's real, & it's there for those who do...called choice.

My 30" runs the same load at 2856 fps for 200 gr SMK Lapua cases. And is my go to load for 308 LR. And 230 Atip at 2620 fps is a good 308 load, as is 225 eldm at 2675 with Lapua brass.

With hybrid cases the 200 gr has reached a maximum of 2951 fps, And the 225 Eldm 2719 fps. 3255 fps with 168 match with 30" barrel, as max...but I don't run the hybrid cases there.

Here is an 18" AR 10 shooting the same load 200 gr SMK around 2670 fps Lapua brass...do not recommend a steady diet in an AR but 200 at 2620 fps in an 18" AR 10 is doable, with Lapua brass.

And the 200 gr SMK 10 shot group in 22" 308 9 twist, Lapua brass, with a light weight hunting rifle.

 

[Mean_Man]

American reloading has them. I picked some up a while back. Got 5 loads through them right now and still going strong. I started annealing them after the third firing. Anneal every time now.

I haven't leaned on them hard yet. Just running 45gr of varget under several different 175/178's. 20" 9 twist lilja, they're running 2690ish. Sd around 8-9 most days. I think the longest shot string I put together in one session was 20 shots.

I've got a pound of 2000-mr left somewhere. I'll probably burn it after I run out of varget. I shot a lot of that powder under 168 smk's in my old factory 12 twist. It's good for speed in a 308.

It looked like 45-90 was loading 48gr of 2000-mr under his 200.20x. My load for a 168 was 47gr. He's leaning on it pretty good.

Once you start leaning on them, I'd love it if you started a thread about your experience with them.

 

[Mean_Man]

American reloading has them. I picked some up a while back. Got 5 loads through them right now and still going strong. I started annealing them after the third firing. Anneal every time now.

I haven't leaned on them hard yet. Just running 45gr of varget under several different 175/178's. 20" 9 twist lilja, they're running 2690ish. Sd around 8-9 most days. I think the longest shot string I put together in one session was 20 shots.

I've got a pound of 2000-mr left somewhere. I'll probably burn it after I run out of varget. I shot a lot of that powder under 168 smk's in my old factory 12 twist. It's good for speed in a 308.

It looked like 45-90 was loading 48gr of 2000-mr under his 200.20x. My load for a 168 was 47gr. He's leaning on it pretty good.

Would you be so kind as to link to the product? I looked on their website and couldn't find them, I looked both at primed brass and unprimed brass offerings.

 

[45-90]

Where do you acquire such cases? And how does one not assume pressure but affordably on a common man’s budget verify through testing where the pressure is at?

I get them through American Reloading, make sure ya get the hybrid cases cause sometimes both are in stock.
I have been reloading these hybrid cases for several years, in various calibers, just fired some today in 8.6 Blackout, with 350 gr Maker at 1806 fps, in a 6.5 Twist Only, no 3 twist that's limited to 1050 fps or the bullet comes apart, with disastrous results.
I have gone over the procedure and process of forming hybrid cases dozens of times on this site to those interested...everything from case forming, lubes, neck turning into the shoulder, or complete shoulder, annealing, to produce consistent cases with no pinch points...to stuck case removal, load testing, etc.
But it's scattered all over the site.

The few that are interested get drowned out by all the negative responses.... but others have taken the information over the last couple of yrs and applied it to their shooting endeavors...and are doing it successfully, and reporting back.
The thing is ya don't have to run the hybrid cases at max to see a nice improvement.
I have loaded some pretty zippy losds in hybrid cases 5 times and primer pockets still tight.
I have several thousand hybrid cases in different calibers,and not working on the 308 at this time, but am working on the 8.6 Blk, 338 Spectre, & 510 Whisper calibers.

 

[XP1K]

American reloading has them. I picked some up a while back. Got 5 loads through them right now and still going strong. I started annealing them after the third firing. Anneal every time now.

Would you be so kind as to link to the product? I looked on their website and couldn't find them, I looked both at primed brass and unprimed brass offerings.

277 Fury / 6.8x51mm SIG Primed "Hybrid" Case - 100ct

ALL CASES CONTAIN STUCK POWDER Pulled, Primed Brass - Casings may contain minor dents/scratches *All casing should be resized prior to loading

americanreloading.com

Says they are out of stock at the moment.

 

[Mean_Man]

277 Fury / 6.8x51mm SIG Primed "Hybrid" Case - 100ct

ALL CASES CONTAIN STUCK POWDER Pulled, Primed Brass - Casings may contain minor dents/scratches *All casing should be resized prior to loading

americanreloading.com

Says they are out of stock at the moment.

Oh wait, I think I get it, you’re “just” necking up the .277 Sig cases to .308win?

 

[XP1K]

Oh wait, I think I get it, you’re “just” necking up the .277 Sig cases to .308win?

Yes. I hit them with an expander mandrel first, then cram them in a 308 die, and presto! 308 hybrid cases.

They'd probably make good 7-08's too. Or anything 308 based really.

 

[xsn10s]

I get them through American Reloading, make sure ya get the hybrid cases cause sometimes both are in stock.
I have been reloading these hybrid cases for several years, in various calibers, just fired some today in 8.6 Blackout, with 350 gr Maker at 1806 fps, in a 6.5 Twist Only, no 3 twist that's limited to 1050 fps or the bullet comes apart, with disastrous results.
I have gone over the procedure and process of forming hybrid cases dozens of times on this site to those interested...everything from case forming, lubes, neck turning into the shoulder, or complete shoulder, annealing, to produce consistent cases with no pinch points...to stuck case removal, load testing, etc.
But it's scattered all over the site.

The few that are interested get drowned out by all the negative responses.... but others have taken the information over the last couple of yrs and applied it to their shooting endeavors...and are doing it successfully, and reporting back.
The thing is ya don't have to run the hybrid cases at max to see a nice improvement.
I have loaded some pretty zippy losds in hybrid cases 5 times and primer pockets still tight.
I have several thousand hybrid cases in different calibers,and not working on the 308 at this time, but am working on the 8.6 Blk, 338 Spectre, & 510 Whisper calibers.

I remember asking you on how to reload these cases, but they were out of stock when I went to order. We need a sticky thread or whatever it's called on how to use the hybrid cases.

 

[nick338]

Settling in on a load I like for the M1A. Short range test (300 yards) , shot a 2.5" 10 rd group in unfavorable conditions. 2 degrees and very sunny but no wind. Mirage was so bad I could barely see the outline of the red circle.

Berger 175 OTM
40.5 grs H4895
CCI BR2
Virgin Lapua Brass
2.820 COAL

 

[Dave62677]

Midwayusa factory 2nd 169smk , alpha case once fired, 42.6 N540, #210M primer, 0.007 jump, 27” MTU pac-nor bbl

 

[Mean_Man]

That tight a group at that velocity is nice.

 

[Hondo64d]

Loaded up a series of five charges of StaBall Match pushing the 168gr TMKs increasing in .4gr increments. The intent was to find max. This group is the result. It measures .31”. Looks like I could pick any of those charges and have a great shooting load.

20” 1:10 Bartlein w/ Stealth Project Recon suppressor. Lapua Brass. CCI200. 2.070 BTO.

44.4gr - 2609
44.8gr - 2651
45.2gr - 2648
45.6gr - 2663
46gr - 2686

John

 

[Rob01]

Loaded up a series of five charges of N150 pushing the 168gr TMKs increasing in .4gr increments. The intent was to find max. This group is the result. It measures .31”. Looks like I could pick any of those charges and have a great shooting load. Though the burn rate charts show different, in my .308, N150 seems to have a burn rate nearly identical to Varget.

John

Good info. What velocities were you getting and what charge weight did you go up to?

 

[XP1K]

And how long is your barrel?

 

[nick338]

Anyone play with N550 in their .308? Quickload is telling me it will work well with heavies.

 

[Hondo64d]

Good info. What velocities were you getting and what charge weight did you go up to?

After checking my target, I just realized that I screwed up in my post. The powder WAS NOT N150 but rather StaBall Match. Edited to correct.

I have been using N150 quite a bit though, and it is nearly a grain for grain match for Varget in my .308.

John

 

[Mean_Man]

If a person couldn't find Reloader 15.5 TS, what would be the next best temp stable powder you think for .308? (or do you know of one thats even better than R15.5)

 

[stello1001]

Varget
Shooters world precision
H4895
Winchester staball match

 

[Rob01]

If a person couldn't find Reloader 15.5 TS, what would be the next best temp stable powder you think for .308? (or do you know of one thats even better than R15.5)

Varget.

 

[straightshooter1]

If a person couldn't find Reloader 15.5 TS, what would be the next best temp stable powder you think for .308? (or do you know of one thats even better than R15.5)

AR-Comp!

I've tried R15.5 and still have a couple pounds and I've tried quite a few others, to include Varget, H4895 and IMR-4065, which I found work quite well. But AR-Comp has been outstanding and it's temp stability is very good, which is important to me since I shoot in a wide rage of temperatures than can occur with a matter of a few hours here in the Phoenix, AZ area. In addition, the residue AR-Comp leaves behind is pretty easy to clean out of the bore. I think to some extent this is why Federal uses it in their premium cartridges pushing 168 and 175 SMK's.

Varget is great for temperature sensitivity, but it's a pretty dirty powder and it's really wears on the throat due to its high temperature burning.

 

[Rob01]

Varget is great for temperature sensitivity, but it's a pretty dirty powder and it's really wears on the throat due to its high temperature burning.

Never found either of those to be true. It’s actually pretty clean in my rifles and does nothing more to the throat as I am getting 8-10,000 rounds before rebarreling my .308 rifles. I have used Varget alone in my .308s for over two decades and continue to now.

 

[straightshooter1]

Never found either of those to be true. It’s actually pretty clean in my rifles and does nothing more to the throat as I am getting 8-10,000 rounds before rebarreling my .308 rifles. I have used Varget alone in my .308s for over two decades and continue to now.

Have you tried AR-Comp and actually compared it to Varget to see what the differences are?

 

[Rob01]

Have you tried AR-Comp and actually compared it to Varget to see what the differences are?

Nope. Never had a reason to use anything else but I know what dirty powder is and I know about throat wear so I don’t have to try something else to see how it works. I know I get neither with Varget in my .308s.

 

[straightshooter1]

Nope. Never had a reason to use anything else but I know what dirty powder is and I know about throat wear so I don’t have to try something else to see how it works. I know I get neither with Varget in my .308s.

Hmmm??? How can you know that you "get neither" when you never compared the two?

I like Varget too as it performed very well for me. But I did compare over a period of time and I found my data showed an edge for AR-Comp. I keep some Varget on hand just in case I run out of Comp and can't get any for some reason.

 

[XLR308]

AR-Comp!

I've tried R15.5 and still have a couple pounds and I've tried quite a few others, to include Varget, H4895 and IMR-4065, which I found work quite well. But AR-Comp has been outstanding and it's temp stability is very good, which is important to me since I shoot in a wide rage of temperatures than can occur with a matter of a few hours here in the Phoenix, AZ area. In addition, the residue AR-Comp leaves behind is pretty easy to clean out of the bore. I think to some extent this is why Federal uses it in their premium cartridges pushing 168 and 175 SMK's.

Varget is great for temperature sensitivity, but it's a pretty dirty powder and it's really wears on the throat due to its high temperature burning.

AR-COMP became my go to as well before I sold my 308win was primarily running 178amax 180 ballistic tips.
Need to get another 308win barrel spun up I miss not having one.

 

[Rob01]

Hmmm??? How can you know that you "get neither" when you never compared the two?

I like Varget too as it performed very well for me. But I did compare over a period of time and I found my data showed an edge for AR-Comp. I keep some Varget on hand just in case I run out of Comp and can't get any for some reason.

Because my rifles aren’t dirty and the barrels don’t burn out any shorter time frame than any other. You don’t have to try different things to know those two things are true.

And I wasn’t comparing Barget to anything. Just saying it’s not dirty or burns out your barrel faster than others

 

[XLR308]

Because my rifles aren’t dirty and the barrels don’t burn out any shorter time frame than any other. You don’t have to try different things to know those two things are true.

And I wasn’t comparing Barget to anything. Just saying it’s not dirty or burns out your barrel faster than others

I have read and heard people say AR-COMP is a really dirty powder as well but my experience has been the opposite.
It is mostly geared toward the 175gr and up in 308 and I guess it may be dirty if someone is running it with lighter bullets not sure.

 

[straightshooter1]

Because my rifles aren’t dirty and the barrels don’t burn out any shorter time frame than any other. You don’t have to try different things to know those two things are true.

And I wasn’t comparing Barget to anything. Just saying it’s not dirty or burns out your barrel faster than others

Well . . . ok. But I can tell you that AR-Comp is a lot cleaner than Varget and that it produces less fire cracking over a short period of time.

 

[straightshooter1]

I have read and heard people say AR-COMP is a really dirty powder as well but my experience has been the opposite.
It is mostly geared toward the 175gr and up in 308 and I guess it may be dirty if someone is running it with lighter bullets not sure.

I've use it with 155's to 210's and not seen any noticeable difference due to those weights.

I have/had some borescope pics saved somewhere for the Varget vs. AR-Comp. I haven't found them yet, but I must have them somewhere in my archives (I save too many pictures ). If I can find them, I'll post them.

 

[straightshooter1]

I have read and heard people say AR-COMP is a really dirty powder as well but my experience has been the opposite.
It is mostly geared toward the 175gr and up in 308 and I guess it may be dirty if someone is running it with lighter bullets not sure.

Here's a couple pictures of my Krieger barrel after a session at the range, I was struck by how it left what looked like just a light powder coating in the bore (am still looking for the Varget bore pics):

This is what that bore looked like after cleaning:

 

[JerkyFreak]

Compared to other powders I have used in my .308, Varget leaves very little residue and is much easier to clean the barrel than locally produced powders. Of it wasn't as expensive here, that would be all I would use. Unfortunately we don't get AR-COMP this side of the pond, but I doubt it could be better and still propell a bullet out the barrel.

 

[45-90]

Here is a 308 win barrel with 8000 rds on it using Varget powder only.
It was still shooting pretty good, but I changed 308 barrels every 8,000 rds, back in the day with lots of LR shooting at 1000 yds mostly and quite a bit at 1400yds.

I Don't use Varget much these days, but it still has application for average velocity loads, with accuracy.

 

[Mean_Man]

I know in a Johnny’s reloading YT video he tested AR Comp and the R15.5 TS and the AR comp was a close second in temp stability, I forget what other powders he tested. He was chilling ammo and had some warmed if I recall correctly then quickly loading and firing over a chronograph.

I was just wondering if the hive mind was aware of an equal or even better powder far as temp stability. Sounds like if I can’t find 15.5, then AR Comp is the next candidate.

I have heard about Varget and people loving it for a while but haven’t seen any testing where people are trying to control variables and get decent data but I’ll keep it in mind if I can’t source AR Comp, I’m looking to buy a few pounds of whatever for some Alpha brass soon is why I’m asking.

 

[stello1001]

So where is everybody finding ar comp these days

 

[37L1]

So where is everybody finding ar comp these days

Harder to find than 15.5.

 

[Rob01]

Here's a couple pictures of my Krieger barrel after a session at the range, I was struck by how it left what looked like just a light powder coating in the bore (am still looking for the Varget bore pics):
View attachment 8616248 View attachment 8616250

This is what that bore looked like after cleaning:
View attachment 8616253

Well there is your problem. You use a bore scope. lol looks don’t equate to accuracy.

AR Comp might be cleaner than Varget but that doesn’t make Varget dirty at all. I have used it in .308 loads with 168-178grn weights and .223 with 75 gun and never an issue with it being dirty since 1998. Same with any issues with barrels going before their time due to fire cracking. My practice .308 rifle has been through 9 barrels never pulled until around 8000 rounds or so.

 

[Rob01]

I know in a Johnny’s reloading YT video he tested AR Comp and the R15.5 TS and the AR comp was a close second in temp stability, I forget what other powders he tested. He was chilling ammo and had some warmed if I recall correctly then quickly loading and firing over a chronograph.

I was just wondering if the hive mind was aware of an equal or even better powder far as temp stability. Sounds like if I can’t find 15.5, then AR Comp is the next candidate.

I have heard about Varget and people loving it for a while but haven’t seen any testing where people are trying to control variables and get decent data but I’ll keep it in mind if I can’t source AR Comp, I’m looking to buy a few pounds of whatever for some Alpha brass soon is why I’m asking.

What the hell are you talking about with controlling data and decent data? lol Varget works period. I have over 80,000 rounds through rifles that prove it to me. Sorry I don’t have a YouTube channel but that is why I am here. It has a very good reputation with shooters as being temp stable and I used to live in CT and shoot matches around the country from frigid temps to over 100 degrees and never an issue setting up a load in CT and then flying somewhere. Never had a chrono at the matches so showed up with home data and shot matches and did very well so no issues with temp stability either. If you can find some then try it and you will see for yourself.

 

[nick338]

Exactly. I don't spit shine a barrel, clean a .308 tube every 200-300 rds, and I never break out a bore scope unless something drastic has changed on target. It's dirty again after the 1st shot and I'm putting 7-8 rds through it to foul it before I shoot anything meaningful on target anyway.

Not even sure why this is a conversation. Varget has been proven over and over, won countless matches, and I've never heard of anyone complain that it was dirty or ate their barrel. Are there other suitable options, sure, but that by no means turns Varget into something that it isn't.

 

[XLR308]

So where is everybody finding ar comp these days

Still leaning on the 20lbs I bought years back.
Haven't been shooting calibers with that burn rate much the last 7 years except for 6.5x47 with 130 hybrids running Varget, I need to work up a load for the 130 with AR-COMP.
I ran a ladder with it using 123CC and it ran up over 3000fps pretty easy before I saw any pressure sign.
Slightly cratered primer no heavy bolt lift and velocity was I believe 3036fps tested on new brass.

 

[straightshooter1]

Well there is your problem. You use a bore scope. lol looks don’t equate to accuracy.

AR Comp might be cleaner than Varget but that doesn’t make Varget dirty at all. I have used it in .308 loads with 168-178grn weights and .223 with 75 gun and never an issue with it being dirty since 1998. Same with any issues with barrels going before their time due to fire cracking. My practice .308 rifle has been through 9 barrels never pulled until around 8000 rounds or so.

Apparently, it depends on how one describes or defines "dirty".

 

[45-90]

I took the above 308 Win barrel with 8000 rds of Varget and 155 Lapua Scenar bullets with a bunch of firecracking, and cut its 26" length down, then cut off the chamber.

Which took most of the firecracking.

Re chambered the 8000 rd 308 barrel to AR 15 barrel in 30 RAR, with used parts, like a barrel extension, gas block, profiled the barrel, gas journal, drilled a gas port, etc.

Put it all together and it's now a 30 RAR in AR15 shooting 155 grs Lapua Scenars with excellent accuracy....just like when it was a 308 but using H335 .
The point is one can repurposed these 8000 rd barrel and they can have excellent accuracy for another 8000 rds. Incase anyone is interested in that endevor.

 

[Rob01]

Apparently, it depends on how one describes or defines "dirty".

Yes it does as Varget is far from dirty. CFE223 is dirty. lol AR Comp might be a little cleaner than Varget but I don’t know as I have never had a reason to use it but being a little cleaner doesn’t make Varget dirty by any means. I can shoot 250-300 rounds in a 2-3 day match and then go home and run 2-3 patches of Butch’s down the bore, wait 15 min, throw a brush down it a few times and then 2-3 more patches of Butch’s another wait and 2-3 clean patches and it’s clean. Not a lot of carbon fouling from Varget.

 

[Mean_Man]

What the hell are you talking about with controlling data and decent data? lol Varget works period. I have over 80,000 rounds through rifles that prove it to me. Sorry I don’t have a YouTube channel but that is why I am here. It has a very good reputation with shooters as being temp stable and I used to live in CT and shoot matches around the country from frigid temps to over 100 degrees and never an issue setting up a load in CT and then flying somewhere. Never had a chrono at the matches so showed up with home data and shot matches and did very well so no issues with temp stability either. If you can find some then try it and you will see for yourself.

I just meant he was recoding chilling ammo, recording temp, tossing it in the chamber and firing it quickly over a chronograph and recording the velocity for a few different powders and plotting the data on a chart to see which powder was least affected by temp swings.

 

[Rob01]

I just meant he was recoding chilling ammo, recording temp, tossing it in the chamber and firing it quickly over a chronograph and recording the velocity for a few different powders and plotting the data on a chart to see which powder was least affected by temp swings.

Something no one using the ammo would ever do while actually using it. lol So to me “testing” powder like that doesn’t really do much for me for actual use data. I got my data from using it in freezing temps and 100+ temps with it in my pack and mags as that is how I will actually be using it and I know how it will react. That said I understand some people need that scientific way so take all the info in and not just what some guy who freezes his ammo has to say. His info isn’t the only one that counts.

 

[nick338]

Here is some more real world data for anyone who gives a shit. Using the same load of H4895 in temperatures ranging from 2 degrees to 90 degrees, I have seen maybe a 5 fps difference in velocity.

 

[Phil McGrath]

Midwayusa factory 2nd 169smk , alpha case once fired, 42.6 N540, #210M primer, 0.007 jump, 27” MTU pac-nor bbl


View attachment 8612343

View attachment 8612348

I’m getting similar results from 42.2 IMR 4064 in a IMI Match case @ 2.87

 

[Mean_Man]

What the hell are you talking about with controlling data and decent data? lol Varget works period. I have over 80,000 rounds through rifles that prove it to me. Sorry I don’t have a YouTube channel but that is why I am here. It has a very good reputation with shooters as being temp stable and I used to live in CT and shoot matches around the country from frigid temps to over 100 degrees and never an issue setting up a load in CT and then flying somewhere. Never had a chrono at the matches so showed up with home data and shot matches and did very well so no issues with temp stability either. If you can find some then try it and you will see for yourself.

I’ll say listening to Hornady’s ballisticans (sp?) discuss a lot of their observations, one mentioned Varget being their go to powder in a bolt gun. That and powder and bullet combo made the biggest difference than anything. Meaning all the load development outside of that made less of a difference far as jump, charge weight etc.

(But that higher charge almost always trended to larger dispersion) also that 3-5 shot groups statistically mean next to nothing… you need like 20-30 shots to have data worth going off of due to the noise.

I’m posting this to just backup what you were saying about the powder and basically sounds like you’re right and I’m just a noob learning and so yeah.

 

[45-90]

I have used Varget in 308 with a lot of success over many years....

But it was the worst powder ever tried in a 16" 308 AR 10.
The S/D was 49.5 over just 6 shots with Varget being absolutely the most inconsistent powder ever tried in this rifle horrible stuff in this case.