Rifle Scopes Razor gen 3 upgrade

[Schw15]

I've been really thinking about upgrading my razor gen 3 but not sure if it's worth the squeeze. Richard from CST pointed me in the direction of the zco527. This is a lot of money to me to drop on a scope so I figured I would ask the hide there opinions and people who have both or have the higher end of scopes. I've been around ATACR and looked threw a zco 5 years ago for like 1 min so I have no experience.

I shoot elr style matches that's it. I like the razor gen 3 but this is the only rifle I own and so I figured I mine as well have the best I can can since I'm limited to 1.

 

[4O6shootist]

Zco will give you a slight edge in mirage control and glass quality at edges, maybe bit sharper contrast. You have a 6-36, the only zco I'd see as an "upgrade" would be the 8-40 for your elr purposes. The razor gen3 is competitive against the 527, with the zero comp only being marginally better in some areas.

 

[Schw15]

Zco will give you a slight edge in mirage control and glass quality at edges, maybe bit sharper contrast. You have a 6-36, the only zco I'd see as an "upgrade" would be the 8-40 for your elr purposes. The razor gen3 is competitive against the 527, with the zero comp only being marginally better in some areas.

I didn't even take a look at the 8-40. I'm caught in a weird spot it seems like with the razor. I think they a top notch scopes

 

[4O6shootist]

I didn't even take a look at the 8-40. I'm caught in a weird spot it seems like with the razor. I think they a top notch scopes

They're a solid optic for sure!

 

[Hennig]

It’s an upgrade you’d do because you want to, not because you need to.

 

[DownhillFromHere]

I own both (ZCO 527 and gen-3 Razor). The ZCO is marginally better in low light or high mirage situations. It is NOT, in my opinion, $1000+ better. That opinion has been shared by several others who have looked through the scopes side by side in high-mirage situations.

Also, Vortex warrants their scopes forever, period. ZCO? Not so much. ZCO has provisos in their warranty to allow them to deny coverage in quite a few circumstances, and reticle illumination is only covered for two years. My reticle light got flaky after three.

I actually sought to sell my ZCO after getting my third gen-3 Razor, but it has found a permanent home on my Vudoo .22, where it works better for me than the Razor.

 

[Schw15]

I own both (ZCO 527 and gen-3 Razor). The ZCO is marginally better in low light or high mirage situations. It is NOT, in my opinion, $1000+ better. That opinion has been shared by several others who have looked through the scopes side by side in high-mirage situations.

Also, Vortex warrants their scopes forever, period. ZCO? Not so much. ZCO has provisos in their warranty to allow them to deny coverage in quite a few circumstances, and reticle illumination is only covered for two years. My reticle light got flaky after three.

I actually sought to sell my ZCO after getting my third gen-3 Razor, but it has found a permanent home on my Vudoo .22, where it works better for me than the Razor.

That is new info and very helpful to me. I didnt realize they did that on warranty specially for the price. I appreciate the info

 

[MikeMiller]

I shoot a mile plus pretty regularly with my gen3 Razor. I have not seen a scope better or more reliable to get me to even think of changing. I teach a lot of classes and routinely do cold bore shots at a mile. Of course I only take the shot when I see the conditions are perfect. lol. The Gen3 adjustments have alas been spot on when paired with my Fury AB solution

 

[Schw15]

I appreciate the info don't get me wrong I love my Razor gen 3 but I was thinking maybe there was room for improvement. Warranty I think is huge in today since everything cost so much to replace anymore.

 

[MikeMiller]

Warranty with Vortex is best. I had illumination go out in older gen1 3-18 and it was back to me so fast and free my head rattled more than usual

 

[Schw15]

I really like the zco mpct1x reticle. Idk of anyone else making a reticle like that

 

[4O6shootist]

I really like the zco mpct1x reticle. Idk of anyone else making a reticle like that

MilC

 

[Islas82]

I have a Mil C ATCR on my AR 6.5 CM that I really like but the MPCT1X is a better reticle in my opinion with more of the information that am looking for like .5 holds.

I had a G3 and it’s one hell of an optic but the ZCO is just another level, 1K better? Only you can know that.

 

[CK1.0]

I’ve had 3 different RG3s and now run a ZCO 527 MPCT-1X.

IMHO the swap/upgrade was worth it to me because of the reticles, as my eyes/brain never really vibed with the EBR-7D and it always felt like all those little.2mil hash marks everywhere were more distracting than really useful. But everything else about the Razors is neck and neck IMHO and if Vortex came out with an RG3 with a simpler non-Xmas tree reticle I’d have no problem going back to one and would buy one tomorrow.

If the reticle doesn’t bother you, the RG3 is a great scope.

 

[JayOpticspecialist]

It's just like anything else. put your hands on both and see what suits you better. it's as much personal preference as anything else. what turrets do you like better, what reticle options suit you better, and what looks better optically to your eye.

 

[Schw15]

I was able to look at the zco 527 and 840 I do believe the 840 is an amazing scope and offers more over the 527..... the 527 is still amazing but not sure it's worth over the Gen 3 but the 840 would be in my short time with them. Only issue is I would be giving up a lot of internal travel 36 mils down to 27 mils.

 

[Islas82]

I was able to look at the zco 527 and 840 I do believe the 840 is an amazing scope and offers more over the 527..... the 527 is still amazing but not sure it's worth over the Gen 3 but the 840 would be in my short time with them. Only issue is I would be giving up a lot of internal travel 36 mils down to 27 mils.

Spoke to Jeff at ZCO a few days ago. I had questions regarding turret travel and he recommended up to 30 moa incline to try and squeeze the most out of it. scope should still be able to zero at 100yds without putting too much pressure on internals.

 

[DeathBeforeDismount]

I went from ZCO to gen 3 razor back to ZCO. Thought the thinner reticle ( at the time) would help but damn if ZCO doesn't make a perfect scope. If you got the money I would do it.

ZCO warranty is every bit as good as vortex so don't let that stop you. MPCT1x and 10 Mils is pure sex.

 

[DownhillFromHere]

ZCO warranty is every bit as good as vortex

• The illumination in my ZCO 527 went flaky after three years. ZCO Warranty specifically states electronics are covered for two years. Vortex warranty is lifetime for everything.
• I called about sending my ZCO scope in to be checked. Guy said sure, send it in. I asked for a shipping label. Nope. Send it on your dime. Vortex provided labels for both of my early-release gen-3 Razors to have their gummy turrets "fixed."
• ZCO warranty explicitly excludes damage from negligence or disaster. Vortex covers both. My son bought a used 1st-gen Strike Eagle several years ago... short version is the scope had a damaged lens; Vortex sent a new one next day.

So, in each company's written coverage and in my actual experience, ZCO warranty is NOT as good as Vortex.

 

[CK1.0]

• The illumination in my ZCO 527 went flaky after three years. ZCO Warranty specifically states electronics are covered for two years. Vortex warranty is lifetime for everything.
• I called about sending my ZCO scope in to be checked. Guy said sure, send it in. I asked for a shipping label. Nope. Send it on your dime. Vortex provided labels for both of my early-release gen-3 Razors to have their gummy turrets "fixed."
• ZCO warranty explicitly excludes damage from negligence or disaster. Vortex covers both. My son bought a used 1st-gen Strike Eagle several years ago... short version is the scope had a damaged lens; Vortex sent a new one next day.

So, in each company's written coverage and in my actual experience, ZCO warranty is NOT as good as Vortex.

Fair.

Vortex is so good with their customer service and warranty stuff, that with everyone else it can almost seem like we're getting less for our money (sometimes, even when spending more).

That said, Vortex probably sells, IDK, maybe ~200,000? more scopes than companies the size of operations like ZCO or Tangent Theta.

The "alpha glass" Co's are a niche of a niche, cream of the crop fancy rifile shit for guys already deep in the rabbit hole lol, but they're ants compared to a boot-size company like Vortex who sells like 10,000 shitty red dots + 1000 Diamondback/Strike Eagle tier scopes + 20 Razors for every scope one of these smaller fancy-pants outfits move. So CS shit should be great, since they can afford it (and it appears they can judging by the free hats and stickers and shit I've received when dealing with them lol).

Economy of scale, I guess..?

I'm not trying to be an apologist for ZCO because I have/run one either, but I can wrap my head around why a smaller company wouldn't front you a shipping label if the issue is known to be outside the warranty, is all.

Leupold CS jerked me around and made me get a little loud to get a pre-paid shipping label out of them on a fresh out of the plastic scope... so clearly company-mindset and how companies choose to act matters as well.

Did ZCO fix the illumination (and did they whack you or was the price fair) is what we need to know..?

 

[DeathBeforeDismount]

• The illumination in my ZCO 527 went flaky after three years. ZCO Warranty specifically states electronics are covered for two years. Vortex warranty is lifetime for everything.
• I called about sending my ZCO scope in to be checked. Guy said sure, send it in. I asked for a shipping label. Nope. Send it on your dime. Vortex provided labels for both of my early-release gen-3 Razors to have their gummy turrets "fixed."
• ZCO warranty explicitly excludes damage from negligence or disaster. Vortex covers both. My son bought a used 1st-gen Strike Eagle several years ago... short version is the scope had a damaged lens; Vortex sent a new one next day.

So, in each company's written coverage and in my actual experience, ZCO warranty is NOT as good as Vortex.

ZCO is a European company (made there atleast) and as such, there are restrictions on what they can do in writing. What they "Claim" and what they actually do aren't the same thing.

I have known a ton of people (myself includes) who have warrantied Vortex, ZCO and TT scopes. Every time it has been similar. Easy process, quick turnaround.

Vortex gen 3 scopes cost significantly less to manufacture. In fact, Vortex can afford to replaced them a few times and still break even. Think about that for a minute. This is direct from one of their most well known sponsored shooters.

ZCO is a much smaller company, with a smaller product line and what I assume is, much lower margins. Its also a significantly better product overall.

I have never had to pay for shipping to ZCO and honestly, if I got to pay $30-50 to ship a $4000 optic to get repaired, I and anyone else who has one can afford it. It doesn't move the needle. Unless bitching about non material differences is the goal.

 

[Basic user]

I've been really thinking about upgrading my razor gen 3 but not sure if it's worth the squeeze. Richard from CST pointed me in the direction of the zco527. This is a lot of money to me to drop on a scope so I figured I would ask the hide there opinions and people who have both or have the higher end of scopes. I've been around ATACR and looked threw a zco 5 years ago for like 1 min so I have no experience.

I shoot elr style matches that's it. I like the razor gen 3 but this is the only rifle I own and so I figured I mine as well have the best I can can since I'm limited to 1.

What distances are you shooting? Are you competitive now? Are you wanting to win more often? And can I ask what you shot before the G3 Razor?

 

[Hennig]

ZCO is a European company (made there atleast) and as such, there are restrictions on what they can do in writing. What they "Claim" and what they actually do aren't the same thing.

I have known a ton of people (myself includes) who have warrantied Vortex, ZCO and TT scopes. Every time it has been similar. Easy process, quick turnaround.

Vortex gen 3 scopes cost significantly less to manufacture. In fact, Vortex can afford to replaced them a few times and still break even. Think about that for a minute. This is direct from one of their most well known sponsored shooters.

ZCO is a much smaller company, with a smaller product line and what I assume is, much lower margins. Its also a significantly better product overall.

I have never had to pay for shipping to ZCO and honestly, if I got to pay $30-50 to ship a $4000 optic to get repaired, I and anyone else who has one can afford it. It doesn't move the needle. Unless bitching about non material differences is the goal.

I don’t think he said the ZCO warranty was bad, just not equally as painless as the Vortex.

 

[DownhillFromHere]

Fair.

Vortex is so good with their customer service and warranty stuff, that with everyone else it can almost seem like we're getting less for our money (sometimes, even when spending more).

That said, Vortex probably sells, IDK, maybe ~200,000? more scopes than companies the size of operations like ZCO or Tangent Theta.

The "alpha glass" Co's are a niche of a niche, cream of the crop fancy rifile shit for guys already deep in the rabbit hole lol, but they're ants compared to a boot-size company like Vortex who sells like 10,000 shitty red dots + 1000 Diamondback/Strike Eagle tier scopes + 20 Razors for every scope one of these smaller fancy-pants outfits move. So CS shit should be great, since they can afford it (and it appears they can judging by the free hats and stickers and shit I've received when dealing with them lol).

Economy of scale, I guess..?

I'm not trying to be an apologist for ZCO because I have/run one either, but I can wrap my head around why a smaller company wouldn't front you a shipping label if the issue is known to be outside the warranty, is all.

Leupold CS jerked me around and made me get a little loud to get a pre-paid shipping label out of them on a fresh out of the plastic scope... so clearly company-mindset and how companies choose to act matters as well.

Did ZCO fix the illumination (and did they whack you or was the price fair) is what we need to know..?

I agree with everything you say in your post, and for the same reasons.

I'm not a Vortex fanboy, nor am I bashing ZCO. All I wanted to do is point out the written warranty differences and my experience with each brand. I've owned or still own at least a dozen Vortex scopes... there are three gen-3 Razors in my safe and I just bought a Strike Eagle 3-18x44 to stick on an AR - in no small part because of all the discounts to be had on Vortex optics, but also because they just get the job done for a very competitive price and... warranty.

To answer your question re illumination: I didn't send the scope in. I actually called about doing so not because of illumination but because my rifle fell off my cart about two feet onto a gravel drive after 2nd stage at a match. I missed a number of targets I should have hit afterward, so I wondered if I had damaged it (negligence!).

I just didn't get a good feeling during and after that call, so I took no action. The illumination kinda sorta works; it's just not bright enough to use on shaded targets in full sun and batteries die pdq. And I discovered that I had used my .223 calculator profile during the match, which is pretty darn close to the 6BR profile under 600-700 yards . The scope's tracking was and is fine.

It may well be that ZCO would have taken care of illumination gratis had I sent it in.

DBD is right about the thinner optic of the gen-3 Razor (compared to ZCO 527) being a disadvantage in some circumstances. For that exact reason, I swapped the ZCO from my 6BR to my Vudoo .22, and the Vudoo's Razor went to the 6BR. Works better.

 

[rothgyr]

Did ZCO fix the illumination (and did they whack you or was the price fair) is what we need to know..?

I'm really wanting to know this. What a company is legally bound to do vs what they will do actually says a lot about them to me.

Vortex gen 3 scopes cost significantly less to manufacture. In fact, Vortex can afford to replaced them a few times and still break even.

This is likely a bit more due to the cost of manufacture in Japan vs Europe. Compare the prices of grand pianos from Yamaha and Shigeru Kawai to Hamburg Steinway, Fazioli, and Petrof, and you'll see similar cost differences. Same with Seiko watch movements and ETA movements from Europe.

I still think the ZCO is likely better designed and made, but the ease of replacement is likely more due to geographical costs. I bet ZCO could do the same if they made their scopes out of Japan too, and the quality wouldn't be wildly different.

 

[Schw15]

What distances are you shooting? Are you competitive now? Are you wanting to win more often? And can I ask what you shot before the G3 Razor?

I shoot elr matches like krg nightforce and light class. I shot bushnell xrs3 a athlon cronus and a minox LR. Then a few other lower grade scopes. I feel like I'm competitive

 

[Chickentoast]

I bought a 2nd G3 and sold a 527 and a TT 525. If I was still shooting ELR frequently, I'd want to try the 840, the TT 735, and the Kahles 540. Not for need, but for want.

 

[CSTactical]

• The illumination in my ZCO 527 went flaky after three years. ZCO Warranty specifically states electronics are covered for two years. Vortex warranty is lifetime for everything.
• I called about sending my ZCO scope in to be checked. Guy said sure, send it in. I asked for a shipping label. Nope. Send it on your dime. Vortex provided labels for both of my early-release gen-3 Razors to have their gummy turrets "fixed."
• ZCO warranty explicitly excludes damage from negligence or disaster. Vortex covers both. My son bought a used 1st-gen Strike Eagle several years ago... short version is the scope had a damaged lens; Vortex sent a new one next day.

So, in each company's written coverage and in my actual experience, ZCO warranty is NOT as good as Vortex.

I agree with everything you say in your post, and for the same reasons.

I'm not a Vortex fanboy, nor am I bashing ZCO. All I wanted to do is point out the written warranty differences and my experience with each brand. I've owned or still own at least a dozen Vortex scopes... there are three gen-3 Razors in my safe and I just bought a Strike Eagle 3-18x44 to stick on an AR - in no small part because of all the discounts to be had on Vortex optics, but also because they just get the job done for a very competitive price and... warranty.

To answer your question re illumination: I didn't send the scope in. I actually called about doing so not because of illumination but because my rifle fell off my cart about two feet onto a gravel drive after 2nd stage at a match. I missed a number of targets I should have hit afterward, so I wondered if I had damaged it (negligence!).

I just didn't get a good feeling during and after that call, so I took no action. The illumination kinda sorta works; it's just not bright enough to use on shaded targets in full sun and batteries die pdq. And I discovered that I had used my .223 calculator profile during the match, which is pretty darn close to the 6BR profile under 600-700 yards . The scope's tracking was and is fine.

It may well be that ZCO would have taken care of illumination gratis had I sent it in.

DBD is right about the thinner optic of the gen-3 Razor (compared to ZCO 527) being a disadvantage in some circumstances. For that exact reason, I swapped the ZCO from my 6BR to my Vudoo .22, and the Vudoo's Razor went to the 6BR. Works better.

It's too bad that you decided not to send it in at the cost of the label, IMO it's reasonable to send them in something to be repaired at the cost of shipping on something on an item that has a specified 2 year warranty which they probably would have covered regardless of it being after 2 years. Vortex is the one company that has nearly a no fault warranty which is awesome, I don't think they let customers purposely damage it which is what happened in the past.
I've seen ZCO fix problems for free that was damaged caused by the customer accidentally, it's on a case by case basis as some people do goofy stuff to their equipment.

I've had customers make a mistake an order the wrong thing, they asked me for a label which shifts all the liability on us.
I'll happily exchange something for another product that they made a mistake on, but they will need to pay the insurance and shipping from them back to us. If we make the mistake then I'll send them a label. I've had products not packaged properly and damaged on the way back to us from a customer when we have no fault on this at all, so we would need to fight with the shipping company and insurance for something no fault of our own.

The shipping cost is not the problem...

-Richard