Vudoo closed the doors…

[j-huskey]

Oh, I know! Been a while since I shot with you at ORSA IBS 600. Hope you're well.
I just got off the phone with my bud at Anschutz and I gotta take him a bucket full of cash later this week.
Once you go straight (pull) you won't go back.

Then u can souvenir me your horribilus vudoo bolt handled thing... just sayin...

 

[Krob95]

Just posted on IG

 

[Jagerwerks]

Just posted on IG View attachment 8683291

How hard would this have been to post a couple of weeks ago instead of just ghosting all of your customers?

 

[ma smith]

Two more weeks ... !

 

[Jeffd]

I doubt this will ever happen!

 

[Jagerwerks]

I think it's pretty telling that the picture only shows their handgun. I don't see them doing much in the rimfire space from this point forward.

 

[bobby1028]

I think it's pretty telling that the picture only shows their handgun. I don't see them doing much in the rimfire space from this point forward.

There's quite a bit more competition/established smiths in the 2011 world than there is in custom rimfire...I think they're going in the wrong direction also.

 

[W6SPK]

Wasn't it 4 weeks about 4 weeks ago?

 

[j-huskey]

I think they're going in the wrong direction.

That's the consensus of most of us, AND they fit the truism, "you cant fix stupid.." they were born that way, and have had multiple relapses. Jmho

 

[kthomas]

I thought it was incredibly peculiar when they announced they were getting in to the 2011 game.

That raised a lot of my eyebrows.

 

[lash]

I thought it was incredibly peculiar when they announced they were getting in to the 2011 game.

That raised a lot of my eyebrows.

Okay, I just have to ask. How many of your eyebrows did it raise?

 

[kthomas]

Okay, I just have to ask. How many of your eyebrows did it raise?

At least 5 of them...

 

[Adam B]

There's quite a bit more competition/established smiths in the 2011 world than there is in custom rimfire...I think they're going in the wrong direction also.

Isn’t that the truth. Their pistols are basic and other than being slightly cheaper than the average 2011 they offer very little.

 

[Kadams1563]

There's quite a bit more competition/established smiths in the 2011 world than there is in custom rimfire...I think they're going in the wrong direction also.

Yes there is but not at the price point they are building pistols. People really like them.

 

[Dead Eye Dick]

Four weeks, Six weeks, Eight weeks, a dollar
All who doubt the future of Vudoo, stand up and holler.

(Paraphrased high school cheer from the 1960’s

I hate to be a doubter, but it’s hard to be optimistic over this situation.

 

[kthomas]

Four weeks, Six weeks, Eight weeks, a dollar
All who doubt the future of Vudoo, stand up and holler.

(Paraphrased high school cheer from the 1960’s

I hate to be a doubter, but it’s hard to be optimistic over this situation.

The good news is that there seems to be a lot of competition coming to the .22lr action market.

 

[TheOE800]

The good news is that there seems to be a lot of competition coming to the .22lr action market.

This time next year I’d love to be reading reviews of all these new actions and decide about building out another .22LR or not.

Why do people have more than one Vudoo for instance? I’m curious. I’ve got a 24” Bartlein plain muzzle Vudoo comp style gun, but I keep a much less costly CZ457 16” suppressor ready gun for shenanigans, newer shooters, loaning out and such.

 

[Rob01]

Doesn’t hurt to have a back up.

 

[RAVAGE88]

As stated, a quick update, but I want to be very careful due to the "telephone game" that can and does take on a life of its own. I have formed a parent LLC and have continued to polish the model and plan. I have no definitive answers yet as far as liking or disliking what the numbers say, but I am continuing to actively pursue the opportunities and I'll only share this info on SH. I don't and won't do mainstream social media.

MB

This didn't age well....I joined FB .

MB

 

[J_Reacher]

This didn't age well....I joined FB .

MB

I left FB over a decade ago and haven’t looked back. Of course I miss all the new announcements from small businesses and developers but pick it up second hand on the various forums so it works out… eventually.

I don’t envy you having to “use” that platform to reach your clientele. But, whatever works

 

[lash]

This didn't age well....I joined FB .

MB

It’s interesting that FB started out as a young person app for college kids and others. Now it’s mostly used by old folks and businesses as a solid platform. The shooting community uses it extensively for communication.

I joined last year since I run PRS22 matches and people always asked.

 

[shoot4fun]

It’s interesting that FB started out as a young person app for college kids and others. Now it’s mostly used by old folks and businesses as a solid platform. The shooting community uses it extensively for communication.

I joined last year since I run PRS22 matches and people always asked.

I had no intention of ever being a FB'er but when I worked in the firearms industry most all my dealers used it for promotional announcements. Once I retired and FB clamped down on the gun shops I could have left it but, by then, too many out of town cousins and friends were on there as friends and I just left it running.
Honestly, as successful as the Vudoo has been in the past, I see @RAVAGE88 not having to rely on it for too long as word will get out quickly that he is in business.

 

[Dead Eye Dick]

I had no intention of ever being a FB'er but when I worked in the firearms industry most all my dealers used it for promotional announcements. Once I retired and FB clamped down on the gun shops I could have left it but, by then, too many out of town cousins and friends were on there as friends and I just left it running.
Honestly, as successful as the Vudoo has been in the past, I see @RAVAGE88 not having to rely on it for too long as word will get out quickly that he is in business.

Out of town friends and especially relatives. it’s the way we keep in touch.

However, I’ve been threatened,/kicked out of more groups than I can remember. (once in a group about BOATS for asking politely a radical member to please not bring politics into the discussion. They had posted a pride flag and post. got a bunch of us kicked out over that one. Before I was deleted, the individual was bragging about how many people she/he got kicked out. Gloating actually. ). Obviously progeny of a mange ravaged canine.

Anyway, I stick with it, like it or not. Easiest way to keep up with upcoming matches, and other PRS activities.

 

[LR1845]

View attachment 8675141

From a modern rifle perspective, that’s a purdy rifle. Jus’ sayin’…

^^^THIS!!! I want the comp edition with the steel fore end.

 

[shoot4fun]

^^^THIS!!! I want the comp edition with the steel fore end.

Yes it is and we will just have to wait for the production line units to make it to the USA.
I didn't wait for it. Just got my 1727 in a red ATX chassis Friday, along with four spare mags.
Already have a 1727 GRS Hybrid.
Love it except for the barrel channel of the chassis made the barrel look small so I ordered up a ATX Long Bridge from MHSA.
I'll post it up when I get all the pieces together.

 

[Tokay444]

That's the consensus of most of us, AND they fit the truism, "you cant fix stupid.." they were born that way, and have had multiple relapses. Jmho

It’s a lot easier to slap some some Cheely and EGW parts together, put your name on the box and charge $3.5 grand for very little effort, vs what it takes to make a precision rimfire system for the same price. Even when someone else is doing the heavy lifting.

 

[Tokay444]

Isn’t that the truth. Their pistols are basic and other than being slightly cheaper than the average 2011 they offer very little.

And yet, people still love them and wait for a long time to get their order.

 

[Tokay444]

I left FB over a decade ago and haven’t looked back. Of course I miss all the new announcements from small businesses and developers but pick it up second hand on the various forums so it works out… eventually.

I don’t envy you having to “use” that platform to reach your clientele. But, whatever works

Anyone running their business strictly on Facebook, without a website, hasn’t earned your money.

 

[MDof2]

:RimX enters the chat:
"Hey fuckers. Whatcha'll talkin bout?"

 

[shoot4fun]

:RimX enters the chat:
"Hey fuckers. Whatcha'll talkin bout?"

Maybe they are talking about screwed up bolts on their Rim-X actions?
That seems to be a big topic, even after "the fix".
I thought about getting a Rim-X until I started looking at things like the cost of magazines. It's one thing to drop big money on a build but having to pay $125 each for mags is quite another.

 

[Jagerwerks]

Maybe they are talking about screwed up bolts on their Rim-X actions?
That seems to be a big topic, even after "the fix".
I thought about getting a Rim-X until I started looking at things like the cost of magazines. It's one thing to drop big money on a build but having to pay $125 each for mags is quite another.

Have you ever handled or used one of their mags? It is actually pretty insane how nice they are and how well they work. Other manufacturers are asking upwards of $150 for billet magazines.

 

[shoot4fun]

Have you ever handled or used one of their mags? It is actually pretty insane how nice they are and how well they work. Other manufacturers are asking upwards of $150 for billet magazines.

Honestly no, but I never had any issue with feeding using Vudoo mags at 3/$100.
I am too old and broken down for NRL/PRS games and hi-cap 22LR mags are not necessary kit for me. I tried L3i mags in a CZ457 and they were not my thing. Fit was very tight in the bottom metal. Heard and read some negatives on the L3i Vudoo mag as well.

 

[MDof2]

I’m sure I’m the outlier then with 2 actions, 6 mags, and maybe 8ish thousand rounds between them and I can remember exactly 1 FTF.
YMMV.

Don’t get me wrong. I’m not shittalking Vudoo. They make a great action. Just adding color commentary.

It’s unfortunate to see what’s happening with them right now and what future they may have, or not. Time will tell, but it doesn’t look promising.

 

[BigJimFish]

Seeing some chatter that Vudoo closed up shop

Four weeks, Six weeks, Eight weeks, a dollar
All who doubt the future of Vudoo, stand up and holler.

(Paraphrased high school cheer from the 1960’s

I hate to be a doubter, but it’s hard to be optimistic over this situation.

So, I've been following this Vudoo mess a few days now since it showed up on my radar. Wow, sure have learned a lot about how things ran at Vudoo between this and Mike's thread. Since, like everybody else, I couldn't seem to get a hold of the Vudoo people I contacted Three Sigma manufacturing, the company who basically builds the Vudoo action (not technically, they just make all the parts that matter but effectively the same thing.) What I learned from the CEO of Three Sigma is that he has been on the phone with Vudoo ownership within the day and that they are planning to continue selling Vudoo .22lr actions and rifles after the move to OK. Furthermore, as many know, Three Sigma also manufactures the same .22lr action for MPA for their Matrix Pro Rimfire rifle and that relationship is also ongoing.

Of course, Vudoo and MPA are Three Sigma's customers so he did not go further into their buisness relationship. I did ask if he ever intended to sell direct to the public and, unsurprisingly given they are a pretty large scale aerospace manufacturer, that is not a buisness model they are interested in. So, you can expect to continue to see Vudoo type .22lr actions come out of Three Sigmas shop and be sold through Vudoo and MPA.

Obviously, I am less than impressed with the way Vudoo seems to be handeling the move, their former employees, and their communications with their customers, especially those with currently ongoing orders. Their PR, if they didn't fire all those people, also evidently has a complete lack of basic google alerts as they are blowing up and have issued no response at all. I also don't love when "investors" show up anywhere as a general rule. However, I do not anticipate an extended time where you won't be able to buy these actions with the quality of manufacture the Three Sigma is putting in to them, a quality that, from what I have seen, has been maintained despite all the turbluance on the retail side.

 

[Dead Eye Dick]

Never in my wildest dreams did I imagine that my stupid little paraphrased high school cheer would garner so much attention.

Like Big Jim, I’ve seen reports from Three Sigma that production is going to be restarted. What I was not aware that Three Sigma was forwarding actions directly to MPA. I’ve heard separately that MPA actions come from Vudoo and not directly from Three Sigma. I think that MPA getting their actions directly from the company that builds the main components of the actions directly is a very good thing.

Now, my experience from the past is simply when small builders especially in the special interest parts of the shooting sports go quiet, it’s a darned good sign that they are G O N E. I hope this is not the case. However this is the reason for my pessimism.

 

[Redfisher60]

So, I've been following this Vudoo mess a few days now since it showed up on my radar. Wow, sure have learned a lot about how things ran at Vudoo between this and Mike's thread. Since, like everybody else, I couldn't seem to get a hold of the Vudoo people I contacted Three Sigma manufacturing, the company who basically builds the Vudoo action (not technically, they just make all the parts that matter but effectively the same thing.) What I learned from the CEO of Three Sigma is that he has been on the phone with Vudoo ownership within the day and that they are planning to continue selling Vudoo .22lr actions and rifles after the move to OK. Furthermore, as many know, Three Sigma also manufactures the same .22lr action for MPA for their Matrix Pro Rimfire rifle and that relationship is also ongoing.

Of course, Vudoo and MPA are Three Sigma's customers so he did not go further into their buisness relationship. I did ask if he ever intended to sell direct to the public and, unsurprisingly given they are a pretty large scale aerospace manufacturer, that is not a buisness model they are interested in. So, you can expect to continue to see Vudoo type .22lr actions come out of Three Sigmas shop and be sold through Vudoo and MPA.

Obviously, I am less than impressed with the way Vudoo seems to be handeling the move, their former employees, and their communications with their customers, especially those with currently ongoing orders. Their PR, if they didn't fire all those people, also evidently has a complete lack of basic google alerts as they are blowing up and have issued no response at all. I also don't love when "investors" show up anywhere as a general rule. However, I do not anticipate an extended time where you won't be able to buy these actions with the quality of manufacture the Three Sigma is putting in to them, a quality that, from what I have seen, has been maintained despite all the turbluance on the retail side.

This is probably the most informative and logical post I've read on this subject so far.

 

[Tokay444]

Awful lot of chest beating happened in here if all they’re doing is indeed moving.

 

[LuvDog]

Even when they re-open it’s still not just a move. None of the current staff or people who made Vudoo are going.

So once they get open, we’ll have to see the quality of the products they produce and what they decide to keep in their lineup. Maybe it will be about the same and maybe it won’t.

 

[Downtown]

Even when they re-open it’s still not just a move. None of the current staff or people who made Vudoo are going.

So once they get open, we’ll have to see the quality of the products they produce and what they decide to keep in their lineup. Maybe it will be about the same and maybe it won’t.

Tokay444 has made his position and agenda on this subject pretty clear in the other threads he's commented on. I wonder what his connection to Vudoo is. Doesn't seem to be a Mike Bush fan.

 

[David Lott]

Even when they re-open it’s still not just a move. None of the current staff or people who made Vudoo are going.

So once they get open, we’ll have to see the quality of the products they produce and what they decide to keep in their lineup. Maybe it will be about the same and maybe it won’t.

Hopefully this is received the way I'm thinking about it in my head but I wouldn't worry too much about quality, they're moving to Oklahoma and the one advantage that they have there for workforce is most of those employees would be farm-raised individuals. if you're not raised on a farm this won't make sense if you are you'll understand that you make things happen, you see the problem you find a solution and you take care of it there, ain't no towing the tractor to town to get it fixed at the local mechanic shop, you deal with it there on the spot with what you have. If Me not being a gunsmith or machinist, just an avid shooter can figure this system out and make it as good if not better than Vudoo themselves did I don't think the quality will suffer without the original people there, again not saying anything negative toward previous employees just stating what can be. My goal in all this is to take care of my customers and to help vudoo get set back up to help their customers, if we can do that we all win, we all move forward and the shooting sport continues to grow. Lots of good things came from this, so I look at it as a positive development.

 

[RAVAGE88]

Hopefully this is received the way I'm thinking about it in my head but I wouldn't worry too much about quality, they're moving to Oklahoma and the one advantage that they have there for workforce is most of those employees would be farm-raised individuals. if you're not raised on a farm this won't make sense if you are you'll understand that you make things happen, you see the problem you find a solution and you take care of it there, ain't no towing the tractor to town to get it fixed at the local mechanic shop, you deal with it there on the spot with what you have. If Me not being a gunsmith or machinist, just an avid shooter can figure this system out and make it as good if not better than Vudoo themselves did I don't think the quality will suffer without the original people there, again not saying anything negative toward previous employees just stating what can be. My goal in all this is to take care of my customers and to help vudoo get set back up to help their customers, if we can do that we all win, we all move forward and the shooting sport continues to grow. Lots of good things came from this, so I look at it as a positive development.

Just thinking out loud and I'm tracking on the farm thing, but let's take a moment to reflect on a few things:

• Closed up shop with no prior notice, fired the employees without allowing them to properly prepare for what it meant to be suddenly unemployed
• No one to answer phones, email
• No attempts to communicate with a large number of customers with deposits and full payments in place
• A single post in an exclusive group that, "there's crazy rumors going around" and then vanish
• IG and FB posts about moving, turn off the ability for people to comment and then vanish again
• Two, maybe three people have spoken to Three Sigma, whom has the most to gain out of anything, and the ensuing reports back to the community are quite rosy as if there's nothing wrong with how any of this was handled
• An obvious arrogant position that, because they re-open, everyone is expected to forget about all the above and just believe that people and products will somehow be as good or better
• And lastly, "the new employees are farm raised and because they can work on a tractor, they can easily build as good or better guns than the employees that spent quite a while at their trade but were suddenly fired with no notice"

So first off, what about any of the factual points above is chest beating?

And what is it about vendors that have something to lose, but then say, "I'm just trying to take care of my customer," but it's the very customers that were mistreated and taken for granted in the first place? Is it really about the customers or is it about something else?

I can list quite a number of companies that crapped on its customer base in far less severe ways and the customer base walked away from them.

MB

 

[David Lott]

Just thinking out loud and I'm tracking on the farm thing, but let's take a moment to reflect on a few things:

• Closed up shop with no prior notice, fired the employees without allowing them to properly prepare for what it meant to be suddenly unemployed
• No one to answer phones, email
• No attempts to communicate with a large number of customers with deposits and full payments in place
• A single post in an exclusive group that, "there's crazy rumors going around" and then vanish
• IG and FB posts about moving, turn off the ability for people to comment and then vanish again
• Two, maybe three people have spoken to Three Sigma, whom has the most to gain out of anything, and the ensuing reports back to the community are quite rosy as if there's nothing wrong with how any of this was handled
• An obvious arrogant position that, because they re-open, everyone is expected to forget about all the above and just believe that people and products will somehow be as good or better
• And lastly, "the new employees are farm raised and because they can work on a tractor, they can easily build as good or better guns than the employees that spent quite a while at their trade but were suddenly fired with no notice"

So first off, what about any of the factual points above is chest beating?

And what is it about vendors that have something to lose, but then say, "I'm just trying to take care of my customer," but it's the very customers that were mistreated and taken for granted in the first place? Is it really about the customers or is it about something else?

I can list quite a number of companies that walked on its customer base in far less severe ways and the customer base walked away from them.

MB

If you don't know by now you certainly will in the future, I am all about positivity, I do not deal in negativity of any sort, shape or fashion, the world is full of it just look around and you can find it immediately. I don't live in that world I live in the world that makes things happen where we take the bad and we turn it into good, now everything you stated is factual and true and could have been handled better yes I agree but it is what it is, I can't fix the past I can only work on the future and the outcome. My goal is to take care of my customers, take care of existing vudoo customers and pray for the best. I would like to see this blossom into a community of trust and it's going to take somebody taking the first step towards that goal and taking initiative to make that happen otherwise we'll end up here in a few years again and nothing has changed, that's not the world I want to live in.
I challenge everyone reading to think in the same fashion, this world only changes when we are all on the same page. I will always fight for what is true and noble.

 

[RAVAGE88]

If you don't know by now you certainly will in the future, I am all about positivity, I do not deal in negativity of any sort, shape or fashion, the world is full of it just look around and you can find it immediately. I don't live in that world I live in the world that makes things happen where we take the bad and we turn it into good, now everything you stated is factual and true and could have been handled better yes I agree but it is what it is, I can't fix the past I can only work on the future and the outcome. My goal is to take care of my customers, take care of existing vudoo customers and pray for the best. I would like to see this blossom into a community of trust and it's going to take somebody taking the first step towards that goal and taking initiative to make that happen otherwise we'll end up here in a few years again and nothing has changed, that's not the world I want to live in.
I challenge everyone reading to think in the same fashion, this world only changes when we are all on the same page. I will always fight for what is true and noble.

I hear you; positivity is a good thing and making something better of it is certainly the goal and you might notice, not many people are even focused on them anymore.

But how's this for a scenario to put things in context.... A Doctor fails to show up on the day of a scheduled surgery and gave no notice, nor did anyone reach out from his office. On the day of the surgery, a guy shows up and is questioned by the patient, "who are you!?" The guy says, "oh, the Doctor couldn't make it, but I was raised on a farm and fixed my own tractor a time or two, so you'll be in good hands because I can do it just as good or better."

The good thing is though; he exuded positivity.

MB

 

[j-huskey]

Mike & David's posts. Only time will tell and we shall see.
Everything done in darkness is revealed in the light. What is revealed remains to be seen.
So....
The waiting game continues.

While we wait, previously disclosed things are reviewed, rethought, reconsidered, and the customer base thought of yesterday evolves.
While we wait, new things may be revealed, and again, the customer base thought evolves yet again, until, perhaps the business reopens, perhaps it doesn't, again, we shall see.
Time will tell.

 

[RAVAGE88]

Mike & David's posts. Only time will tell and we shall see.
Everything done in darkness is revealed in the light. What is revealed remains to be seen.
So....
The waiting game continues.

While we wait, previously disclosed things are reviewed, rethought, reconsidered, and the customer base thought of yesterday evolves.
While we wait, new things may be revealed, and again, the customer base thought evolves yet again, until, perhaps the business reopens, perhaps it doesn't, again, we shall see.
Time will tell.

Exactly. And so far, from where I sit, time did tell, and I have reason to remain highly protective of this community.

Thanks, Dude, your post is spot on.

MB

 

[Tokay444]

I hear you; positivity is a good thing and making something better of it is certainly the goal and you might notice, not many people are even focused on them anymore.

But how's this for a scenario to put things in context.... A Doctor fails to show up on the day of a scheduled surgery and gave no notice, nor did anyone reach out from his office. On the day of the surgery, a guy shows up and is questioned by the patient, "who are you!?" The guy says, "oh, the Doctor couldn't make it, but I was raised on a farm and fixed my own tractor a time or two, so you'll be in good hands because I can do it just as good or better."

The good thing is though; he exuded positivity.

MB

 

[j-huskey]

Brother David, SIR.
Jfwiw, I was raised on a farm, and after a successful career away, have returned to it, with plans to die on it.
And, again, jfwiw, I had 8 aunties and uncles, 28 first cousins, and 35 second cousins in the dusty state of Oklahoma. My grandparents, those aunties and unkz, 15 of the 1cuz, and 12 of the 2cuz are currently buried there, and more will join them, some i will joyfully be glad when they do... just ssyin.
I respectfully to you state, that a full third of those relatives do not 100% resemble your okie farm boy, and another 3rd do not 50-60% resemble them either.
I would NOT want to work any of the %'ers in any job, much less buy a product they built.

The remnant of relatives I feel warmly to would not work for a company who treated the employees like vudoo did, and the other self-respecting okies i know wouldn't either.

Some of my crack head meth head cousins might work for vudoo after prison eos, but only with intent to steal everything not secured strongly to the company floor.

I know, there are exceptions to every rule, but, my experience with okie types doesn't exactly mesh with your example.
Uncle Sam's travel agency moved pop out of OK, and he gratefully chose not to return there. He's not buried there btw.

Your hypothesis is admirable, but, highly unlikely. In the career I retired from and other jobs I've done, to include the farm, it is a known that 2-3 years on the job are required to produce the highest level of employee, and unfortunately, very unfortunately,
Vudoo doesn't have 2-3 years with okie farm boys to recover his business to the level of quality vudoo once held.

I hate it for them.

Jmho and jmhe

No offense intended by this communication Brother David.

 

[Dead Eye Dick]

I feel like I need to jump into this tractor thing. Brenda and I owned a small farm in Downsville, Louisiana. Plus her sister and Borther-in-Law along with their two sons farm well over a thousand acres in Morehouse Parish. (Corn, beans and cattle, formerly cotton).

Now David, I don’t want to make you angry, as I may need the services you provide and I sure do like your windage knobs. However, I have to use the “W” word about your tractor analogy. We do a lot of maintenance such as oil/fluid changes and minor repairs but even on our little Fords and newer John Deere, have a major issue we load it on the trailer (or call the dealer and he loads it on his trailer) and hauls it into the shop. (Things like injector pumps are something only a well trained specialist dives into and even the local dealers don’t mess with those). Even the the very large equipment, though lots of maintenance is done in the shop, when something big comes along, which would be anything that shuts the tractor down, the dealers have the equipment to load it up and haul it to the shop. That equipment looks as big as a house but yep, it gets shipped from Collinston to Mer Rouge, unless it’s possible that the shop can send a technician out to do a minor repair.

The days of the old Ford 8N’s are long gone. Even our 30 pto hp John Deere though it ran like a top, when any major issue such as the hydraulics going down, the shop had to split the case and it is a major repair issue.

As far as 8N fords. If our meandering busy body federal government ever actually did anything that really protected the populace, it would be to have all 8N Fords, called back and smelted down. In any type of hill country, Those Tractors are Killers. (And if ours had made a quarter turn more, My funeral would have been held in 1977.)

 

[j-huskey]

As far as 8N fords. In any type of hill country, Those Tractors are Killers. (And if ours had made a quarter turn more, My funeral would have been held in 1977.)

I got the 8n tee shirt and 145 stitches.... (1969)

 

[steve123]

I know a airgun creator and manufacturer who builds one the most stout in the industry.
He's a nice guy and I like him.
BUT he's very annoying to deal with as far as CS and the gun I was sponsored with was problematic in various ways so I gave the gun back for him to fix and he kept it.
Nah I'd never buy one.

I also know another guy who builds the best BR airguns money can buy who is also nice but is the opposite and a pleasure to deal with.
I wouldn't think twice about buying another of his guns in spite of the expense.