It’s from Capstone. I’m fairly certain they are using QL as well, but slightly different inputs(?). I started a profile with Gordon’s Reliading Tool, but have more work to do. I have a 36” on order and I’ll probably send a few dummies for them to chamber with. No time rite now and bbl is on back side of hill.
New Berger 375 bullet 410 hybrid
- Thread starter Sleepertruckguy
- Start date
I'm gonna load some of these up. Where do they like to be in relation to the lands? Are they like the old Bergers and they're finicky about seating depth?
Appears the answer is yes. They are classified as VLD, which means Berger suggest using CBTO(
). .010 jam, .040 jump, .080 jump, .120 jump. Best 3 shot group wins the chance to tweak by .002-.005”, bla bla bla. I’m sure you’ve read it somewhere.
That’s interesting considering they’re marketed as a hybrid but you say they’re a vld
That's from Berger, but it's not from QL, it's from an actual test barrel.
Yep, looks like they're LRHT to me, too. They typically aren't that sensitive to seating depth, but usually do best with a little jump. I believe their typical recommendation is to start at .015 off, and try in additional .015 increments - 0.30 off, .045, and up to .060 off the lands, then fine tune on either side of the best result. (However, I have no experience with these - most of what I shoot are their 230 and 245gr .308 dia., and 300gr .338 dia. LRHTs in 300PRC, 300NM, and 338NM).
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Phil at Berger suggested to use their(Berger’s) VLD(very low drag)seating method. Personally, I don’t use CBTO and don’t wish to use 24 rounds for the process.
Berger suggested the charge weights may have come from QL and may be a bit conservative.
Maybe they use(d) QL to work up a profile before they shot them? I don’t know, just going off a friendly call to them for info and sharing it here. Getting a little hot in here, time for me to go out and shoot.
I have a dummy round loaded to 0.020 inches of the lands.
I’m actually very happy with my 390ATIP load so if these things give me any grief at all, I’m gonna quit messing with them
If they shoot decent, I will try them at 2500 yards and see how big of a vertical group there is measure each velocity and then do the same thing with the ATIP and make up my mind
I’m actually very happy with my 390ATIP load so if these things give me any grief at all, I’m gonna quit messing with them
If they shoot decent, I will try them at 2500 yards and see how big of a vertical group there is measure each velocity and then do the same thing with the ATIP and make up my mind
Possibly. I’ve never known them to actually publish data from QL, but they do use it because Bob ran a theoretical load through it on the phone with me last week. But, he was careful to distinguish it wasn’t their data and was purely theoretical. If they published it (ie sent it out to you), I’d be surprised if they hadn’t shot it, but you could be right. I just know he was very careful to distinguish their data (which he sent me) vs what he told me he got on QL with a different load (which he did not send). This was 300NM data with a 245 LRHT.
I’m confused. Not sure who Bob is. I was just sharing what I found out about the new 410gr hybrids bc no one seemed to have any published data. I’ve been getting load data tables from Berger for a ton of their bullets including the 245LRHT for years. I also use XXL Reloading and am feverishly trying to get the hang of GRT. Please know I am self taught and only started hand loading 5 years ago with 6.5CM.
Bob is Phil’s Tech Support cohort at Berger. You have a 50% chance when you call, Bob, or Phil (unless they have someone new recently). You mentioned Phil, so I figured you knew Bob as well. And all I am saying is that the chart you posted is most likely their own data, not QL. I mean it could be QL, but they don’t usually make complete charts like that and publish them until they’ve run them and collected their own data. But I could be wrong…
I can now confirm that the 410s actually do exist...
I bought a few hundred to play with.
I bought a few hundred to play with.
I'm going to try N570 for my 37XC. I was good at 120gr for the ATips, so will probably start at 115 gr and work up - guessing at landing somewhere in the upper teens.
The VLD method seemed to me to be not correct for a hybrid design. I reached out to Berger this morning and Phil responded that the standard hybrid method should work. I usually start at .015" off the lands then go up at .003" increments - because you can usually find a sweet spot within ~15 to 20 thousandths. He said their standard hybrid method is to go up at .015" increments, pick the best, then go to .005" on either side to see if it gets better.
So, some conflicting information.
Yeah, I don’t play seating depth games in 5000s increments. That is within the variability of the base to ogive of the bullet: noise
If these ones I loaded up at approximately 0.020 inches off don’t shoot tomorrow, I will try some at 0.075 or so and then call it quits if it’s not shooting acceptably
As I have said before, if loads were sensitive to 0.005 inches of seating depth, factory ammo would never shoot good
I do admit that it was quite a surprise to me that the 390 likes to be 0.1 inches off. But that is probably a result of over 30 years of brainwashing to believe that being up there in the lands is where I need to be
If these ones I loaded up at approximately 0.020 inches off don’t shoot tomorrow, I will try some at 0.075 or so and then call it quits if it’s not shooting acceptably
As I have said before, if loads were sensitive to 0.005 inches of seating depth, factory ammo would never shoot good
I do admit that it was quite a surprise to me that the 390 likes to be 0.1 inches off. But that is probably a result of over 30 years of brainwashing to believe that being up there in the lands is where I need to be
If I loaded to 4.515" in new Peterson brass, the junction of the shank and the boattail would be up in the neck about 0.100" - that is, it would be loaded too long, with too little neck support. Maybe even 0.150" too long. So this reported COAL demands some explanation.
So yeah, I THINK most are having their 375CT barrels custom chambered to their own liking. I have two and they were both chambered for the CE400 LAZER. One is too shallow for reasonabe thinking, and the other has the 410’s touching at 4.465”. So I loaded several powders at 4.450”. RL-50 got me the best group and speed. 5 shot pressure test produced 11.8/4.0 and 45fps shy of my target speed of 2950. I agree the 4.515” seems a bit ambitious, but haven’t played with those numbers yet.
Yeah, still confused. I only use data sheets for guidance. To be honest: If It Is To Be, It Is Up To Me(ten two letter word sentence I live my life by)
You can make the throat as long as you want, but that doesn’t make the bullet shank longer or the case length longer, which means you’re going to have the boattail up in the neck with an insufficiently supported projectile
It doesn’t matter how long your throat is, you can’t load them to 5 inches long because the projectile won’t even be in the neck at that length.
As I said, in a factory new unfired Peterson case, at 4.515 inches overall length, only about 3/4 of the neck is occupied by the shank and the other quarter is occupied by the boattail which isn’t making contact with the neck
It doesn’t matter how long your throat is, you can’t load them to 5 inches long because the projectile won’t even be in the neck at that length.
As I said, in a factory new unfired Peterson case, at 4.515 inches overall length, only about 3/4 of the neck is occupied by the shank and the other quarter is occupied by the boattail which isn’t making contact with the neck
I get you. I think not everyone strives for 100% bearing surface in the neck. The trade off is more case capacity which may produce a desired velocity. I do start with 100% plus around additional .010” into the shoulder. But I’ll also chase the lands as erosion dictates. I rarely get to 3/4 before barrel is shot out. I am fairly new to this, and feel you may be outta my league. I ran some today, cleaned and prepped the cases and gonna go shoot/test some more tomorrow, and next day too.
Yes. I’m a newbie extraordinaire. I have a friend helping me build a profile for the 410’s, but he’s on vacation and I’m swamped with my job. I spill haven’t played with syringe and water yet. Are you doing that for case cap?Yes - I get lost in that particular Discord
And since I know my brethren on the Hide don’t like three shot groups, I let the barrel cool for 10 minutes and stacked two more in there for you.
This is seriously the best result I have ever had both in terms of group, standard deviation, throwing a load together and having it be right the first time. I am absolutely gobsmacked. That group is well below quarter MOA.
This is seriously the best result I have ever had both in terms of group, standard deviation, throwing a load together and having it be right the first time. I am absolutely gobsmacked. That group is well below quarter MOA.
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Very nice and I'm hoping for the same! I'd hoped to do some initial load development this week, but I'm swamped with work. I'm heading out to a private range next Thursday, so it will probably be then that I give a range report.
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And the high one was the first shot if that matters. Otherwise the group size would be basically 0MOA.
I hope Doc USMC retired is looking and I invite him to go back and point out how I consistently poo poo this bullet for the past year or more
And to him, I say “when the fax change I change my mind. What do you do, sir?”
I hope Doc USMC retired is looking and I invite him to go back and point out how I consistently poo poo this bullet for the past year or more
And to him, I say “when the fax change I change my mind. What do you do, sir?”
The version of GRT I have doesn't have the 37XC in the database, and I haven't taken the time to figure out how to add it. I'm going off of the load I was working on with the 390 ATips. I'll be dropping it a fair amount as an initial load and working up at probably a grain of powder at a time. I had 120gr of N570 working for SDs, so I'm thinking of starting at like 115gr.
To be fair, it actually measures at 3/8 inches.
I got a little excited because I was comparing it at distance to the 390 a tip for shot group beside it lol
I got a little excited because I was comparing it at distance to the 390 a tip for shot group beside it lol
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I never thought that once. Lol.
Well done. It took me 138.0 of H50 to get 2878 avg. but group was shit(1.5”) SD:8.1 with 36” K&P.
N568 with 130gr was almost identical numbers. The RL-50 gave me the best numbers on this initial pressure testing session. Today I ran 3 charge weights between 138.5 and 139.0 and found a node at 138.8-139.0. 2946&2944 which this barrel loves. Shot sub MOA.
What altitude do you do your testing in? You’re using inches, so I’m assuming here in the USA
my DA today was about 5500. Temp 65 degrees F, 4000ish feet above sea level. And yeah, sorry for the "Yankee units"
But....I don't think DA matters a whole lot for zero and projectile flight at short distance.....somebody correct me if I'm mistaken
But....I don't think DA matters a whole lot for zero and projectile flight at short distance.....somebody correct me if I'm mistaken
Yankee units? You mean freedom units.
I was just curious about the 5 grains of powder discrepancy. I am in the swamp of South Florida at sea level with average 60%RH
The humidity that counts is the powder humidity and I measured it in the new canister at 52% relative humidity and a temperature of 65° prior to loading these rounds.
I have done previous extensive testing and found that water does not escape a loaded case in any appreciable amount, despite one year of widely fluctuating temperatures.
So my presumption always is that the relative humidity of the powder or better said it’s water content remains what it originally was as long as the primer is seated tightly, and the bullet is sealed in the neck. I use imperial wax to seat and seal my bullets in the neck
I have done previous extensive testing and found that water does not escape a loaded case in any appreciable amount, despite one year of widely fluctuating temperatures.
So my presumption always is that the relative humidity of the powder or better said it’s water content remains what it originally was as long as the primer is seated tightly, and the bullet is sealed in the neck. I use imperial wax to seat and seal my bullets in the neck
Understood. I’m in the HCAC industry and keep reliading shop between 40-50%RH religiously. Confidently believing I don’t have 5 grains additional moisture than you, I am wondering what altitude above sea level you test. I am at 5ft. Colorado is 5000 ft. Just curious, that’s all.
No. A few passing storms, but we’ve been in low 90’s for weeks now.
10 day forecast is no rain. Good for the sand berms. Gonna go see how the 410’s fly at the mile tomorrow. 2-10 winds.
Yeah, for sure. I get there about 7 and set up cams. I only have 19 410’s(36”) and 25 407’s(34”). Then 2 hours back home.
Lucky you. It's 3.5hrs for Rick and I. Add another hour for @ Schütze.
I think @lash also has a 3hr drive.
To spend our time more wisely, we're heading up to Arena at the end of the month for a practice weekend. Gonna try and learn the range a little better.
Hopefully, that will help for the June ELR match
More like 4 hours, but it’s still fun for 2 hours or so of decent shooting in the winter before the soup mirages at Immokolee.
I’m looking forward to the 5-1/2 hours to Arena.
I was going to give you guys a bunch of good-natured shit about having to drive so far to shoot ELR, but then I realized that my last trip out to the desert was 6 hours each way
EDIT: And having lived in FL for 20 years, I know the mirage... I've got a video that's rendering now about the mirage on the desert trip. Insane
Nice. I talked to Aaron a few weeks ago about doing the weekend up there again this year. I guess not. Not enough interest or what? There has been almost 30 the last couple years.
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