Note that there’s a normal distribution curve there if plotted. There’s a group of three there encompassing over 50% that consists of 406.40-406.60+. That’s essentially 406.55 +/- 0.15. Which is 0.04% variation of total weight.
New Berger 375 bullet 410 hybrid
- Thread starter Sleepertruckguy
- Start date
Ok. Thank you all again. So im thinking that when I have 1 or 2 rounds that blow up my ES, is most likely the almost 1gr between those 2 created the -20fps and +20fps on an average 40 shot list. I’ve asked some if it’s ok(normal) to remove the high and low from calculations.
Yeah man, I’m only trying to help when I say you remind me of me 20 years ago: I would find some small variable and think that if I eliminated it and the one after it and the one after it that I would tighten everything up by just making everything more uniform. The fact is, it’s the barrel and the bullet and the shooter and the combination of powder and bullet that matters. If you’re not getting the results that you want, you gotta change the load entirely or the barrel. Like different powder significantly different charge different bullet new barrel.
Sorting these bullets at this level of variability is just gonna cause you a headache and a bunch of frustration and waste a lot of time and money
Finally, there is a learning curve here, and sometimes replacing your barrel speed you along the curve faster than anything else. Many times I have tried to make a barrel do something that it was not optimized for simply because I didn’t want to waste the existing barrel or wait on a new one.
Sorting these bullets at this level of variability is just gonna cause you a headache and a bunch of frustration and waste a lot of time and money
Finally, there is a learning curve here, and sometimes replacing your barrel speed you along the curve faster than anything else. Many times I have tried to make a barrel do something that it was not optimized for simply because I didn’t want to waste the existing barrel or wait on a new one.
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@secondofangle2 for regular shooting I don't sort anything but if I'm shooting an ELR match I will.
I really don't think it makes any difference but once or twice a year it doesn't take long to sort primers and bullets for 100 rounds so if it mitigates any variation it's worth it, could be the difference of a miss or hit.
I really don't think it makes any difference but once or twice a year it doesn't take long to sort primers and bullets for 100 rounds so if it mitigates any variation it's worth it, could be the difference of a miss or hit.
Thank you for being sensible and reasonable while sharing your knowledge. I do appreciate that over getting roasted. I took your advice with the 36” barrel and went back to square one with the CE400 Lazers it was chambered for. Once it got up to 2940fps the 3 shot groups went to .40”, done. I have a new barrel coming this fall and I will take this rig and load out to Texas as a backup. I also tried some 8133 I had laying around and 229.0 chrono’d 2968fps and also had .40” 3 shot group with better horizontal. Bummer it’s not around anymore. I’m gonna save it for next 34”barrel and the 410’s.
Understood. I’m treating this ELR Clinic like a match in respect to equipment. It would suck if someone is teaching you something and the rounds I’m sending have a different idea. I just want to blame myself for any short comings and learn from it. Sorting did not take much time. Sitting there staring at the numbers with my wheels spinning took more. Still grappling with the fact not a single one hit 407.0gr. I think these are the most expensive 375CT rounds I have ever purchased. Thanks again.
Do not worry about things that are out of your control. As long as you know what you have, that’s all that you need.
If sorting gives you the warm and fuzzy's have at it.
I haven't seen any real improvement and I did see a larger weight variation in my 400gr Lazers. I'd have to check my notes but IIRC it's almost 2 grains, (399-401 gr) I do the same and batched them in .1 increments and pulled from light to heavy. If you had the lightest one right beside the heaviest you might see some added vertical at distance but it's not going to be major.
The consistency is more important than the actual weight and in the scheme of things that's such a small percentage it's basically negligible.
Your first sentence is a misconception. Yes, I've been testing things is a structured way for a long time, but I'm only providing numbers from Litz's "Modern Advancements In Long Range Shooting, Volume 3". If you only read one of them, read that one. The whole series is provided at their classes and you can often find sets for sale. That book also has stats for typical Velocity and BC spreads at the ELR match you're headed to. They're not nearly as rigorous as I'd expected. Knowing when you can stop running from the Bear and move on to the next thing is extremely useful.
According to that book, there is zero correlation between BC or Bullet speed and bullet weight. It's not a surprising result. The Velocity should go down, but not by as much as a quick kinetic energy calc would suggest because peak pressure will go up with a heavier bullet, then BC should go up with weight. They cancel enough to at least drop into the noise. One of the knocks on the ATips is their weight distribution is generally larger than the Hybrids. It's to be expected, the ATips are circumcised to add the tips and all those length differences seen in the Hybrids are snipped off.
That being said, I think there can be value in pushing the truly weird to the end of the box. This is a relatively common practice. If you have to adjust the shoulder bump for that batch of cases, the cases with multiple bumps are marked and go to the front of the box as foulers. Same with seating depth. Use the already marked cases to check and set the seating depth. Drop a case and ding the neck, hit it with the mandrel again and put it at the front of the box. Anything feels different on seating, front of the box. Spill powder dropping it in the case and have to recharge it, assume you didn't get all of the first charge out and put it at the front of the box. Primer seating feels off, front of the box.
On weight sorting in general, a tip to speed up the sorting and reduce errors is to work with just differences rather than 5 digits every time. Select one randomly and zero the scale with it. Set it aside. Weigh a few but don't start sorting yet. After 5-10, if there are about as many heavier ones as lighter go with that. Save the zero bullet off to the side to check scale drift. Now start weighing bullets and putting them in bins by 0.1 grain increments. I can do 5-10 /minute.
I fetishize case weight more than bullet weight. Case weight does not indicate case volume very well, but it doesn't take long and if you find the 1 truly off one, it'll save some mystery in your results. Checking case volume in new cases is pretty useless and very time consuming. Once fired is better, but only if all the cases have the same pressure history. Cases fired in new barrels or used for pressure ladders won't work. Measuring individual case volumes is extremely time consuming and prone to all kinds of errors, so buy a little extra good brass and use the ends of the weight sort for pressure ladders is my preferred approach.
So heavy to light or light to heavy? I usually load left side with the foulers and then light to heavy of whatever. What I try to do is use the ratty end of the box when it doesn't matter and the middle when it does.
We call those backstops. After you try one, you may not go home.
Shooting ridge to ridge has its own problems, but unless it drops right behind the target, over the top is generally not a "no call".
What I was going back looking for is the brand and type of the 407s?
Whoa. You’re way cool. I have saved this and other post for future reference. Many thanks.
I have his collection and am on vol 1. I also subscribe to his podcasts. Finding time to study and maintain a small biz is tricky. He has donated a full set to all participants of the clinic. I will pay my set forward to a person in need, and keep the set which I will have bookmarks in.
I was putting the outliers at the end of the box as I won’t take home 4-5 unfired cases. I just send them and know if performance tailed off, why. I was keeping the best in the first five(bottom left) because I always verify zero and chrono the speed into calculator.
As for case sorting…. that may have to wait for full retirement lol.
The 407’s are Berger #37407 ELR Match Solids
I just returned from range and tested the first 5 of 50 I loaded that were the lightest ones.
Average: 2995.8
Low: 2991.4
High: 3004.4
ES: 13.0
SD: 5.3
Group size: under a minute and all touching. I am going to load the other hundo and call them good to go.
Lastly, I hope one day to meet all of you guys in person to personally thank you and buy you a Beer and a Brat for sharing your vast knowledge.
Class move, Pete.
Make it out to Arena one of these days again when our crew is up there and we’ll buy each other one.
Yessir, I will be doing that. I have to get back home to Wisconsin in between before the snow falls in November. I guess no one stepped up to organize another weekend up there this year.Class move, Pete.
Make it out to Arena one of these days again when our crew is up there and we’ll buy each other one.
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