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Ballistic Subject Matter Expert needed

zeroverfied

Private
Minuteman
Legend
Jan 21, 2023
43
10
townsend GA
I am currently working on a digital boresighter that uses Artificial Intelligence and Machine Learning. My website is Zero-Verify.com, and I would like to find an SME to assist. I currently have an engineer working on the design and development, as well as the back end of the app, a marketing director who is also working on the front end of the app, and an optical engineer for collimation, as well as a Data engineer for cloud structure.
 
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It is past April 1. Got six patents and another pending.
You might as well use the whole forum. It’s free. And there are many of use who by a courts standards ( which isn’t much of a standard) could easily be seen as SME. All with varying degrees of knowledge, experience and so forth.

If someone’s wrong, the forum has a way of course correcting that info. If you have a question, you might as well just ask here.
 
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You might as well use the whole forum. It’s free. And there are many of use who by a courts standards ( which isn’t much of a standard) could easily be seen as SME. All with varying degrees of knowledge, experience and so forth.

If someone’s wrong, the forum has a way of course correcting that info. If you have a question. You might as well just ask here.
Appreciate the feedback and guidance.
 
You might as well use the whole forum. It’s free. And there are many of use who by a courts standards ( which isn’t much of a standard) could easily be seen as SME. All with varying degrees of knowledge, experience and so forth.

If someone’s wrong, the forum has a way of course correcting that info. If you have a question. You might as well just ask here.
I think the importance of all this is a sounding board and not developing anything in a vacuum.
 
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I think you're barking up the wrong tree, as I can bore-sight using the bore for free.

But it's a free country. You're free to overcomplicate anything you desire.
Still, this may be a decent proving ground.

Such a system would definitely benefit larger bore precision guns where the munitions cost 10's, 100's or 1000's of dollars per round. I'm guessing the basic foundational notions involved with doing it for a rifle could be scaled to any other system that relies on unguided/ballistic path predictability.

In the mean time, I'm doing what you are doing and getting on paper via the Mk1 Mod 0 eyeball looking down the bore.
 
Still, this may be a decent proving ground.

Such a system would definitely benefit larger bore precision guns where the munitions cost 10's, 100's or 1000's of dollars per round. I'm guessing the basic foundational notions involved with doing it for a rifle could be scaled to any other system that relies on unguided/ballistic path predictability.

In the mean time, I'm doing what you are doing and getting on paper via the Mk1 Mod 0 eyeball looking down the bore.
No doubt, a sound system well proven.
 
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No doubt, a sound system well proven.
I definitely didn't mean the comment as a knock against your ideas and approach.
Even if this market may not be your ultimate target for profitability, I'm sure the wild variety of firearms and users would make for a healthy sample to work with and develop your final versions.

Best of luck with the efforts.
 
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My roots are in manual Artillery gunnery. Charts, darts, graphic and tabular firing tables, and manual computation of firing data; then computers came along, loaded with punched paper much like ticker tape, containing metrological data. Dang, what would they think of next?
 
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Still, this may be a decent proving ground.

Such a system would definitely benefit larger bore precision guns where the munitions cost 10's, 100's or 1000's of dollars per round. I'm guessing the basic foundational notions involved with doing it for a rifle could be scaled to any other system that relies on unguided/ballistic path predictability.

In the mean time, I'm doing what you are doing and getting on paper via the Mk1 Mod 0 eyeball looking down the bore.
I mean, there’s better ways than looking through the bore.

We all use a 100y zero here. First shot, just use 25 yards. Line up your windage and set your elevation on the top of a 1 inch square.

Second shot at 100. You should be closer in the ball park than trying to peep down the bore. Ya’ll can afford 3 rounds to get your zero.
 
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I mean, there’s better ways than looking through the bore.

We all use a 100y zero here. First shot, just use 25 yards. Line up your windage and set your elevation on the top of a 1 inch square.

Second shot at 100. You should be closer in the ball park than trying to peep down the bore. Ya’ll can afford 3 rounds to get your zero.
I guess it depends on your comfort zone and methods.

We can eyeball a bore good enough to get dialed in somewhere on 8.5x11 paper at 100. Then just send #1. Measure the correction and finger fuck the turrets to whatever the reticle is telling you. #2 should be money.
 
Me to Me. So why work on a new means of boresight and zero? How accurate is a rifle, or a good scope, and good ammunition, whether factory or a hand load? Well, define accuracy and precision. So, what is the accepted standard for a good rifle, a good scope, and good ammunition? All these should get you within an inch of your point, given manufacturing tolerances, if not, why not?


1751055535541.png
 
Me to Me. So why work on a new means of boresight and zero? How accurate is a rifle, or a good scope, and good ammunition, whether factory or a hand load? Well, define accuracy and precision. So, what is the accepted standard for a good rifle, a good scope, and good ammunition? All these should get you within an inch of your point, given manufacturing tolerances, if not, why not?


View attachment 8716621
We need to get something out of the way early on in this thread. . . . .

Do you own and wear any dark colored track suits with the white stripe thing going on down the side?

Sincerely
 
Me to Me. So why work on a new means of boresight and zero? How accurate is a rifle, or a good scope, and good ammunition, whether factory or a hand load? Well, define accuracy and precision. So, what is the accepted standard for a good rifle, a good scope, and good ammunition? All these should get you within an inch of your point, given manufacturing tolerances, if not, why not?


View attachment 8716621
Just make sure its so fool proof the FDC, can't screw it up,...
 
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If so, how? What part of the thread are you referring to?
well you have alluded to boresighting and collimators. If I had to guess, you would want to to use laser, sensors that talks with AI to get an alignment relative to the bore.

If that was the case I don’t think anyone here would pay for that. Whether you’re using @Terry Cross 2 shot method, or my 3 shot method, either way, it’s under $5 usually. Often doing that kind of stuff I have a chrono up and am doing other stuff at the same time.

A nail looking for hammer.
 
Still, this may be a decent proving ground.

Such a system would definitely benefit larger bore precision guns where the munitions cost 10's, 100's or 1000's of dollars per round. I'm guessing the basic foundational notions involved with doing it for a rifle could be scaled to any other system that relies on unguided/ballistic path predictability.

In the mean time, I'm doing what you are doing and getting on paper via the Mk1 Mod 0 eyeball looking down the bore.
I’m sure you’ve seen the MBD kits and solution boards for the Abrams tanks? Kinda primitive in function, but saves live rounds down range
 
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well you have alluded to boresighting and collimators. If I had to guess, you would want to to use laser, sensors that talks with AI to get an alignment relative to the bore.

If that was the case I don’t think anyone here would pay for that. Whether you’re using @Terry Cross 2 shot method, or my 3 shot method, either way, it’s under $5 usually. Often doing that kind of stuff I have a chrono up and am doing other stuff at the same time.

A nail looking for hammer.
The system would determine the line of bore based on the SAMMI dimension of the chamber. The camber insert, through AI and ML, would learn how far it is off-center and compensate for the variation, using the true center of the bore. It does not need a laser; the laser method is outdated. It has reached its maturity in the product life cycle; you can't make it any better, greener, redder, bigger, or smaller, not better. Another sensor that attaches to the scope determines the line of sight and knows the diameter of the scope tube, as well as the location of the crosshairs, based on the scope's make and model. At this point, the line of sight and the line of bore are running parallel. The app determines the actual scope height from the line of sight to the line of bore. Give the app your distance to the target, and it can display the intersection of the line of sight on the line of bore by showing a dot on the app's screen on your phone. The attachment to the scope displays your crosshairs, and now you can move them with the turrets to the intersecting point shown on the phone's display as a dot.
 
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well you have alluded to boresighting and collimators. If I had to guess, you would want to to use laser, sensors that talks with AI to get an alignment relative to the bore.

If that was the case I don’t think anyone here would pay for that. Whether you’re using @Terry Cross 2 shot method, or my 3 shot method, either way, it’s under $5 usually. Often doing that kind of stuff I have a chrono up and am doing other stuff at the same time.

A nail looking for hammer.
Let me clarify this: If everything you're mentioning costs $5, then what is the total cost of all the equipment involved in your method? Does that mean your time spent at the range is valued at nothing? Is your gas free? Was your chronograph given to you, and is the energy it uses also free? Let's be honest about the costs.
 
Let me clarify this: If everything you're mentioning costs $5, then what is the total cost of all the equipment involved in your method? Does that mean your time spent at the range is valued at nothing? Is your gas free? Was your chronograph given to you, and is the energy it uses also free? Let's be honest about the costs.
? is your product going to pay for my electricity, drive me to the range, experience me at the range? Are you going to buy my next chrono?

Do I even need to buy a gun? Is my scope free?

What fuckery is this? It’s a volunteer sport or hobby. Unless I’m mistaken, you’re talking about boresighting. If a box of factory ammo for example is say $40, that’s $6 for 3 rounds. 3 rounds that are going to get shot, somehow or someway….how do you save me money?
 
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The point is everything has a cost
? is your product going to pay for my electricity, drive me to the range, experience me at the range? Are you going to buy my next chrono?

Do I even need to buy a gun? Is my scope free?

What fuckery is this? It’s a volunteer sport or hobby. Unless I’m mistaken, you’re talking about boresighting. If a box of factory ammo for example is say $40, that’s $6 for 3 rounds. 3 rounds that are going to get shot, somehow or someway….how do you save me money?
The point is that everything has a cost, and arguing about what we disagree on is pointless.
 
The system would determine the line of bore based on the SAMMI dimension of the chamber. The camber insert, through AI and ML, would learn how far it is off-center and compensate for the variation, using the true center of the bore.
It sounds like you are anchoring your origin or first known position at the chamber.

Does your proposed system allow or compensate for curvature of the bore via offsets or similar?

There is almost no such thing as a straight bore from end to end with the average curvature between muzzle and breech becoming pretty substantial on factory production barrels. Custom builders will actually time this runout so that the line of departure doesn't require any large windage input when zeroing the optic while also maximizing available elevation that the optic could offer once zeroed.

Most machinists and ballistic nerds are going to contend that the last few inches of bore will determine the true departure angle. This is why most custom builders will indicate in the last few inches of bore and totally ignore what the rest of the barrel does when setting up to machine muzzle threads, shoulders and crowns intended to host suppressors.

Just throwing this out as it seems you would want to eliminate as many variables as possible in calculating the plot. Starting at the chamber and having to deal with wide variations of curvatures would unnecessarily contaminate and complicate your path to a solution.
 
The point is everything has a cost

The point is that everything has a cost, and arguing about what we disagree on is pointless.
That’s a horrible point.

It was already pointed out the cost was about $5. If your product cost $50 it would take about 10 times at the range to break even. But then I would just shoot those 3 rounds for something else.

Meanwhile I’m going to still use a chrono, and still drive my vehicle and so on and so forth.
 
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It sounds like you are anchoring your origin or first known position at the chamber.

Does your proposed system allow or compensate for curvature of the bore via offsets or similar?

There is almost no such thing as a straight bore from end to end with the average curvature between muzzle and breech becoming pretty substantial on factory production barrels. Custom builders will actually time this runout so that the line of departure doesn't require any large windage input when zeroing the optic while also maximizing available elevation that the optic could offer once zeroed.

Most machinists and ballistic nerds are going to contend that the last few inches of bore will determine the true departure angle. This is why most custom builders will indicate in the last few inches of bore and totally ignore what the rest of the barrel does when setting up to machine muzzle threads, shoulders and crowns intended to host suppressors.

Just throwing this out as it seems you would want to eliminate as many variables as possible in calculating the plot. Starting at the chamber and having to deal with wide variations of curvatures would unnecessarily contaminate and complicate your path to a solution.
I hear you, when you fire after boresight, whatever variables are present will be accounted for in your zero. There are going to be variables even in the intersection of the line of sight and the line of bore. Running a simulation with Solidworks (CAD) we found that the lines do not intersect at the distance to the target because of the pixel size on the screen. It was a tiny error, but an error still that has to be noted, even when accounted for in the zero.
 
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That’s a horrible point.

It was already pointed out the cost was about $5. If your product cost $50 it would take about 10 times at the range to break even. But then I would just shoot those 3 rounds for something else.

Meanwhile I’m going to still use a chrono, and still drive my vehicle and so on and so forth.
I appreciate your point of view.
 
Why did you not revive and continue with your original thread from last year?
Is this still the same system you linked on YouTube?


I think your idea is too based on theoretical perfect ballistic flight out of a theoretically perfect chamber/bore.

Your video mentions verifying zero.
Bore sighting to get close enough to minimize final adjustments is a rough approximation and a totally different animal than verifying a true "zero" which is much more precise.

Regardless of how accurately you map, match and model the SAAMI chamber you have large built in errors since 99% of the chambers are not pointing in a path that matches where the final section of bore will send the bullet.

I don't think you are going to get an accurate, predictable and repeatable result capable of verifying actual zero.
 
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This thread sounds like an AI bot is chatting and dragging unwitting participants into it. I doubt anyone competent on this site is going to use AI for initial scope sight in as there are plenty of proven, quick, free methods of doing so already posted.
Nope, just a deaf old artilleryman, and you are right, don't want to change how folks do what they do, just sayin there is a different way.
 
Why did you not revive and continue with your original thread from last year?
Is this still the same system you linked on YouTube?


I think your idea is too based on theoretical perfect ballistic flight out of a theoretically perfect chamber/bore.

Your video mentions verifying zero.
Bore sighting to get close enough to minimize final adjustments is a rough approximation and a totally different animal than verifying a true "zero" which is much more precise.

Regardless of how accurately you map, match and model the SAAMI chamber you have large built in errors since 99% of the chambers are not pointing in a path that matches where the final section of bore will send the bullet.

I don't think you are going to get an accurate, predictable and repeatable result capable of verifying actual zero.

Yes, it is, dang appreciate you posting that LOL not only a deaf cannon cocker but a forgetful one too.
 
The system would determine the line of bore based on the SAMMI dimension of the chamber. The camber insert, through AI and ML, would learn how far it is off-center and compensate for the variation, using the true center of the bore. It does not need a laser; the laser method is outdated. It has reached its maturity in the product life cycle; you can't make it any better, greener, redder, bigger, or smaller, not better. Another sensor that attaches to the scope determines the line of sight and knows the diameter of the scope tube, as well as the location of the crosshairs, based on the scope's make and model. At this point, the line of sight and the line of bore are running parallel. The app determines the actual scope height from the line of sight to the line of bore. Give the app your distance to the target, and it can display the intersection of the line of sight on the line of bore by showing a dot on the app's screen on your phone. The attachment to the scope displays your crosshairs, and now you can move them with the turrets to the intersecting point shown on the phone's display as a dot.
Great idea. Can I get 4? Do you take Bitcoin or dickcoin?
 
I applaud your ingenuity and entrepreneurship. People with ideas and intelligence continue to make remarkable improvements in tools relating to shooting sports. A suggestion: I would not emphasize boresighting as the tool’s key use. While I am willing to spend untold $’s (untold to my wife anyway) on gadgets to improve my shooting precision at distance, I would not waste a dollar on a boresight tool. Why? It’s just so damn easy and uncomplicated and inexpensive to take one shot of factory ammo at 25 yards and adjust. I expect that’s why you received some initial negative responses as most guys on this forum can boresight in their sleep. When I read “boresighter”, I was immediately turned off. Your tool seems to be good for quickly zeroing and syncing POI with POA at various ranges and appears to have utility far above boresighting. I would emphasize this aspect and call it something like quick-zero or smart-zero.
 
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Attached are the patent docs from that site.

It sounds like you are anchoring your origin or first known position at the chamber.

Does your proposed system allow or compensate for curvature of the bore via offsets or similar?

There is almost no such thing as a straight bore from end to end with the average curvature between muzzle and breech becoming pretty substantial on factory production barrels. Custom builders will actually time this runout so that the line of departure doesn't require any large windage input when zeroing the optic while also maximizing available elevation that the optic could offer once zeroed.

Most machinists and ballistic nerds are going to contend that the last few inches of bore will determine the true departure angle. This is why most custom builders will indicate in the last few inches of bore and totally ignore what the rest of the barrel does when setting up to machine muzzle threads, shoulders and crowns intended to host suppressors.
I did not know about much of this stuff, Terry. Thanks for sharing!
 

Attachments

  • ProvisionalPatentApplication.pdf
    2.5 MB · Views: 1
  • 20130344461.pdf
    1.7 MB · Views: 5
  • 2018-10145653-1.pdf
    1.6 MB · Views: 2
  • 2020-10739109.pdf
    2.2 MB · Views: 1
  • 2021-11002512.pdf
    2.4 MB · Views: 0
  • 2021-10900749.pdf
    1.7 MB · Views: 0
  • 2016-9335125.pdf
    2.3 MB · Views: 0
  • 2022-11506468.pdf
    1.7 MB · Views: 1
If so, how? What part of the thread are you referring to?
I'm referring to the entire system marketed by the website you linked to. Your system appears to be an unnecessarily technical, complicated, and expensive method of sighting in a rifle. And for what? I am aware of no competent marksman who can't get zeroed in a few minutes for price of a handful of rounds. And since your system still requires confirmation by shooting a few rounds, what benefit does it bring for the price?

Absent a hardware problem, if someone can't get on paper and dialed in within a reasonable amount of time (let's say, whatever amount time it takes to unbox your system, read its manual, set it up, and figure it out), then they probably shouldn't be at the range without someone who knows what they are doing. And if that incompetent shooter can't do it the traditional way, what makes you think they can do it when they add the complications of your system to it?

Getting sighted in just doesn't seem to be a problem for anyone I know or have heard of.
 
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