Does anyone stand with Berger?

[Mean_Man]

Recently weighing Sierra match king, Berger Juggernaut’s, Hornady ELD-Match and ELD-VT and even their flag ship A-tip projectiles in .308, I noticed neither Hornady nor Sierra could hold a candle to the consistency in weight of the Berger’s I saw over half a grain difference in min vs max on Hornady and Sierra projectiles while over 100 projectiles of the Berger Juggernauts, they were all literally dead on 185gr or 185.1 split about 60/40.

I didn’t expect there to be that much inconsistency in the Hornady’s weight or the Sierra’s.

I guess the Berger’s cost more for a reason… I duno why I’m even posting this other than surprised in a negative way by the others.

 

[Dogtown]

I tend to bounce between Berger and Lapua for the high performance stuff.

 

[ma smith]

I run other components side by side and don't have problems per-se with alternatives (typically 2x brass and 2-3x bullets in each cardtridge), its just that most other components need various extra steps to get sorted. eg sierra bullets I prefer to sort and bergers never get sorted. Also I find this with Lapua brass as well...right out of the box its typically like 95% good to go, in terms of accuracy and consistency. I do lube+mandrel Lapua prior to loading it tho as virgin brass, since the necks are super (squeaky) clean and kinda tight.

 

[Maurygold]

Just spend the money on Berger hybrid

 

[Mean_Man]

Just spend the money on Berger hybrid

The 200.20x hybrid I think I got that right, is even heavier to a point in .308 she’s getting pretty slow though? Which is one reason I was really wanting the 169 SMK to do well, right now I’m waiting on seating stems in the mail that should fit them better, and then another weekend to try them again…

But yeah why do you recommend their hybrid over the juggernaut?

 

[salks]

Berger bullets seem to shine past say 700 yards. I have strayed from Berger a time or two mainly due to price but I always go back. I always have good luck with the 140 hybrids. Even in different lots they are very consistent.

 

[Holliday]

Going back to Berger after weighing some Hornady 6.5 140 eld-match. Hornady really stretches the term “Match Grade” in my opinion with that crap.

 

[Dogtown]

That's what's bothered me with Hornady and Sierra over the years: too much variation. Sure, doesn't make too much of a difference in many scenarios, but it's yet another variable.

 

[Hetzer]

I went through Sierra a few years back on the tour with my daughter. The guide remarked then about how some of the machines were from the 40's. That's what I recall at least. And that he seemed pretty proud of it.

I could be wrong but that's what I remember most about that tour.

 

[Maurygold]

The 200.20x hybrid I think I got that right, is even heavier to a point in .308 she’s getting pretty slow though? Which is one reason I was really wanting the 169 SMK to do well, right now I’m waiting on seating stems in the mail that should fit them better, and then another weekend to try them again…

But yeah why do you recommend their hybrid over the juggernaut?

You realize they make a 168 hybrid right?

 

[simonp]

Ive been told by a couple of folks that a number of shooters sponsored by Sierra trade off or sell their bullets and use some other brands instead........

I sorted and weighed Berger vs Sierra 3-4 times and the variances in Sierras compared to Berger was stunning, at this point all I shoot are Bergers. I use Sierras for High Power where the variance doesn't really matter much otherwise, I pay up for Berger

 

[Mean_Man]

You realize they make a 168 hybrid right?

.........Well, No, but yes.....In my research I made a spread sheet of options and it's listed with the G7. For whatever reason it didn't stick in my mind. Sooo now just to see how it should fair in drop and wind drift compared to the Jugger.

Thank you.

 

[db2000]

I’ve found the same consistency with Juggs.
VLD Hunters are $80/100 now. I still shoot em because they’re awesome and I’m not poor. I’ve got thousands of Juggs that I shoot too. I rarely shoot anything else in 308. 1:10 tw

 

[ggmanning]

Other than a .223 they are all I shoot in my bolt guns. Much better seat depth measurement consistency as well due to more consistent length/ogive dimensions.

 

[flogxal]

I went through Sierra a few years back on the tour with my daughter. The guide remarked then about how some of the machines were from the 40's. That's what I recall at least. And that he seemed pretty proud of it.

I could be wrong but that's what I remember most about that tour.

I would not get too caught up in 80 yr old machines being the cause. Such machines can run accurately if well maintained and operated by experienced machinists. These latter two factors would weigh more heavily in the end result than the mere fact of the machine being 80 yrs old.

There is also the "good enough" QA/QC attitude, which can echo through a business like the old cliche "close enough for government work."

My sense is that Berger, as an idea/business, arose from wanting to have better end results than what Sierra etc provided. So their process would be, top to bottom and side to side, more attentive to detail and possibly longer time in process per projectile. Which cuts into end sale profit pricing. And Berger is happy to do that while pricing their projectiles accordingly... higher priced than Sierra.

 

[Baron23]

To me, a lot depends on what your barrel likes. I have a bunch of 140 HT from Berger....and one of my 6.5 CM's barrel just like the 142 SMK's far better (they group far better at 100). So, does the weight consistency really matter in this situation? Now, I haven't shot the 142 SMK's past 550 yards so maybe the Berger's will fare better at further ranges but I don't have a lot of opportunity to shoot that far often. But out to 550, the 142's have worked very well.

Cheers

 

[Hetzer]

I would not get too caught up in 80 yr old machines being the cause. Such machines can run accurately if well maintained and operated by experienced machinists. These latter two factors would weigh more heavily in the end result than the mere fact of the machine being 80 yrs old.

There is also the "good enough" QA/QC attitude, which can echo through a business like the old cliche "close enough for government work."

My sense is that Berger, as an idea/business, arose from wanting to have better end results than what Sierra etc provided. So their process would be, top to bottom and side to side, more attentive to detail and possibly longer time in process per projectile. Which cuts into end sale profit pricing. And Berger is happy to do that while pricing their projectiles accordingly... higher priced than Sierra.

Doesn't bother me, I still buy both. I was just making a comment on what they said. Take it for what it's worth . I'm no expert on such things.

 

[Doom]

I guess the Berger’s cost more for a reason… I duno why I’m even posting this other than surprised in a negative way by the others.

It's pretty simple. The faster the machines run the greater the deviation from the mean will likely be. But the unit costs will be lower for the fixed costs. The real question is "can you shoot the difference in precision" between the brands?

 

[DIBBS]

How do the Hornady "copies" <ripoffs> of Berger and Sierra bullets compare? Inconsistent as well?

 

[TheOE800]

How do the Hornady "copies" <ripoffs> of Berger and Sierra bullets compare? Inconsistent as well?

Hornady is making knockoff/clone bullets (Aeromatch)

They look a little shorter and fatter than the 140 hybrids do from Berger. Maybe they copied the SMK? Either way Sunday I’m shooting them at 1000 yards and I’ll get some groups. At 100. I’ll use my CCI 450 41.5 H4350 annealed starline load I have been having so much luck with and do a direct...

www.snipershide.com

 

[Hecouldgoalltheway]

It's pretty simple. The faster the machines run the greater the deviation from the mean will likely be. But the unit costs will be lower for the fixed costs. The real question is "can you shoot the difference in precision" between the brands?

I might be able to find it somewhere, but there is an interview on YouTube with Erik Cortina and a guy they call "speedy Gonzalez" . He's an og benchrest/ f-class hall of fame guy. In one of the interviews he explains his process over the decades, and what he eliminated through scientific testing, and weight sorting bullets was one of them. He said that the weights mean nothing. They don't matter. You can have the most consistent bullets in the world and they can shoot like garbage, meanwhile you can have bullets that are all over the place and they stack up nice. He said the same thing about chasing low SD's. It's great that you have low SD's or whatever, but that doesn't necessarily create positive effects on target. He said he had loads that had really high sd's, but he won national championships with them, because sd's don't necessarily matter. I think all berger is doing is weight sorting batches before they send them out. They probably have a machine on their conveyor belt that creates weight sorted lots.

 

[Mean_Man]

I might be able to find it somewhere, but there is an interview on YouTube with Erik Cortina and a guy they call "speedy Gonzalez" . He's an og benchrest/ f-class hall of fame guy. In one of the interviews he explains his process over the decades, and what he eliminated through scientific testing, and weight sorting bullets was one of them. He said that the weights mean nothing. They don't matter. You can have the most consistent bullets in the world and they can shoot like garbage, meanwhile you can have bullets that are all over the place and they stack up nice. He said the same thing about chasing low SD's. It's great that you have low SD's or whatever, but that doesn't necessarily create positive effects on target. He said he had loads that had really high sd's, but he won national championships with them, because sd's don't necessarily matter. I think all berger is doing is weight sorting batches before they send them out. They probably have a machine on their conveyor belt that creates weight sorted lots.

Did that to be accurate, there would have to be lots fairly off from the advertised weight though wouldn’t there? Unless they’re culling the extremes themselves and that’s another reason cost per bullet is so high.

 

[Hecouldgoalltheway]

Did that to be accurate, there would have to be lots fairly off from the advertised weight though wouldn’t there? Unless they’re culling the extremes themselves and that’s another reason cost per bullet is so high.

Or just selling the extremes as seconds, or maybe even weight sorting them and selling them in batches as loaded ammo. It's hard to say.

The truth is that excluding the most precise shooting sports, the difference in weight of any major manufacturers bullets probably won't have any effect on the shooter in the end anyways. If you can't shoot the difference, then it doesn't matter. For hunters and anyone not shooting groups at 1k or further, a half a grain of weight will probably never show up on paper anyways.

 

[Rocketmandb]

I guess the Berger’s cost more for a reason… I duno why I’m even posting this other than surprised in a negative way by the others.

All bullet manufacturers have their warts. Berger's tend to be too small to notice or make a difference.

With the Berger .375 410s finally available, I am finally back to being a 100% Berger shooter, and I will never again shoot a caliber for which I can't get the bullets in the yellow box.

Beyond consistency, their hybrids are just stupid easy to tune in with seating depth.

 

[Huskydriver]

99% of the people in this thread couldn't even dream of shooting the difference in bullet weight variation.... I'll show myself out

 

[Maurygold]

I might be able to find it somewhere, but there is an interview on YouTube with Erik Cortina and a guy they call "speedy Gonzalez" . He's an og benchrest/ f-class hall of fame guy. In one of the interviews he explains his process over the decades, and what he eliminated through scientific testing, and weight sorting bullets was one of them. He said that the weights mean nothing. They don't matter. You can have the most consistent bullets in the world and they can shoot like garbage, meanwhile you can have bullets that are all over the place and they stack up nice. He said the same thing about chasing low SD's. It's great that you have low SD's or whatever, but that doesn't necessarily create positive effects on target. He said he had loads that had really high sd's, but he won national championships with them, because sd's don't necessarily matter. I think all berger is doing is weight sorting batches before they send them out. They probably have a machine on their conveyor belt that creates weight sorted lots.

That’s for short range BR. It absolutely matter for long range. I’m guessing you’ve shot neither in a precision match…..

I’m also guessing his idea of high sd is 8-10

 

[Hecouldgoalltheway]

That’s for short range BR. It absolutely matter for long range. I’m guessing you’ve shot neither in a precision match…..

I’m also guessing his idea of high sd is 8-10

It's amazing how you manage to be wrong about everything you post. How could you do that?

Are you in the benchrest or f-class hall of fame?

 

[JerkyFreak]

I think the problem with Sierra, at least with the 155gr .30 cal 2155's, is that they have at least 3 machines dumping bullets in the same box.

Figured that out one day by measuring bullet base to ogive and getting 3 distinct piles of differences.

 

[Maurygold]

It's amazing how you manage to be wrong about everything you post. How could you do that?

Are you in the benchrest or f-class hall of fame?

Lol maybe you’re not familiar with exterior ballistics or precision sports but speed deviation leads to vertical stringing at distance.

100 and 200 yard benchrest this matters less.

But you’ve never shot either so I’m not surprised you have no idea

Please explain to us how a 7mm 180 hybrid at 2900 and one at 2960 will hit the same poi at 1k yards. Indulge us with your intelligence

 

[Hecouldgoalltheway]

Lol maybe you’re not familiar with exterior ballistics or precision sports but speed deviation leads to vertical stringing at distance.

100 and 200 yard benchrest this matters less.

But you’ve never shot either so I’m not surprised you have no idea

Please explain to us how a 7mm 180 hybrid at 2900 and one at 2960 will hit the same poi at 1k yards. Indulge us with your intelligence

You are so fucking dumb that it's frightening that you are allowed to communicate with other people. You just made the dumbest straw man argument I've ever seen. It has absolutely nothing to do with anything that's been discussed here. It's probably better for you to just shut the fuck up and go back to coloring with your crayons. Nobody wants to hear you blabber. Nobody.

 

[ARShooter91]

I sorted a couple hundred 140elds by weight, shot some on each extreme, in the middle range where most fell, and at 1k my elevation variance over 9 or 10 shots was under .2mil.

Certainly not very scientific and or definitive but almost a full grain difference in weight isn't enough to move me off a 1moa plate.

I do use Berger's for 15-2200yd in my 300wm

 

[Maurygold]

You are so fucking dumb that it's frightening that you are allowed to communicate with other people. You just made the dumbest straw man argument I've ever seen. It has absolutely nothing to do with anything that's been discussed here. It's probably better for you to just shut the fuck up and go back to coloring with your crayons. Nobody wants to hear you blabber. Nobody.

You were just indulging us on how low sd and es don’t matter by citing someone who was talking about 100 and 200 yard targets. Glad we could dispel you’re incoherent babbling

Time for you to get back to shooting savages and tikkas with your budget barrels and hornady bullets

 

[Hecouldgoalltheway]

You were just indulging us on how low sd and es don’t matter by citing someone who was talking about 100 and 200 yard targets. Glad we could dispel you’re incoherent babbling

Time for you to get back to shooting savages and tikkas with your budget barrels

Listen moron, you don't know what you're talking about. Who said he was talking about 100 and 200 yards? You just made that up. I certainly never said it and neither did he. Where do you get your bullshit? Are you a consummate liar or do you just have a childlike imagination. I can tell by your responses that your a dipshit fudd. What I'm saying doesn't match the bullshit you've believed for a few decades, and you can't imagine that you're wrong. Almost everything you say is wrong. You should probably do less talking and more listening. Again, I've never seen a useful comment from you anywhere.

 

[Rocketmandb]

Listen moron, you don't know what you're talking about. Who said he was talking about 100 and 200 yards? You just made that up. I certainly never said it and neither did he. Where do you get your bullshit? Are you a consummate liar or do you just have a childlike imagination. I can tell by your responses that your a dipshit fudd. What I'm saying doesn't match the bullshit you've believed for a few decades, and you can't imagine that you're wrong. Almost everything you say is wrong. You should probably do less talking and more listening. Again, I've never seen a useful comment from you anywhere.

There's a reason I, and many others, have hit the ignore button for him.

 

[Maurygold]

Listen moron, you don't know what you're talking about. Who said he was talking about 100 and 200 yards? You just made that up. I certainly never said it and neither did he. Where do you get your bullshit? Are you a consummate liar or do you just have a childlike imagination. I can tell by your responses that your a dipshit fudd. What I'm saying doesn't match the bullshit you've believed for a few decades, and you can't imagine that you're wrong. Almost everything you say is wrong. You should probably do less talking and more listening. Again, I've never seen a useful comment from you anywhere.
[/QUOTE]

The majority of information he puts out is on short range br (that’s 100 & 200 yard). So where you got the notion that bullet weight and sd/es don’t matter at distance is misleading and wrong.

 

[Maurygold]

There's a reason I, and many others, have hit the ignore button for him.

You also shoot hornady bulllet and believe seating pressure correlates to sd/ es. Im proud to be blocked by you.

 

[Hecouldgoalltheway]

Listen moron, you don't know what you're talking about. Who said he was talking about 100 and 200 yards? You just made that up. I certainly never said it and neither did he. Where do you get your bullshit? Are you a consummate liar or do you just have a childlike imagination. I can tell by your responses that your a dipshit fudd. What I'm saying doesn't match the bullshit you've believed for a few decades, and you can't imagine that you're wrong. Almost everything you say is wrong. You should probably do less talking and more listening. Again, I've never seen a useful comment from you anywhere.

So you know more about this than the guy who is a pioneer in f class and benchrest and is literally in the hall of fame?

I have a 6 year old daughter who is smarter than you are..

 

[Maurygold]

So you know more about this than the guy who is a pioneer in f class and benchrest and is literally in the hall of fame?

I have a 6 year old daughter who is smarter than you are..

You’re taking a statement he said and running with it into a universal statement. Given the sd/ es comments it’s clear it’s more geared toward short range (the thing he frequently publishes on) because common sense tells us those are important at 600 and 1k precision.

Is your 6 year old daughter also smart enough to not shoot Shaw barrels and hornady bullets? If so she has surpassed you

Here you can do some reading since that as close to a precision sport as you’ll ever get. http://www.benchrest.se/?page_id=143

 

[Hecouldgoalltheway]

I've got you on ignore. I'll stop hitting the button to see your useless blabber now. Forget that I exist, because you no longer exist in my world. I'll bet you're in the running for the most ignored moron on this forum. Seek help for your condition..

 

[Maurygold]

I've got you on ignore. I'll stop hitting the button to see your useless blabber now. Forget that I exist, because you no longer exist in my world. I'll bet you're in the running for the most ignored moron on this forum. Seek help for your condition..

You shoot budget barrels and hornady bullets. Block away friend