A little more history. This was a good load that turned out to be inconsistent. One bench group and two positions.
Consistency, or lack thereof
- Thread starter Josh Umsted
- Start date
Any time you get new brass, you've going to find variations in their head space. This is why its a good idea to fire form them to your particular chamber before you do any load development and you don't want to measure case volume until they're fired in you chamber to you have the proper case volume to your loading.
When Lapua brass comes boxed in the bulk, it's always a good idea to run a mandrel through them to be make sure the necks are round. Also, when they're trimmed, they're not chamfered and it's always best to seat bullets in a neck that's ben chamfered.
PS: for fire forming, it's ok to just load and shoot new cases. . . preferably with cheap bullets since you're not likely to get the best results until after you've fire formed them.
Forgot to include this Pareto chart from the little crow series that’s a nice summary of what he found impacts groups the most:
Last edited:
What’s the total weight of your rig?
It sounds like you’re shooting a relatively lively recoiling cartridge in a light gun (which will move on you as you get fatigued and requires a fairly high level of recoil control 100% of the time to maintain NPA, and which only gets harder as the round count climbs) with a light barrel contour (that’s vastly more affected by higher temperatures, again, only getting worse as rounds add up). I’m not Sherlock Holmes, but maybe you should look into that…
If not that, I’d bet the solution to your lack of consistency is probably something simpler like: when’s the last time you checked your action screws or something? Sometimes what we see on target are symptoms of a different problem than we first assumed.
Or, feel free to continue trying to “Reloading Wizard” your way out of it by trying every brand of primers, doing some more ladder “testing” and trying every seating depth or whatever… that is popular around here after all.
I mean, there’s a lot of things to get tripped up on or that might have to get looked at, like: you said “REM700”… non-pinned lug? How’s the bedding in that Oryx? Or is it bedded? There’s a lot of things to scrutinize before turning to reloading-voodoo…
Last edited:
I wish the shots on these targets were labeled in order fired. It looks to me like your rifle is trying to shoot two groups on each target. That's either you being inconsistent behind the gun, or something is shifting. Or maybe dragging.
I know you said your rifle was in an oryx chassis, but I had a 700 LTR that did the two group thing until I changed stocks. Put it in a bedded stock and that problem disappeared.
As to the dragging comment. I have a 700 in 300winmag that I chased my tail with off and on for years. Three barrels, three different smiths, four different stocks/chassis, 600 plus rounds of "load development" never found anything it would consistently shoot well. Not typical for a winmag. Some days it would hammer. Reload it and it would shotgun. Ended up being the firing pin assembly. Totally fixed it.
After much reading here (a few post from Chad Dixon of LRI were most helpful) and watching a pile of gunsmithing videos on YouTube about blueprinting the 700 bolt, I tore into mine and lo and behold, that was the source of all my problems. I've done it to all my 700's now and even the ones I thought shot good got better.
If your rifle has the J lock firing pin assembly in it like my LTR did, scrap it and order a pin assembly from GreTan.
For new Lapua brass, I chamfer the case mouth and run an expander mandrel/ball through the neck.
13#, not bedded, not trued. Everything is torqued. I’m trying to get more consistent velocity. Rifle shoots good enough for me when sd/es are within limits. Only burning 95% of powder is definitely a factor, and the next thing I’ll try. Bedding and truing are good ideas. I’ll get to that.What’s the total weight of your rig?
It sounds like you’re shooting a relatively lively recoiling cartridge in a light gun (which will move on you as you get fatigued and requires a fairly high level of recoil control 100% of the time to maintain NPA, and which only gets harder as the round count climbs) with a light barrel contour (that’s vastly more affected by higher temperatures, again, only getting worse as rounds add up). I’m not Sherlock Holmes, but maybe you should look into that…
If not that, I’d bet the solution to your lack of consistency is probably something simpler like: when’s the last time you checked your action screws or something? Sometimes what we see on target are symptoms of a different problem than we first assumed.
Or, feel free to continue trying to “Reloading Wizard” your way out of it by trying every brand of primers, doing some more ladder “testing” and trying every seating depth or whatever… that is popular around here after all.
I mean, there’s a lot of things to get tripped up on or that might have to get looked at, like: you said “REM700”… non-pinned lug? How’s the bedding in that Oryx? Or is it bedded? There’s a lot of things to scrutinize before turning to reloading-voodoo…
Saw that. Watching all the videos in that series. It’s excellent.
I would take the rifle out of the stock and look for wear marks on the receiver. It's my opinion they should all be bedded. Especially if you are trying to get the best accuracy possible.
Think ill worry about bedding later. It’s my starter rifle. Might wanna do something else with the chassis.
Last edited:
Playing more with GRT. Theoretically, it shows an optimal charge of 44.9gn at 97% load ratio and 100% burn rate at 62,000 psi. Not gonna test that load any further for now, though.
Saving components for fire forming. GRT will help a lot comparing all my random powder, just for fun. I don’t need to test powders, really, but can compare Varget, 4895, N450 and whatever else is in my stash, for fun.
Feel like I should buy something from Little Crow. What a great series.
Saving components for fire forming. GRT will help a lot comparing all my random powder, just for fun. I don’t need to test powders, really, but can compare Varget, 4895, N450 and whatever else is in my stash, for fun.
Feel like I should buy something from Little Crow. What a great series.
Im not telling you to just load this and shoot it, but my load with a 175 or a 178gr bullet is 45gr of varget seated to book length. With whatever flavor of the month large primers. Currently it's 40 year old Winchester LR. Lapua large primer or sig hybrid cases, 20" 9 twist lilja.
I read through the thread and was going to chime in, but @CK1.0 already said it all.... focus should be on the shooter skill development and not the load development.
A lighter 308 is hard to shoot well, and often times certain equipment/components are only going to shoot so good. If you've got multiple 3/4" groups in a row I would personally call the load development done.
However I get that load development can be a fun exercise and if that's what you enjoy about shooting then keep doing it. I would just focus on coming home from each range trip with as much analysis about yourself as a shooter as you have analysis about your groups.
Video yourself close up with an iPhone in slo-mo mode and analyze the footage... are you blinking? Anticipatory tensing/movement? Does the rifle recoil look smooth and your body look relaxed? Did the reticle end up in the same place every time? Stuff like that is why we miss targets, not ES/SD.
A lighter 308 is hard to shoot well, and often times certain equipment/components are only going to shoot so good. If you've got multiple 3/4" groups in a row I would personally call the load development done.
However I get that load development can be a fun exercise and if that's what you enjoy about shooting then keep doing it. I would just focus on coming home from each range trip with as much analysis about yourself as a shooter as you have analysis about your groups.
Video yourself close up with an iPhone in slo-mo mode and analyze the footage... are you blinking? Anticipatory tensing/movement? Does the rifle recoil look smooth and your body look relaxed? Did the reticle end up in the same place every time? Stuff like that is why we miss targets, not ES/SD.
Been meaning to video myself to make sure I’m getting square behind the rifle. What I think I’m doing might not be. Been shooting for 50 years and have good & bad habits. Recoil management and establishing good npa are new concepts on which I’ve worked a lot. Also working on “building a bridge” to establish consistent shoulder connection. Trigger control, flinching, and follow through aren’t problems, at least I don’t think so. Feedback would be great.
So I’m not disagreeing. I’m fairly certain, though, my load will improve with knowledge gained in this thread.
Good to know, anyway. Once I get GRT trued with new components, load development won’t take long.
Think I would have found a better load months ago if I didn’t have pressure signs. Seems clear it wasn’t due to too much powder.
It just occurred to me that OP may want to run an exercise I have used with new shooters over the years - mainly pistol and shotgun, but it should certainly work with rifle.
I would explain to the shooter that I was going to be watching for a flinch. Depending on the individual, I may or or may not have explained what I was going to do. Then I would slip a dummy round somewhere in the magazine or shell pouch. The shooter wouldn't know when the dummy round was going into battery.
Yeah, when the muzzle would dip the better part of an inch or two on trigger pull with no "bang"... it told the tale. Most of the time, the shooter would be pretty shocked at how far off target the muzzle moved.
In skeet, we used to say, "There are two kinds of skeet shooters: those who flinch, and those who will." Once the fundamentals are learned, skeet is harder to master mentally than physically... for most shooters, the further one goes in a 100-target event - especially without missing - the more the adrenaline pumps and flinching gets harder to suppress.
I still notice it sometimes when I'm shooting for scope zero or load test, even with .223 or 6BR in an 18-pound rig - in rifle, I guess flinching is "throwing the shot."
Fwiw.
I would explain to the shooter that I was going to be watching for a flinch. Depending on the individual, I may or or may not have explained what I was going to do. Then I would slip a dummy round somewhere in the magazine or shell pouch. The shooter wouldn't know when the dummy round was going into battery.
Yeah, when the muzzle would dip the better part of an inch or two on trigger pull with no "bang"... it told the tale. Most of the time, the shooter would be pretty shocked at how far off target the muzzle moved.
In skeet, we used to say, "There are two kinds of skeet shooters: those who flinch, and those who will." Once the fundamentals are learned, skeet is harder to master mentally than physically... for most shooters, the further one goes in a 100-target event - especially without missing - the more the adrenaline pumps and flinching gets harder to suppress.
I still notice it sometimes when I'm shooting for scope zero or load test, even with .223 or 6BR in an 18-pound rig - in rifle, I guess flinching is "throwing the shot."
Fwiw.
Last edited:
Couldn't wait to experiment. Entered what I thought were good numbers into GRT and loaded 13 rounds for a ladder "experiment," not a test. Turned out to be 12 shots from 40.7gn Varget to 42.1gn.
First 7 shots made a tight little group at the bottom. 8-11, nice group closer to point of aim.
Recorded velocities were.about 100 FPS less than predicted. Figured out how to measure and input seating depth. Instead of seating to book COAL, seated to .020" off the lands as a baseline, so had to do a little math, reset the seating die for the different bullet and calculate seating depth from there. Fixing that brought my numbers more in line with reality. Less seating depth = more case volume = less pressure = less velocity. I started the ladder several rungs too low.
What the two groups tell me is the rifle wants to shoot. Noted avg velocity of shots 1-7 @ 2550 fps. That node looks viable to me. The ES for each group is 65, though. We're looking for half that. Might continue this experiment tomorrow, continuing up the ladder toward a max of 6200psi-ish.
Here's a short video. One shot and one surprise dud. Did I flinch?
First 7 shots made a tight little group at the bottom. 8-11, nice group closer to point of aim.
Recorded velocities were.about 100 FPS less than predicted. Figured out how to measure and input seating depth. Instead of seating to book COAL, seated to .020" off the lands as a baseline, so had to do a little math, reset the seating die for the different bullet and calculate seating depth from there. Fixing that brought my numbers more in line with reality. Less seating depth = more case volume = less pressure = less velocity. I started the ladder several rungs too low.
What the two groups tell me is the rifle wants to shoot. Noted avg velocity of shots 1-7 @ 2550 fps. That node looks viable to me. The ES for each group is 65, though. We're looking for half that. Might continue this experiment tomorrow, continuing up the ladder toward a max of 6200psi-ish.
Here's a short video. One shot and one surprise dud. Did I flinch?
Last edited:
Where the rest is now, any rfifle movement gets magnified at the muzzle. Conventional wisdom states that your front rest must be as far forward under the fore-end as is practical. Doing this might decrease your group size and increase your shot to shot consistency.
Understood. Thanks for the feedback.
I dislike the club's benches. The front rest is as far forward as it will go before the front foot falls off. Bipod would be more fforward of center of gravity, but adds another variable. The rifle needs to be as far forward as possible to have any rear support. Getting more room for rear support requires moving the rifle far to the right, away from the spine, reducing recoil management. My position's a compromise.I was comfortable with no noticeable wobble, keeping my face on the gun for 30 minutes.
But I'm here to learn more about precision reloading, and am heading in the right direction. Little Crow helped me understand some key concepts and connected some dots.
Tomorrow, I'll repeat today's 15 shot powder test starting at today's highest powder charge, up to just under 62,000 psi, where good things happen.
Most front rests of that style can be reversed, so a leg points straight back, and the 'Y' is facing forward. It's not a lot, but might buy you a few more inches of real estate up at the front of the bench.
Sorry to say, but after watching that video, this thread should probably be closed, or at least moved from the Reloading section, because what you're seeing on target likely has little or nothing to do with reloading IMHO.
A shitty bench has nothing to do with your cheek-piece being way too high and you being bladed like a MFer behind the gun, and if the benches suck at your club to the point that somehow guys there rationlize using that lame-ass front rest, you should already have just gone prone with your bipod.
All of that shit needs to be squared away (and the rifle-system too) before you start questioning the reloading aspect of all this.
Reloading can be such an annoying topic sometimes because there is so much BS out there that guys just parrot back and forth to each other. Like, IDK where you got "up to just under 62,000 psi, where good things happen" nonsense from, but between that and you using the term "node" like it's a real thing (it's not) makes it seem fairly obvious you're drinking too much of that Kool-Aid.
That side-saddle position at the bench was my first thought... get out of the side scoop. Get square behind the bench top. Ignore the side scoop completely. You won't be able to sit & you'll have to do modified prone, widening your stance width according to your leg length vs bench top.
Also agree that the fore-rest needs to be further out if you are really aiming for flat shooting. And bear in mind that you can't easily use a fore-rest in the field.
Also agree that the fore-rest needs to be further out if you are really aiming for flat shooting. And bear in mind that you can't easily use a fore-rest in the field.
I have to agree with CK. You have a relatively light rifle firing a .30-caliber round with a fair amount of recoil off a wobbly front rest and you are not squared behind the rifle so I'm betting the rifle hops laterally on recoil.
It does look like your adjustable comb (cheek rest) is too high, but only you can determine that. When seated behind the bench, is your back fairly straight, or are you leaning way forward? The more you lean forward, the more muscle tension is likely to affect you on recoil.... plus, leaning way forward will tend to push your face a bit more toward the scope than a more upright seating position. MAIN POINT here: Put your rifle in firing position on the bench, sit down behind it, close your eyes, and drop comfortably into your cheek weld. Open your eyes. Are you centered in the eye box? If you have to rotate your head back to get into the eye box, the comb is too high.
I bought one of those Caldwell rests early in my rifle journey circa summer 2017. It has not seen daylight since fall 2017. As CK said, if the bench sucks such that you can't properly deploy a bipod on it, get the f*** off that bench. Go prone or bring your own folding bench. Or bring a piece of plywood or MDF and clamp it to the bench to extend the bench to a usable extent.
And get over that fudd mount position. You want your body square behind the rifle. I know precisely ONE shooter with both experience and skill who uses that old mount style.
-----
Bottom line is, trying to fix your accuracy issues via your reloads appears to be like switching tires trying to fix alignment issues, and you're getting tire advice from a pimply 19-year-old at Pep Boys (reloading "lore").
If you are not aware, SH has a series of online training modules that were VERY helpful to me as a newbie. Here's an old post of mine with steps to access it.
Good luck.
It does look like your adjustable comb (cheek rest) is too high, but only you can determine that. When seated behind the bench, is your back fairly straight, or are you leaning way forward? The more you lean forward, the more muscle tension is likely to affect you on recoil.... plus, leaning way forward will tend to push your face a bit more toward the scope than a more upright seating position. MAIN POINT here: Put your rifle in firing position on the bench, sit down behind it, close your eyes, and drop comfortably into your cheek weld. Open your eyes. Are you centered in the eye box? If you have to rotate your head back to get into the eye box, the comb is too high.
I bought one of those Caldwell rests early in my rifle journey circa summer 2017. It has not seen daylight since fall 2017. As CK said, if the bench sucks such that you can't properly deploy a bipod on it, get the f*** off that bench. Go prone or bring your own folding bench. Or bring a piece of plywood or MDF and clamp it to the bench to extend the bench to a usable extent.
And get over that fudd mount position. You want your body square behind the rifle. I know precisely ONE shooter with both experience and skill who uses that old mount style.
-----
Bottom line is, trying to fix your accuracy issues via your reloads appears to be like switching tires trying to fix alignment issues, and you're getting tire advice from a pimply 19-year-old at Pep Boys (reloading "lore").
If you are not aware, SH has a series of online training modules that were VERY helpful to me as a newbie. Here's an old post of mine with steps to access it.
Good luck.
You may find the folks at Accurate Shooter dot com more familiar with side saddle bench rest and less likely to comment on your bench setup. More people here are concerned with field position ability and using flat range for confirmation/practice. So the comments will come from this POV.
Sitting behind the bench, modified prone style is a good idea, to get square.
Sure. Feedback is fine. I’m not feeling too defensive. Not here to prove to anyone I know how to shoot. Nobody here knows my experience, and it is snipers hide after all.
The basic truth of internet posting at this point in internet history is, most folks well overstate things and consider their online self a sort of ideal self, and really honest people are rare. Aside from that, nobody is telling you that you are a lousy shooter when they comment on anything in your setup. I don't know anyone who can't benefit from improvements -- in any endeavor. Work, athletics, or combinations of the two.
You actually might be able to work a stool/seat of some kind, but it will likely require a spin-top bar stool or a whole lot of different thickness pads to get the seat height just right. But if your body can manage modified prone it is a more square relation to the rifle, and less likely to induce windage-oriented swings.
Indeed. Shooter, equipment, environment are all factors. Working on all 3.
If you approach it as opportunities to learn, to improve, to refine things -- well that's the biggest part of the learning journey accomplished. I've taught a few different athletic things/sports/activities, and the greatest hurdle to learning in all of them is the attitude of "I got this, I just need the teacher to confirm my level of skill for me." That student will never learn a thing. Unless completely by accident, in a future moment of rare humble reflection.
Sure. Benchrest isn’t my goal, though, so improvising with what I have for the sake of load development.
Even still -- that forum at Accurate Shooter, even though it focuses mainly on bench rest and F-Class, contains some interesting discussions on reloading problems -- as seen by their user group of bench rest & F Class shooters/aspirants. You may find alternative thoughts on your original post if you go over there.
I may be off-base in this analogy but I think of bench rest as focusing on the machine itself, whereas this forum focuses on how best to use the machine, while wanting the machine field-optimized.
I may be off-base in this analogy but I think of bench rest as focusing on the machine itself, whereas this forum focuses on how best to use the machine, while wanting the machine field-optimized.
