Reloading to accuracy on bolt action

[PKTrusty]

I have a Daniel Defense Delta 5 with a Nightforce Atacr 5-25. This was my first time shooting this setup and confirmed and set zero at 100. Shot two types of ammo that I had done well. My best group was about a 1.5 inch group. Most likely me but my question is, how much of an improvement do hand loads make?

Back in the day, I used to hand load for a .308 I had and I used to set the overall case length to .010 over the chamber length so it was setting case length and seating when I closed the bolt. I sold my setup about 6 years ago but I am getting back into shooting. Just wanted to confirm what people are doing and what kind of results over stock ammo someone can expect?

Thanks

 

[BobinNC]

....Back in the day, I used to hand load for a .308 I had and I used to set the overall case length to .010 over the chamber length so it was setting case length and seating when I closed the bolt...

I don't know what you were reloading for "Back in the Day" or why, but since the aforementioned DD Delta 5 has a magazine, the #1 rule of reloading for a magazine feed rifles is: " Your load has to fit and feed from the magazine."

That said, loading +.010 over chamber length and setting the case length and seating when you close the bolt is usually a bad idea. The caveat being Benchrest & F-Class shooting can get away with such "shortcuts", but PRS or Hunting scenarios cannot.

And since the DD Delta 5 is mainly a PRS rifle (and can be used for hunting, I guess) that calls for different techniques than those you used in the past.

As far as how much improvement reloading makes over factory fodder, it depends. Trying only two types of factory loads is hardly conclusive. You don't say what you rifle is chambered for, so it's hard for me to make anything declarative as to the worth or variety of factory loads you tested vs reloading.

More information would be helpful, but in my experience careful handloading can usually lead to very accurate ammo. But then again Federal GMM & Berger are making some pretty good factory ammo. But it does not come cheap for sustained use.

So what are you planning to accomplish with your new stick??

 

[DeathBeforeDismount]

The barrels on those rifles are horrific. Best bet is to buy a new rifle or at the least rebarrel it, but that's just throwing good money after bad.

 

[ShtrRdy]

Well, it depends on a lot of variables but if you have a good barrel on a good rifle, you should be able to get 1/2" at 100 yds or better.

On one of my rifles I was working up a load for, everything I tried on it was less than 1" at 100 yards. My latest testing experiment looks like I found a sweet spot that will be under 1/3" at 100 yards.


(click on to get larger picture)

 

[Sogan]

Hows the chassis though? Looks pretty good and somewhat similar to MDT ESS

 

[diggler1833]

Back in the day, I used to hand load for a .308 I had and I used to set the overall case length to .010 over the chamber length so it was setting case length and seating when I closed the bolt.

Thanks

I'm assuming you mean that you jammed .010, in that your overall cartridge length was .010 longer than when you measured a specific bullet to the lands??? If you were jamming the case mouth into the chamber, well, that would be a new one for me... but I haven't seen everything yet.

Handloading will always beat factory ammo... as long as the dude doing the handloading is a sticker for attention to detail and not careless. Some dudes unfortunately have no business around a press. How much your particular handload will help regarding accuracy depends on a lot of factors. I've even had a barrel or two that almost shot best with factory ammo. I've had other barrels where handloading cut groups in half or even more.

 

[PKTrusty]

It was a trick someone taught me years ago about setting your case length .010 over chamber length. I idea is you are kind of doing the final seat of the bullet when you chamber. I have heard guys do but but you clearly can go too far.

I don’t really love the action on the Daniel defense 5. Mine isn’t the pro so it is an actual stock with an adjustable cheek well.

I will say it maybe partially me. I haven’t really shot rifles in 7-8 years. Race cars got too expensive and it became my primary hobby. I haven’t had a hell of couple years here and now race cars are out of the equation so here I am. I like the idea of hunting but what my long term use for this gun outside of just shooting depends on my health over the remainder of the year.

 

[PKTrusty]

I won’t say I am the most precise person. I weight the bullets prior too and would only use bullets with .001 grain of each other. I think some people would be surprised manufacturering variation. I also used a digital scale and nailed my weight and my overall case length.

 

[DownhillFromHere]

Nobody has asked, "What ammunition have you tried?"

I'm thinking about the guy at my "home club" who had a shiny new CZ 457 MTR .22 and asked me if I could help him (I was zeroing my Vudoo after an optic change). "I thought these things were supposed to be accurate," said he. "I can't get better than an inch and a half at fifty yards."

So I walk over to his bench, and there beside his nice rifle is a big ol' Remington Bucket O' Bullets. Sigh.

So short version is I gave him a box of SK Standard+ and five minutes later he was shooting dime-size groups.

OP, what ammo are you using? If it's bulk white-box 150 grain ball, there's you're problem. I'm not a .308 guy at all, but if you're running cheap ammo, try something like Hornady 168gr ELDM or Federal 168gr SMK Gold Medal Match.

I know nothing about that rifle, but even cheap bolt-action factory rifles are usually capable of sub-1-inch 100-yard groups with half-decent ammo. If your rifle can't do better than 1.5 MOA at 100 with the aforementioned brands, something is wrong with the rifle or the shooter. Handloading isn't going to fix it. Handloads might reduce a 5/8" group @100 to 1/2 or 3/8, but it isn't going to shrink a 1.5+ inch group to anything near the 1/2 inch or better groups a rifle that expensive should produce with a competent shooter running it.

Good luck.

 

[PKTrusty]

I used some cheap Winchester target ammo to do a rough zero then federal gold and Hornaday ELD Match.

 

[PKTrusty]

I will get some more trigger time to see and shoot another group next week.

 

[6.5SH]

I won’t say I am the most precise person. I weight the bullets prior too and would only use bullets with .001 grain of each other. I think some people would be surprised manufacturering variation. I also used a digital scale and nailed my weight and my overall case length.

You seem to be using case and cartridge interchangeably, this can lead to very bad things.

 

[Thump_rrr]

Went to shoot 22’s with my buddy/shooting partner on Friday.
My buddy brings out his brand new never fired Bergara B-14R Carbon. He has SK Standard Plus, SK Rifle Match, Lapua Center-X, RWS Rifle Match and some sort of Eley.

He gets it on paper at 50y.
He then starts shootings groups of every type of ammo. After shooting 50 rounds he turns to me and says it patterns like a shotgun.

I go sit down behind his rifle and go to focus the eyepiece and I feel the scope move.
The scope base is loose.

This is a guy who has been shooting competitively for over a decade.

 

[Jdowns0415]

I have a delta 5 pro and have shot multiple 15-20 shot continuous strings out of it and they were below a minute.

6.5 creedmoor Small rifle primer brass, Berger 140 hybrids. 41.5 H4350, CCI450, 2.850 COAL so they would feed in bolt gun mags and my AR10. You can do the same load with a Sierra 142, hornady 140 ELDM it will have similar results. Or just buy Berger factory ammo.

The delta 5 honestly shoots great for me, I wish they would make barrels again (proof stopped making them because they didn’t sell many and they only sold carbon fiber) but they’re always out of stock.

 

[PKTrusty]

You seem to be using case and cartridge interchangeably, this can lead to very bad things.

i got it. I believe it is normally referred to OAL rather than cartridge length. I have it straight in my head. They really only make sense on the correct context anyway.

 

[diggler1833]

It was a trick someone taught me years ago about setting your case length .010 over chamber length. I idea is you are kind of doing the final seat of the bullet when you chamber. I have heard guys do but but you clearly can go too far.

I don’t really love the action on the Daniel defense 5. Mine isn’t the pro so it is an actual stock with an adjustable cheek well.

I will say it maybe partially me. I haven’t really shot rifles in 7-8 years. Race cars got too expensive and it became my primary hobby. I haven’t had a hell of couple years here and now race cars are out of the equation so here I am. I like the idea of hunting but what my long term use for this gun outside of just shooting depends on my health over the remainder of the year.

As someone else also stated above, you might be using "case" and "cartridge" interchangeably.

Jamming a bullet (cartridge) is still popular in some circles - but you can run into pressure much faster than jumping.

Jamming a case (the brass case itself) into the chamber wouldn't seat a bullet any further as it would be the case that's contacting the chamber, and not the bullet. I don't think you'd be able to close the bolt at all to be honest if you were trying to crush your cases .010.

If what I said doesn't make sense, you should probably experiment with various factory loaded ammo until you found the one that shot best.

 

[Ronin22]

I’m always puzzled some people call Hornady, Horn-A-Day…

 

[Hickswr]

Well, it depends on a lot of variables but if you have a good barrel on a good rifle, you should be able to get 1/2" at 100 yds or better.

On one of my rifles I was working up a load for, everything I tried on it was less than 1" at 100 yards. My latest testing experiment looks like I found a sweet spot that will be under 1/3" at 100 yards.


(click on to get larger picture)
View attachment 8735575

Your results only prove that if a rifle likes a certain powder/bullet combo then it will shoot accurately despite the charge weight.

Great shooting!! But these groups don’t tell you anything more than the rifle likes what you are feeding it.

Shoot the same test again and post the results up if you think (good) 3-shot groups are insightful.

 

[PKTrusty]

As someone else also stated above, you might be using "case" and "cartridge" interchangeably.

Jamming a bullet (cartridge) is still popular in some circles - but you can run into pressure much faster than jumping.

Jamming a case (the brass case itself) into the chamber wouldn't seat a bullet any further as it would be the case that's contacting the chamber, and not the bullet. I don't think you'd be able to close the bolt at all to be honest if you were trying to crush your cases .010.

If what I said doesn't make sense, you should probably experiment with various factory loaded ammo until you found the one that shot best.

I’ve been in manufacturing and maintenance my whole life. Jamming the bullet is a bit dramatic. Seating it to chamber length is more accurate. .010 is literally not a big deal.

 

[spife7980]

I’ve been in manufacturing and maintenance my whole life. Jamming the bullet is a bit dramatic. Seating it to chamber length is more accurate. .010 is literally not a big deal.

It is if you want your terminology to mean anything to anyone else.

 

[Turkeytider]

I have a Daniel Defense Delta 5 with a Nightforce Atacr 5-25. This was my first time shooting this setup and confirmed and set zero at 100. Shot two types of ammo that I had done well. My best group was about a 1.5 inch group. Most likely me but my question is, how much of an improvement do hand loads make?

Back in the day, I used to hand load for a .308 I had and I used to set the overall case length to .010 over the chamber length so it was setting case length and seating when I closed the bolt. I sold my setup about 6 years ago but I am getting back into shooting. Just wanted to confirm what people are doing and what kind of results over stock ammo someone can expect?

Thanks

Absolutely just one guy’s opinion, but if my chronograph has taught me anything it’s that if you ever want to TRULY know just how accurate and precise your rifle can be, you have to hand load. I don’t, so I have to accept that. Certainly understand better the difficulty in stringing hits together on 3” gongs at 500 yards!

 

[DownhillFromHere]

Absolutely just one guy’s opinion, but if my chronograph has taught me anything it’s that if you ever want to TRULY know just how accurate and precise your rifle can be, you have to hand load.

There is some truth here. But OP has a far greater issue: 1.5 MOA is the best he's getting at 100 yards.

Any half-decent bolt gun should shoot .6-.7MOA 5-shot groups with Hornady or Federal factory match (or even "Black" or "American Gunner" value ammo in the Hornady line). Handloading is not going to make a 1.5MOA rifle (or shooter) shoot "accurate and precise." He needs to resolve the underlying problem before even thinking about pouring money into handloading.

 

[Turkeytider]

There is some truth here. But OP has a far greater issue: 1.5 MOA is the best he's getting at 100 yards.

Any half-decent bolt gun should shoot .6-.7MOA 5-shot groups with Hornady or Federal factory match (or even "Black" or "American Gunner" value ammo in the Hornady line). Handloading is not going to make a 1.5MOA rifle (or shooter) shoot "accurate and precise." He needs to resolve the underlying problem before even thinking about pouring money into handloading.

No argument. My Tikka Super Varmint in 6.5 will easily shoot those numbers with any number of factory loads at 100 yards . At 500, variability in MV really begins to show up in hits ( or not ! ) on 2 and 3” gongs. As if that’s not enough, one factors in all the other things that can impact the accuracy of a given shot, and it doesn’t take much to miss! At least for me!

 

[Ronin22]

There is some truth here. But OP has a far greater issue: 1.5 MOA is the best he's getting at 100 yards.

Any half-decent bolt gun should shoot .6-.7MOA 5-shot groups with Hornady or Federal factory match (or even "Black" or "American Gunner" value ammo in the Hornady line). Handloading is not going to make a 1.5MOA rifle (or shooter) shoot "accurate and precise." He needs to resolve the underlying problem before even thinking about pouring money into handloading.

According to Horn-A-Day that needs to be 30rnd group, so then that’s pretty damn great!

 

[R_A_W]

I weight the bullets prior too and would only use bullets with .001 grain of each other.

100% of that time was wasted. What bullets were they?

i got it.

I believe it is normally referred to OAL rather than cartridge length.

You’re using COAL measurements to describe a CBTO spec, that doesn’t work

.010 is literally not a big deal.

0.010” literally can be a huge deal, you really should consider sticking to factory ammo

Am I missing what chamber your DD has? Guessing .308?

…if it quacks like a duck…

 

[diggler1833]

I’ve been in manufacturing and maintenance my whole life. Jamming the bullet is a bit dramatic. Seating it to chamber length is more accurate. .010 is literally not a big deal.

You have no clue about the terminology of what you're talking about here, do you? This isn't an insult, this was an attempt to assist you.

When you are chambering a loaded round (and not a case), the process of you forcing the bullet into its final seating position into the lands by running the bolt forward and closing it - and therefore pushing the bullet back into the case - is called "jamming". You seating a bullet .010 long and seating it fully when you close the bolt... is called "jamming".

However, since you failed to distinguish the difference between "cartridge" and "case" several times...

...you will find excellent deals on factory ammunition at Ammoseek.com. buy in bulk, you'll save some money.

Best of luck to you Sir.

 

[Ronin22]

You have no clue about the terminology of what you're talking about here, do you? This isn't an insult, this was an attempt to assist you.

When you are chambering a loaded round (and not a case), the process of you forcing the bullet into its final seating position into the lands by running the bolt forward and closing it - and therefore pushing the bullet back into the case - is called "jamming". You seating a bullet .010 long and seating it fully when you close the bolt... is called "jamming".

However, since you failed to distinguish the difference between "cartridge" and "case" several times...

...you will find excellent deals on factory ammunition at Ammoseek.com. buy in bulk, you'll save some money.

Best of luck to you Sir.

Hoo-Wee! Bro dropped the resume bomb on you too and you’ve remained the ever stoic!

 

[AutoBolt308]

Worked up some hand loads on a Franchi Momentum Elite in 6.5 Creedmoor and shot this ladder test yesterday at 100 yards. Chamber measured 2.224” with Hornady comparitor. Less than $1,000.00 in this rig!

 

[Marine52]

Worked up some hand loads on a Franchi Momentum Elite in 6.5 Creedmoor and shot this ladder test yesterday at 100 yards. Chamber measured 2.224” with Hornady comparitor. Less than $1,000.00 in this rig!

Your terminology is confusing. Do the numbers you have on each group correspond to a cartridge Base-to-Ogive (CBTO) measurement? What are you referring to with your chamber measurement?

 

[PKTrusty]

100% of that time was wasted. What bullets were they?

View attachment 8735738

You’re using COAL measurements to describe a CBTO spec, that doesn’t work


0.010” literally can be a huge deal, you really should consider sticking to factory ammo

Am I missing what chamber your DD has? Guessing .308?

…if it quacks like a duck…

I get it, I have been off the internet for a while. I forgot what it is like so my bad. The OAL in my manual shows the tolerance of OAL or maybe you call it COAL as .125. That is literally a 1/8 of a inch. Maybe my manual is wrong. Min is 2.700" and max is 2.875".

According to Google:

The overall length (OAL) of a loaded cartridge is the total length from the base of the case to the tip of the seated bullet.

COAL, or Cartridge Overall Length, refers to the total length of a loaded cartridge, measured from the base of the cartridge case to the tip of the seated bullet.

CBTO, or Cartridge Base to Ogive, is a measurement used in handloading to determine the distance from the base of the cartridge case to the ogive (the curved portion) of the bullet.

I wouldnt use a CBTO. There is likely enough variation in bullet form that I rather use the OAL.

I probably have no idea what I am talking about or using the wrong terminology right. Its not like the made gages measuring it called OAL.

Amazon.com : Hornady C1000 Lock-N-Load OAL Length Gauge (Straight),Metal : Gunsmithing Tools And Accessories : Sports & Outdoors

Amazon.com : Hornady C1000 Lock-N-Load OAL Length Gauge (Straight),Metal : Gunsmithing Tools And Accessories : Sports & Outdoors

www.amazon.com

 

[PKTrusty]

Your terminology is confusing. Do the numbers you have on each group correspond to a cartridge Base-to-Ogive (CBTO) measurement? What are you referring to with your chamber measurement?

I dont measure to ogive. I have always seated to a OAL that is .010 greater than I have measured to ensure any variation in bullet form still doesnt jump but what do I know.

 

[PKTrusty]

There is some truth here. But OP has a far greater issue: 1.5 MOA is the best he's getting at 100 yards.

Any half-decent bolt gun should shoot .6-.7MOA 5-shot groups with Hornady or Federal factory match (or even "Black" or "American Gunner" value ammo in the Hornady line). Handloading is not going to make a 1.5MOA rifle (or shooter) shoot "accurate and precise." He needs to resolve the underlying problem before even thinking about pouring money into handloading.

It is probably me. My hands tremble due to health issues and I was shooting off a bipod.

 

[6.5SH]

I get it, I have been off the internet for a while. I forgot what it is like so my bad. The OAL in my manual shows the tolerance of OAL or maybe you call it COAL as .125. That is literally a 1/8 of a inch. Maybe my manual is wrong. Min is 2.700" and max is 2.875".

According to Google:

The overall length (OAL) of a loaded cartridge is the total length from the base of the case to the tip of the seated bullet.

COAL, or Cartridge Overall Length, refers to the total length of a loaded cartridge, measured from the base of the cartridge case to the tip of the seated bullet.

CBTO, or Cartridge Base to Ogive, is a measurement used in handloading to determine the distance from the base of the cartridge case to the ogive (the curved portion) of the bullet.

I wouldnt use a CBTO. There is likely enough variation in bullet form that I rather use the OAL.

I probably have no idea what I am talking about or using the wrong terminology right. Its not like the made gages measuring it called OAL.

Amazon.com : Hornady C1000 Lock-N-Load OAL Length Gauge (Straight),Metal : Gunsmithing Tools And Accessories : Sports & Outdoors

Amazon.com : Hornady C1000 Lock-N-Load OAL Length Gauge (Straight),Metal : Gunsmithing Tools And Accessories : Sports & Outdoors

www.amazon.com

Measuring CBTO with a comparator and the length of your particular chamber with a specific bullet in this dimension is how the whole "seat 0.010 long and let the chamber set the length" thing works, along with a loose enough neck tension to allow it to move Vs engrave.

 

[AutoBolt308]

Your terminology is confusing. Do the numbers you have on each group correspond to a cartridge Base-to-Ogive (CBTO) measurement? What are you referring to with your chamber measurement?

Yes all I measure by is CBTO and feel COAL is not accurate as meat plats can vary too much with in manufacturing projectiles.

 

[R_A_W]

I wouldnt use a CBTO. There is likely enough variation in bullet form that I rather use the OAL.

COAL will only tell you if a round will feed from a magazine, at least for now

Bullet engagement in/with the rifling lands plays an important role in precision & variation in timing of engagement can have a significant impact. Consistency here is achieved by measuring the distance of the rifling lands from base a case to a consistent point along the ogive, using the tool you linked above as well as an ogive comparator and calipers.

By using COAL instead of CBTO, you’re achieving consistent COAL lengths at the expense of CBTO consistency. You’ve minimized the impact of bullet irregularities to cartridge overall length (to no benefit, as variation here is generally not terribly important), but guaranteed irregularities in the “jump” from one loaded round to the next (or distance from the ogive to engagement, to which some bullets are impossibly sensitive).

Using your method, you may not be seating to a jam of 0.010” - bullet shape varies & with it, CBTO length at jam.

Jamming a bullet can be done safely, but it can also end up being the straw that broke the camel’s back. It’s a reloading choice made in tandem with powder selection, charge weight, and neck interference. There are too many good bullets that are very easy to load safely and accurately without a jam - in my opinion, new reloaders should avoid seating to or near a jam. If for no other reason, to avoid headaches

 

[Turkeytider]

I get it, I have been off the internet for a while. I forgot what it is like so my bad. The OAL in my manual shows the tolerance of OAL or maybe you call it COAL as .125. That is literally a 1/8 of a inch. Maybe my manual is wrong. Min is 2.700" and max is 2.875".

According to Google:

The overall length (OAL) of a loaded cartridge is the total length from the base of the case to the tip of the seated bullet.

COAL, or Cartridge Overall Length, refers to the total length of a loaded cartridge, measured from the base of the cartridge case to the tip of the seated bullet.

CBTO, or Cartridge Base to Ogive, is a measurement used in handloading to determine the distance from the base of the cartridge case to the ogive (the curved portion) of the bullet.

I wouldnt use a CBTO. There is likely enough variation in bullet form that I rather use the OAL.

I probably have no idea what I am talking about or using the wrong terminology right. Its not like the made gages measuring it called OAL.

Amazon.com : Hornady C1000 Lock-N-Load OAL Length Gauge (Straight),Metal : Gunsmithing Tools And Accessories : Sports & Outdoors

Amazon.com : Hornady C1000 Lock-N-Load OAL Length Gauge (Straight),Metal : Gunsmithing Tools And Accessories : Sports & Outdoors

www.amazon.com

Woof!! WAY too complicated for an old guy like me! Hand loading has always looked like a combo of art and science to me. I envy those that have the space, time , money and knowledge to do it. It looks like quite the rabbit hole with a language all its own. I’m also convinced that’s it’s the only route to TRUE accuracy and precision.

 

[R_A_W]

WAY too complicated for an old guy like me! Hand loading has always looked like a combo of art and science to me.

In reality, it’s not that difficult to produce reloads better than nearly all factory ammunition safely, even with the most basic, entry-level tools & equipment.

You can get away with a lot, but there are a handful key aspects you want to carefully measure or control for for the sake of safety & precision

space, time , money

After two and a half decades of reloading, I assure you these cannot be overestimated

 

[Ronin22]

I dont measure to ogive. I have always seated to a OAL that is .010 greater than I have measured to ensure any variation in bullet form still doesnt jump but what do I know.

Why not take the slop out of your program and measure CBTO? Who cares if one bullet is longer bullet base to tip, that tip just protrudes farther into the barrel on a longer bullet, but the initial contact of the bullet with the rifling is within .002 variance measuring CBTO.

The only time I measure COAL is to make sure my AR10 rounds fit in the magazine without rubbing the tips on the front of the mags. That is not for precision, but mag dumping on packs of hogs. Precision rounds always CBTO.

 

[Turkeytider]

In reality, it’s not that difficult to produce reloads better than nearly all factory ammunition safely, even with the most basic, entry-level tools & equipment.

You can get away with a lot, but there are a handful key aspects you want to carefully measure or control for for the sake of safety & precision


After two and a half decades of reloading, I assure you these cannot be overestimated

One of the things I’ve noticed at 77 is that my attention span and attention to detail isn’t what it once was. IMO, not characteristics that go well with working with things that explode!

 

[ShtrRdy]

Your results only prove that if a rifle likes a certain powder/bullet combo then it will shoot accurately despite the charge weight.

Great shooting!! But these groups don’t tell you anything more than the rifle likes what you are feeding it.

Shoot the same test again and post the results up if you think (good) 3-shot groups are insightful.

I loaded some more up with 40.9 grains of H4350. Here's a picture of a 5-shot group at 100 yds.

(click on for larger image)

 

[Thump_rrr]

The problem with loading to a jam is twofold.
Firstly if you need to unload the rifle once a cartridge is in the chamber and the bolt is closed you risk leaving the bullet in the rifling and a chamber full of powder.
Secondly if the rifle is a barrel burner or it is shot a lot you will be chasing the rifling.

Any bullet with a tangent ogive will be more forgiving to seating depth.
Same goes with hybrid bullets.
For target shooting my choices are Lapua Scenar, Hornady ELD-M, and Berger Hybrid Target (combination tangent and secant ogive).