I'm not too new to reloading but only really getting serious into rifle this year. If I were to read the forums, here and elsewhere, it would seem that the method to work up a load is to start in the middle of the data and then work up until your gun starts doing fucked up things to your brass. What's the deal with this advice? It clearly ignores the measured pressure limits, it's likely not going to blow up your gun but it will reduce brass and barrel life and likely reduce your precision. Is it just the natural tendency for monkeys to max things out to the point that they break? Why don't people just go to a larger cartridge if they want to stuff too much powder in? What am I missing?
Why do people load so hot?
- Thread starter Salmon Exceptional Ape
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I to am new to reloading rifle ammo but to assume that everyone that has more experience then you is a Monkey is pretty silly. Its probably because the book max is way low compared to real world application. Your also posting on the only form that I've ever been on with a huge wealth of good knowledge and very little BS. The assumption that you would loose precision shows your lack of understanding. Accuracy nodes vary with velocity and pushing velocity is a good thing if accuracy and ES are where they need to be. It will allow you to have better accuracy at distance, with less effect on the bullet from environmental conditions.
The faster a bullet goes the less wind will impact flight and you have statistically better chance of elevation being more accurate from shooting more flat.
None of the above is worth anything without accuracy keeping up and people arent hurting their guns. They get heavy bolt lift or ejector swipe and back off.
Also, I think you’re conflating the common practice of experienced reloaders with what you assume to be advice. If you ask most of us for reloading advice we are absolutely NOT going to tell you to go chase a max load. I’m going to tell you to pick the middle of the book and not be concerned with pushing maxes or chasing speed.
None of the above is worth anything without accuracy keeping up and people arent hurting their guns. They get heavy bolt lift or ejector swipe and back off.
Also, I think you’re conflating the common practice of experienced reloaders with what you assume to be advice. If you ask most of us for reloading advice we are absolutely NOT going to tell you to go chase a max load. I’m going to tell you to pick the middle of the book and not be concerned with pushing maxes or chasing speed.
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Online people always talk about "lawyer loads" and how load data is conservative but the load data includes pressure data (often) that corresponds with the accepted SAAMI or whoever pressure limits. Why does everyone think that the pressure limits are irrelevant? And again to the point, you don't have to exceed pressure if you just shoot a larger cartridge. Like if you neeeeed a 6mm that goes 3k you can either stuff too much powder into 6BR or you can just have a mild load in 6CM or 6GT even gets close based on book data. That goes for any cartridge we have, by and large there's always something bigger where you can go faster and bigger with a medium amount of pressure. But the main thing is that "pressure sign" doesn't actually tell you how much pressure you have it just tells you that your system is literally failing, it seems very haphazard and unnecessary. Incidentally, the idea of lower dispersion with loads lower than maximum pressure is from the Hornady ballisticians among other sources.
You Sir, are light years ahead, and not even out the gate! Took me 30yrs to rest on the sentiments you described.
I can’t get many to follow my advice of using the primer pocket growth as THE indicator to read pressure. Basically, if you’re not enlarging the primer pocket by .0005 on first firing, and a few subsequent firings maintain .001 growth, you’re all set on a brass savings, more than likely, good shooting/non punishing load.
Most people are already beyond that point and don’t know it.
Nothing, you've hit the nail on the head. Most forum-dwellers aren't really aware of how high their pressures are. Some are and choose to accept the risks/costs that come with it.
You aren’t missing anything. Like the diesel pickup owner that blows his daily driver motor or tranny screwing around on the weekend at a truck pull, most reloaders scoff at reasonable brass life or upgrading to a 300-378 Weatherby. Good quality gear and components will last if used in the middle of their capabilities. I could get another 100 fps out of my 300PRC load. Thing is, my expensive brass is not growing and the pockets are still tight.
I confess—I load nuclear 10mm when loading 10mm, because that's how one should load 10mm.
...but for rifle, are you sure you're reading 'work up until your gun starts doing foked up chit to your brass' and not working up until you see the slightest signs of pressure, then back down to a safe load, simply to know your upper and lower bounds and keep you out of trouble?
For example, with 6 Dasher, some books cap (Sierra especially) at like 2500fps, which is ridiculous slow even for a BR. So I would work up until I see a very faint ejector mark/feel a slight heavy bolt lift/start to see the primers flattening, etc, etc...just to know where the red line in the sand is drawn, then back down to a place where a few extra kernels here and there and some dirt in my chamber/rainy conditions isn't going to push the pressure envelope. That becomes my 'max' and I search for the best load lower than that. It's the first thing I do with any new caliber.
In terms of the Dasher, I hit 2980 with zero signs and could have continued stuffing a few more tenths in there easily and been safe, but I wanted to be slower than that, so took the best load between my new min/max @2860fps and never looked back (and have a load in the 2700s that rival that load). But at least I know where I am on the pressure curve, per se, and will never have an issue.
...but I wouldn't recommend settling on 2500 or 2600 or 2700 when your bullet/barrel/powder combination could reward you if you had continued searching for what it liked to eat and could have starting shootings 0s/1s @2950fps with zero signs of pressure. You won't know when you stop at book max that is sometimes drastically understated for obvious reasons.
If I switch powders, I do another truncated ladder and see if I can reach the same upper threshold with no pressure signs and know where to start (and end) load development.
I am not saying I recommend people try to run their 6 dashers at 6 creed speeds, and I hear what you're saying and completely agree that if you are pushing the envelope, move up a caliber to where you are trying to be...but finding pressure has it's place in reloading for sure.
At one of our dinners during Frank & Marc's Nebraska class a few weeks ago, I talked about this with one of the other students. I told him about my late teens early 20s doing car hop-up stuff, and friends who would roach one engine after another without learning a lesson. Some people just want to push it to the limit and then even see what happens post-limit. One particular friend of mine just would not stop ragging his engines, 4 cars in a row didn't teach him.
I like going fast but I don't like blowing things up. I go at it pretty conservatively as a new (1 yr) reloading guy.
I like going fast but I don't like blowing things up. I go at it pretty conservatively as a new (1 yr) reloading guy.
“It’s 200fps over max load data, but tHeREs nO PResSuRE siGnS”
I used to shoot suspicious internet load data through our calibrated pressure and velocity test barrels until I got a few that were well north of 80ksi and I decided fucking up a couple thousand dollar transducer wasn't worth my entertainment.
If you think it's bad here, go check out long range hunting forum. They load .300NMs with heavies to .22-250 50 grain load speeds.
Some people just are genetically predisposed to push the limits. I'm not one of them, but it can be fun to watch from a safe distance.
Most loading data is lawyered and watered down but every gun is different so precede with caution over max it ok to k ow whats max for yours. I wouldn't worry anybody else pressure cooker but yours.
The thing is, mostly none of us have pressure testing equipment, and by the time the brass starts to cry uncle we are generally way over pressure.
This is why I like to proof out a new load on the same brass I did load development with by running that 50 peices to death. It Let's me watch the primer pocket long term and see if it's a load I want to go into production with. Let's me check the die setting and compatibility with the chamber long term also.
This is why I like to proof out a new load on the same brass I did load development with by running that 50 peices to death. It Let's me watch the primer pocket long term and see if it's a load I want to go into production with. Let's me check the die setting and compatibility with the chamber long term also.
While much load data is watered down, some isn't. A couple of Alliant's maxes are pretty damn destructive on brass. I never thought I'd toast Lake City 5.56 brass on the 3rd load...but here I am.
One is also assuming that the loads posted by forum members on various sites are true. I would suppose that anywhere from a quarter to half of them are fabricated.
It started about 8-10 years ago when guys began trying to 'out velocity' each other. The practice is now very much like trying to post the tightest groups. As soon as you add the element if competition to it, you have dudes who are willing to sacrifice integrity and/or safety for the accolades of strangers on an internet forum.
There are a few YouTube channels even where guys do almost nothing but live on the edge of pressure and shoot crappy 3-shot groups. At least those ones are usually honest regarding velocity... they're just sacrificing brass for the sake of "like, share, and subscribe".
One is also assuming that the loads posted by forum members on various sites are true. I would suppose that anywhere from a quarter to half of them are fabricated.
It started about 8-10 years ago when guys began trying to 'out velocity' each other. The practice is now very much like trying to post the tightest groups. As soon as you add the element if competition to it, you have dudes who are willing to sacrifice integrity and/or safety for the accolades of strangers on an internet forum.
There are a few YouTube channels even where guys do almost nothing but live on the edge of pressure and shoot crappy 3-shot groups. At least those ones are usually honest regarding velocity... they're just sacrificing brass for the sake of "like, share, and subscribe".
As a reloader for over 50 years I would guess that this started due to flat trajectory helping get hits at longer and unknown ranges. Prior to LRF’s and scopes that could accurately be dialed for range a 400 yard hunting shot was considered very long range. So, limits were pushed to make up for mis guesses of range.
Leaning on a handload is nothing new. There were guys stuffing more black powder in a muzzleloader because that had to make it more powerful and flatter shooting a long time ago.
I’ve leaned on stuff both on purpose and on accident. I don’t push stuff as hard as I used to, I just kinda figure where I want to be and work the load up from there.
FWIW, the closest I ever came to ballistic disassembly was when some powder bridged in my Uniflow when I had left the small spout in it, not because I was loading heavy, so be careful even if you’re “loading light”.
I’ve leaned on stuff both on purpose and on accident. I don’t push stuff as hard as I used to, I just kinda figure where I want to be and work the load up from there.
FWIW, the closest I ever came to ballistic disassembly was when some powder bridged in my Uniflow when I had left the small spout in it, not because I was loading heavy, so be careful even if you’re “loading light”.
That goes along with there's moderate bolt lift, an ejector mark and the primers are only slightly flattened...
Then they'll tell you they get 4-5 reloads out of their Lapua brass before the primer pockets loosen up.
I hear you.
People have no idea how quickly pressure goes from a bit high to spiking up to and beyond 80ksi.
The x-ducers don't lie.
Welcome to the Hide, home of the pissing hot handloads.
Okay, maybe I just thought that we owned that title.
You'd enjoy hanging around myself and a few of my family members.
I used to have an old speer manual that belonged to my one of my grandfathers. It had to be first or second edition. The max load for imr4831 in a 300winmag with a 180 wouldn't even fit in the case.
Then, in some other cases, as @diggler1833 pointed out, some data isn't neutered. Dad's 270 for example. Dad always favored the 150's. The old speer manual listed 58gr imr 4831 max with a 150. Their load almost 30 years ago was 59gr. Shot good, no excessive pressure signs. Fast forward to 2025, I forget which book I looked at, max is 57gr, okay, cool. Old load 59, new max 57, I'll just start there and see what happens. Mistake.
I think max velocity was supposed to high 2800's. First shot stomped me. The hard plastic buttplate on dad's old BDL was imprinted into my shoulder and the Garmin said 3009 fps. I went in a pulled the rest immediately.
I tried reloading that first case, and when I tried to seat the primer I didn't feel anything. Lowered the ram and the primer was still sitting in the holder. Yeah, start on the lower side of somewhere in the middle.
Good point on running smaller batches of brass to death. I was one of those that if I had a couple hundred pieces, I would run through everything until it was all fireformed, then I'd go through it again.
The last one was my 300winmag. After about five firings on norma brass, I started finding cases that wouldn't fit in the shell holder anymore. Now I've got 200 pieces to weed through and shuck the bad ones.
But it's safe in my gun though.....That goes along with there's moderate bolt lift, an ejector mark and the primers are only slightly flattened...
Then they'll tell you they get 4-5 reloads out of their Lapua brass before the primer pockets loosen up.
It's silly to assume that he's talking about everybody. Funny how he's identified a stupid trend a lot of experienced hand loaders have seen as well. Also, which book are you talking about? They range quite differently like Hodgdon vs Hornady max data. There are listings in Hodgdon I would never attempt based upon my experience with certain powders. You show a greater lack of understanding and yet audaciously accuse someone else of the same. WOW.
"Your also posting on the only form that I've ever been on with a huge wealth of good knowledge and very little BS."
As you swoop in full of BS. Utterly amazing.
If your goal is to make your barrel and brass last forever, then stop shooting. You barrel and brass will last forever, problem solved.
If you have other goals, then you balance costs and benefits. A fast bullet shoots flatter and gets down range quicker so it is more tolerant of a not-so-good range call and wind. You might say, "so get a better range and spend more time on your wind call". That's a reasonable position unless working slowly costs you points in a match or if your target is shooting at you. If the cost to purchase, chamber, and fit a barrel is significant to you then you want to reduce the load to a point where it shoots well but wears the barrel throat more slowly. For some people barrel and brass cost is not important and they can tolerate the recoil, rapid barrel wear, and short case life. People who shoot dangerous pressure are taking a risk - most don't understand the risk but that is separate issue, I have observed two people blowing up guns with hot loads. Many reloading manuals publish numbers that were reviewed by lawyers so the manual author doesn't get sued if someone blows up a gun - their max load is not my max load, mine could be higher or lower.
I pay for my own barrels, reamer, chamber, and fit and the cost is significant to me. I do what one of the guys above suggests: I find the pressure point (I know how) and back down from there and choose a charge/velocity that gives me good precision. Starting from the pressure point, if the first precision point is close to pressure, I will probably go to the next lower one. I will probably pick the hottest precision point that is safe even if the ammo has been sitting in the sun and the gun is hot. I rarely shoot matches so I CAN take more time but I normally shoot fast (and may operate with a hot gun) because that is a skill worth having and must be practiced.
Ignorant people may do things that are dangerous because they don't understand. Some people have different values, capabilities, and requirements than you do. "Different" doesn't always mean "stupid", in their reality "different" might be smart - it depends.
It's hard to take what you say seriously if you just dismiss the load data as "lawyer loads", you can see the pressure and there's 3rd party testing out there that confirms that the pressures are accurate. But again the question leads to, why don't you just shoot a cartridge with more case capacity and run a slower powder and achieve the same higher velocity at lower pressure?
@XP1K Those old Speer manuals were HOT. 
Dad used to just look at whatever was max, and load that. I've had to add cylinder and yoke endshake bearings to two of his old S&W revolvers because he shot them loose in only about 3K rounds.
I'm still sitting on a ton of his old 240gr, .44 Mag loads with 11.0gr Unique. Same for .41 and .357 mag (different charges obviously, but still "max AF". Fortunately I have some Ruger revolvers.
Sane with his .410 shotgun loads with 2400. I've shot I think 8 shells (he gave me about 10 boxes) at snakes etc. around here, and have pierced probably 6 primers.
Dad used to just look at whatever was max, and load that. I've had to add cylinder and yoke endshake bearings to two of his old S&W revolvers because he shot them loose in only about 3K rounds.
I'm still sitting on a ton of his old 240gr, .44 Mag loads with 11.0gr Unique. Same for .41 and .357 mag (different charges obviously, but still "max AF". Fortunately I have some Ruger revolvers.
Sane with his .410 shotgun loads with 2400. I've shot I think 8 shells (he gave me about 10 boxes) at snakes etc. around here, and have pierced probably 6 primers.
I agree with @Maurygold here in that most experienced loaders aren’t going to tell you to run it up to max loads.
I’ve noticed in prs some of the local big names run their charges on the lower side. Lower recoil, better chances of seeing hits and misses and making corrections. I’ve started to follow that trend as long as my rifle hits where I’m wanting at distance, I see no point in running it on the high side.
Conversely, I’ve seen shooters run it on the ragged edge and as soon as rain or dust is introduced , blown primers, case head separation, heavy heavy bolt lift, stripped round stuck in chamber etc etc.
I’ve noticed in prs some of the local big names run their charges on the lower side. Lower recoil, better chances of seeing hits and misses and making corrections. I’ve started to follow that trend as long as my rifle hits where I’m wanting at distance, I see no point in running it on the high side.
Conversely, I’ve seen shooters run it on the ragged edge and as soon as rain or dust is introduced , blown primers, case head separation, heavy heavy bolt lift, stripped round stuck in chamber etc etc.
Because sometimes youz got's to know and there's only one way to find that out.
Darwin called it natural selection.
SJC
That's the bit that I don't get. You see it with surprising frequency (like almost 1-4 people that I notice or am squadded close enough to see at every match). Show up to a match and start popping primers, or it rains and you pop primers, or it's hotter than when you loaded the ammo and you can't cycle your bolt from behind the gun anymore, primers floating around in the action etc.
Most of a match score is made up by showing up to every stage and having you and your gear make it through... I don't know off the top of my head what hit the probability difference over a typical CoF is from 2750 vs. 2900fps, but I do know that fighting a bolt through 5-10 stages and doing gun surgery when you should be setting up dope & watching wind, and going back to the zero board 3 times is worth more than that hit probability difference...
At least the brass case head keeps people from going totaly retarded. 
Sometimes me and my 22-250AI just wanna see what Jesus looks like, ok?! Thought this was America.
And no clue what a pressure curve looks like - and when you go over pressure how much more quickly it spikes. I'm shooting a "slow" load out of my 300 PRC right now (like 100 fps slower than max) and I'm using a slower powder. I prefer it because:
- The impulse is lower because the pressure curve is flatter.
- Lower impulse tends toward being more consistent.
- Lower impulse = more manageable recoil and a more comfortable shot on higher recoil rounds.
People load hot for multiple reasons. Mainly I think now it is the equivalent of cartridge "drag racing." Kind of like "I ran 9's with a stock LS long block and a big turbo," never mind it only lasted 4 passes before popping a ring land, and you blew up 2 long blocks tuning it prior to any passes. And you could have just put in a properly beefed up motor from the beginning for the same price.
If you want to go faster shoot a faster cartridge. The incremental gains from a hotrodding are not worth it.
The prevalence of exceeding safe pressures is extremely high. I shoot a 22 Creed, and looking at the published max and pressure data by Peterson indicates many of the published loads in the 22 Creed thread are potentially WAY overpressure no matter which way you slice it.
If you want to go faster shoot a faster cartridge. The incremental gains from a hotrodding are not worth it.
The prevalence of exceeding safe pressures is extremely high. I shoot a 22 Creed, and looking at the published max and pressure data by Peterson indicates many of the published loads in the 22 Creed thread are potentially WAY overpressure no matter which way you slice it.
There are probably two basic reasons. The first is "because I can" which needs no explanation. The other is the only gauge on pressure is problems with case/primer so we tend to base maximum pressure based on individual component capability as opposed to the SAAMI pressure rating which is below any case/primer specific limit.
I will also not that some competitions almost require overpressure to be competitive. For instance F-T/R at 1000yds requires 308 Winchester to be loaded at to be competitive.
I will also not that some competitions almost require overpressure to be competitive. For instance F-T/R at 1000yds requires 308 Winchester to be loaded at to be competitive.
I should have mentioned that best precision typically occurs with >90% or so of case capacity. This provides consistent ignition of a uniform powder column so most loaders are going to be loading on the higher end of recommended load ranges.
I’m this era of super accurate handy chrono’s that can be used to approximate pressures based on published pressure tested data, I can only think of one reason.
Half of the people are dumber than average.
You aren’t missing anything.
I know people clown on this guy but there's some good info in the video, he has a pressure gauge and intentionally overloads 6GT to see what happens. So max book load is 34 gr Varget at 2900fps, he works up to 37 gr Varget and gains 300 fps, and is at 86k psi. A single grain over book max gets him up to 67k but 2 grains over and he's already up to 75k. Obviously people's guns aren't just literally exploding but it doesn't take that much powder to be crossing over 80k psi, less than a 9% increase from the book max. And again the point is why doesn't someone just use a cartridge with more capacity and run a slower powder and get the same velocity and not have pressure issues? I was actually asking, I am relatively new so I was genuinely curious if there was some kind of advantage but from what I'm reading here I'm not crazy haha
the Hodgdon published max for varget is 31.8 for a 107 so they aren't that far off?
Don't be a pussy..... This is Sniper's Hide where we START at 2 grains OVER max load! (Please note HEAVY SARCASM).
Performance comes at a cost and some guys are willing to pay that price. Personally, not so much. The 300 NM comes to mind where I hear of velocities over 3000-3100 fps with bullets 230 grains and heavier. I'm running 230s and barely getting to 2950.....
Take EVERYTHING online with a grain of salt and do some due diligence and extra homework to cross reference recommended loads, start low and work your way up to find what YOUR system allows. I always try to remember that ammunition is just a controlled explosion going off 6 inches in front of my face. My face may not be much to look at but everything is in the right place and still works!
Back to the Sniper's Hide mantra of high speed, low drag reloads. I leave you with these parting words: Go Be a Pussy Some Where Else!
GBPSWE!!!
Performance comes at a cost and some guys are willing to pay that price. Personally, not so much. The 300 NM comes to mind where I hear of velocities over 3000-3100 fps with bullets 230 grains and heavier. I'm running 230s and barely getting to 2950.....
Take EVERYTHING online with a grain of salt and do some due diligence and extra homework to cross reference recommended loads, start low and work your way up to find what YOUR system allows. I always try to remember that ammunition is just a controlled explosion going off 6 inches in front of my face. My face may not be much to look at but everything is in the right place and still works!
Back to the Sniper's Hide mantra of high speed, low drag reloads. I leave you with these parting words: Go Be a Pussy Some Where Else!
GBPSWE!!!
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There is no way in hell I’d give someone advice to stay in the middle and work up til you puncture a primer lol.
Hell, chamber to chamber is different. My .223 wylde chamber on my gas gun match rifle shows pressure at half way through what the book calls for on Tac and I get ridiculous velocities with 75g hornady match bthp compared to what the book calls for at my lighter load.
I’ll give all the advice you want on brass prep, tools, powder choices, etc but load data, well, that’s why they have books and GRT. Will I post mine? Sure, but I don’t load anywhere near “hot” on anything, I load for accuracy and then figure out the wind from there and that’s the advice I’d give anyone asking.
Hell, chamber to chamber is different. My .223 wylde chamber on my gas gun match rifle shows pressure at half way through what the book calls for on Tac and I get ridiculous velocities with 75g hornady match bthp compared to what the book calls for at my lighter load.
I’ll give all the advice you want on brass prep, tools, powder choices, etc but load data, well, that’s why they have books and GRT. Will I post mine? Sure, but I don’t load anywhere near “hot” on anything, I load for accuracy and then figure out the wind from there and that’s the advice I’d give anyone asking.
I send a friend of mine Internet data sometimes and ask him to give me the psi as he works for an ammo company in their lab. One load he sent back, “ dude, just don’t!”. LOL. But it’s safe in my rifle
."you can see the pressure" - sometimes I can and sometimes I don't . It is rare where the book is shooting the same barrel length, bullet, and case. My 308 loads usually show pressure in the primers - I shoot Federal 210Ms and 41.52 grains of IMR 4064. That is a moderate load going about 2,600 FPS - not hot. I shoot a 300 prc with 230 grain Bergers, 215M, H1000, and Lapua brass going 2,850. That is not a hot load - I have about 45 pieces of brass that went 16 full cycles without head separation. I expect to get more than 2,000 rounds thru my current barrel. I don't shoot hot because a barrel costs too much. I didn't say I shot hot, I said I know where pressure shows. I don't want to be close to that.
By the way, where is this 3rd party testing-pressure confirmation data with your barrel, powder, bullet, primer, case, and chamber? Where is that coming from?
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