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Suppressors relinquish rights?

gladiator8us

Private
Full Member
Minuteman
Feb 3, 2011
43
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63
Georgia, USA
I've heard from a bow hunter friend of mine that once you go the suppressor route, you've basically given the gov't permission to come to your residence at any time and they can search the premises to validate (not that they can't do this anyway) you are still in possession of said suppressor, is there any validity to this? Narrowing down the choices to the Gemtech Quicksand and TBAC 30BA, to use either interchangeably btwn 5.56/7.62
 
Re: relinquish rights?

Ya.. where do they come up with these things? Ask for proof or evidence.

-K
 
Re: relinquish rights?

I hear this shit all the time, absolute bullshit.
 
Re: relinquish rights?

i appreciate the prompt responses with correct feedback. thank you very much. consider thread dead.
 
Re: relinquish rights?

ATF has the right to come to the address on the Form 4 or call you and ask to see the item listed on the form and that is it. They must have a search warrant to search your home.

Have ATF agents showed up at peoples houses to see their NFA item? Yes usually because of a paperwork mistake on the part of the ATF registry, manufacturer or the dealer. Does it happen often? Almost never.
 
Re: relinquish rights?

Here's a related issue/concern.

Few years back, while I still owned several sub guns, there were two separate instances where police were called to our home (kid at my son's elementary school threatened him,, had a gun in his backpack, then we had a false alarm with our ADT system) and BOTH times there were TWO cars that arrived, one pulled up in front of the house one just around the corner, visible from the house.

Issues resolved, paperwork done, I watched the cars drive off.

I mentioned this to a state trooper I knew and he said "you own machine guns, it shows up on our computer. We always send a backup."

That's ALL? I later had this confirmed by another - county - cop who said it's SOP to do this, just in case.

Fucking insane.

Here's the thing. Since selling the guns (more than doubling investment), we have had one false alarm and another visit from the police, and only one car showed up.


I still own suppressors, apparently those don't count.

Hearsay, BS? Just weird coincidence? You judge. Typically paranoid police activity, IMHO.

[another totally weird, not totally unexpected thing, I stopped by MSA for fingerprints once AFTER I'd sold the guns to make sure it was noted in the registry that they were sold so the state would stop sending me the annual reporting forms - and not come busting into my home at 3 AM - and the trooper looking in his computer said there were no machine guns listed, but they were showing 59 other guns and he started reading off a list that pretty much matched the guns I'd bought locally - not on my C&R FFL. I told him I thought there was federal law that prevented police agencies from keeping this data and he said yes, federally, but every time a form 77R goes in to the MD State Police for review they enter the information in their database.]
 
Re: relinquish rights?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BWE Firearms</div><div class="ubbcode-body">ATF has the right to come to the address on the Form 4 or call you and ask to see the item listed on the form and that is it. They must have a search warrant to search your home.

Have ATF agents showed up at peoples houses to see their NFA item? Yes usually because of a paperwork mistake on the part of the ATF registry, manufacturer or the dealer. Does it happen often? Almost never. </div></div>
They call for an inspection, make an appointment at your local ATF office. Been there,done that.
 
Re: relinquish rights?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Tom Olson</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BWE Firearms</div><div class="ubbcode-body">ATF has the right to come to the address on the Form 4 or call you and ask to see the item listed on the form and that is it. They must have a search warrant to search your home.

Have ATF agents showed up at peoples houses to see their NFA item? Yes usually because of a paperwork mistake on the part of the ATF registry, manufacturer or the dealer. Does it happen often? Almost never. </div></div>
They call for an inspection, make an appointment at your local ATF office. Been there,done that. </div></div>

What are you talking about?

They call to inspect you if your an FFL holder. Not a form 4 owner.... They can knock on your door and say we need to see said item in person with approved form 4. Once you show them, they leave. Will it happen? Probably not, they have bigger fish to fry.
 
Re: relinquish rights?

I beg to differ. The ATF has no RIGHT to call the registered owner and ask to see anything. That one may do so means nothing. You have no obligation to ATF to show them anything or respond in any way to a phone call or even if they do in fact show up at your door.

If your firearm is "discovered", lets say you are at your range shooting it, and an ATF agent asks, you are required to provide proof of registration, that is a copy of your Form 4/5. That is the limit of your obligation to ATF.

Now, as far as local LE goes, that is suject to your local laws. If MD has a state registration, then they know you have whatever you have registered. Other states, like AZ, have no idea what you own and cannot even find out without a cort order/warrant, as NFA records are privileged tax information. For example, there are a number of registered MG's in CA. CA currently requires a state issued permit, which takes quite some doing to get (I know, I was a permit holder while a resident there). Many of those guns are held by people who do not have the permit, being registered before it was required. ATF is prohibited from informing CA LE about the registered owners. In point of fact, I transferred an MG81 out of an individuals estate in CA, since ATF cannot even ask about the local permit there was no problem at all.

If an agent from ATF does in fact "show up" at an non-FFL holders premises, you should be calling your lawyer and asking for the warrant. No warrant? Be cordial of course, but decline any/all requests. Contact legal counsel, someone is on a fishing expedition and you want out of the net, pronto.
 
Re: relinquish rights?

As some have mentioned, the "you must give them access to your NFA items" fear is actually a distortion of truth regarding FFL holders. FFL holders are periodically subjected to on-site inspections for the purposes of ensuring log books are being properly kept and items are properly stored. The audit can be a complete surprise with agents just showing up. In fact, around here that is how it normally happens. However, they can only show up during your published normal business hours. When you apply for an FFL you must list specific operating hours. Thus, they cannot just show up at 02:00 banging on the door if you are a 09:00 - 17:00 shop. If your license address is your home, that is where they will show up.

This inspection procedure does NOT apply to non-FFL holders who own NFA items on a Form 4 or 5. This inspection procedure only applies to FFL holders.

Now, regarding other things mentioned in this thread. The Form 4/5 is a tax document. As such, you are NOT compelled to show anyone those forms. If a law enforcement officer asks that you prove your suppressor is legally owned, you can tell him to pound sand. IMHO, that isn't very smart. I would prefer showing them the document and explain it to them if they are unfamiliar with NFA ownership. But there is nothing forcing you to show them any transfer forms.

The ATF registry is not open or readily accessible to just any law enforcement agency. While LE departments can request information, there is no direct open access. Again, this is tax information protected specifically by tax laws. This applies to all NFA items.

To the OP, don't worry about Form 4s. You give up no rights by owning NFA items.

Mark
 
Re: relinquish rights?

Thank gawd I left good-ole Ft. Meade Maryland 30 years ago and sunny So-CAL 3 years ago for the free state of Hy-Do-Hoe.

Here with a Concealed Carry Permit the FFL's don't even call in multiple long gun or single handgun purchases and the paperwork stays with the retailer.

Sheese, I'm pretty sure you could buy used guns out of the classified's in Maryland 30 years ago. What's happened there?
 
Re: relinquish rights?

That's not true. Bookhound's answer is the substance behind the old wives tale, just like the $200 NFA stamp is the substance behind the "suppressors are illegal" rumors in most un-educated gun owners.
 
Re: relinquish rights?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BookHound</div><div class="ubbcode-body">As some have mentioned, the "you must give them access to your NFA items" fear is actually a distortion of truth regarding FFL holders. FFL holders are periodically subjected to on-site inspections for the purposes of ensuring log books are being properly kept and items are properly stored. The audit can be a complete surprise with agents just showing up. In fact, around here that is how it normally happens. However, they can only show up during your published normal business hours. When you apply for an FFL you must list specific operating hours. Thus, they cannot just show up at 02:00 banging on the door if you are a 09:00 - 17:00 shop. If your license address is your home, that is where they will show up.

This inspection procedure does NOT apply to non-FFL holders who own NFA items on a Form 4 or 5. This inspection procedure only applies to FFL holders.

Now, regarding other things mentioned in this thread. The Form 4/5 is a tax document. As such, you are NOT compelled to show anyone those forms. If a law enforcement officer asks that you prove your suppressor is legally owned, you can tell him to pound sand. IMHO, that isn't very smart. I would prefer showing them the document and explain it to them if they are unfamiliar with NFA ownership. But there is nothing forcing you to show them any transfer forms.

The ATF registry is not open or readily accessible to just any law enforcement agency. While LE departments can request information, there is no direct open access. Again, this is tax information protected specifically by tax laws. This applies to all NFA items.

To the OP, don't worry about Form 4s. You give up no rights by owning NFA items.

Mark </div></div>

There are a lot of holes in that story Bookhound.....

As an ATF/NFA controlled item, a field agent or any agent of the state or fed government can request to see your forms of ownership. You tell them to go pound sand is about as smart as punching them in the nose. They can seize the item in question and await further instructions. Read the laws....
 
Re: relinquish rights?

They can also kick down the door of any house on the street if they have exigent circumstances. That doesn't make it legal.

The ATF is the governing body with regard to sound suppressors. Local law enforcement is not a part of the regulation of these items.

Obviously I also agree in that a negative response to local law enforcement will probably result in an unlawful seizure pursuant to proof of legal ownership. That doesn't make that combination of things "right".
 
Re: relinquish rights?

Actually local law can affect wether or not you can get a class 3 item. They simply dont sign off or your state outlaws them all together.
 
Re: relinquish rights?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: KYS338</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Actually local law can affect wether or not you can get a class 3 item. They simply dont sign off or your state outlaws them all together. </div></div>

There are 3 types of transfers:
Corporate,
Trust,
Individual.

Only the individual route requires a signature of the CLEO.

The state government decides what is legal in the state, and they typically represent constituents (the public).
 
Re: relinquish rights?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: KYS338</div><div class="ubbcode-body">You are preaching to the choir...... </div></div>

I was just trying to imply that not signing is kind of dumb move on the part of the LEO's (when it occurs) as it just reduces voluntary ownership reporting by NFA owners who would otherwise have used the individual transfer.

Apparently that information must have mattered to some of them, or the law wouldn't have been structured to give it to them.

 
Re: relinquish rights?

I don't think that state officials should have anything to do with a federally controlled item. They will do away with LEO signatures soon enough.
 
Re: relinquish rights?

Pray tell,...
Please tell me how the ATF/BATF-E acquires the info for S/N an address on a individual out of the blue, w/o a warrant to recover such Tax info from NFA?
Has the law been bypassed/changed if yes, when, an please point me to said case law?
AFAIK the only folks who know you have such, are those involved in the allowing/discovery, those you tell, and NFA.
Local BATF-E can get such only if they are about to kick down a door, or you give cause for NFA to warrant a compliance check. Which by the way, is a very, very, rare thing.

An Interested party.
 
Re: relinquish rights?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: KYS338</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I don't think that state officials should have anything to do with a federally controlled item. They will do away with LEO signatures soon enough. </div></div>

It was my understanding that they already did away with the signature in an effort to reduce the volume of corporate and trust transfers that apparently are a time burden in processing. Apparently that decision just hasn't been brought into effect yet.

What they didn't do away with was the local law enforcement reporting of ownership of individual transfers.

I feel that is an Achilles heel that makes the removal of the signature somewhat pointless, as people concerned with maximum privacy and freedom will still have substantial reasons to use a trust or corporate transfer.

No one said the government was smart- or a good problem solver however.

I'm pretty sure you could put a private company in charge of the NFA and solve in a matter of 6 months, problems that the ATF has failed to solve in 14 years.
 
Re: relinquish rights?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Gunfighter14e2</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Pray tell,...
Please tell me how the ATF/BATF-E acquires the info for S/N an address on a individual out of the blue, w/o a warrant to recover such Tax info from NFA?
Has the law been bypassed/changed if yes, when, an please point me to said case law?
AFAIK the only folks who know you have such, are those involved in the allowing/discovery, those you tell, and NFA.
Local BATF-E can get such only if they are about to kick down a door, or you give cause for NFA to warrant a compliance check. Which by the way, is a very, very, rare thing.

An Interested party.
</div></div>

The NFA/ATF have your records on file as to where those items are located and who registered them. That database is open to any federal agent and can be requested by state level LEO. They have to have probable cause as to why they need it, but trust me more then one person knows you have a class 3 item.....
 
Re: relinquish rights?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Griffin Armament</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: KYS338</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I don't think that state officials should have anything to do with a federally controlled item. They will do away with LEO signatures soon enough. </div></div>

It was my understanding that they already did away with the signature in an effort to reduce the volume of corporate and trust transfers that apparently are a time burden in processing. Apparently that decision just hasn't been brought into effect yet.

What they didn't do away with was the local law enforcement reporting of ownership of individual transfers.

I feel that is an Achilles heel that makes the removal of the signature somewhat pointless, as people concerned with maximum privacy and freedom will still have substantial reasons to use a trust or corporate transfer.

No one said the government was smart- or a good problem solver however.

I'm pretty sure you could put a private company in charge of the NFA and solve in a matter of 6 months, problems that the ATF has failed to solve in 14 years. </div></div>

Come July they will have to answer for why they are so slow and lacking on the approval times. They will have their day in front of congress....
 
Re: relinquish rights?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: KYS338</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Come July they will have to answer for why they are so slow and lacking on the approval times. They will have their day in front of congress.... </div></div>

I've been living under a rock...somebody call a hearing or something?
 
Re: relinquish rights?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: KYS338</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

The NFA/ATF have your records on file as to where those items are located and who registered them. That database is open to any federal agent and can be requested by state level LEO. They have to have probable cause as to why they need it, but trust me more then one person knows you have a class 3 item..... </div></div>

Case law number, an date please, where any federal or state agent is allowed to extract that info, w/o a court order. I must have been sleeping under a rock or something for that to sneak past.
 
Re: relinquish rights?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BoilerUP</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: KYS338</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Come July they will have to answer for why they are so slow and lacking on the approval times. They will have their day in front of congress.... </div></div>

I've been living under a rock...somebody call a hearing or something? </div></div>

I personally visited my congressman's office 3 times. Congressman Sensenbrenner sits on the House Committee for the Judiciary, which is meeting with the ATF in June or July.

The ATF wrote this (I highlited areas, and wrote a note on the response letter):
564314_10150905824104569_172008254568_12741498_1015681751_n.jpg

555885_10150905824174569_172008254568_12741499_1424367036_n.jpg


Sensenbrenner's office wrote the following regarding the ATF response:
554049_10150905824284569_172008254568_12741500_1505887517_n.jpg



So I can only hope that at least now my concerns will be raised, and at least the people on the comittee will understand how badly the ATF's "inability to grow with my industry" is effecting daily business for my industry.