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Gender-norming Ranger School.

hankpac

Sergeant
Full Member
Minuteman
  • Dec 4, 2006
    1,147
    3,283
    Texas
    www.tigerforcerecon.com
    Anyone seen this yet?

    5 MAY/12

    It was clear that nobody's opinion was being solicited. The message came from the Chief of Staff of the Army, and the order seems to have come from echelons above him: Ranger School will admit women within a few months. And the women will pass, whatever it takes.

    Female officers have complained that the lack of the school credential disadvantages them for promotions and commands, and in an election year their complaints have found champions among the political appointees in the Office of the Secretary of Defense. In a Department whose highest priority is the Secretary's million-dollar Gulfstream commute, and that has lost interest in two ongoing wars and a dozen other flashpoints where soldiers risk their lives daily, a stroke of a pen can upend a 60-year-old course that embodies a tradition with roots in the 18th Century.

    And it just did.

    The Ranger Training Brigade has been told to roll the welcome mat and the first class could be 03/13 but will definitely be 05/13 at the latest. Each class in the remainder of FY 13 will receive five to eight women, and the treatment, mentoring, nurturing and ultimate success of those female candidates will be intensively managed by the Chief of Staff and the Sergeant Major of the Army, not to mention civilian appointees. The male candidates in the same courses are not of interest to the command, as long as they don't interfere with or criticize the women. Even the timing of the feminized classes was established for political reasons: to ensure that a fait accompli of female Ranger attendees, if not graduates is presented to the incoming SecDef and Secretary of the Army if, as the current leaders think likely, their patron is defeated in November. They did not want to put women in class 1/13, which starts in October, to prevent Congress from intervening before the elections, but 2/13 is an outside possibility.

    Current Ranger graduates, Ranger veterans, and the Ranger units and Ranger training establishment were never consulted about the decision. Officers who argued against it in Pentagon meetings have already been dismissed or shunted into career-ending punishment assignments.

    The RTB has not been directed that all female candidates must pass regardless of performance, and Ranger Instructors will retain a limited ability to dismiss an individual underperforming woman from the course, as long as "enough" women remain to please the higher-ups. But they will have to justify every dismissal to the highest levels of command, who have made their intention clear. Regardless of performance, the majority of women attendees must pass -- at least as high a graduating percentage as the men in the same class. For the first time in Ranger history, graduation will be guaranteed -- for some.

    Currently, the RTB closely monitors candidate performance at the school, and notes the following statistical details about course failures/dropouts:

    60% of all Ranger School failures occur in the first 3 days (“RAP Week”): RPFT, Land Nav, Footmarch, CWSA.
    30% of all Ranger School failures occur due to Personal Reasons: Admin, Lack of Motivation, Special Circumstances.
    10% of all Ranger School failures occur due to Academics: Patrols, Peers, Serious Observation Report, Medical Issues.
    Only 2.2% of all Ranger School failures are due to Patrols (Academic).
    Only 5% of all Ranger School failures are due to Patrols, Patrols/Peers, Patrols/Peers/Spots (Academic).
    50.13% Overall Graduation Rate last 6 years (FY 06-FY 11) 3
    37.2% Ranger Graduates Recycle at least 1x Phase of Ranger School
    75% of those who complete RAP week will eventually pass the Darby Phase and move on to the Mountain Phase. Darby Recycle Rate is approximately 15%.
    94% of those who start the Mountain Phase will eventually pass and move on to the Florida Phase. Mountain Recycle Rate is approximately 18%.
    98% of those who start Florida Phase will eventually pass and graduate Ranger School. Florida Recycle Rate is approximately 18%.
    A sergeant-major's welcome letter notes the following:
    The three events that cause most students to recycle or fail Ranger School are the Ranger Physical Fitness Test (49x Push-ups, 59x Sit-ups, 5-mile run in under 40x minutes, and 6x Pull-ups) land navigation, and foot march. Success in those events significantly increases your chance of graduating.
    That sergeant major, Dennis L. Smith, just retired (in the nick of time). The standards he outlines here are the same standards that have been in effect for decades, but they're about to change.

    The instructors and cadre have been advised that any public statement is a career ender, and those that have spoken to WeaponsMan.com have done so at considerable personal career risk. Their input wasn't sought beforehand, and it sure as hell isn't wanted now.

    If physical fitness standards are sex-normed for the women, as Army standards overall are, and women are carefully preselected (trained up in land nav, only strong swimmers) then they can get past that initial 60% drop and have a decent chance of passing. Right now, the plan is for women officers only, and for them to have as much as a two month train-up prior to the course. If the women beat the 50% attrition rate of men, expect a publicity blitz. Some attrition means the initial 5 to 8 in the first class will be winnowed down to a publicity-friendly 3 or 4 junior-officer graduates, a number of whom are likely to be "legacies" of military families and already fast-tracked for promotion.

    The question is, is the purpose of Ranger School to prepare leaders for combat or to provide careerist officers with a shiny ticket-punch? The Chief of Staff has answered the question, and his answer conforms to what appears to be his overall policy: get the Army firmly on a peacetime bureaucratic footing, and banish the unpleasant lessons of combat. It's still unclear whether training evolutions that women would have difficulty with will be dropped or re-normed for all students or just for the women. The introduction of women to Airborne School in the 1970s resulted in a massive easing of the challenge to all troopers, with low levels of attrition coming from arbitrary mind-games replacing high levels of attrition from physical failure. But that could be done without consequence, because the main point of airborne school was simply learning to parachute, something that's possible for any healthy person.

    In Ranger School, one possibility is sex-norming various standards, to prevent the credibility damage that the feminized jump school suffered. The command-preferred approach is to lower standards across the board now, before the classes containing the women. allowing the initial class of women to claim they met the same standards as the men. While those decisions haven't all been taken yet, they need to be made within days, because planning for next year's classes is already well underway.

    Filed under: Lord Love a Duck, SF History and LoreLeave a comment
     
    Re: Gender-norming Ranger School.

    and I thought it was bad the first time I saw some NG clerk wearing a black beret like it was a chef's hat... the first split tail I see w/ a tab, better be fucking hot
     
    Re: Gender-norming Ranger School.

    Wondering if peer evaluation will have to be sexually segragated?
     
    Re: Gender-norming Ranger School.

    Here's my take on it. If they can hang, with out the standards being lowered then sure. But the way it sounds is the standards are going to be lowered. Thats not good. Ranger school should not be just a stepping stone for promotion it is supposed to make you a better warrior so you can kill the enemy that much better. F**K....
     
    Re: Gender-norming Ranger School.

    If English assigned gender to words, like the Romance languages, Ranger would not be female.

    Just sayin'.
     
    Re: Gender-norming Ranger School.

    ok my brain is working better now. After reading this I was reminded of this qoute;

    <span style="font-weight: bold">About the time our original 13 states adopted their new constitution, in
    1787, Alexander Tyler, a Scottish history professor at the University of
    Edinburgh, had this to say about the fall of the Athenian Republic some
    2000 years prior:

    "A democracy is always temporary in nature; it simply cannot exist as a
    permanent form of government. A democracy will continue to exist up until the time that voters discover they can vote themselves generous gifts from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates who promise the most benefits from the public treasury, with the result that every democracy will finally collapse due to loose fiscal policy, which is always followed by a dictatorship."
    "The average age of the worlds greatest civilizations from the beginning of history, has been about 200 years. During those 200 years, these nations always progressed through the following sequence:

    1. From bondage to spiritual faith;
    2. From spiritual faith to great courage;
    3. From courage to liberty;
    4. From liberty to abundance;
    5. From abundance to complacency;
    6. From complacency to apathy;
    7. From apathy to dependence;
    8. From dependence back into bondage "</span>

    I'd say we are at #7 as a nation right now. This type of gender-norming falls right into this quote. The police department where I work is also having the governmental problem with gender-norming, wtf. Now females only have to jump a 4' fence not a 6' fence to save their partner or catch criminals. Not to mention males are required to run faster than females so now the females wont even be able to keep up or jump fences and do the work that they get paid for.

    Yup #7 because its government enforced. I just never thought it would get all the way to the SF guys.
     
    Re: Gender-norming Ranger School.

    I'm so f#@king pissed I can't even think straight.... This is the kind of back asswards political correct nonsense that will be our down fall.
     
    Re: Gender-norming Ranger School.

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I'd say we are at #7 as a nation right now.</div></div>

    And closing in fast on number eight.

    The military has turned into a social experiment, but it really doesn't matter. We no longer have the leadership needed to engage in and win a conflict anywhere close to WWII scale.

    I sympathize with you guys still active, 'cause I don't see it getting any better.
     
    Re: Gender-norming Ranger School.

    Makes me seriously consider not reupping or going Warrant next year when my current enlistment and my 2 year med hold for OCS/ Warrant school ends. Hell, I'm not even a Ranger and I find this nonsense upsetting.
     
    Re: Gender-norming Ranger School.

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: hankpac</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Anyone seen this yet?

    5 MAY/12

    It was clear that nobody's opinion was being solicited. The message came from the Chief of Staff of the Army, and the order seems to have come from echelons above him: Ranger School will admit women within a few months. And the women will pass, whatever it takes.

    Female officers have complained that the lack of the school credential disadvantages them for promotions and commands, and in an election year their complaints have found champions among the political appointees in the Office of the Secretary of Defense. In a Department whose highest priority is the Secretary's million-dollar Gulfstream commute, and that has lost interest in two ongoing wars and a dozen other flashpoints where soldiers risk their lives daily, a stroke of a pen can upend a 60-year-old course that embodies a tradition with roots in the 18th Century.

    And it just did.

    The Ranger Training Brigade has been told to roll the welcome mat and the first class could be 03/13 but will definitely be 05/13 at the latest. Each class in the remainder of FY 13 will receive five to eight women, and the treatment, mentoring, nurturing and ultimate success of those female candidates will be intensively managed by the Chief of Staff and the Sergeant Major of the Army, not to mention civilian appointees. The male candidates in the same courses are not of interest to the command, as long as they don't interfere with or criticize the women. Even the timing of the feminized classes was established for political reasons: to ensure that a fait accompli of female Ranger attendees, if not graduates is presented to the incoming SecDef and Secretary of the Army if, as the current leaders think likely, their patron is defeated in November. They did not want to put women in class 1/13, which starts in October, to prevent Congress from intervening before the elections, but 2/13 is an outside possibility.

    Current Ranger graduates, Ranger veterans, and the Ranger units and Ranger training establishment were never consulted about the decision. Officers who argued against it in Pentagon meetings have already been dismissed or shunted into career-ending punishment assignments.

    The RTB has not been directed that all female candidates must pass regardless of performance, and Ranger Instructors will retain a limited ability to dismiss an individual underperforming woman from the course, as long as "enough" women remain to please the higher-ups. But they will have to justify every dismissal to the highest levels of command, who have made their intention clear. Regardless of performance, the majority of women attendees must pass -- at least as high a graduating percentage as the men in the same class. For the first time in Ranger history, graduation will be guaranteed -- for some.

    Currently, the RTB closely monitors candidate performance at the school, and notes the following statistical details about course failures/dropouts:

    60% of all Ranger School failures occur in the first 3 days (“RAP Week”): RPFT, Land Nav, Footmarch, CWSA.
    30% of all Ranger School failures occur due to Personal Reasons: Admin, Lack of Motivation, Special Circumstances.
    10% of all Ranger School failures occur due to Academics: Patrols, Peers, Serious Observation Report, Medical Issues.
    Only 2.2% of all Ranger School failures are due to Patrols (Academic).
    Only 5% of all Ranger School failures are due to Patrols, Patrols/Peers, Patrols/Peers/Spots (Academic).
    50.13% Overall Graduation Rate last 6 years (FY 06-FY 11) 3
    37.2% Ranger Graduates Recycle at least 1x Phase of Ranger School
    75% of those who complete RAP week will eventually pass the Darby Phase and move on to the Mountain Phase. Darby Recycle Rate is approximately 15%.
    94% of those who start the Mountain Phase will eventually pass and move on to the Florida Phase. Mountain Recycle Rate is approximately 18%.
    98% of those who start Florida Phase will eventually pass and graduate Ranger School. Florida Recycle Rate is approximately 18%.
    A sergeant-major's welcome letter notes the following:
    The three events that cause most students to recycle or fail Ranger School are the Ranger Physical Fitness Test (49x Push-ups, 59x Sit-ups, 5-mile run in under 40x minutes, and 6x Pull-ups) land navigation, and foot march. Success in those events significantly increases your chance of graduating.
    That sergeant major, Dennis L. Smith, just retired (in the nick of time). The standards he outlines here are the same standards that have been in effect for decades, but they're about to change.

    The instructors and cadre have been advised that any public statement is a career ender, and those that have spoken to WeaponsMan.com have done so at considerable personal career risk. Their input wasn't sought beforehand, and it sure as hell isn't wanted now.

    If physical fitness standards are sex-normed for the women, as Army standards overall are, and women are carefully preselected (trained up in land nav, only strong swimmers) then they can get past that initial 60% drop and have a decent chance of passing. Right now, the plan is for women officers only, and for them to have as much as a two month train-up prior to the course. If the women beat the 50% attrition rate of men, expect a publicity blitz. Some attrition means the initial 5 to 8 in the first class will be winnowed down to a publicity-friendly 3 or 4 junior-officer graduates, a number of whom are likely to be "legacies" of military families and already fast-tracked for promotion.

    The question is, is the purpose of Ranger School to prepare leaders for combat or to provide careerist officers with a shiny ticket-punch? The Chief of Staff has answered the question, and his answer conforms to what appears to be his overall policy: get the Army firmly on a peacetime bureaucratic footing, and banish the unpleasant lessons of combat. It's still unclear whether training evolutions that women would have difficulty with will be dropped or re-normed for all students or just for the women. The introduction of women to Airborne School in the 1970s resulted in a massive easing of the challenge to all troopers, with low levels of attrition coming from arbitrary mind-games replacing high levels of attrition from physical failure. But that could be done without consequence, because the main point of airborne school was simply learning to parachute, something that's possible for any healthy person.

    In Ranger School, one possibility is sex-norming various standards, to prevent the credibility damage that the feminized jump school suffered. The command-preferred approach is to lower standards across the board now, before the classes containing the women. allowing the initial class of women to claim they met the same standards as the men. While those decisions haven't all been taken yet, they need to be made within days, because planning for next year's classes is already well underway.

    Filed under: Lord Love a Duck, SF History and LoreLeave a comment
    </div></div>

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fy--whDNNKk&feature=youtube_gdata_player

    If this doesn't work just Google General Barrow testimony.

    This man is a former Commandant of the Marine Corps and had the balls to say what every true warrior was thinking. I wonder what makes what he says less true today than in 1991.
     
    Re: Gender-norming Ranger School.

    Those few who spoke up apparently have been relieved or transferred, or retired.
    I think the point is being made by the highest command authority that American GI lives do not matter, and this is just the sort of thing to demoralize the team, and place troops at risk.
     
    Re: Gender-norming Ranger School.

    As sad as this statement is apparently true, it seems that "appearances matter more than effectiveness."

    This should never be. But then again, the same can be said for the 'designator'.



    Read carefully between THAT line....
     
    Re: Gender-norming Ranger School.

    Again wtf.
    <object width="425" height="350"> <param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/3tPs1Fn8xeY"></param> <param name="wmode" value="transparent"></param> <embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/3tPs1Fn8xeY" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" wmode="transparent" width="425" height="350"> </embed></object>
     
    Re: Gender-norming Ranger School.

    DAMN, i might have enjoyed it a bit more with some girls in there to look at!!
     
    Re: Gender-norming Ranger School.

    I'm gonna go a bit further, I don't think any one should be allowed to go to Ranger School unless you're going to a Ranger Bat.

    The ideal of going to a school just for the patch or tab just ruins the ideal in my opinion.

    That is the reason I never went, I got orders twice but I told them to pound sand, send me to Perry. I was in the NG, and we had no Ranger units, nor did we plan on getting any.

    I was told it would enhance my career. WTF, my career was shot the day I got involved in marksmanship. (Notice I retired as a captain).

    I've seen a lot of people that would only put in for schools that had Patches or Badges, WTF.

    I was an asshole as a CO, I really restricted schools that had any type of badge or patch. If it didn't benifit the unit you didn't go.

    Besides I always thought that "Rangers" were combat arms or consisted of combat arms MOS or support like medics and engineers.

    As to women in combat..... I don't know what its like today. I only remember the jungles, and jungle rot. I remember tossing your undies because they iritated jungle rot. I remember rip stock nylon that wasn't. I remember grunts that had nothing that resembled crotches in their britches. It was all hanging out.

    Grunts got jungle fatigues and wore them until they litterly fell off, every thing was hanging out. I remember shedding what you had to take a shower in the rain, hoping to get the soak off before it stopped.

    Patches....Badges...........we dont need no stinking badges (or patches).

    I wonder how much of this crap we would have if they didn't have badges, tabs, or patches for any of the schools.

    Sorry, I respect women too much for that.
     
    Re: Gender-norming Ranger School.

    While I understand where you are coming from. Having NCOs with Ranger tabs in infantry units is a good thing to do. They lead the enlisted soldiers and are able to pass knowledge onto these soldiers. Just because you have a Ranger tab doesn't make you a Ranger. Rangers are held to a higher standard than regular infantry units on a daily basis.


    To allow women into Ranger school is not right.
     
    Re: Gender-norming Ranger School.

    Ok...I think we are SERIOUSLY in need of some basic information here. This Ranger School. NOT 1/75th Ranger Regiment.
    The Batts aren't going to instantly have women on the front lines because of this.
    This really is a "Shiny bauble" to pin on the uniform. It shouldn't be, I agree, but that's what it is. I worked with a Hungarian officer that had an American Ranger Tab because he went to Ranger school and earned it. It is an advanced, light infantry school. That's it. It doesn't make you a "scrolled" Ranger.
    If they get some women that can meet the standards, more power to them! If they drop the standards so they can be met, that is a serious issue.
    I've also worked with foreign combat units, in the field, that allow women in their infantry units. Didn't create any issues guys. They did their part. Hell a few of them were even nice to look at! I didn't hear any of their soldiers bitching about them being there either.
    This is really a non-issue.
     
    Re: Gender-norming Ranger School.

    They will have to lower the standards, woman will not pass at the male standards right now.

    And if somehow they manage to hang around, they will be peered out.
     
    Re: Gender-norming Ranger School.

    this is the further pussification of the United States, lowering standards to become more politically correct.
     
    Re: Gender-norming Ranger School.

    I read a few reports on this and they plan to lower the standards 1-2 classes before females hit so they can't blame it on lower stances.

    Watch GI Jane - that's EXACTLY what's happening here.

    Women on subs, women in the Rangers...fine if the standards stay the same but when you make exceptions just so one gender can get in -


    We are doomed.

    Rome fell, in part, because they delegated the Navy to the civilians and they became PC.
    (Of course watching teh show on Nixon's micromanagement of air raids in North Vietnam made me puke too).
     
    Re: Gender-norming Ranger School.

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: rero360</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Hell, I'm not even a Ranger and I find this nonsense upsetting. </div></div>

    ^^^+100

    Just what the F**K do they think that this is going to accomplish???

    This kind of garbage will continue to get worse and even more far flung if the politicians are allowed to continue to thrust their hands into military matters.


    Senario:

    Soldier - "Ma'am, what do we do?!?!? The Commander is dead and the platoon is taking heavy fire with almost no support. You went through Ranger School, what do we do?!?!?"

    The "Ma'am" - "Your flanking movement didn't work?? That's weird, it worked while I was leading my squad while in Ranger School. It's weird, though; all the guys who tried that movement in Ranger School were given couselings or were recycled. Strange..."