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Suppressors Who can ask for papers?

Re: Who can ask for papers?

I, for the record, have nothing against police. I have never been hassled nor do I worry about it. My range is frequently rented out to LE, and I have been there shooting SBR's and suppressor and have never been hassled. I now have a transferable machine gun and I imagine things are going to start to get interesting with LE because machine guns are so much more rare and the noise is much more likely to prompt a call from locals.
 
Re: Who can ask for papers?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lowlight</div><div class="ubbcode-body">the problem is, you can't cite an issue, but you have stated you take issue with LE in this regard, despite the lack of evidence of an actual issue.

Read what YOU wrote, the issue is not owning a suppressor, traveling with a suppressor, or anything suppressor related, it's with LE... you said so...

..

If the Tin Foil Hat fits, you should be comfortable wearing it.

The reason I am telling you, and others you're off base, is because you can't cite any instances, and I have a rather large collection of the offending products, I would venture to say more than all of you combined, and I have traveled with said items all over the country. So unless you can point me to the "issue" I continue to see it as one with you and others and the dislike for LE and not about Suppressor. </div></div>

please. this whole argument started because a bunch of LEs on this thread started posturing and saying that they'd be happy to arrest Lofty.

if you don't think that that attitude, whether in respect to suppressors, or anything else, is a problem, that's not an issue - you're obviously entitled to your opinion without being ridiculed...but if someone else thinks it is, is it acceptable to you to ridicule them and call them names?


<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Just because you all keep repeating the word, Constitution, doesn't mean you understand it. </div></div>

Oh really? What part of the right to bear arms am i not understanding? Did I miss something? Does it say the right to bear arms as long as I consent to get fucked with by every LEO that happens to wander by?

this isn't even about that anyways. I spoke up because Lofty had a valid point and you started with the name calling.
 
Re: Who can ask for papers?

Like I said, if the Tin Foil Hat fits, be comfortable wearing it.

You clearly dont' understand any of it, walk down someone else's street with a rifle on your shoulder, would you not expect them to call the police ? Right to bear doesnt' mean right to do whatever you want with it. Walk into a private business with your pistol on your belt. The business is in the US, you have a right to bear arms, would you not expect them to call the police or ask you to leave ?

It's good to be hard, hard to be smart... and clearly you guys are throwing smart out of the window.

You continued down the cop hating path, and made it the cornerstone of your argument. That they are not to be trusted when it comes to your rights. We get it, you can't cite any personal experience to back that up, except the crap you read on the internet. But in the context of this debate, nothing.

I mean, come on you did it again,

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Does it say the right to bear arms as long as I consent to get fucked with by every LEO that happens to wander by?</div></div>

You've been fucked with ? The Po Po keeping you down, preventing you from exercising your right, or are you hoping they do so you finally have a legitimate bitch ?

Please been here long enough, read enough from people like you to know...
 
Re: Who can ask for papers?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lowlight</div><div class="ubbcode-body">In fact I joined American Silencer Association which is working with people in Congress,

Have any of you Life, Liberty and the Pursuit of NFA Products done so ?

You're all members and have given to them so they can protect the freedoms of which you speak. In other words, everyone of you have put your money where your mouth is right ? </div></div>

Yup just did a 3 year. With all the bitching I and others do on here about suppressor laws and wait times, makes sense to support a group with a voice louder than individuals.
 
Re: Who can ask for papers?

When I was referring to the fact that this is a privilege to own these types of devices, I was simply trying to emphasize that the "right" to own a firearm (or NFA item) can be taken away.

Example: If you get convicted of a felony, it becomes a federal crime to possess a firearm.

It's a privilege and should be treated as such. That's all I was trying to get at.
 
Re: Who can ask for papers?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lowlight</div><div class="ubbcode-body">In fact I joined American Silencer Association which is working with people in Congress,

Have any of you Life, Liberty and the Pursuit of NFA Products done so ?

You're all members and have given to them so they can protect the freedoms of which you speak. In other words, everyone of you have put your money where your mouth is right ? </div></div>

Good for you Frank, so did I.

I wasnt questioning your support of the firearms community....I think its obvious you do.


I dont think anyone here said all cops are assholes until proven not to be. In fact, just the opposite is true. If a cop leaves me alone while I am going about my law abiding way.....I have no reason to think he is an asshole and I dont.
 
Re: Who can ask for papers?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lowlight</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Like I said, if the Tin Foil Hat fits, be comfortable wearing it.

You clearly dont' understand any of it, walk down someone else's street with a rifle on your shoulder, would you not expect them to call the police ? </div></div>

Yes, I do expect to be able to do that. I walk with my friends and family's rifles down the street frequently and nothing happens to me. Should I be scared of people calling the police? Why should I be?


<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Right to bear doesnt' mean right to do whatever you want with it. Walk into a private business with your pistol on your belt. The business is in the US, you have a right to bear arms, would you not expect them to call the police or ask you to leave ?</div></div>

what are you talking about? you're accusing me of changing the issue, yet for an example of your statement, you make something up? Intellectually dishonest, my friend. I expect you will shortly call me stupid...

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">It's good to be hard, hard to be smart... and clearly you guys are throwing smart out of the window. </div></div>

Yep, there it is.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">You continued down the cop hating path, and made it the cornerstone of your argument. That they are not to be trusted when it comes to your rights. We get it, you can't cite any personal experience to back that up, except the crap you read on the internet. But in the context of this debate, nothing.</div></div>

I repeat. Lofty made an argument. LE on this thread told him they'd be happy to arrest him for doing so, a common LE posturing technique. I've seen them do this for just about every infraction they know of or have made up, this isn't new, and is only tangentially related to the actual topic. Those particular comments were off-topic to begin with...funny i don't see you chastising CJ for that.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I mean, come on you did it again,

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Does it say the right to bear arms as long as I consent to get fucked with by every LEO that happens to wander by?</div></div>

You've been fucked with ? The Po Po keeping you down, preventing you from exercising your right, or are you hoping they do so you finally have a legitimate bitch ?

Please been here long enough, read enough from people like you to know... </div></div>

As I said, we've all seen them act like that, and as I also said, I didn't get into this argument with you until you started accusing people and calling them names. Yes I have been fucked with. Not in this arena. My legitimate bitch is your treatment of those that may have a legitimate bitch. And you're rude about it, constantly telling people they're stupid, or zombie-apocalypse crap, or don't understand 2A, or whatever. What do you mean, people like me? People that don't think that others should be treated that way, or people that don't think that LE should be able to walk all over people? Some subset of both?
 
Re: Who can ask for papers?

Back in.

I would like to be able to walk into a gun shop and buy a can or sbr and walk out. No tax stamp and no forms.

I would also like to enjoy my toys in at the range without being questioned so long as I am being safe and following the laws.

I don't agree with the NFA and I don't agree with state laws that make them illegal/sort of illegal. That doesn't mean I hate LEO's, I simply hate the laws they are obligated to enforce.

Frank, I think it's great that you are part of the ASA but it's kind of like lobbing for medical pot. Why not fight to decriminalize intead of fighting to allow the gov. to have a hand in the market? That being said, I don't feel pot should be illegal.(whole other discussion)

I don't hate LEO's, I hate jerks. Regular folks can be jerks just the same as LEO's.

Finally, I take issue with the fact that LEO's can do some things that most people frown upon like pulling drivers over for the sake of pulling them over. I don't think that should be legal.
 
Re: Who can ask for papers?

D'uh, you guys have absolutely implied it, in fact it is the cornerstone of your debate .

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I dont think anyone here said all cops are assholes until proven not to be. In fact, just the opposite is true. If a cop leaves me alone while I am going about my law abiding way.....I have no reason to think he is an asshole and I dont.</div></div>

Cause he has proven he's not, but while you and he are there together until one of you leaves, the question is clearly hanging in the air.

<span style="font-style: italic">"if he leaves me alone" ... </span> Give off that vibe and you may not get left alone, especially if you looking to validate your point.

I have asked for examples, and neither of you can provide one, that much is clear, you guys just want to talk about <span style="text-decoration: underline">what if</span>, and you're <span style="font-style: italic">"idea"</span> of your constitutional rights. Often repeating you have the right to do whatever you want with your firearm and nobody can question it. However, because you can't cite a personal issue you've had they (cops) clearly have left you alone.

Nobody is hassling you, nobody is looking to hassle up, however invent some <span style="font-style: italic">"what if"</span> scenario don't surprised if the answer you get is, <span style="font-style: italic">"you;d be hassled"</span>

 
Re: Who can ask for papers?

I have been pulled over what I believed to be no reason, last month with a car load of rifles and suppressors.

Driving up to Mile High during morning Rush hour, I was in the Left lane doing the speed limit, and a line was coming up faster so I moved over. At the exact same time a State Trooper was pulling out after having pulled someone over. Of Course the traffic slowed and the lane next to me backed down. The car in front of me kept slowing from 75 to under 70 and after about 1 mile the Trooper pulled me over. We were doing about 68 in a 75 so I was clueless as I hadn't moved.

Came up, asked for my license and stuff, then told me I was following the car in front too close... really, too close despite the fact he kept slowing, but my answer to him was, "you're absolutely right I was too close" he slowed down and I didn't back off enough. Remember I have a car full of rifles and suppressors...

Walked away, came back with a warning, ... lesson learned be nice. Forget the fact the other side of the highway was bumper to bumper going into Denver, we had rush hour traffic all around and I couldnt' pass, I mean I can give you a dozen justification why I feel it was a bogus reason to pull me over, but still I was smart enough to agree with him and move on down the road.

Same thing,

Don't look for a problem you won't find a problem. Again, I have carried my Class III items all over the country. Zero issues to date... why because I am polite and respectful. I am not looking to exercise my Constitutional Knowledge at the wrong point in time.
 
Re: Who can ask for papers?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Drew_1312</div><div class="ubbcode-body">When I was referring to the fact that this is a privilege to own these types of devices, I was simply trying to emphasize that the "right" to own a firearm (or NFA item) can be taken away.

Example: If you get convicted of a felony, it becomes a federal crime to possess a firearm.

That's all I was trying to get at. </div></div>

If you are convicted of a felony <span style="font-weight: bold">[/b]<span style="font-style: italic">[/i]for which the imprisonment is more than 1 year</span></span>, it becomes a federal crime to possess a firearm.

Don't ask me how I know.

Sorry if that was a threadjack, but I hear that alot, and I had to do some extensive research to figure out if I could legally own firearms.
 
Re: Who can ask for papers?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: hondo1312</div><div class="ubbcode-body">If you are convicted of a felony <span style="font-weight: bold">[/b]<span style="font-style: italic">[/i]for which the imprisonment is more than 1 year</span></span>, it becomes a federal crime to possess a firearm.</div></div><span style="text-decoration: underline">Penalty</span>; not 'imprisonment'. If you are convicted of Murder, but only get probation, you still can't own firearms.

Guys, get a clue: The 4th Amendment is not triggered when an officer asks you for your paperwork, and you have no 2nd Amendment right to own a suppressor.

If you think that God has given you more rights than that, and that whatever rights God gave you are inalienable, then go for it: Believe that in your basement; advocate it in public if you like. But act on it at your own peril.
 
Re: Who can ask for papers?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Graham</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: hondo1312</div><div class="ubbcode-body">If you are convicted of a felony <span style="font-weight: bold">[/b]<span style="font-style: italic">[/i]for which the imprisonment is more than 1 year</span></span>, it becomes a federal crime to possess a firearm.</div></div><span style="text-decoration: underline">Penalty</span>; not 'imprisonment'. If you are convicted of Murder, but get probation, you still can't own firearms.

Guys, get a clue: The 4th Amendment is not triggered when an officer asks you for your paperwork. And you have no 2nd Amendment right to own a suppressor.

If you think that God has given you more rights than that, and that whatever rights God gave you are inalienable, then go for it: Believe that in your basement; advocate it in public if you like. But act on it at your own peril. </div></div>

Ah...penalty. You are correct sir. I couldn't remember it verbatim. Thank you for correcting me.
 
Re: Who can ask for papers?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Graham</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: hondo1312</div><div class="ubbcode-body">If you are convicted of a felony <span style="font-weight: bold">[/b]<span style="font-style: italic">[/i]for which the imprisonment is more than 1 year</span></span>, it becomes a federal crime to possess a firearm.</div></div><span style="text-decoration: underline">Penalty</span>; not 'imprisonment'.

Guys, get a clue: The 4th Amendment is not triggered when an officer asks you for your paperwork. And you have no 2nd Amendment right to own a suppressor.

If you think that God has given you more rights than that, and that whatever rights God gave you are inalienable, then go for it: Believe that in your basement; advocate it in public if you like. But act on it at your own peril. </div></div>

I still don't understand HOW the 4A is not triggered... when an officer DEMANDS paperwork... it specifically states "papers" cannot be "searched" without probable cause...

if I as a civilian possess an item, that can legally be possessed by civilians... where is the probable cause (or reasonable suspicion) that allows my detainment and search... because detaining me and forcing me to produce paperwork is a search
 
Re: Who can ask for papers?

I think the difference is that he said "when an officer asks you".

You turned it into "demands" and "forcing"!

Just my take on it
 
Re: Who can ask for papers?

and I've had LEOs tell me that "civilians" can't own NFA items... others state that you need a license... I've been lucky enough that when I explained the process, even though I could tell they didn't really believe me, they also weren't confident enough to push it... am I afraid that at some point I'll meet the guy that thinks his junk is big enough... yeah

why don't most ask... because they wouldn't even know what the forms looked like anyway...

I'm still getting PMs (from LE and others) asking how I have NFA items without a stamp or LE affiliation
 
Re: Who can ask for papers?

oh yes.. because LE and lawyers are ALWAYS right....

and I simple said I still don't understand it... I'm perfectly willing to have it explained...

instead we get told that we're kooks.. zombie yada yada... stupid

and of course if we disagree w/ YOU too much, we get banned
 
Re: Who can ask for papers?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Force_Multiplier</div><div class="ubbcode-body">If I as a civilian possess an item, that can legally be possessed by civilians... where is the probable cause (or reasonable suspicion) that allows my detainment and search... because detaining me and forcing me to produce paperwork is a search </div></div>The suspicion is not in the paperwork itself. No one is going to force you to produce the papers: That's Casablanca, not America. There are many dententions, without probable cause, that fall short of siezure (arrest). A stop and frisk for weapons is one of them. So is a routine traffic stop.
 
Re: Who can ask for papers?

Finding the off, odd officer who doesn't know doesn't know constitute a conspiracy to separate you from your Class III item. He maybe good at pulling cars over and not so good at anything else.

Oklahoma is deep with stupid, doesn't mean everyone is that way, in state or out.
smile.gif
Heck they still think I got my USMC Creds in a Flea Market there and tell people I am making my service up.
 
Re: Who can ask for papers?

Then why debate me if you are scared, I havent' banned anyone... and clearly you dont' understand the laws, so stupid is as stupid says.

That is always the argument right, if you disagree you'll be banned, forget the fact you are WRONG disagreeing is the issue.
 
Re: Who can ask for papers?

I can walk up to you on the street, while on duty in uniform, and ASK to speak with you for a moment (consensual encounter). If you tell me to go get bent, I can't do a damn thing about it. So long as you've done nothing wrong and I do not have probable cause or reasonable suspicion, you can walk away.
 
Re: Who can ask for papers?

but graham...

it's been stated that if I can't or won't produce those papers, that I'll be arrested...

maybe I'm over analyzing it... but I just don't see the burden being met...

do I know that, in this hypothetical situation, I would in fact be arrested ... I say probably...

but I also say that before I can be successfully prosecuted, the state will have to PROVE beyond a reasonable doubt that I don't have the paperwork...

and I theorize that it wouldn't (at least shouldn't) make it past the initial appearance where the state has to show probable cause to believe that I'm guilty

of course all this assumes a competent attorney on my part and an impartial judge... in fact I'd probably bet a DA that was other than anti gun would never file charges
 
Re: Who can ask for papers?

so if I tell you that I think you're a stupid little shit w/ Napoleon syndrome... you're gonna be a man


because you've damn sure said we're stupid, paranoid, and don't know near as much as the great Lowlight...

I'd also gamble that you rarely shoot on small little ranges where billy bob bubba LEO hangs out in his full tac gear doing mag dumps and tells people how he can do that shit cause he's a cop... yeah, I've seen that first hand...

now let's see if I get to hang around... since I wasn't any more rude than you
 
Re: Who can ask for papers?

If you can't produce the papers you are in violation of possession, at least until you can produce the papers. You can choose to hang on to them and see what the officer does first, or you can just say, here they are.

you either have a Form 3 or SOT that says you can sell or build them, so there are papers. It becomes a personal choice whether you want to address the issue of proof, if you were hypothetically stopped for having it. The choice is simple you produce the required paperwork that says, you can own, build or sell them, or you're in violation of the law, it's not really that gray.

We all have a choice, we can do the right thing in the eyes of society or we can be stubborn and do the right thing in our own eyes which may or may not have consequences, like being arrested.

I choose to wrap my suppressors in my paperwork, or put it in my can case, that way if anyone asks, there it is. If I was shooting at a range and some random LE type came over and asked, I would roll over my shoulder and point to my case and say go take a look. It's a better choice than telling him to call an ATF or go pound sand. At the end of my hypothetical day I go home, you do not.

you can argue you're right all day, that doesn't make it so, and that won't win in court. If you want to play hypothetical games, you can expect to get less than positive answers. hypothetically take your suppressor and not paperwork and fly to CA with it, and see how that works for you. It;s a choice you can make and say you dont' agree with the laws, and that you FEEL you deserve to take your suppressor where ever you like, but CA Law will feel differently about it.

As for the Napoleon part, gee never heard that before... maybe you should try being in charge here for a day and dealing with assholes like you all the time who think they know better, that the rules don't' apply, that they are entitled to free speech, they selling is a right, or any of the other things they tell us day in and day out, see how you would handle dicks like you and the others. Everyday for 10+ years.
 
Re: Who can ask for papers?

the fact is... no LEO or LEO/lawyer has shown where anyone is required to show NFA paperwork to anyone other than an ATF agent or inspector...

they HAVE shown some statutes that say possession of NFA items are illegal unless they are properly registered... once an individual asserts that the item is properly registered w/ the NFA branch in his/her/it (trust, corp, etc) name... then the burden of proof falls on the state to prove it isn't... that IS the letter and spirit of the law...

in fact... all that has been shown is that ATF's website stating that the forms must be available for "ATF" inspection and that it is "suggested" that a copy be carried... but in no way required that a copy be carried...

if anyone can show me a statute stating that a state requires a copy be carried and/or shown to local, county, or state LE.. or show me a case in which someone was successfully prosecuted for not having a stamp/refusing to show it... then that's fine, I'll fully admit I'm wrong (at least in that state)...

until then, this is a realatively fun legal debate... except for some LEOs that state things like "you may beat the rap, but you won't beat the ride", etc, etc

or ANY asshole that comes in saying that anyone who disagrees w/ them, and by extension other people who agree with them, are stupid, kooks, etc...

unless you can refrain from personal attacks (site owner or not), you're at least as big a dipshit as the rest of us
 
Re: Who can ask for papers?

Wow!! This thread has gone way out of control.

I have never been asked for my paperwork and as strange as it may sound to some, actually kinda look forward to being asked. I always like to prove to people that I indeed went through the trouble of doing every little step to make owning and NFA item legal.

Why make trouble when it can be avoiding? I can almost guarantee most of my local LEO have no idea what they would be looking at if I did show them my papers. Either way I'd show them just to prove I am legal and avoid further investigation. I understand some of your arguments, but don't really understand why you'd want to make it an argument to begin with??
 
Re: Who can ask for papers?

Here is Connecticut's state statue that shows possessions and the exception

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> Sec. 53a-211. Possession of a sawed-off shotgun or silencer: Class D felony. (a) A person is guilty of possession of a sawed-off shotgun or a silencer when he owns, controls or possesses any sawed-off shotgun that has a barrel of less than eighteen inches or an overall length of less than twenty-six inches or when he owns, controls or possesses any silencer designed to muffle the noise of a firearm during discharge.

(b) The provisions of this section shall not apply to persons, firms, corporations or museums licensed or otherwise permitted by federal or state law to possess, control or own sawed-off shotguns or silencers.

(c) Possession of a sawed-off shotgun or a silencer is a class D felony.</div></div>
 
Re: Who can ask for papers?

I think it just comes down to some having a chip on their shoulder and others who might use the opportunity to make a new friend, for themselves, and for shooters in general. We all get to choose which path we take.

If we choose the correct path, we often make friends... I was ask,while shooting on my own property, showed the paper work, explained the process, told him about the Class 3 dealer, introduced them and now the LE has a can himself and comes to shoot with me.

I would show my paperwork to anyone that ask about it and try to make a friend for shooters and myself. Most people who do not have expirence in any field are very impressionable the first time they are exposed to something new. This is the time to win them over. Or, make a new anti gunner...

I could have "showed him my A&&" and made an enemy for myself and other shooters and NFA owners.

We do all get to choose....
 
Re: Who can ask for papers?

So clearly just having one is probable cause, and I will caveat it to say, at least in CT, where ownership with the Tax Stamp or SOT is legal.

If you own it, you are violating the law, until you show you are exempt as in part (b), but that is not apparent from just having it, in fact the opposite applies so LE can stop you and be within the law until you show exemption. It's a Felony without the exemption
 
Re: Who can ask for papers?

springer...

I never actually said I'd "want" to make an arguement, and I suggest people carry a copy...

but I also know that shit happens and people forget the copy, hell I do being that I'm so close to the range and unfortunately I'm not in a position where it's practical to have forms wrapped around an item, so I sometimes forget to grab any paperwork... it's never really been a problem. I have had LEO say something along the lines of "what dept you with?" then when I tell them I'm not they say something about, but silencers are only legal for LE/gov, or ask about the class III license. I explain that there isn't an class III license, or that the general public can in fact own NFA items. They generally argue at first, then get really confused looks and drop it... but a couple have pushed enough to make me think they're about to get stupid, often when I actually had paperwork, that didn't even want to see, because they just KNEW it was illegal, but for some reason (I honestly think a lack of confidence on their part)they've never pushed, a few have asked their, presumably more experienced, buddies even.

it's generally fairly civil... occasionally I've gone as far as to say they need to ask someone w/ a clue type stuff... but I can see it someday going to me telling 1 to pound sand, and again, I may very well have paperwork and have tried to educate them...

but nobody has shown me anywhere that I'm required to show anyone except the ATF any paperwork... in fact, I paid a lawyer to advise me and he also doesn't see any requirement, but suggests it... because it generally will be much easier

I just want someone that says I have to show it to local LE show me that in writing... because even w/ the TX statues (which are very similar to OK)... MY lawyer and I just don't see it

but instead of showing me, they show me something else and tell me I'm an idiot, my lawyer is an idiot, and anyone who disagrees w/ them are idiot, kook, anti LEO, anti gov, zombie chasing, basement dwelling rebels....

I thought I MAY learn something, but apparently people can't make have a discussion without attacking everyone...

all I asked for was proof in writing or an explanation that I (me) the common dipshit can understand...

apparently that makes me a kook
 
Re: Who can ask for papers?

I am actually really enjoying this thread! Please don't lock it.

I think it is a really good debate with a lot of good points on both sides, and educational also. Like any debate, the subject matter and nature of debate in general can cause things to get heated. It shouldn't detract from the fact that there is a lot of good information here and based on the amount of views, a very popular thread.
 
Re: Who can ask for papers?

How can you be "exempt" without proof, so by default having the suppressor you are in violation of Sec. 53a-211 (a) unless you can show (b)

that is common sense... possessing it in a state that outlaws possessions is a Felony, until you show exemption of the law.

Oh my god, how is that not crystal clear ?

Part 1 makes it illegal until Part 2 is satisfied

And as far as attacking anyone you are someone to talk, this is you in another thread that has nothing to do with you FM

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Force_Multiplier</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: rescueswimmer</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Well, If he replies then I can say he made it right, if he does not then there is a record of the transaction in public. When things are made public it has a tendency of working its way out faster.



</div></div>

<span style="font-weight: bold">you're an idiot... don't air your dirty laundry in public</span></div></div>

Calling people idiots
 
Re: Who can ask for papers?

Force_Multiplier...

As to the question of "am I required to show my paperwork to anyone other than ATF agent". As a LE officer, let me answer that to the best of my ability.

I DON'T KNOW!!

How's that.
smile.gif
 
Re: Who can ask for papers?

I would absolutely agree with Lowlight though. Indiana has the same type of statute about "Sawed off shotguns". So if I were to see you, in Indiana, with a shotgun that has, say an 11" barrel, I will most definitely ask if you have the proper paperwork to possess such an item. Because possessing an item without the paperwork is a Felony. I would recommend that you show me the paperwork, but ultimately it is your choice. Just know that by choosing not to, there may be consequences, even if they are temporary.
 
Re: Who can ask for papers?

So, because the ATF suggests it, and the State of CT (as an example) outlaws it, unless you can show exemption, the situation goes.

CT State Resident goes to Range with Suppressor:

State Trooper see Suppressor and Felony Possession, ask for paperwork and the Owners, says, "Hey Mr Trooper, the ATF says I am not required to show you anything or even carry my paperwork, so trust me I am okay.. My Lawyer said so. "

(a) Trooper says, "well okay citizen of the United States, if your lawyer said so, enjoy.

(b) Trooper says, Gee I just made a Felony arrest because you haven't satisfied the exemption,

Lawyer says, Oops... that will be $10k, and my bad.
 
Re: Who can ask for papers?

NOT " guilty until proven innocent "

The presumption of innocence, sometimes referred to by the Latin expression Ei incumbit probatio qui dicit, non qui negat (the burden of proof lies with who declares, not who denies), is the principle that one is considered innocent until proven guilty.
 
Re: Who can ask for papers?

I am having a hard time grasping the argument here....

If you own class 3 items and have taken the time to legally obtain them why would you/anyone put that at risk? Am I missing something in this little "debate"?

It is as easy as making copies of your stamp and placing it in your gun case so you can produce proof of legal ownership if asked by LE or anyone for that matter.

Am I over-simplifying this?
 
Re: Who can ask for papers?

ahh see, but I'm following you and your moderator's lead... yes yes, I understand, I don't HAVE to deal w/ people llike me all day everyday.. yada yada...

Lead by example...

and how is it not crystal clear you ask?

ok, I'll say it again... if some civilians are "exempt" from the law that makes it illegal to possess NFA items, then how does an LEO have a reasonable suspicion or probable cause to think a civilian's mere possession is NOT exempt?

if some, are exempt, then a reasonable person would think that anyone who is openly shooting a NFA item at a range is doing so legally

in court, when the officer says "knowing that NFA items are illegal unless properly registered w/ the BATF, I had reasonable suspicion to approach the subject and asked to see his paperwork, which he refused to produce, this gave me probable cause to arrest the subject for violation of state statute XXXX"

then we have to ask "officer, what paperwork did you request" he probably can't answer specifically... "officer, in your XX years as a officer w/ bumfuck PD, how many illegal NFA items have you seized from public firing ranges" and a series of several other questions to establish if he did in fact have REASONABLE suspicion and PROBABLE cause... not the least of which is, what statute or case established under the laws of this state a requirement for this individual to show you a federal document...

all the while the prosecution and defense are arguing their sides

I simply don't see where the burden is met in MY experience and training/education (formal and informal)... if I'm wrong... someone teach me...EFFECTIVELY... Graham probably has the best chance of this, and I'd like to learn

but simply telling me I'm wrong because that's the way it is will not work...

and telling me something is in a statute as illegal w/o telling me how that can ever be won in court isn't good enough...

hell, Oklahoma has a law that says cars must be tethered outside of public buildings... tell me you'll ever make that stick

TX says suppressors are illegal, unless they're registered w/ the BATF, you're LEO or military... somehow that makes it OK to ask random people for NFA paperwork, but not ask LEO and military to "prove" they're legal... I think that's unconstitutional and I'm asking you to prove me wrong... not just tell me I am... especially since suppressors are LEGAL to hunt with
 
Re: Who can ask for papers?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: m14er</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I am having a hard time grasping the argument here....

If you own class 3 items and have taken the time to legally obtain them why would you/anyone put that at risk? Am I missing something in this little "debate"?

It is as easy as making copies of your stamp and placing it in your gun case so you can produce proof of legal ownership if asked by LE or anyone for that matter.

Am I over-simplifying this?</div></div>

you're right, it's generally easy, the easiest/best thing to do...

what people seem to be missing is.. that for whatever reason the OP asked who he was required to show it to.. well, some people believe they're only "required" (right or wrong) to show it to the ATF... but instead of educating those people w/ facts, it's "your ass better show me and mine, or we'll haul you to jail, you may beat the rap, but you won't beat the ride"

then it all went to hell and people get pissed.. on both sides.. name calling begins... people get accused of being anti LE, LE gets accused of being heavy handed, etc,etc...
 
Re: Who can ask for papers?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Drew_1312</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Force_Multiplier...

As to the question of "am I required to show my paperwork to anyone other than ATF agent". As a LE officer, let me answer that to the best of my ability.

I DON'T KNOW!!

How's that.
smile.gif
</div></div>


perfect... and I don't think anyone else does for sure either... because I don't think it's ever been legally established, at least in most states... every one mentioned here anyway
 
Re: Who can ask for papers?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: DFOOSKING</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Side question onto this...since the Fed. Firearms Freedoms Act was passed in many states. What does an officer do when someone posseses an item under said act?

Theoretically they have no papers.</div></div>

I'd guess it wouldn't be an issue w/ local LEO in those states, since the item isn't illegal under state law, but you'd still have an issue w/ a BATF agent
 
Re: Who can ask for papers?

All that and it comes down to choice ...

You can choose to believe the burden of proof on the legality is theirs and not yours, in the end that is your choice. Consequences be damn, but you do have a choice.

The random nature of people being stopped seems to be non-existent, except in rare cases where issues overlap, like BJs traffic stop. I would think if LE was looking to hassle law abiding citizens the airport would be a good place to start, they come to you, but that never happens.

Not to mention if the prosecutor takes you court for failing to produce your paperwork, and does charge you, chances are the arresting officering will be prepped and be able to say, "I asked to see his form 4 or tax stamp showing me exemption" or even just "his BATF Exemption" which is enough to say to the jury you had to prove exemption under the law.

Now I am not a lawyers, but I suspect that (a) comes first in the statute and (b) comes second, so first you fall under (a) and then by producing evidence you satisfy (b) letting you off the hook for (a).

Still I have yet to hear of people being randomly stopped, I imagine if you are acting sketchy around LE with your suppressor you might flag and get questioned, but still as I have demonstrated, I have yet to be questioned in 8 years with over 20 suppressors, to include traveling on a monthly basis back and forth to TX with them. So your hypothetical randomness situation is bit lame.

I think point I think everyone sees you are just being a jack ass over the situation, it;s clear state law makes it a felony, just holding a suppressor is against the law in this case, until you show exemption. If you make the choice to refuse to show you paperwork you deserve all that you get, and if you are lucky you might be able to prove your point here and validate your position, but most of us are smart enough to not get that far.

Best of luck on your Stand, the position is pretty clear, I know myself and others would not recommend taking that course, but clearly you value your god given rights more than we do.
 
Re: Who can ask for papers?

We've tried numerous time to educate you with the facts, but you refuse to believe them.

Fact: In the state of Texas, and apparently Connecticut, and others, it is illegal to possess some NFA items without the proper paperwork.

Fact: If you are questioned and refuse to produce the proper paperwork, it can be reasonable assumed that you do not have the correct paperwork.

Fact: At that point you can be arrested.

As for proving to you that it is constitutional, I cant prove that to you. You believe it isnt. I believe it is. It'll be settle by court ruling one day.

Beyond that youre just being obstinate.
 
Re: Who can ask for papers?

I find it amusing that so many people complain about the laws and restrictions against NFA ownership, yet can't even be courteous when asked for paperwork. They aren't very common here in CA and when an officer or rangemaster asks, I am happy to present them and answer any questions they may have about legality. The more they associate NFA with being an asshole, the thinner the ice will become.
 
Re: Who can ask for papers?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BachelorJack</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I have been asked. Both times clean cut. Wearing khakis and a blue polo with a citibank logo. New car.

First time was when some people at an outdoor dnr range saw me verifying a zero on a suppressed rifle. They pulled up. Started walking over to the benches, saw the gun, stopped, got back into their car and left. Responding law enforcement wanted to see my "class 3" license. I finished what i was doing while they dug through my laminated super reduced flip books of random forms looking for the right one.

At one point i told them it was indeed in there. They asked which one, and i told them i had supreme confidence they would be able to figure it out. Pretty sure they gave up out of frustration.

Second time i was dressed identical. Traveling down I95 in FL at 3am or so. Was driving from SC to West Palm Beach to go fishing with my Dad for the weekend. Got pulled over for speeding, sort of. Pretty sure he did not get me clocked, just knew it was over 100mph fast. I was asked if i knew how fsst i was going. I replied i did, but did he? So he asked how fast. I told him it doesnt work that way. He was welcome to tell me what his radar said, but i was confident he didnt get it.

At that point he asked if he could search the vehicle. I said he could if i could step out and take a piss. Keep in mind we are both on the side of I95 in the fairly dark part with nothing and no one around for a good distance.

So im pissing a good bit away and he opens the trunk which is full of nfa fun and sort of freaks out on me. Drawn gun, yelling, me pissing still. I tell him he needs to call his shift sergeant and if he puts bracelets on me they are mine to keep.

So im sitting there in cuffs. A bunch of cars pull up. Everyone says im "in big trouble". Shift sergant pulls up. I ask him if he would like to see my letters from the ATF stating i can have these items. He flips through the flip book for 2 seconds and goes and counsels the officer while another officer undid the bracelets. I ask if they want to shoot them and they take turns firing a suppressed 9mm glock into the drainage on the shoulder. Everyone got to except the first officer who had to go sit in his car because i said he needed to go spend some time in "timeout".
From start to finish, took about an hour. And i kept the cuffs not because i have any use for them but because the officer had to buy another set out of his own pocket.

I have flown, driven, gone all sorts of places and those are the only times it has happened to me. </div></div>

Let me make sure I understand this..

Encounter #1: A "Concerned Citizen" called 911 about you shooting guns that they thought were illegal. Local Law Enforcement was called to investigate the suspected illegal weapon. Upon their arrival, instead of explaining what you had and how you were able to have it, you sling a "laminated super reduced flip books of random forms" and expect them to find your "Class 3 license" while you continue to shoot and make smart-ass snide remarks towards them attempting to do their job??? They did give up out of frustration I'm sure only instead of stretching the story and arresting you for some weak charge or for possession of bad guns, they turned you loose??? How is this any sort of encroachment on your Constitutional Rights? There is no way that you "Finished what you were doing" and then directed your attention towards the pee-on uniform cops... We don't work like that. The officer-safety issues in that situation are endless. I'm sure something occurred that parallels your fable, but it didn't go down the way you're telling the tale.

Encounter #2: I call BS on your story. I'm quite sure that you got pulled over for speeding, and I'm quite sure that you had NFA weapons in your vehicle. The BS comes in when you allow him to search your car while you "Take a Piss" on the side of I-95.. I highly doubt that a man who takes issue with showing NFA paperwork to the cops would allow a cop to search his car without PC especially while he was not watching. Also, no cop with any amount of training would allow you to go to the side of I-95 and piss while he was searching your car by himself! Then, the part about you telling him that he was in timeout while you and all of the fist-dragging ape cops shot guns on the side of I-95 is bullshit too.. I almost forgot the part about keeping his handcuffs. You mean to tell everybody that he removed the handcuffs from your wrists and then handed them to you??? -BS-

I bring back your past statement about cops being liars. If your stories actually occurred (And they very well may have) they are blown so far out of proportion that your credibility is shot.

Anybody who has had any business encounters with the police knows that.

You can lie to the forum, but you can't lie to yourself.

Like LowLight said, this is a cop-bashing thread, not a suppressor thread.

I do not think that the OP intended it to turn out like this, I think he just wanted a simple answer.
 
Re: Who can ask for papers?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Stag15m4</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Like LowLight said, this is a cop-bashing thread, not a suppressor thread.</div></div>

Right. A cop-bashing thread that started out with a cop telling a civilian he'd be happy to arrest him. And ended with the site admin telling everyone that disagreed with it or him that they were kooks, tin-foilers, zombie-believing jackasses. A real cop-bashing festival.

EDIT: I think that the content of this thread provides the OP with a great deal of information with respect to what he can expect. I think he got a PhD-level response to his question.
 
Re: Who can ask for papers?

Hey Dr Ransom if you don't like what i said, take your 32 posts, log off and go... you're not contributing here but clearly have an issue with Law enforcement, which I am personally getting tired of people coming here to bash LE.

Stop being a cry baby and grow a pair, cause if you're gonna act like you wear a tin foil hat I'm gonna treat you like it, that simple. I have no more patience for guys coming on here to cry about the evils of LE. They are members, they do a thankless job so if you want to bash them or government this is not the site to do it on.
 
Re: Who can ask for papers?

It is reasonable for me to assume that if a person is driving a car, they probably have a license, so unless they give me a reason to pull them over, I can't. Plain and simple...

It is NOT reasonable to assume that if a person has a silencer that it is legal, therefore it IS reasonable for me to ask them for their paperwork.

Not sure where the confusion is. Of course, I'd just let my watch commander sort it out.
smile.gif
 
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