Advice on building a 223 bolt action please

[Hewie]

Gday All,

Im hoping to get a little bit of advice please.

Due to licencing Im restricted to shooting 223 bolt action at the moment .... as such Id like to look at building the most accurate 223 I can, within a reasonable price (I cant afford 10k optics etc)

After spending hours and hours researching possible configurations and options Ive managed to just confuse myself further and so Im hoping for a bit of advice on the best components/suppliers to use in trying to build my new rifle and in what configuration and spec.

I do understand that its a personal thing but any advice would be gratefully accepted.

The rifle is going to be mixed use (long range target shooting and varmint work) and doesnt need to ultra light weight ... just really accurate at the longest ranges achievable for a 223.

Ideally, Id like to be able to shoot out to between 600 and 1000 meters (I understand I wont be taking out medium/large game at range) for the purposes of target shooting, and varmints out at 400-500 meters.

Any help regarding barrels, twist, optics and stocks would be greatly accepted.

Cheers

H

 

[buster hindend]

I had Greg Young at Southern Precision Rifles (known as Bugholes here on Snipers Hide) build me a .223 Ackley. I can't say enough good things about Greg and his work. He is extremely knowledgeable and very helpful. He has built me two rifles and both are extremely accurate.

I put an 8 twist Krieger barrel on mine and shoot the 75amax bullets. I have shoot this combo very accurrate out to 800 yards. I went with a McMillan Game Scout stock.
The Ackley version is great, mine shoots the fire form loads just as accurate as the AI cases. I have shot from 55 gr Vmax to the 75 Amax
Its such a fun gun to shoot.

 

[turbo54]

Ackley improved if that "qualifies" under your licensing. The AI will net you 100-150fps over standard 223.

The 80gr and heavier bullets are best at range. While the ~75s aren't bad, the 80+ bullets are better.

A 1:7.5 or 1:7.7 barrel is needed to surely stablilize most of the 80(ish) bullets. The 1:8 will "often" handle the 80s, but sometimes isn't enough.

I've never used the 90gr Berger, personally, but I've read it's tough to get to shoot, and requires a 1:7 barrel. For maximizing the potential of the 223, you might want to look at them.

Personally though, I'd set up a 223AI with a 22-24" quality barrel to shoot 80gr amaxs at ~2900-3000fps. Won't be "amazing" at 1000 yards, but will certainly do it.

 

[Topstrap]

Agree with turbo54 on bullet weights and barrel twist. We've been doing fairly well with initial testing with 75gr amax in our Savage LRPV with factory 1:9 twist to 1000 yards but if given the chance we'd update the barrel to faster twist and shoot heavier bullets.

You didn't mention the type of gun but if you're wanting to start from scratch and do the work yourself I'm still a big fan of the Savage Target Action, if you can find one of the Savage LRPV actions they are set up for the short case such as the 223 and 204. Pick one of the barrel manufactures that make pre-fit barrels in the twist you desire, add a 30moa mount and good scope and you'd be good to go.

Not up on the 223AI so can't comment on it but if it'll give you a bit more velocity and if you can hit the 3000fps mark it should work pretty well for you. We have to pay close attention to any hits at the 900 - 1000 yard line since they won't move the steel and sometimes won't even cause it to ring. Hope to see bullet splatter for a called hit at those distances.

Good luck, keep us informed how it goes for you.

Topstrap

 

[Hewie]

Cheers for the info guys.

Are AI cartridges (Im presuming its the cartridge that is AI?) normally fairly easy to get ? If chambered for AI does that rule out standard 223 rounds if the AI cartridges arent available ?

In terms of type of building the rifle .. Ill probably work our the components Id like and then have someone assemble it for me down here.

Ive been looking at Surgeon actions and Kreiger barrels in a 1:7 ... any thoughts on them ? will they work together ?

Would these components fit in a MDT chassis ?

Really appreciate the help.

Cheers

H

 

[Hewie]

I was also looking at shooting Lapua 69grn ammo as a 'standard' .. is it any good ?

 

[-=boone=-]

Tikka T3 Varmint, done.

 

[turbo54]

Are AI cartridges (Im presuming its the cartridge that is AI?) normally fairly easy to get ? If chambered for AI does that rule out standard 223 rounds if the AI cartridges arent available ?

Ive been looking at Surgeon actions and Kreiger barrels in a 1:7 ... any thoughts on them ? will they work together ?
H

AI chambers are designed so the parent cartridge can be fired (safely and accurately) from them. A 223 case goes in, and a "fireformed" AI case comes out. 223AI is a popular/prevalent AI, so Redding and other die manufacturers sell them. Once the brass has been fireformed, you use the AI dies to size/load them.

So, to directly answer your question: No, 223AI cartridges are not generally available and can't be purchased comerically. It is a wildcat and you have to load them yourself. However, regular 223 cartridges can be fired from the 223AI rifle.

Surgeon stuff is good. Krieger stuff is good. I think you should look to a 1-7.5 or 1-7.7 twist barrel though, unless you're planning on the 90gr Bergers.

 

[Hewie]

Would a Tikka's 1:8 stabilise a 80grn round ? or would I be looking at a new barrel ?

I know someone that loves his Tikka, but he shoots 55 grn out to about 400 meters .... I really want to be able to stretch out as far as I can with this rifle.

 

[turbo54]

Would a Tikka's 1:8 stabilise a 80grn round?

Maybe.

I'd say "probably" if you live/shoot at high altitude and/or low pressure in a hot climate.

1:8 is borderline for the 80gr amax, that's why we've been suggesting 1:7.5 or 1:7.7

 

[garandman]

I'd def include plans / factor in costs to reload your own ammo.... what's the point of a high capability rifle if you self limit on ammo?

 

[Hewie]

AI chambers are designed so the parent cartridge can be fired (safely and accurately) from them. A 223 case goes in, and a "fireformed" AI case comes out. 223AI is a popular/prevalent AI, so Redding and other die manufacturers sell them. Once the brass has been fireformed, you use the AI dies to size/load them.

So, to directly answer your question: No, 223AI cartridges are not generally available and can't be purchased comerically. It is a wildcat and you have to load them yourself. However, regular 223 cartridges can be fired from the 223AI rifle.

Surgeon stuff is good. Krieger stuff is good. I think you should look to a 1-7.5 or 1-7.7 twist barrel though, unless you're planning on the 90gr Bergers.

So when I order the action Id ask them to configure it to 223AI ?

Maybe.

I'd say "probably" if you live/shoot at high altitude and/or low pressure in a hot climate.

1:8 is borderline for the 80gr amax, that's why we've been suggesting 1:7.5 or 1:7.7

I live and shoot in a majority very (very) hot/dry climate .. but its low altitude (close to sea level mostly) ... so it sounds like the 1:7.5 / 80gr in AI is going to be the go.

Cheers

H

 

[Hewie]

I'd def include plans / factor in costs to reload your own ammo.... what's the point of a high capability rifle if you self limit on ammo?

Definitely, I do plan on getting a press for loading, but Id also like to be able to use high end factory load in whatever rifle that I have put together just to cover my bases. I know it probably wont be as accurate but it will atleast mean I can keep shooting for the day.

 

[turbo54]

So when I order the action Id ask them to configure it to 223AI ?

There are no action differences between a standard 223 or 223AI. None that I'm aware of anyway. It won't hurt to tell them you're building a 223AI though, just in case they have something interesting to say about it.

More importantly is finding a gunsmith with the suitable chambering reamer. You might want to start lining that up now, in case you need to order one.

 

[-=boone=-]

Maybe.

I'd say "probably" if you live/shoot at high altitude and/or low pressure in a hot climate.

1:8 is borderline for the 80gr amax, that's why we've been suggesting 1:7.5 or 1:7.7

I'm not sure what you’re getting at. A 1/8 twist will stabilize a 80 grainer.

 

[Hewie]

I had Greg Young at Southern Precision Rifles (known as Bugholes here on Snipers Hide) build me a .223 Ackley. I can't say enough good things about Greg and his work. He is extremely knowledgeable and very helpful. He has built me two rifles and both are extremely accurate.

I put an 8 twist Krieger barrel on mine and shoot the 75amax bullets. I have shoot this combo very accurrate out to 800 yards. I went with a McMillan Game Scout stock.
The Ackley version is great, mine shoots the fire form loads just as accurate as the AI cases. I have shot from 55 gr Vmax to the 75 Amax
Its such a fun gun to shoot.

Buster .. what sort of optics are you using ? based on the info in here it seems like you've pretty much got the exact build Im looking for

How do you think it would perform over 800 or with a slightly heavier round ?

 

[beretta989]

Friend of mine has the Tikka 1-8 223 and shoots the 80 A-max with great results out to 600yds(Thats the limits of his range.

 

[surfr716]

I'm not sure what you’re getting at. A 1/8 twist will stabilize a 80 grainer.

Depends on the bullet, and atmospheric conditions, as to whether a 1:8 will stabilize it ir not. Some 80 grainers will others wont. It depends on the bullets length not its weight. If you have a boat tail with a long ogive and a lot of contact surface it may not stabalize, in fact ive seen some 80s out of my 1:8 keyhole. Not a big deal for me because it will launch 75s and I like them but if I wanted to go to distances the op was talking aboit a faster twist and heavier bullet would probably be in order

 

[TKellogg]

My tikka shoots 80gr Amax's over varget like a dream but you need to switch over to AI mags to have a repeater but good luck finding a t3 varmint since they are no longer imported

 

[-=boone=-]

Depends on the bullet, and atmospheric conditions, as to whether a 1:8 will stabilize it ir not. Some 80 grainers will others wont. It depends on the bullets length not its weight. If you have a boat tail with a long ogive and a lot of contact surface it may not stabalize, in fact ive seen some 80s out of my 1:8 keyhole. Not a big deal for me because it will launch 75s and I like them but if I wanted to go to distances the op was talking aboit a faster twist and heavier bullet would probably be in order

I'm aware, however a 1/8 will in fact stabilize 80 grainers. I wasn't tying to say it will stabilize every bullet manufacturers 80's. SMK's should be a safe bet for year round shooting. I stabilized 77's out of a 1/9 sps tactical without problems.

If it were my money I'd call russel and have him spin me up a .223.

 

[DesertLefty]

Due to licencing Im restricted to shooting 223 bolt action at the moment ....

Hewie,

Where the heck do you live? If you don't say, then you're gonna get a lot of irrelevant and impractical advice.

Hint: Fill in your profile.

 

[buster hindend]

Buster .. what sort of optics are you using ? based on the info in here it seems like you've pretty much got the exact build Im looking for

How do you think it would perform over 800 or with a slightly heavier round ?

Currently I have a NF NXS 3.5x15 on there.
Honestly, I haven't shot anything heavier than a 75Amax so I can't help you out with heavier rounds

Here is mine, and yes I know the bi pod is on backwards......LOL

 

[buster hindend]

Here is another picture with both rifles that Greg built for me
He's awesome

 

[Hewie]

Hewie,

Where the heck do you live? If you don't say, then you're gonna get a lot of irrelevant and impractical advice.

Hint: Fill in your profile.

Sorry

I live in Western Australia. Its very difficult to get firearms here.

Without over complicating it, to get a rifle I either have to have access to a property that is big enough and has big enough game on it ie the larger caliber is required for humane culling purposes or join a club that shoots on a big enough range.

I have access to a few ranges that can accommodate up to 223 and property sufficient to justify a 223. I could get a 308 and might be able to swing a 338 .. but the issue is the only place I could use them is about 10 hours away from home so Id only get to use them once a year.

I already have a 223 Rem 700 in a 1:9, but I like to use that as a general purpose rifle .. and build a precision rifle for longer range work.

Ill fill out my profile

Cheers

H

 

[Hewie]

I'm aware, however a 1/8 will in fact stabilize 80 grainers. I wasn't tying to say it will stabilize every bullet manufacturers 80's. SMK's should be a safe bet for year round shooting. I stabilized 77's out of a 1/9 sps tactical without problems.

If it were my money I'd call russel and have him spin me up a .223.

Who's Russell ?

Currently I have a NF NXS 3.5x15 on there.
Honestly, I haven't shot anything heavier than a 75Amax so I can't help you out with heavier rounds

Here is mine, and yes I know the bi pod is on backwards......LOL

How do you find the 3.5x15 for shots out to 600/800 ?

Here is another picture with both rifles that Greg built for me
He's awesome

 

[boostless]

I have a fixed 10 power on my .223 SPS Tacitcal and it's good enough that I can still put the crosshairs on clay pigeons at 600. I think it would be fine to 800 as well.

 

[Hewie]

Very nice Buster .. very nice indeed.

 

[ranger1183]

Instead of trying to get something shipped outside the US (which requires a headache of State Department paperwork), why not buy from an excellent source much closer to home.

Barnard Precision

Barnard Precision in New Zealand makes some of the finest and most accurate rifles, actions and barrels you can find anywhere.

 

[long range newbie]

I would say go full blown custom if you can afford/ are aloud to. defiance deviant action, 26in shilen barrel with 1:7 if your going to shoot long range only (for the 80+ bullets and 90gr is the biggest Ive seen) stock that fits you best heres the most common,accuracy international ax/aics, mcmillan a5, manners stocks, hs precision, and use a detachable box magazine that takes accuracy international mags since they are probably the best on the market. I would also use timney or jewel trigger. Glass bed your stock, use best optic, rings and base you can afford in your budget.

 

[Hewie]

Instead of trying to get something shipped outside the US (which requires a headache of State Department paperwork), why not buy from an excellent source much closer to home.

Barnard Precision

Barnard Precision in New Zealand makes some of the finest and most accurate rifles, actions and barrels you can find anywhere.

Cheers Ill look into them and see what they have on offer.

I was thinking that once I had decided on the components I wanted to use then I would have one of the larger East Coast suppliers get them in and build the rifle for me.

 

[Hewie]

I would say go full blown custom if you can afford/ are aloud to. defiance deviant action, 26in shilen barrel with 1:7 if your going to shoot long range only (for the 80+ bullets and 90gr is the biggest Ive seen) stock that fits you best heres the most common,accuracy international ax/aics, mcmillan a5, manners stocks, hs precision, and use a detachable box magazine that takes accuracy international mags since they are probably the best on the market. I would also use timney or jewel trigger. Glass bed your stock, use best optic, rings and base you can afford in your budget.

Would having a 1:7 mean that I couldnt use lighter rounds ? that is .. would I be restricted to 80+ gr rounds ? or would I still be able to use a 55 gr with accuracy for instance ?

 

[DesertLefty]

I live in Western Australia. Its very difficult to get firearms here... H

Well, good on ya mate!

Long ago I spent 6 years in Canberra as a grad student a 'Strine Nashnul Youni. Got to spend two winters doing fieldwork in the northern Queensland bush.

Oz was more tolerant of firearms back then.

Since you've already got a more conventional 223, I'm gonna vote for 223 AI to give you a little more reach.

I'm in the process of rebarreling my old 700 Varmint Synthetic to 223 AI. I long ago modified the magazine box to allow longer rounds by taking out the sheet metal block that shortens the Rem mag well for 223 and replacing it with a thinner piece of Al plate. Mine can now take a COAL of 2.55" (vs. 2.25" before). Works much better with them long skinny bullets.

 

[DesertLefty]

Would having a 1:7 mean that I couldnt use lighter rounds ? that is .. would I be restricted to 80+ gr rounds ? or would I still be able to use a 55 gr with accuracy for instance ?

Not a problem. Too much twist is always better than too little.

The #^%@$#$ factory barrel on my Varmint Synthetic is very accurate (easily 0.5 MOA), but it only has 1:12 twist and it can't even stabilize a 69 gr SMK.

 

[Swift]

Would having a 1:7 mean that I couldnt use lighter rounds ? that is .. would I be restricted to 80+ gr rounds ? or would I still be able to use a 55 gr with accuracy for instance ?

It's a lot tougher to overspin a bullet than it is to underspin it. Most milspec ar15 barrels are 1:7 and mine eat 55s without issue. To get a 223 out to those distances, I'd recommend the longest barrel you're comfortable shooting and a beefy action like a Surgeon. You can(generally) run hotter loads safer but that's up for debate.

To get the best accuracy, a quality barrel is paramount. Any of the high end barrel makers will suffice but this is the last place you want to cheap out. Kreiger, Bartlein, Hart, Lilja, Douglas, Broughton, Pac-Nor, Shilen will all serve you well. I would avoid Bergara and ER Shaw for what you want to do. A good barrel makes all the difference.

 

[DesertLefty]

I long ago modified the magazine box to allow longer rounds by taking out the sheet metal block that shortens the Rem mag well for 223 and replacing it with a thinner piece of Al plate. Mine can now take a COAL of 2.55" (vs. 2.25" before)...

Here's a shot of my mod to the BDL-type mag box.

 

[DesertLefty]

And here's a shot with a 75 gr factory round loaded to standard 223 length (2.25" max). You can see how much more room there is now.

 

[DesertLefty]

And here's a rough mock up of what the cartridge will look like when I load JLK 80's to minimum seating depth. (Compared to the same factory 75 gr round in the previous shot.)

 

[DesertLefty]

The bottom line is that whatever magazine system you use, you'll want the ability to load those heavy bullets to significantly longer COAL than the factory spec for 223.

 

[Hewie]

Well, good on ya mate!

Long ago I spent 6 years in Canberra as a grad student a 'Strine Nashnul Youni. Got to spend two winters doing fieldwork in the northern Queensland bush.

Oz was more tolerant of firearms back then.

Since you've already got a more conventional 223, I'm gonna vote for 223 AI to give you a little more reach.

I'm in the process of rebarreling my old 700 Varmint Synthetic to 223 AI. I long ago modified the magazine box to allow longer rounds by taking out the sheet metal block that shortens the Rem mag well for 223 and replacing it with a thinner piece of Al plate. Mine can now take a COAL of 2.55" (vs. 2.25" before). Works much better with them long skinny bullets.

ANU is meant to be very good for research grads, PHD then ?

Sadly its very anti-firearm these days.

Is it possible to purchase modified mags & mag boxes to suit ? or is it a simple process to modify them ? I was looking to use Accuracy Int. mags for this rifle as they are plentiful.

It's a lot tougher to overspin a bullet than it is to underspin it. Most milspec ar15 barrels are 1:7 and mine eat 55s without issue. To get a 223 out to those distances, I'd recommend the longest barrel you're comfortable shooting and a beefy action like a Surgeon. You can(generally) run hotter loads safer but that's up for debate.

To get the best accuracy, a quality barrel is paramount. Any of the high end barrel makers will suffice but this is the last place you want to cheap out. Kreiger, Bartlein, Hart, Lilja, Douglas, Broughton, Pac-Nor, Shilen will all serve you well. I would avoid Bergara and ER Shaw for what you want to do. A good barrel makes all the difference.

Ive read that after a point the length of the barrel doesnt provide any additional benefit, is this true ?

I was thinking that for this rifle something in the 22-26 would probably be ideal ... would 26 be the best ?

 

[Hewie]

So in terms of barrels/actions

A Surgeon action chambered for 223 AI with a Krieger barrel 1:7 shooting a 80+ proj should get me close to 800m (about 875 yards) fairly easily and fairly accurately.

Would all of that fit into a MDT TAC 21 chassis ? or would an AI stock be a better option ?

And lastly would a Nightforce ATACR be overkill on that rifle ?

Cheers for all the help folks, I really appreciate it.

 

[Hewie]

Cost aside, is a factory Tika going to shoot as well out to 800+ ?

I'm genuinely interested.

Cheers

H

 

[Swift]

Hewie, barrel length can reach a point of diminishing returns but 22-26 is typical for long range shooting. As a general rule of thumb, for every inch you gain or lose about 10-20fps. For those pushing the limits of their cartridge as you plan to do, every little bit can help. If you don't mind humpin around a 26" barrel I would go for it. If weight becomes a concern, mind the contour because that's where you'll see the greatest weight savings.

A 7 twist AI launching 80 Bergers from a Surgeon in an AICS with an ATACR would be an extremely formidable combination. I've seen similar setups reach 900 with a 75-80% success rate. Learn your wind calls because that will be the biggest limiting factor at those ranges. Also, AICS 223 mags have a maximum seating depth of 2.550" which leaves me plenty of real estate with 75s seated long so that's something to keep in mind when choosing an action.

 

[Hewie]

Cheers Swift.

Im more than happy to use a 26 on this rifle if its going to get me closer to the 900-1000m mark.

Ill be contacting a few people tomorrow to see what they can put together for me

Thanks everyone for your help, comments and thoughts, much appreciated.

Cheers

H

 

[dbateman]

Hey mate.


How did you go with you 223 ?

223 will run out to 1000yds pretty well.

I have a Rem 700 SPS tactical at the moment it will get out there but I am thinking of having one made.

My SPS is pretty accurate right out of the box definitely sub moa I haven't done anything to it but it wears a USO SN-3 not sure if that helps but it makes me feel good.
The sps also shoots 77smk very well.

Something along the lines of surgeon action and dbm, MCM A5 stock 20-22" barrel oh also chambered in 223AI

26" seems a little long to me but then again I like short tubes.

 

[TRTAC]

Here is my two cents. I didnt read every single post cause I dont have that much time........ If you want the most accuracy out of this thing you can get, here are your ingredients. Start with a BAT solid bottom action. Choose a barrel that is single point cut ie. bartline, kreiger with a fast twist. Mcmillan A5 adjustable everything, and a jewell trigger. For reloading, a redding FL sizer with neck bushing, wilson seater die, lapua brass and berger bullets. You cant and wont miss with these components. Of course you will need a scope that your budget will allow.... good luck.

 

[Greg Langelius *]

I'm thinking that Barnard could probably build you something pretty similar to this configuration in either .223, .22-250 or .223AI. Barrel length and/or twist is something you'd be wanting to discuss with them with reference to your intended usage, but I think the 26" length shown would be a good choice.

Personal experience with this 12BVSS design chambered in .308 in several years of 1000yd F Class competition leaves me with a very high regard for this rifle configuration.

I would suggest that the basic .223 chambering is very effective for varmints and small predators, but that it's true effective hunting range seems to be limited to not much beyond 300yd. I can't speak for the .223AI, but the .22-250 works well beyond that distance limit. The .22-250 would need a rifling with at least as fast a twist as 1:9" to handle the heavier bullets.

The .223 and .223AI would need to loaded to near max performance to get the type of distance and terminal performance you suggest, while the .22-250 may not, and that could translate to milder loads for the chambering and consequent longer bore/throat life, always a consideration when rebarrelling is not a simple and readily available capability.

I would not suggest the .22-250 as a competition chambering. Barrel heating is too fast for firing cadences of that intensity. Where firing cadences can be more leisurely, the .22-250 comes into its own very effectively.

Greg

 

[George63]

Cost aside, is a factory Tika going to shoot as well out to 800+ ?

I'm genuinely interested.

Cheers

H

if you get a lucky barrel/ action a quality factory rifle can rival the performance of a custom - if you do not hit the lucky one.......

any reputable custom should be tested before it leaves the shop to do what the luckiest of factory rifles will do

 

[Hewie]

Sorry, been flat out with work.

Ive started collecting components for my 223 platform.

Im using a 28' Lilja Barrel, 3 groove, 1:7, threaded with a muzzle brake on a Stiller Tac 30 Action, in a Manners T4A stock and finally a Timney 510. Im hoping that it will be a solid shooter once its together.

Unfortunately, the barrel and action are about 4 months away so I wont be seeing it before December.

Scope wise I have a ERS (G2) and a XRS (H59) so Ill just see which one suits better.

In the mean time Im using a VTR which Im planning on dropping into a Manners T4A with a Timney when they are back in stock.

Cheers

H