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Why Would Anyone Want to Shoot a Vintage Sniper Rifle?

H

hrfunk

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Don't get the wrong idea from the title of this thread. I'm not a troll spoiling for a cyber brawl. Rather, I'm a true fan of vintage rifles, and I wanted to create a place for others to tell why they are fans too.

In an age where we are drawing ever near to a firearm that will shoot by itself. One that will possess intrinsic accuracy at extreme ranges, and will be fired not by the stroke of a trigger, but the stroke of a key. Here rifles like my 1903A4, hell my 700P's for that matter, look like aging if not obsolete warriors on the modern digital battlefield. In this day and age, why would anyone want to bother with the tedious intricacies of an ancient rifle and optic. Here's why.

The older systems required RIFLEMEN; not computer whiz kids, or video game champions. To really master the vintage rifles (and master them one must to employ them effectively), a rifleman had to not only posses a through understanding of the rifle itself, but the cartridge it fired AND that cartridge's trajectory. He had to have sense of nature, and a feel for things like wind, and temperature. He had to actually shoot in his operational environment, and closely observe any deviation in his point of impact so it could be taken into consideration during future shots. In short, it took effort to shoot well at long distances. And when one had put forth such effort, and gained the requisite knowledge to accurately employ his rifle, he could rightfully take pride in his accomplishment.

That sense of accomplishment as well as a feeling of fraternity with those great riflemen of the past is why I shoot a vintage Sniper rifle. How about you?

HRF
 
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I think you wrapped it up quite nicely. I enjoy the challenge of having to be an equal partner with the rifle. The lower powered optics adds to the process with consistent POA crucial to repeating hits on the target.
 
those things have a soul_ good or bad, they have it, embedded on them with the sweat and the fears of their previous owner(s)_ the trick is the research of "your" twin soul_ not an easy task, but if you'll find it, you understand why only some artillery could part you from her_

(I repectfully disagree with the comment about fake tits below)
 
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One thing I am wondering is if real rifles will retain their value to the present generation who grew up thinking video games, fake titties and bullets with plastic tips are the norm. Nothing like laying your face on the comb of a vintage, wood stocked rifle on a frosty morning.
 
I would agree.

Also, I absolutely love reading through some of these threads on various forums, where there are guys asking about what power scope they need for shooting modern rifles out to 1000, or even 500 yards and you'll often see things like, "Is 20x going to be enough?". I have to sit back and smile because I've learned that interjecting with old school logic really just inflames the situation. Don't get me wrong. I have no misunderstandings about the advantages of modern rifles and (especially) modern optics, of which I have several. But, I also know that there are other forums where I would be laughed off of, or even called a liar (and perhaps even on this very site) for even suggesting that I could shoot one of these rifles to a similar level. But, I take no offense to that, at all. Instead, I see it as an unintended compliment. Not to me, but to these "old POS" rifles that a lot of people won't give the time of day and sure as hell won't admit that they could be considered competition for some of their expensive, flavor-of-the-month toys that they have, today.

Making the same shots that these guys are doing (or better) and doing it with a 70+ year old rifle with a 3-4x scope that's just as old......Yeah. That right there is why I do it. :cool:
 
wilecoyote said:
those things have a soul_ good or bad, they have it, embedded on them with the sweat and the fears of their previous owner(s)
Click to expand...

I think you touched on something here. Soul. It just isn't there with the flat-black, plastic, techno-marvels. Though they are impressive testaments to the science of engineering. This is why a Glock will never be a 1911. Soul. Carried from the trenches of France, to the islands of the pacific, into the mountains of Korea, and through the jungles of Vietnam. Wood & Steel. Soul.

HRF
 
we must remember that ,at their times, those rifles were the state-of-art of their respective nations, born FIRST from the bitteres front-line soldier's report & experiences, AFTER from an ever late consideration of the highest brasses, AFTER that from the industry effort to fullfill this need_
Those rifles weren't in the hands of anyone, but mostly delivered after some proof of proficiency, will to fight, and the knowing that the owner never would be an alive prisoner,if captured_but I think wasn't only the fear to be executed that could have pushed their owners to destroy them before/if being caught: I think the main reason was that "this" was and must end as "their" Rifle ONLY_
Today we can have our laser-rifle simply with some cash, not at "their" time,
today we can conform the chosen laser-rifle to our needs,
but if we will shoot and make alive one of "those" rifles, we must humble ourself to "understand" them, and mandatorily start to thinking,
acting,and feeding "them" following the needs of "this" rifle: tossing cash only,without love & respect, won't help us_
I think must be some lesson, behind that_ If not learned, we will remain collectors only, and for sure "their" rifles will survive us, as could be right & good for a collector, but not for ...
 
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I'm not a sniper and I have no motivation to change that. I'm also no re-enactor, my interests are mostly associated with target shooting, and there are, for all practical purposes, no organized historical sniper shoots within my modest travel radius.

My recent project intended to add a modern scoped sighting capacity to several as-issued Mosin-Nagant 91/30's was done as a means to provide a moderately effective shooter at rock-bottom costs; both to assemble, and to shoot. Intended primarily for my Grandchildren, the capacity of a scope to be zeroed independent of any iron sights idiosyncrasies greatly simplifies the process of primary shooter education. My plan is to get them shooting first, and then work on refining their skills, including specifics like iron sights proficiency. This may appear bass-ackwards, but simply, you gotta see these kids shoot to believe how far they've come, mostly on their own, in so little time.

I'm not a collector, and my shooting goals are probably best met by rifles that are neither historically nor sniper-ly specialized. For my purposes, the 91/30's I've assembled are both more reasonably affordable, and their optics, while modest, are probably marginally superior to their historically accurate counterparts.

Greg
 
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I'm also one that enjoys the challenge of trying to figure out the small tricks to shooting some of these older rifles. Also you just can't beat the feel of holding some of these pieces of history.
 
The ones I prefer are the M40, M40 A1 and Win 70 heavy barrel. None of which require much as far as "tricks" to get them to shoot. Even with the old Green Redfield's and USMC Unertls. They are not so far from where we are today. Bipods, low light conditions and really good adjustments excepted. And the USMC Unertl's do have repeatable adjustments.
 
Why Would Anyone Want to Shoot a Vintage Sniper Rifle?
Click to expand...

Why Not???

Somebody a long time ago started the NBPRP for civilians. His name was Teddy Roosevelt and he did it in 1904, the idea was to get US "civilian" Citizens involved in shooting military rifles. The DCM was born and spawned the CMP.

The CMP sells us vintage rifles, and provide training and matches for us to shoot these old war horses.

Not every one can afford to pay a thousand or more dollars to compete in High Power of Precision Rifle Matches. Not everyone can afford to pay for all the gadgets required to be completive in those matches.

But there aren't many who can't afford a hundred or so dollars for a rifle, step on the line and be completive. You can with vintage rifles. A match I conducted a couple years ago was won by a guy who bought a $100 Mosin and some cheap surplus ammo at Cabalas' the night before the match.

I can give a small kid a M1 Carbine and he can compete with grown ups.

The CMP has strict rules on not modifying these rifles for matches, which means it's not a money game. I have had WWII and Korean War Vets come to a match just to be able to shoot what they shot in their youth. The look on their faces would answer your "why would anyone shoot vintage rifles".

Look at the cost of entering a Precision Rifle Match, sometimes a couple hundred dollars, compare that to a CMP GSM match, a few dollars, I charge $5 ONLY if there is someone from the club present wanting range fees, other then that, I don't charge.

Some of us are getting old, we can't handle the physical requirements required at some of these Precision Rifle Matches.

Shooting Vintage Rifle Matches is more about the shooter then the rifle. If the gun can shoot 3.5 in it can clean the course, but it doesn't work that way. When you have to shoot 1/3 of the match standing on your hind legs, its a whole new ball game.

Do to the popularity of "sniper rifle matches" in the last few years the CMP has move into that venue. Only you have to use rifles used prior to 1955. A whole new ball game. A fancy $2000 dollar NightForce scope is nice, but not allowed. You have to shoot 300 & 600 yards with maybe a 2.2 or 2.5 scope. Yeah there is the 8X scopes used on the M1941
s that legal, but its expensive. You can get one of those vintage scopes for less then $100 bucks. You can buy a pre-made M1903A4, or M1941 or you can build one. I have less then $300 in my M1903a4, and it shoots a heck of a lot better then I do, but its not bedded, its not tricked out. If it shoots, its my fault, if it don't shoot, its my fault.

And I haven't even address the History Aspect of Vintage Rifles. My father carried a M1 Carbine in WWII and Korea. He loves that gun. He's gone now, but I think of him every time I shoot my carbine. I think of what he went though when he shot his.

I got a used sling from the CMP for my Carbine. It has a name written on it. My wife did some kind of internet search and found there were two of the same names from WWII, one was in Europe, one was in the South Pacific.

There is no way to know if the sling belonged to one of these guys or not, I like to think it did. I shoot the rifle in honor of them, and my father.

I got my M1 from the then DCM in the early 80's, its a 6 digit WWII model, it came with dings and scraps on the stock. I have to wonder how they got there, what was the soldier doing when the rifle got these dings and scrapes.

So again, I answer the question "Why Would Anyone Want to Shoot a Vintage Sniper Rifle?" with WHY NOT.
 
I have built and bought many "old School"sniper rifles over my shooting life. I built one from parts while in the 'Nam which I still have and enjoy shooting. Doping the wind, staring through the mirage at a long range target using these old war horses is just so much fun.
 
Hi Guys
Good thread hrfunk and it looks like everyone is just about on the same page, most likely because each one of us "cares" about these rifles.
The history, the legends, the real life stories, the look, the feel, the smell...for some it brings back memories, for others it triggers the imagination but all share the same interest.
I have modern tack drivers with top optics that will make head shots at XXXX yards/meters and I have a blast shooting them; nevertheless, give me an "old sniper rifle", if I may name it this way, and I am in a different world.
I sometimes used to wear a Harley shirt saying "If I have to explain, you wouldn't understand"; this is exactly how I feel about "old sniper rifles".
Good shooting to all.
Ombre noire
 
Because the M1903 and all of its variants still kicks ass after over a century, and can probably still outshoot most of these newfangled doohickeys with a little bit of range time.
 
There is nothing better than becoming one with your old rifle. Threads like this make me miss my old 91/30 :(
 
These older rifles have stories to tell. Both old and new. When I moved away for college the first thing I did was buy a SMLE. It was a lend lease rifle and had different scars and nicks on the stock. I can only imagine what that rifle went through. That rifle followed me everywhere and was an integral part of going through college. There are a lot of memories in that rifle.

I got the 'new-cool' rifle bug and messed around with those. I Love them, but I find myself going back to these older rifles. They're just so much better.
 
Great thread! I just got into old military rifles this year with the purchase of a M1-Garand and more recently a Schmidt-Rubin K-31. While i don't necessarily class these as "sniper" rifles per-say, They are old battle rifles that have stories to tell. For instance, the K-31 has a tag under the butt-plate that tells the name, age, unit, and hometown of the original soldier to whom it was issued. Little bits of history like this add a value to these old pieces that cannot be measured in numbers.
And then, there is the skill that must be acquired through learning, not through purchase, as others have so eloquently spoken of earlier in this post.
I bought mine so that I would have the history, and found out that I had purchased very valuable learning tools---These old iron sighted pieces are schooling me in skill and marksmanship, aside from dialing in and letting it rip. I have a long way to go!
 
kraigWY said:
Why Not???

Somebody a long time ago started the NBPRP for civilians. His name was Teddy Roosevelt and he did it in 1904, the idea was to get US "civilian" Citizens involved in shooting military rifles....
Click to expand...

around the second half of 1400 an austrian emperor named Maximilian I, unable to enforce Tyroleans to conscripting,marching,or otherwise pushing them to quitting mind to their business only, indicted free target competitions with rich winning prizes in Tyrol _ (seems could be some coincidence with some bitter lesson learned against the Swiss Army)_ Tyroleans responded quite well to his initiative, followed from the birth of self-defense territorial units highly skilled on sharpshooting_ Since those times, their heritage in Tyrol has never ended, even in absence of others enlightened emperors_
 
If I even tried to acquire an $800 91/30 PU Sniper, my Wife would have my ears, my tail, and both hind hooves for her trophy wall; and rightly so. That's OK for a collector (which I am most emphatically not!) but not for someone who has a home and extended family to support in such times as these. Not knockin' it, just not doin' it, s'all...

The Grandkids have their own views on this. They are not attracted to the sniper role, for whatever reason, and I respect their reasons.

But you put up a Zombie target, and their eyes narrow. They want to do that zombie.

Hey, any port in a storm, I say. Not the same thing? If you say so; meanwhile, I'll see that and raise them another 50yd.

To paraphrase an old Scouting axiom, "If it isn't fun, it isn't marksmanship...".

Now, then; getting back to 'times such as these'. They are not like any other times, and 'carrying on regardless' could well be an exercise in denial.

No gun is worth what they're asking for nowabouts. I'm not at all checked out on what it takes to buy one anyway, but I have difficulty separating need from the sort of want that makes folks do such things. Some wants do best with a side helping of patience and self-restraint. Sorta like, "If it's actually a good idea today, it'll still be good idea down the road, when costs and supply side economics are more agreeable'. Expending ammo and money in times such as these may be a pleasure. but such could also border on conspicuous consumption, with a side helping of irresponsibility.

I'm in conservation mode. Maybe that's not a terrible idea for nowsabouts, after all.

Greg
 
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We all like history and these pieces made history. We kinda get in touch with the past by shooting them and get an idea of what it was like to use them when they were issued. To shoot them well is an added challenge. Since many of them will match the 0.8 MOA of the lastest Remington 300 Win mag just adapated, but maybe not as consistently, it is always amazing to me just how little progress sniper rifles have actually made. They sure have gained weight though.
 
I saw a video of Mark Keefe a few days ago. In it, he was talking about the M1 Garand, and he made a statement that really resonated with me. This is his quote: "American rifleman, armed with the M1 Garand, did nothing less than save the world." Wow. He's right. CMP might want to look into using that as a sales slogan. In any case, the same words apply equally well to vintage Sniper rifles from that era.

HRF
 
Why does someone want to shoot a vintage sniper rifle?

For exactly the same reason someone wants to shoot s fine old flintlock. Functional art-form that has the soul of the maker and user.

"If I have to explain it, you won't understand."- Absolutely.

Especially true with rifles that have "been there, done that."

Steve A Confirmed Flintlocker
 
"American rifleman, armed with the M1 Garand, did nothing less than save the world." Wow. He's right. CMP might want to look into using that as a sales slogan.
Click to expand...

Have you seen the CMP's backlog lately? I don't think they need a "sales slogan".

Any way that is basically covered in the introduction of the CMP GSM Clinics, that and the history of the NBPRP, DCM, and CMP.
 
I'm getting the sense that my intentions in launching this thread my be suffering from a bit of misinterpretation. As I mentioned in the initial post, I am not challenging the convictions of shooters who enjoy shooting these fine old rifles, believe me when I say I'm one of you. I simply started this thread so everyone with a passion for Vintage Sniper rifles could express their thoughts and/or (dare I say) feelings behind their affinity for them.

Good Shooting,
HRF
 
Counseling? I don't believe I'm familiar with that. Does it mix well with bourbon?

HRF
 
I love the history of it. That, and there is just something about a walnut stock and steel that speaks to me. It also makes you appreciate how far we've come with optics and equipment.
 
the history of the rifle is what does it for me. where it has been, what it has seen. being able to hit a target with them is a real challenge. i have a modern bolt gun shoot all the time and a couple of old warhorses i break out for the challenge of it. enfields that is.....you can keep the mosin soviet stuff....

speaking of guns that shoot by them selves...
http://finance.yahoo.com/news/-27-500-gun-hits-targets-at-1-000-yards-180751722.html
 
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hrfunk....your preamble to the question sums it up well..... plus the sense of history and personal satisfaction of shooting these rifles well...an altogether less "sterile" experience than shooting modern rifles (don't get me wrong I have an AW and a GAP and they are great tools)....is what keeps me shooting vintage rifles.

But ...IMHO....anybody who seriously needs to ask the question probably wouldn't understand the answer?
 
Today is a day to celebrate the US Army's Birthday, 238 years. What better way to celebrate by taking your Garand, Springfield, Krag, M1917, or Carbine to the range.
 
majvret said:
There might be more than water in the bottle in the pic ;)
Click to expand...

Well, that is true. My mother and I were in Albania once, and we sat down to dinner with some friends, and one of them pulled out a water bottle from which he offered me a drink. I assented, and he poured some into my glass. I got the glass just below my nose when I realized it was definitely not water----it was Raki, the local liquor distilled from a wine made from a certain variety of grape indigenous to the area. It was pretty good. I asked another stateside friend of mine who was with us if he'd like some water, and when he agreed, I poured some into his glass. He failed to do the sniff test, and took quite a good gulp. After a bit of coughing and spluttering on his part, we all had a good laugh. Moral of the story----even clear liquid from a water bottle might not be water.
Raki-----Good Stuff!!! I like it plain, and mixed with Coke. I hear it is great in coffee, too.
 
I love the history and the kill counts of vintage rifles (especially the ever doubted Mosin nagant). I was at a range where a guy had a complete vintage Mosin with a 4x scope and he shot way better than my friend and his "custom 700". I was impressed, and now I want one for my collection
 
Swedish Mauser model 38

I recently came across a model 38 Swedish Mauser rifle.
The bottom of the base of the stock had three brass tacks.
What is the story behind the tacks?
 

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unusually mistreated wood, for a swede_ but if this swede has seen some late use around albania & kosovo, as some of his (mistreated)brothers, well, you can start to think...
 
I hear, and agree with what the OP is saying, but there is another aspect I consider. I simply want to know what it felt like to shoot that particular rifle and the caliber it came with. Nostalgia I guess.
 
hrfunk said:
Don't get the wrong idea from the title of this thread. I'm not a troll spoiling for a cyber brawl. Rather, I'm a true fan of vintage rifles, and I wanted to create a place for others to tell why they are fans too.

In an age where we are drawing ever near to a firearm that will shoot by itself. One that will possess intrinsic accuracy at extreme ranges, and will be fired not by the stroke of a trigger, but the stroke of a key. Here rifles like my 1903A4, hell my 700P's for that matter, look like aging if not obsolete warriors on the modern digital battlefield. In this day and age, why would anyone want to bother with the tedious intricacies of an ancient rifle and optic. Here's why.

The older systems required RIFLEMEN; not computer whiz kids, or video game champions. To really master the vintage rifles (and master them one must to employ them effectively), a rifleman had to not only posses a through understanding of the rifle itself, but the cartridge it fired AND that cartridge's trajectory. He had to have sense of nature, and a feel for things like wind, and temperature. He had to actually shoot in his operational environment, and closely observe any deviation in his point of impact so it could be taken into consideration during future shots. In short, it took effort to shoot well at long distances. And when one had put forth such effort, and gained the requisite knowledge to accurately employ his rifle, he could rightfully take pride in his accomplishment.

That sense of accomplishment as well as a feeling of fraternity with those great riflemen of the past is why I shoot a vintage Sniper rifle. How about you?

HRF
Click to expand...

Best answer I could think of, to a darn good question.

This is my rifle. There are many like it, but this one is mine.
My rifle is my best friend. It is my life. I must master it as I must master my life.
My rifle, without me, it's useless. Without my rifle, I am useless. I must fire my rifle true.
I must shoot straighter than my enemy who is trying to kill me.
I must shoot him before he shoots me.
I will...
My rifle and I know that what counts in this war is not the rounds we fire, the noise of our burst, nor the smoke we make.
We know that it is the hits that count. We will hit...
My rifle is human, even as I, because it is my life.
Thus, I will learn it as a brother.
I will learn its weaknesses, its strength, its parts, its accessories, its sights and its barrel.
I will keep my rifle clean and ready, even as I am clean and ready.
We will become part of each other. We will...
Before God, I swear this creed.
My rifle and I are the defenders of my country.
We are the masters of our enemy.
We are the saviors of my life.
So be it, until victory is America's and there is no enemy, but peace!
 
I've "read through the threads", and I agree with the guy, about "soul", in a gun. I bought an old "war bringback" K98. I look at it, and wonder "where" it's been. What did it do? History is an "aura", that follows a gun. I also got an old Savage 99. Where's it been? Same feeling. History tells us "things", and reminds us of our limitations, and also possibilities. Sinking into that, from time to time, isn't a bad thing to do. Feeling the shot, of an old gun, may help us, in some way. I get the "warmest" feelings, from shooting My Grand fathers old Model 55 Winchester 30-30. In "fact", it's just a gun. To me, It's my family history, and an honor to hold. It reminds me of the smell of wet wool coats and pines, and the mist of an autumn morning, and the anticipation of the hunt, to come. No AR does that for me. I haven't shot the K98, yet. I got 2 boxes of shells, for her, but every time I "head to the range", I think I'll "let her rest". Lord knows what her last" shot" did to our boys, over there. Maybe she should stay "quiet", and rest.Just me.
 
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Bought my Garand from CMP sometime around 1995, I forget exactly, never wrote it down.

It has a serial number, SA, that dates to September 1941. The barrel is marked as a Winchester, installed in 1953, and the park'ing is pristine. The only wear I can see is the wear I put on it, and I shoot it several times annually

I refinished the stock, glass bedded it, installed match sights, and added a solid rubber butt extension. I got it for shooting, and shooting is what I do with it. I was one of the last Marines trained on the Garand (ITR, Camp Geiger, 1966), and the Garand is a part of my own history.

The stock on mine has one grandeous ding, and I left it there for character. Prior to 1953, it could have been anywhere, done anything, and I'll ever know.

It's on its second lifetime now, and I plan for it it to have fun and bring smiles to generations of me and mine.

Greg
 
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Dear Gregg; What was "so special", about my K98 purchase, was that I "just happened to be at the gun store", looking for powder, when this "old guy", walks in with the gun. I listened to his story of his uncle and the war, and how he brought this gun home. The "store manager" only offered him $300, for the gun. He wanted $400. I followed him "outside", and gave him $400.And out of his trunk, by the way, came the bayonet, for the gun. I'm not buying any thing, in these times of inflated prices, but when a "deal" crosses my path, I pounce! I went home, and "researched" the gun, and found out it's "true worth", and called the guy, and offered more money. I "felt guilty" about the deal. He said that was OK, but he was happy with what he got. No worries. That just makes the gun so much more special.
 
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I went home, and "researched" the gun, and found out it's "true worth", and called the guy, and offered more money. I "felt guilty" about the deal. He said that was OK, but he was happy with what he got. No worries. That just makes the gun so much more special.
Click to expand...

I have to complement you on your effort, don't see that too much in today's society.
 
I think IT should be "brought back" Honesty. What a forgotten thought. I told him I "owed him " more, on the gun. That I "went with" the worth, from what I'd seen, for an old K98. He was "Old school", and a "deal is a deal".He wouldn't budge. Ever been to a nice restaurant, with a friend, and you Know he's raising 2 kids, and doesn't "have the money", and you offer to pay the bill, but he offers to "split it", and save face? You split it, and give him that. That's what I did, with this guy. He wasn't going to "change the deal". That's what makes the gun " special".I'm standing in the parking lot, with this guy, and we make a deal. Done. I was" back in the days" when a man's word, meant something. Old school! A hand shake, and it's done.! If I could live , in another lifetime, I'd be back in the 40's, when a Man's word was solid, and "Taken as fact"..
kraigWY said:
I have to complement you on your effort, don't see that too much in today's society.
Click to expand...
 
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I like older guns no matter what for many reason including the historical significance, but I really like to challenge myself with an old WW I or WW II era rifles, some in a sniper configuration because I know what I can do with modern stuff.
 
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