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Weird rifle grip

JMGlasgow

JMGlasgow

Old Salt
Full Member
Minuteman
    • Apr 13, 2012
    3,968
    5,557
    Cheyenne, WY
    I was watching the show Extreme Outer Limits and noticed that the host and his wife put their non trigger hand on the scope just in front of the elevation turret. Anyone know why? I always thought that using that hand to support the rear of the stock or to squeeze a rear bag was the proper way, especially when shooting prone.
     
    Putting your hand on the scope can cause some problems supporting the bottom of the stock with your free hand is the best way the reason they put ther hand on the scope is because they are trying to force the rifle to hold were they won't it by applying pressure to the rifle instead of getting in a proper pos and havig a natural point of aim on target
     
    Cause they don't know what they are doing and probably trying to keep the rifle from hopping on them cause their fundamentals suck.

    Lot of people think they know how to shoot, the truth is, they have a lot of bad habits and have no business putting them out there as something positive.
     
    Uh yeah... Don't necessarily go learning your marksmanship fundamentals from TV. There, I just saved you a bunch of wasted ammo.
     
    I know better than to hold my rifle that way, I've watched Lowlight's vids. I was just wondering what you all thought. I do know they teach long range classes. Hope they aren't teaching that rifle hold.
     
    One sees a lot of stupid stuff on TV, usually because the director says that doing that would look better given the camera angle. Remember, it's about entertainment television, not shooting.
     
    I hear all the opinions and criticism, I have truely been curious since their fundamentals are different than most of us. But what makes it
    interesting to me is that their shooting is mighty precise and accurate. Wheather they're shooting gongs a 800 or 1000 yards is very efective
    and on game... Well videos don't lie they both a pretty good a long range game shooting. Soo... Why most of us, including my self, are so perplexed
    is beyond my understanding. I believe this: That using their methoth, wehther they're shooting a 16 Lb. rifle or a10 Lb rifle from the bench, bipods or backpack they'r
    being able to connect! Just what I have noticed.
     
    The world is full of Good -- Bad Shooters... just because you have learned to hit a target doesn't mean you should be teaching it, or that you are a good shooter. As long as your consistently "bad" you'll consistently hit the target. That doesn't mean it will work for everyone else who haven't learned to adapt to poor fundamentals.

    Tons of people who shoot sub MOA dont' follow through on the trigger does that mean we should throw the fundamental of Follow Through out because so many with 1.5LBS trigger have adapted to "tapping" the trigger rather than following through ?

    Not to mention, I can make anyone look great on video, creative editing is easy.
     
    For what’s worth, here is some information I was able to gather.
    This is strictly informative and not intended to create any conflicts. I believe it proves that our way is not the only way! Those of us that have seen the show have seen Bob’s wife with her little hand over the scope and connecting amazing shots at long range. We have to admit it, it's different but it works!

    Due to the need of having the camera rolling, since a spotter is not always the norm, they, the folks at Extreme Outer Limits, use their method which it’s a trained ability to help in spotting their own shots. Whether or not it’s perfect, they claim, it works!
    By not applying much pressure they aid the rifle in the direction of the target after the shot and enable them to see the reaction of the animals at long range.

    I also found out, that Bob Beck trains with snipers every year at the McMillan rifle course and this year he had more first shot hits at 1800 yards than any participants.

    It doesn't seem like Bob will change his shooting technique any time soon.
     
    And that says ?

    I'm 5'2" and weigh 130, here i am with a 20" 338 not using an over the scope grip able to spot everyone of my shots, never needing an spotter. Let me see what the recoil on a 20" 338 looks like with the little miss using her grip ?

    Does that mean I am qualified to teach them or have a TV show ? Maybe...

    "as part of McMillan" meaning they (the military) never sought them out... on the other hand I have taught hundreds of military classes, I graduated USMC Scout Sniper School, and still while not proclaiming there is only one method, I do proclaim that doing it wrong and hitting is not the same as doing it right. Defending wrong or at least not giving a valuable reason "why" is a waste of everyone's time.
    <iframe width="560" height="315" src="//www.youtube.com/embed/f5bZUm681Ys" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen=""></iframe>

    Because it works for me, is hardly a reason or something to be proud of.
     
    I've seen a guy lay a sand bag over the top of his rifle where the barrel runs over the tube to keep his "pinpoint accuracy".......yep.
     
    I will say this, I like their production company, whoever shoots their stuff (Video) they do a nice job.

    Funny, you almost never see their trigger control, they always seem to hide that part. One video I did see him touch off the round, he has a bit of tap, but it's really hard to tell cause they almost never show it. Even on the square range he uses a pretty elaborate rest set up, F Class front rest, rabbit ear rear rest, so it figures his accuracy will be pretty good. He's shooting belly bench rest. Decent rifles, handloads, full rests, it's a recipe to overcome any fundamental errors. Not to mention, animals are pretty darn big, a good wind cheater round and it's a bit of cheating. :)
     
    I have had that method recommended by a very knowledgeable guide when shooting in the field off the pack. I tried it and it works but it just wasn't for me. His recommendation was in reference to a light weight rifle chambered in 300 WM.
     
    Lowlight,

    Hey there, I have been watching this thread for just a bit now and have been trying to figure out my approach. I will be the first to tell you that I never claim my way Is correct, or the only way. I typically go on about my business and try to hunt for the best animal I can find on any given hunt. I do the best I can each and every show to give praise to my partners and the great products they make. Thus making my job more possible as the years go on.

    This style is a little trick I have learned to follow through my shot in effort to come back to the target after the muzzle jump. It was something I adapted to while sometimes being the only shooter next to a camera man who just cannot tell me much as he looks through a LCD screen. Basically all he can tell me is if I hit or miss, you know as well as I do sometimes that just is not good enough.

    Now I have given you my reasons and a little about myself, what I am still wondering is if there might be a way for you to see both sides to this coin? I hope there might be, if not I will go on respecting your opinion about my unorthodox method, but hope you can respect mine. In a effort to further any communications and productively come together on this, please feel free to email me directly at: [email protected]

    Take care to all of you on this thread.

    Bob Beck
    Extreme Outer Limits TV
     
    Bob,

    Thanks for the note, and for stopping by to express your point of view on the subject. I will be sure to reply via email incase you miss this.

    I understand exactly what you are doing, coming from a training background, I get it. I have seen a lot of this and when it comes to alternate positions we say, there is no wrong answer, if it works go with it. Hopefully you see my point about the fundamentals of marksmanship, and you realize this: The muzzle doesn't jump, the bullet goes straight out the barrel and recoil goes back in a straight line towards the shooter. Any deflection in the direction of travel with rifle is because of something we are doing. i.e. we are not straight or not properly managing the recoil. Understandably you have adapted to managing the recoil by apply pressure to the top of the scope in order to hold the rifle in place. Got it... have use it myself but not in the prone.

    I am not sure of your level of training, most are self taught and learn to adapt on their own. I get that too, I enlisted in the USMC when I was 17, by the end of my first year I was graduating sniper school, and for the last several years, I have been teaching marksmanship in one form or another. From that experience is where my personal pet peeve comes in. Many shooters out there learn by mimicking what they see. You have the one leg up, little green Army Man pose, you have the guys using a pack with no bipod because they saw a picture of a Marine from 1985, and you have people who will see your show and copy what they see. It creates a lot of misunderstandings out there. So it's a bit annoying for me to have to correct people or at least educate them on the fact, rifles don't hop. The answer will be, "but Bob does it and he hits his target".

    Almost every week we have a post on here about "bipod hop". When I shoot my rifle it hops they say, not understanding that is the recoil exploiting the shooter's bad position. Like your description of "muzzle jump". There is no vertical element to the recoil pulse. What happens is, the stock is not properly in the shoulder pocket, that the shooter is introducing angles and the recoil pulse is exploiting these weaknesses in form. We strive to show people how to manage recoil so you can see your shots under all conditions. Sometimes, yes that means holding the rifle down, usually when the shooter is in some type of alternate position, like a high kneeling or supported standing. So if it was a case of you shooting off a log holding the rifle down, I would have moved on past this thread. But when you see it in the prone, then you have to say there is a hole in their understanding and training. Sure, we can do many different things, guys buy bipods with claws on the feet, they attach their sling to the bipod legs and then pull back with support hand. All sorts of ways to skin the recoil management cat. Are they wrong... maybe not to everyone, but a pet peeve to me. At which point I call foul.

    I get your position, and think the show is well made, so I absolutely respect what you do. Now if I was standing next to you and saw you do that, would I correct you, darn straight I would. I have never been accused of being shy, not even in person. You're much more effective doing it right than compromising is how I see it. There are a ton of opinions out there, mine is one, yours another, so nothing personal, just pointing out what I see as a fundamental shooting issue.

    Cheers,

    Frank
    Owner - Snipers Hide
     
    And just as follow up to demonstrate my position, here is an iPhone video from a few days ago at the GAP Grind in Florida. Thanks to video we can see just how little the rifles actually move under recoil. Sure the muzzle brake helps a ton, but I notice you guys use them too, so there is no difference from that stand point. What is different here, I am shoot off concrete which most will say is very hard to control "muzzle jump" when on such a hard surface. As you can tell, properly done, the rifle does not move. FYI, the number being called out is the yard line, the last target was 800 yards away. The small shuffle with my hips is me lining up to the target in order to square my body to the shot. Rather than torque or muscle the gun, I am moving my core in line.

    <iframe src="https://www.facebook.com/video/embed?video_id=10151937007742953" width="568" height="320" frameborder="0"></iframe>

    Ya, there was a chronograph on the rifle, it was new and I needed data before the competition. I shot the rifle for the first time 2 days before the match, and needed to get rounds through as the velocity changed from 3010fps to 3100fps by the end of the second day. I didn't want that happening to me in the middle of the competition. My dope was calculated the night before based off these values.
     
    Lowlight, I must take a different stance when it comes to your position that, "There is no vertical element to the recoil pulse. " Simple physics negates your premise. Force and vectors . . . if the axial line of the bore is in a plane above the point of rear support/contact, the muzzle will rise upon firing, conversely, if the line is below, the muzzle will deflect downward. One of the reasons the olk K-98 Mause and 03-A3 Springfield are so great to shoot is that the heel of the stock is high enough to put the rear support on the butt of the stock almost on the same plane as that of the recoil of the rifle, thus giving very little muzzle rise upon firing.

    One of the reasons adjustable butt plates are made, to get the mount on the shoulder directly behind the muzzle of the rifle.
     
    @Killer Spade 13,

    maybe be you should become an instructor, teach a class, you can call it, "Bipod Hop, it's not your fault" .

    If you adjust the bipod to line the rifle up, you create a straight line. Your simple physics must not work for me because I seem to be able to demonstrate the opposite. Clearly my bipod is not leaving the ground in the video above. Your shoulder is not below the line of the bore. It's inline, especially so in alternate positions.

    A handgun has the bore above the grip, go tell Robby Leatham his muzzle is rising, so he should wait between target for it to come back down before he shoots the next one.

    I honestly don't know how many times I can demonstrate it, but clearly based on your premise, I am not subject to your laws of physics. It's why we get straight behind the rifle and eliminate angles, that including leveling the barrel in a straight line to the shoulder. Try taking a class you'd be surprised what you learn.
     
    NevadaZielmeister said:
    Love it!! Thank you Supergyro.
    Click to expand...

    I'm here all week... : )
    Thanks LL for addressing this every time someone comes out saying that bipods hop. I use to have trouble with hop, particularly on my Ar15.(where the bipod height exposes errors in shooting positions more readily IMHO) But after considering what, you've said, and giving it a shot,(it seems most have trouble swallowing their pride and trying something new) I found that I was able to keep the rifle on target through the whole recoil impulse and observe my impacts without the feet slipping, even on concrete.
    So thank you for this sight and for putting out videos that clearly demonstrate what you're teaching.
     
    Here is an old lesson from the Rifles Only days, Jacob in the video shooting a 416 weatherby as the question of hunting style rifles came up back then too.

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    It's not perfect, but the principles are the same. Certainly this is much more than shooting a 6mm or 7mm and he manages the recoil pretty well.
     
    LL, In some of your other videos I see you doing a press check on the ammo but in these videos you didn't. Is it different rifles and or different types of ammo you do that for?
     
    I press check magazines, if the rifle has been shot you don't do a press check,(Round 2, 3, 4, etc) as well with a top loader you don't do a press check. They generally don't get hung up with an internal mag.

    Once the first round is shot, you don't need to do a press check again for that mag. The AX338 above you see me shooting from the magazine and mostly the first rounds so it looks like I do a press check a lot. Just how I put the video together. I record myself, so the rifle is unloaded, I turn the camera on, load the mag, press check, shoot. After that first round there is no need to check it. The mag is feeding.

    In the GAP Grind video, I shot the 200 yard target, then the video was started, so no press check. I was already loaded and had shot a round.
     
    Lowlight said:
    @Killer Spade 13,

    maybe be you should become an instructor, teach a class, you can call it, "Bipod Hop, it's not your fault" .

    If you adjust the bipod to line the rifle up, you create a straight line. Your simple physics must not work for me because I seem to be able to demonstrate the opposite. Clearly my bipod is not leaving the ground in the video above. Your shoulder is not below the line of the bore. It's inline, especially so in alternate positions.

    A handgun has the bore above the grip, go tell Robby Leatham his muzzle is rising, so he should wait between target for it to come back down before he shoots the next one.

    I honestly don't know how many times I can demonstrate it, but clearly based on your premise, I am not subject to your laws of physics. It's why we get straight behind the rifle and eliminate angles, that including leveling the barrel in a straight line to the shoulder. Try taking a class you'd be surprised what you learn.
    Click to expand...


    LL, just a question re your comment on Rob Leatham's pistol shooting, it seems that he as well as Brian Enos as well as other world class pistol shooters Do in fact wait for their sights to settle back on target after the recoil pulse, they "see the sights lift" and return to POI, then they fire again, they just do it very fast and very accurately through many hours of practice and a Lot better than 'normal' people can.
    Please see the below quote from Brian Enos in ref to seeing sights lift, as in the recoil from the shot fired making the pistol in recoil rise Up, which if I read your post correct, you seem to say does not happen if one is gripping the pistol correctly? I think perhaps shooting a pistol is not like shooting a rifle in this regard, or am I missing something? jmho

    "It's pretty much impossible, when firing an aimed shot, to see the front sight throughout it's entire movement.
    It goes WAY higher than you see it. But that doesn't matter because you only need to see the front sight at the moment it begins it's upward travel to call the shot.
    Then if you didn't hack at the trigger too hard, and your grip and upper body position are dead-nuts neutral, the sight will naturally return to right where it left from.
    And you'll see it retuning into the notch for about the same distance of travel as you saw it when it lifted.
    It's like you just see it bobbing up and down out there.
    That's all you need to see.
    If you want to see how high the front sight really goes, hold your gun lower, about out at chest level, and trigger a few shots at the backstop."
    be
     
    The slide is moving, of course they have to wait for it to move back into battery but it's not rising as much as sliding in a straight line. Proper grip is the main difference between a pop up with the muzzle vs just waiting for the slide to move back into battery. Muzzle jump is not as pronounced when doing it right. Watch the slow motion video on YouTube and you'll instantly see the difference.
     
    Lowlight said:
    The slide is moving, of course they have to wait for it to move back into battery but it's not rising as much as sliding in a straight line. Proper grip is the main difference between a pop up with the muzzle vs just waiting for the slide to move back into battery. Muzzle jump is not as pronounced when doing it right. Watch the slow motion video on YouTube and you'll instantly see the difference.
    Click to expand...

    Well Yes assuming we're only talking about shooting a semi auto pistol but a relvolver? Hmm intresting. Yes the slide is on a rail and does slide back & forth on a straight line in that sense as it cannot do anything else,
    But the rear of the Barrel Drops down in relation to the muzzle and the front sight rises significantly as Brian indicates, "It goes WAY higher than you see it", of course training, practice, and a Firm grip will help negate but not eliminate, the fact that the front sight will rise with recoil as you state "Muzzle jump is not as pronounced when doing it right" but it does jump Up, and the shooter has to return it to poi
     
    It's apples and oranges and used to demonstrate the difference between doing it right and doing it wrong. It doesn't go up "way" higher, watch the videos and stop trying to translate his description into your perception of the action.

    Watch an amateur vs a pro and it's clear. A handgun is the worst example because there is nothing behind the barrel to absorb the recoil, it can't but create a rising motion. It's acting against the hand which is below. A rifle is not the same, engage your brain and stop trying to cherry pick the words.

    Clearly within 1 minute I show you above my bipod legs never leave the ground. No "jump" if you're not smart enough to see and understand that, you're a lost cause.

    Pros aren't being defeated by the idea of muzzle jump, they control the recoil and it's easy to see on video when someone does it right vs wrong. Technique makes all the difference, with a rifle or handgun.
     
    Excellent video watch the muzzle jump as Mickey Fowler shoots the revolver at about 9:05, I didn't say anything about your rifle shooting, take a second to read what I did say, "shooting a pistol is not like shooting a rifle in this regard" you're the one that used Rob shooting a pistol as an example, and he's a professional shooter who has worked for years to perfect his pistol shooting technique ie controlling muzzle rise
     
    Muzzle rise in pistol is due to the line of the bore being above and not directly inline with the forearms.

    Recoil tourqes the skin in the hands and the wrist joints. Which allows the pistol to rotate upwards.

    A neutral grip allows it to return to the original position for a quick, aimed, follow up shot.


    It's an imperfect situation which is what your trying to do away with by getting straight behind a rifle so te rifle recoils directly back into your body
     
    Weird rifle grip

    rrflyer said:
    Muzzle rise in pistol is due to the line of the bore being above and not directly inline with the forearms.

    Recoil tourqes the skin in the hands and the wrist joints. Which allows the pistol to rotate upwards.

    A neutral grip allows it to return to the original position for a quick, aimed, follow up shot.

    It's an imperfect situation which is what your trying to do away with by getting straight behind a rifle so te rifle recoils directly back into your body
    Click to expand...
    Muzzle flip is chiefly due to the grip tension being below the line of bore. But you can get straight behind a pistol, too.
     
    Graham said:
    Muzzle flip is chiefly due to the grip tension being below the line of bore. But you can get straight behind a pistol, too.
    Click to expand...

    What traditional pistol forms put the line of the muzzle inline with the forearm?

    A wrist pistol would do it but that's hardly a standard handgun setup.
     
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    Graham said:
    If you point it downrange the muzzle is always in line with the forearm.
    Click to expand...

    No it's not. The bore is parallel to but above the centerline on the forearm. Unless you've got some offset hands:

    That's because the grip itself is below the bore. This gives the pistol a pivot point and causes some muzzle flip. We try and use a high grip to reduce this offset as much as possible.
     
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    Lowlight said:
    And that says ?

    I'm 5'2" and weigh 130, here i am with a 20" 338 not using an over the scope grip able to spot everyone of my shots, never needing an spotter. Let me see what the recoil on a 20" 338 looks like with the little miss using her grip ?

    .
    Click to expand...

    jebus man... i knew you altitude challenged, by some of the pics i saw but damn... :)
     
    Weird rifle grip

    rrflyer said:
    No.... That's because the grip itself is below the bore. This gives the pistol a pivot point and causes some muzzle flip. We try and use a high grip to reduce this offset as much as possible.
    Click to expand...
    Perhaps have another look at what I said.
     
    You guys are getting into the weeds, it's clear (at least I thought it would be) that there is a definitive difference between doing something right vs doing it wrong. And wrong in this case is tiny, it's not completely wrong, it's just less than right.

    The handgun part is to show, a bit broader that you can physically see the wrong way

    Randi-2sm_zps40a1984e.jpg


    With your muzzle lift and sights moving "way" out of the way vs doing it right

    Sevigny_2008Area2_Sued_Small.jpg


    And I am not saying Randi Rodgers is wrong, just that technique can be the difference between your muzzle up and compromising your sight picture, vs someone who can maintain their sight picture through the entire firing sequence.

    Handguns are clearly the hardest of all because to design against our hands, but at the same time people are getting faster each week through the mastering of recoil management. Once you learn to master recoil management you open up a lot more possibilities.

    Then again, I was assuming people understood we were talking about recoil management. Instead it's pretty clear people are not too educated on the topic. Handgun, carbine, precision rifle, seems they are all happy to find an excuse why they can't do it.
     
    Weird rifle grip

    Recoil management is indeed different between pistol and rifle, partly because a pistol does not have a shoulder stock. In police work we call this a 'clue'.

    But the fact that the barrel is above the web of your shooting hand instead of below it a fact, not a consequence.

    Proper recoil management, which permits one to see the front sight during recoil and not lose track of it, has more to do with the grip than it does in rifle shooting.

    Then again, what do I know? I was only at the top level of IPSC competition for eight years.
     
    Lowlight said:
    You guys are getting into the weeds, it's clear (at least I thought it would be) that there is a definitive difference between doing something right vs doing it wrong. And wrong in this case is tiny, it's not completely wrong, it's just less than right.

    The handgun part is to show, a bit broader that you can physically see the wrong way

    Randi-2sm_zps40a1984e.jpg


    With your muzzle lift and sights moving "way" out of the way vs doing it right

    Sevigny_2008Area2_Sued_Small.jpg


    And I am not saying Randi Rodgers is wrong, just that technique can be the difference between your muzzle up and compromising your sight picture, vs someone who can maintain their sight picture through the entire firing sequence.

    Handguns are clearly the hardest of all because to design against our hands, but at the same time people are getting faster each week through the mastering of recoil management. Once you learn to master recoil management you open up a lot more possibilities.

    Then again, I was assuming people understood we were talking about recoil management. Instead it's pretty clear people are not too educated on the topic. Handgun, carbine, precision rifle, seems they are all happy to find an excuse why they can't do it.
    Click to expand...


    Different people have the ability to control a firearm better. Usually a male will be able to control recoil, especially on a handgun, better than a female.

    The statement was made that the muzzle doesn't rise on a pistol. It does. I was a Master Class USPSA single stack shooter for a long time and am able to track sights through the recoil. I shoot mainly production now and its infinately easier on a glock 34 in 9mm as opposed to a 1911 in 45 or even a revolver.

    To try and hold a pistol tight enough to stop all muzzle rise, especially on bigger caliber handguns, is gonna mean your so tense your not gonna be able to do much else in the way of trigger manipulation etc...


    I agree that a shot alone has no distinct vertical vector. But the mechanics of how we hold the weapon can induce them. With a rifle we have an opportunity to put our bodys inline, when that shooting position allows it, and allow the rifle to recoil straight back into our body.

    With a carbine we can square up to it and do something similiar.

    With a pistol we dont have that and the pivot point on the gun is at the hand, the muzzle is going to rise. Yes we use a high/thumbsforward grip to reduce it as much as possible. Denying it happens doesn't aid anyone in learning how to manage it. Understanding why it happens and what to look for can.
     
    Again,

    You completely miss the point...

    The vertical element is because of US and not the gun... yes the design of a pistol makes it no other way, but clearly it can be "managed" ... I never said "eliminated" when it comes to a pistol.

    I never once said it doesn't happen. And I am 100% clear why it does. It was just an example to say, people think they "can't manage" it, when that false.

    You guys just want to contradict nothing more,
     
    I made one comment...

    A handgun has the bore above the grip, go tell Robby Leatham his muzzle is rising, so he should wait between target for it to come back down before he shoots the next one.
    Click to expand...

    I never made a broad accusation or anything beyond saying Leatham's muzzle is not rising and I have yet to see it rise. Clearly some people have managed it... better than well.
     
    Lowlight said:
    Again,

    You completely miss the point...

    The vertical element is because of US and not the gun... yes the design of a pistol makes it no other way, but clearly it can be "managed" ... I never said "eliminated" when it comes to a pistol.

    I never once said it doesn't happen. And I am 100% clear why it does. It was just an example to say, people think they "can't manage" it, when that false.

    You guys just want to contradict nothing more,
    Click to expand...

    I didn't say you said it could be eliminated. But you did mention that it was mainly due to slide movement. My point was that there was to be some vertical from recoil just becuase of the way we interact with a handgun, even with proper technique. This is more pronounced in revolvers than semi-autos.

    Other than that we are arguing the same point, obviously if the muzzle is "flipping" as opposed to "rising" somethings wrong. You comment about the muzzle going "way up" I agree with.



    FWIW

    Here's Rob Leatham showing a 1911 in 45 vs 9mm and stating the 9mm has a lot less recoil and "muzzle flip"
    http://youtu.be/Ewfck749gb8
     
    Last edited:
    I used to think that bipod hop was normal until just a few years ago. I posted this video about a year ago and someone pointed out no bipod hop, so I have used it to prove that it does not exist. She was 4 at this time. My belief is that dead weight behind the gun is dead weight behind the gun. Gun was not tied down anywhere and was shot off the bipod with a rear bag. We were shooting at a 21" target at 1084 yards, while she did not hit it, she scared the crap out of it. I have another video of her with an ar from the front which shows that it is not there.
     
    Weird rifle grip

    rrflyer said:
    Here's Rob Leatham showing a 1911 in 45 vs 9mm and stating the 9mm has a lot less recoil and "muzzle flip"
    http://youtu.be/Ewfck749gb8
    Click to expand...
    I am going to disagree about the muzzle flip part: The 9mm does have less recoil; but without a brake the 9mm has an inherently less controllable muzzle flip. That said, with proper technique and pinching higher on the frame the 9mm is easier to control because it shoots lighter bullets.
     
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