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Rifle not holding a good zero @ 100 yrds

T

Trey

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Minuteman
Dec 12, 2013
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I went to the range over this last weekend (both days), Saturday I took my time and did what I thought would be a cold bore zero. I would wait at least 5 min between shots to get my zero, after about 10 rnds I was on point and I put my rifle away. On Sunday I went back out to shoot a lil more and the zero was at least .5 to .75 off, I had place 3 rnds in the same spot, double checked to make sure everything was tight and re-zeroed again...went home for about 2 hrs then back to the range and again the zero was off. I am thinking that it is most likely user error but I am not 100% sure that it is all me.

Any thoughts or advice would be helpful.

Rifle is a Savage 10-fcpk .308
Weaver base and rings
Vortex 4-16X50
 
You will first need to be able to build a consistent position before you'll be able to discern a zero from any rifle/environment/condition/relationship. Then, you will be able to notice the effects of cold, clean, temp, or whatever.
 
First, like Sterling said, you'll need to be consistent in the way you get behind the rifle. It doesn't take much of a change in grip, trigger squeeze etc to change POI. Just getting your head behind the scope the same each time can make that much difference. Next a small wind change can change POI that much. And we all start with the equipment that we can afford. There's no shame in that but moving up to better rings can help too.
 
Try having a different (good) shooter try it as well. Sometimes when I'm not shooting well or something seems to be off, I assume it is me first before I start fiddling with equipment. If a different shooter is getting similar results, then start investigating equipment.

If a different competent shooter is getting the same issues, then answer these questions:
1. Are the base and rings torqued to the correct spec?
2. Is the stock torqued to the correct spec?
3. Ammo - factory or reloads? How good is the quality of the ammo? Try a different batch of match ammo.
4. Where the weather conditions significantly different from early session to later one?

I would suspect rings & base first. But if you've had consistent luck with them before - its unlikely they would suddenly fail unless they just loosened up. If all the above has been eliminated as OK, then it might be time to suspect the scope. Shoot a box test and make sure its tracking correctly and returning to zero. Run the El and windage knobs all the way to the limits and back. Maybe a spring got stuck or something.

If the scope / rifle is still not working together correctly, put the scope on a different rifle and try it. Then try a different scope on the same rifle. Its a process of elimination to nail down the issue. Start with the shooter.
 
Thank you for the input I will work on my end first...
 
If the rounds are going in the same hole just about but every time they are in a new spot, sounds like cheek weld and/or body position. You sight picture through the scope could be changing from shitty cheek weld. Get a stock pack and make sure your sight picture is good every time.

Work on your front lol. That's funny graham.
 
i vote for a mix of all the advise. i have had every thing come loose on a rifle sooner or later so i usually just retorque all the screws; action, rings, base etc. what i have also found is because most of the time i am shooting prone, if i get stuck with friends on a bench i noticed that my POI is almost 3/4" off to 7:00. all due to the cheek, eye, scope relationship. there are a lot of lenses in scopes so if your parallax is off just a little and you position is not VERY consistent these little differences will drive you crazy chasing a zero.

good luck
 
Sterling Shooter said:
You will first need to be able to build a consistent position before you'll be able to discern a zero from any rifle/environment/condition/relationship. Then, you will be able to notice the effects of cold, clean, temp, or whatever.
Click to expand...

^^^^^
Especially the part about cold. If you shoot on a fairly warm day you may be wearing thinner clothing than on a bone chilling cold day. Different thickness of clothing on your shoulder can change POI.

If you want your rifle to shoot the same as it did several days ago then EVEYTHING that existed then has to exist NOW. Overlook the smallest item and you'll have change. But then again, that's why scopes are adjustable :)
 
Rifle not holding a good zero @ 100 yrds

Deadshot2 said:
Especially the part about cold. If you shoot on a fairly warm day you may be wearing thinner clothing than on a bone chilling cold day. Different thickness of clothing on your shoulder can change POI.

If you want your rifle to shoot the same as it did several days ago then EVEYTHING that existed then has to exist NOW. Overlook the smallest item and you'll have change.
Click to expand...
Please... Not that old canard again.

Granted: it's based on a germ of truth, but without knowing the WHY people simply repeat what they heard. You don't have to recreate the wardrobe you used when you zeroed, and you don't have to re-zero when you put on a jacket.

C'mon people: Think, then post.
 
i'm kind of with Gramam, the whole world doesn't have to be the same (would be a hell of a lot easier if it were..wind included). but that is why we have DOPE books and such, take it to the range and actually write down what the wind was doing, temp, humidity, bar, sunny, cloudy, and any other environmental you can think of. you might just figure that when you wear your favorite range jacket it shifts you POI the same every time (or the one the wife doesn't yell at you for wearing..LOL). if i wear a t shirt in the summer and a thick jacket in the winter i know things will be different.
 
Rifle not holding a good zero @ 100 yrds

brianf said:
if i wear a t shirt in the summer and a thick jacket in the winter i know things will be different.
Click to expand...
Does anyone here want to get off the Internet and try it?

One round wearing a T shirt, followed by one round wearing a winter jacket, followed by one round with the stock folded (thereby not using the stock at all). Use the same scope image, with the head located at the same place behind the eyebox each time.

I'd post my target, but people accuse me of showing off when I post ragged hole groups.
 
if i get to the range this weekend i will give it a try. if i have time (and wife lets me out) i will do some positional shooting as well.
 
The point is, SAME EYE LOCATION.

All those other things affect how you hold the rilfe and place your head. So they can lead to a change in eye position.

But if you get the eye position right, the rifle will shoot the same.
 
I know this is going to sound real dumb but here it is...are there any training aids to help with cheek weld placement or any tips that have worked for ya'll? I live in Houston and the weather has been fair with a very low/no breeze. I can see what ya'll are saying about repetitive placement. Also I don't get the joke about working on my front....
 
Trey said:
I know this is going to sound real dumb but here it is...are there any training aids to help with cheek weld placement or any tips that have worked for ya'll? I live in Houston and the weather has been fair with a very low/no breeze. I can see what ya'll are saying about repetitive placement. Also I don't get the joke about working on my front....
Click to expand...


Mark your cheek rest if felt tape or something to get into the habbit of repetitive placement.
 
Trey said:
I know this is going to sound real dumb but here it is...are there any training aids to help with cheek weld placement or any tips that have worked for ya'll?
Click to expand...



when I was in the Service our trainers gave us a tip that worked well for me. During dry fire exercises place your finger on the trigger and establish your grip. Hold your thumb back and touch the front edge of your cheek. This is kind of a built in gauge to tell you whether you are in the same place fore and aft. Adjust as needed but use the thumb as a "measure". You will also find a place where your cheek bone will want to sit every time. Faces are all different as are thumbs but eventually you will gain a "feel" when you have the right position. Might have to adjust the cheek piece (if you have one) or add some foam rubber/tape on the comb to give your cheek a higher position. For a nice smooth feel, tape down some carpet pad foam then cover with Dr Scholl's "Moleskin". The stuff you add to the inside of boots and shoes to stop blisters.
 
Rifle not holding a good zero @ 100 yrds

Deadshot2 said:
when I was in the Service our trainers gave us a tip that worked well for me. During dry fire exercises place your finger on the trigger and establish your grip. Hold your thumb back and touch the front edge of your cheek. This is kind of a built in gauge to tell you whether you are in the same place fore and aft. Adjust as needed but use the thumb as a "measure". You will also find a place where your cheek bone will want to sit every time. Faces are all different as are thumbs....
Click to expand...
That might work for service rifle with irons. Might. But not only won't it work with a modern scoped rifle, it's not a proper way to establish a cheek weld. In fact, it's probably a bad idea because it encourages students to crawl the stock.
 
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My scope is kinda picky about head position, especially at its full 21 power. I tend to crawl the stock and then pull my head back to where I am just getting that sweet full circle in the eyepiece. When I mounted the scope I did so in such a way that with my head firmly but not pushing on the cheek rest and my neck relaxed, gun pulled lightly into my shoulder, I was pretty much at the center of the eyebox of the scope. Made it an easy and quick check. I am just now getting to the point where at least a few bullets in every group are POI=POA within the diameter of one bullet. 6.5 CM. I still have lots of work to do on trigger squeeze and breathing. I cannot detect any perceptible pause at the bottom of the breathing cycle. Something about 1 pack or more a day for the last 55 years or so. I need the air now and it tends to make me rush the trigger pull (read the aforesaid as jerking the trigger). I'm getting there and compensating better and better.

I tell you what, I knew going in that this hobby would take time to acquire skills, just hadn't anticipated the degree of concentration required in the early phases when nothing is coming automatically and you have to focus on each and every stage from building position to releasing the shot and then getting good follow through. I can feel it coming together, I'm going to have to shoot more often though as it is taking me too long to get back into the groove, or, in my case, a shallow scratch. :)
 
Trey said:
I know this is going to sound real dumb but here it is...are there any training aids to help with cheek weld placement or any tips that have worked for ya'll? I live in Houston and the weather has been fair with a very low/no breeze. I can see what ya'll are saying about repetitive placement. Also I don't get the joke about working on my front....
Click to expand...

If you looking for training tools there is only one, and free. Get you self some snap caps and Dry fire. there is no substitute for actual time on the actual firearm. get yourself in a quiet room, turn off all distractions (kids, TV, radio) and pay attention to breathing, trigger pressure, cheek placement, where the stock is on your shoulder, trigger hand placement, trigger elbow placement and just about every other part of your body you can think of.

make sure your NPA (natural point of aim) is consistent, one quick check is to get behind the rifle relax then close your eyes for a good 30 seconds. if you crosshairs are on a different spot then when you "went to sleep" your first issue is you are fighting the rifle to the target. once you get your natural point of aim squared away then we can start double checking the rest of it. once you get NPA down (maybe with some adjustments to the stock, length of pull etc.), you should be able to crawl up behind the rifle eyes closed and when you open them you are looking at a clean sight picture. if yo are still moving your head around like a chicken, get back down and keep practicing. start off with a routing like 10 min every other night.

this was taught to me at one of the first schools i went to. and let me tell you this man was a machine, he was so smooth and relaxed behind the rifle i used to joke if he was dead or not. oh by the way he would routinely take our rifles and embarrass us.
 
For bullet impact and point of aim to be the same , that's to say, for the resulting value by any measurement to be zero, then by some means, the shooter's relationship between gun and ground needs to produce identical recoil resistance shot to shot. To get identical recoil resistance from shot to shot, so as to create an identical angle and arc between line of bore at rest and line of bore at bullet exit from shot to shot, which is what it's really all about, every element, factor, and component of the shooter's position, ammunition and equipment/clothing must be consistent from shot to shot. It can be no other way, or a grouping of bullets instead of all bullets going in the same hole will be the result. This physics demands that the competitive shooter maintain a score book, recording all conditions at the time of the shot to come to know every crevice where consistency is challenged. The bottom line is that any physical change in the shooter's relationship with gun and ground, in addition to wind and weather, velocity, or whatever, will preclude the realization of anything better than a grouping of shots with a theoretical zero, even when aim is steady. BTW, a good start to consistency is learning how to build a steady position with bone alone, and I don't mean with sling, just bone alone. With bone alone a shooter will easily recognize when the natural point of aim has been adjusted properly for a foundation which can benefit from consistency consciousness.
 
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Rifle not holding a good zero @ 100 yrds

Sterling Shooter said:
For bullet impact and point of aim to be the same , that's to say, for the resulting value by any measurement to be zero, then by some means, the shooter's relationship between gun and ground needs to produce identical recoil resistance shot to shot. To get identical recoil resistance from shot to shot, so as to create an identical angle and arc between line of bore at rest and line of bore at bullet exit from shot to shot, which is what it's really all about, every element, factor, and component of the shooter's position, ammunition and equipment/clothing must be consistent from shot to shot. It can be no other way, or a grouping of bullets instead of all bullets going in the same hole will be the result. This physics demands that the competitive shooter maintain a score book recording all conditions at the time of the shot as well as an understanding of the effect of changing conditions on ballistics. The bottom line is that any physical change in the shooter's relationship with gun and ground, wind and weather, velocity, or whatever, will preclude the realization of anything better than a grouping of shots with a theoretical zero, even when aim is steady.
Click to expand...
You're mixing and muddling many concepts here: Harmonics; marksmanship fundamentals; environmentals; POI/POA relationship theory; human factors in recoil resistance; shot-calling; shot-logging; the recording of environmental factors; and theoretical zero.

First of all, nobody shoots same hole and that's never the goal - not in NRA across-the-course competition and not in any practical application of precision rifle shooting.

Second, consistent recoil resistance as it relates to placing an accurate shot on target is about shooter/rifle, not gun/ground. It's more about the fundamentals from the waist up than it is about positional indexing and trading on one's NPA. That is, unless you are shooting only one specific discipline, in which case consistency is all about the sport-shooter's ability to replicate a single ideal shooting position required for an identical string of fire.

Third, equipment and clothing do not have to be consistent, or more specifically should not have to be consistent in order to achieve POA/POI. The 'same clothing/same jacket' argument is an old canard about establishing a zero which is based on only a single germ of truth. There should be no need to re-zero your rifle when you change your underwear. If you have to do that it's not an equipment issue, it's that you need to be more versatile and your shooting skills need to be more rounded.

Fourth, physics does not demand that a shooter maintain a score book. Score books in competitive shooting are used as a leaning tool for human factors. In contrast, environmentals are logged in order to keep track of equipment performance (not shooter performance). Big difference in both purpose and application.
 
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Once again you show your ignorance about what is important to good shooting, beginning with the purpose of a position, which is to transfer the stability of the ground into it. You simply have not yet learned what is important. Oh, a score book is BTW essential to a COMPETITIVE shooter, but of course how would you know that.
 
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calm down guys, Sterling and graham, it seems that both you guys have some shooting experience and from your posts you both have a really good grasp on what it takes. just remember this was started by Trey, who was having trouble with a wandering zero day to day so maybe we can continue to help him instead of getting into it ourselves. I have been know to loose the filter between my brain and mouth more than once...just ask my friends...what's left of them, LOL.

now, i of course wish that only useful info could be found on the internet (or people would debunk the dumb stuff) but i have yet to hear a stupid idea on THIS post yet. lets all stay friends, this post was going well.
 
Trey, the way I read your post you were " on point after about 10 rounds". And it seemed that each time you arrived your zero was off. .5 to .75 off from a fouled, warm barrel is not that unusual. what you described is fundimentally " the cold bore shot". A lot of rifles will do the same thing, even some of the custom, high end ones. If your rifle does this time after time, then you have to decide how you want it zeroed; either for a cold bore shot, or zeroed for all subsequent rounds, as would be needed in matches, etc. All this talk about clothing and positioning (imho) is not what your problem is. It's that you have a rifle that has a different cold bore zero than a warmed up zero. Most of us do!!! It's hard to have both at the same time. That's why they call it "cold bore shot". You may well have some work to do on your position,etc. But I think the above mentioned is what's occurring.
 
you could be 100% correct i thought the 5 min between shots would let if cool down enough. maybe not. it was the 3 rounds in the same spot that had me veer away from cold bore and "clean" cold bore. it doesn't seem like he is throwing the first shot (CCB will do that) and then grouping just group to group on different days is the issue.
as much as it drives me nuts that is why i love shooting, so many variables to play with.
 
Reading through all of this, I'm unable to avoid shaking my head.

Shooting to a new zero that's off by under an inch on a different day is about par for the course. Demanding smaller is the point where I consider precision shooting to be making the departure toward become obsessive shooting.

It's supposed to be fun, folks. When we obsess to the point where such deviations become mind-wracking, we need to take a step back and re-examine our goals.

A) That formerly live target at 100yd is not going to take exception that the bullet that just wrecked its day was off by .75".

B) The point is to defeat the target, not refine our accuracy down to where it needs to be measured in Angstroms.

If that is your need, you will find more of what you want on a bench rest site.

Nothing against BR folks, but I ain't one.

Greg
 
Guys thanks for all the advice and knowledge that is given here....I am new to precision shooting and I do have a lot to learn. So what do ya'll think is a good amount of time between shots to try and keep a cold bore zero and should I set my zero stops there and then mark the difference as my barrel warms up? Also where could I find a log book while I save up to get a SH log book?
 
Rifle not holding a good zero @ 100 yrds

Sterling Shooter said:
Once again you show your ignorance about what is important to good shooting, beginning with the purpose of a position, which is to transfer the stability of the ground into it. You simply have not yet learned what is important. Oh, a score book is BTW essential to a COMPETITIVE shooter, but of course how would you know that.
Click to expand...
That sounds a lot like a personal attack.

Some people, in order to learn something themselves, have to pretend that they are teaching it to others.

You already have a standing offer from Frank to shoot the Snipers Hide Cup. I'll go one better: Come to Rifles Only and shoot the Bushnell Brawl. If you score higher than me I'll pay your entry fee.
 
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Trey said:
Guys thanks for all the advice and knowledge that is given here....I am new to precision shooting and I do have a lot to learn. So what do ya'll think is a good amount of time between shots to try and keep a cold bore zero and should I set my zero stops there and then mark the difference as my barrel warms up? Also where could I find a log book while I save up to get a SH log book?
Click to expand...

For me, precision shooting has never been about sniping, and really, I don't have a lot of use for cold bore shots. My shooting is purely recreational, and while some can recreate with a score book, I can be just as happy without one.

I think specialization is for insects and that an accomplished marksman's skills should not be dependent on a particular rifle or a particular course of fire. I think that a good marksman is well rounded, and that the accuracy basics are best learned in a manner that makes them applicable regardless of the firearm in current use. An accomplished marksman should be able to apply the basics to any rife and attain that rifle's accuracy potential, or alternatively, be able to identify why that rifle isn't performing to its potential. These are not skills that can be attained from only employing the perfect implements. These are not skills that need be accompanied by only the perfect implement in order for them to be valid.

It's case of so many rifles, and so little time for me.

Greg
 
Trey said:
Guys thanks for all the advice and knowledge that is given here....I am new to precision shooting and I do have a lot to learn. So what do ya'll think is a good amount of time between shots to try and keep a cold bore zero and should I set my zero stops there and then mark the difference as my barrel warms up? Also where could I find a log book while I save up to get a SH log book?
Click to expand...
Try the links in this old thread. I believe that some of them are still active. Read the whole thread first and then click on a few of the links. There's enough to get you started until you get your Impact Data Book.

http://www.snipershide.com/shooting...anship/712-printable-data-forms-log-book.html
 
The whole issue sounded less shooter and more stock to me....it sounds like a bedding problem or the fore end touching the barrel. ...but it was fun reading the pontifications of the elite
 
I was reading Heinlein in High School. I graduated in 1964. He provided a significant part of my values system.

Greg
 
thanks for the link for the temp data book pages

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I had to look him up....The schools that I went too never taught or used any of his works

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When I discussed Stranger in a Strange Land with the School Librarian during Senior Year, she informed me it was 'on the restricted list'. I was on the Library Staff and I suspect that was the only thing saving me from being reported for disciplinary system.

Greg
 
Interesting....

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Back on topic, the symptoms presented indicate that something has changed between sessions. That's vague, so I'll suggest it has something to do with ergonomics and cheekweld.

The first area I'd verify is LOP, since it has the most influence on cheekweld. If it's wrong, I think the odds are highest that the cheekweld will be a lot less consistent than it could be with a properly matched LOP.

I'm tall, and I think the generic average LOP is too short. I can get by with an additional 1" and do best with 2". My custom rifle has a McMillan A3 with the spacer buttpad, LOP set at 16 1/2".

The next area I'd check would be cheek rest height. Get behind the rifle and get snugged up and comfortable on the stock with your aiming eye closed. Once you're settled, open the eye. If you need to shift anything in your position to get a good sight picture, there's very likely an issue with the cheek rest's vertical (and/or horizontal) positioning My McMillan A3 has the cutout style cheek rest, with approximately 3/8" rise adjustment, and the sideways adjustment set full over to the right. I prefer the cutout style over the saddle style, since the former also allows about 1/2" of side-to-side adjustment.

This is where the adjustable cheek rest helps me, because the right height for me is also too high to permit removing the bolt for cleaning.

Greg
 
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Dang, Greg! You'er almost as old as I am. I'm an old fart....you must be an old poot!!
 
Right on....I will do that tonight when I get off work....

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Trey said:
thanks for the link for the temp data book pages

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Click to expand...
You are welcome. There is some great info in that thread and I knew that it wouldn't hurt if at least one other person saw it and got some use out of it.

That shows how searching here using the advanced search can sometimes dig up a few gems. There is more good and useful information hidden here in plain sight among-st the other drivel, pontification and outright cat-fights than a person could ever hope to learn. It's the finding that's the fun and challenge.
 
Well 40xs, since I was a Marine Corps Engineer, I'm imagining we both went through the Courthouse Bay Naval Engineering schools. Guessing you got to 'Nam, and were stationed in I Corps. You might have even met me, both Seabees and my 11th Engineer Bn. worked a lot of projects together, like establishing power pole lines in/around Dong Ha and Camp Carroll.

Greg
 
Got out a little too early to go with my unit, but it was with MCB 58 at Danang, which relieved MCB 1.
 
This is at 100 once I zero in

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The center was first few shots then dialed the wrong way

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This is my rifle

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