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Gunsmithing Lathe Decision

D

deadly0311

Tacticool Ninja
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Minuteman
Mar 2, 2009
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Birmingham, AL
Between these 3 lathes which would you choose and why?

Grizzly G0709, Sharps 1340VS, Lagun 1340?

I realize these are all Taiwanese made machines. After looking around at "MSRP" prices I fail to see the differences in the machines really. The Grizzly is well under 10k, the Sharps is about 12 with a 4 jaw, the Lagun was quoted to me at around 16k. I not above paying for quality, but when I cannot see it or understand why I am a bit hesitant.

I am wanting to build my own rifles, but am a little lost as most know Birmingham AL doesnt have many places that I can go get hands on with these machines.

The upside of the Grizzly is that it comes with some add ons, 4 jaw, live centers, dead centers, and such where the other 2 dont come with anything like that. Some of you more experienced machinists please weigh in.
 
deadly0311 said:
Between these 3 lathes which would you choose and why?

Grizzly G0709, Sharps 1340VS, Lagun 1340?

I realize these are all Taiwanese made machines. After looking around at "MSRP" prices I fail to see the differences in the machines really. The Grizzly is well under 10k, the Sharps is about 12 with a 4 jaw, the Lagun was quoted to me at around 16k. I not above paying for quality, but when I cannot see it or understand why I am a bit hesitant.

I am wanting to build my own rifles, but am a little lost as most know Birmingham AL doesnt have many places that I can go get hands on with these machines.

The upside of the Grizzly is that it comes with some add ons, 4 jaw, live centers, dead centers, and such where the other 2 dont come with anything like that. Some of you more experienced machinists please weigh in.
Click to expand...

Any reason you aren't considering a used machine?
 
I am considering used. I'm looking at a few Sharps and a couple older Clausings. Jut curious what the differences in those 3 listed are.
 
Well I have had the G0709 for 2 years and am well pleased with it, does all I need to make my rifles. The add ones are why I got it. I use it to do all kinds of machining, the size is just right for what I do and its the smallest that I would go. I'm a Retired Machinist that ran CNC Mills 20x40-30 tools and programed lots of different parts, man I sure miss all that a CNC can do. The up side is I can go and use any machine that isn't being used if I need to.
 
Check out the SunMaster ERL-1340 . Matt at Precision machine tools can save you a pile of money on a very good quality brand new lathe. Nothing wrong with the better stuff out of Taiwan. I believe Sun Master makes the same lathe such as the Kent TRL-1340, American Turn Master AT-1340-G-TW, South Bend SB1050 Heavy 13. The specs are all remarkably similar. The South Bend does have a D1-5 back plate rather than the more common D1-4 of the other machines.

I sure like mine.
 
My friend is a retired master tool and die maker (42yrs) and has a Hardinge Super Precision lathe in his garage/hobby shop and says they are the best out there accurate to 30mil. of an inch. I'm not in the field but I trust his judgement especally when it comes to tools. I see they can be had used alot cheeper then buying new.

Dave
 
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I have 3 lathes jet/southbend/clausing and I think the 10"southbend is the best lathe for gunsmithing built.
 
its not even fair to lump a hardinge into a discussion with a bunch of imports.....that is lambo's to kia's. the 13x40 class of imports works well. i have a pm 1440bv with a 2" bore and vairiable speed....I love it. I also had a hardinge, the PM sure as hell aint no hardinge.

if you can find a hardinge that is tight for a price even close to a import......jump on it.
 
Over the last twenty years the vocational trade schools have been dumping their manual lathes and moving into CNC Lathes and Mills. This has resulted in many serviceable machines coming on the market through the California and East Coast Machinery Sales outlets and on eBay.

A 1 5/8 inch spindle hole allows all but the largest barrel work to be performed using shop made four screw chucks, with brass contact pads, on the front and rear of the spindle.

Dial indicating the bore center on both ends with the use of light interference fit aluminum or brass spuds of the appropriate caliber/diameter is a standard practice.

Most lathes offered are 3 or 4 foot beds and 10 through 14 swing. Prices range from 1 to 3 thousand.

I have owned one of the "Chinese Abominations" and do not recommend any of them to any one.
 
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I`ve made a living for over 40 yrs. machining.Including 4 yrs. in the US Navy....If it were me with that kinda money to spend I would look for a South Bend heavy 1" lathe with 48" ways.With that money you`ll get a better machine and alot more tooling.
 
A South Bend Heavy 10, if you can find one, is the answer to your best dreams.
 
Here she is on the day she arrived.





And now a couple years later. This was taken a couple days ago to show the flush system.



The craftsmanship is just as nice inside as out. I wanted one I wouldn't ever regret or be wanting to upgrade soon. To date I have yet to see a lathe I like better than this one for what we do.
 
I've played with the Sharp you were thinking about and it is indeed nice but it was over 10G's if my memory serves me right and didn't come with some extras.
 
datec said:
My friend is a retired master tool and die maker (42yrs) and has a Hardinge Super Precision lathe in his garage/hobby shop and says they are the best out there accurate to 30mil. of an inch. I'm not in the field but I trust his judgement especally when it comes to tools. I see they can be had used alot cheeper then buying new.

Dave
Click to expand...

I've spent a lot of time on a Hardinge over the years and you cannot get a more precise lathes bar none. Normal accuracy to .0001" all day, every day.
 
First off, the Grizz G0709 isn't made in Taiwan - it's Chinese. Lathes made in Taiwan will generally be priced considerably higher than the Chinese machines. I'm not saying that the Chinese machines are junk - my Jet GH-1340W & PM 1440HD lathes are both Chinese machines, and both are serviceable lathes. They're both oil leaking bastards, too, and that's after I've chased the leaks and attempted to stop them with silicone seal & new 'O'-rings. Mine are heavy machines for their size, both weighing over 2000lbs, and they've allowed me to do good work. But if I knew then what I know now, I'd have spent some time & money traveling to look at some Taiwanese machines, instead of buying over the internet. Just an example - Grizzly's G0740 is labeled as a "high precision toolroom lathe", is made in Taiwan, and priced at $12,500, while the G0709 is listed at $4550. That's far from an apples-to-apples comparison, as the G0740 weighs over 2600lbs, while the G0709's weight is listed at under 1500lbs. But you get the idea...and if you want another price comparison, look at the prices for their Chinese 16x40 lathe vs the Taiwanese 16x40.

You think you're isolated in Birmingham, Alabama? - try living in far western Kansas. Born & raised out here, and wouldn't want to live anywhere else - just sayin'... Trouble is, no matter where you live, it's not easy to find machine tool dealers that have lathes in the size range typically used for barrel work. Grizzly is the exception, with a large selection of machines on display at their stores in Springfield, Mo.. Muncy, Pa., & Bellingham, Wa. I looked around, even drove 200 miles to Wichita to look at some used lathes. Key to finding a good used American made lathe is to have contacts who will let you know when a good one becomes available. You could spend years waiting, which is why so many Chinese lathes are sold in the U.S.
 
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deadly0311 said:
Birmingham AL doesnt have many places that I can go get hands on with these machines.
Click to expand...

If I were going to spend 10-16k on a machine and I couldn't "touch" one nearby I'd look into a road trip. Call the Manufacturer or Distributor for each and see if they can direct you to one in use nearby. I'm sure one of those owners would be happy to share their likes and dislikes.

I'm fortunate as I have Grizzly just an hour away. Maybe that's why most of the guys near here use their lathe with nothing but praise.


BEWARE of used lathes. Some were sold because of issues. Older lathes with journal/sleeve headstocks can be well worn and hard to hold accuracy or control chatter. Some have also been used for years making the same parts over and over with the ways worn down where the carriage moved back and forth. One of he guys I shoot with has one that has a huge "valley" (ok, not valley but .004" dip) right where he runs the carriage when chambering. He then has to hold the barrel farther out of the chuck and the old headstock wants to chatter. There's a reason that some used lathes are "bargains".
 
flatland and straightshooter,

What do you guys think of the Precision Matthews since you are the two that seem to be running them? Specifically the 1440hd or 1440?

Cigarcop you are correct that the Sharps is over 10K and closer to 12k with the 4 jaw and some other add ons

Used lathes around here and within reasonable driving distance seem to be more "production" type machines that are far bigger than what I am looking for.
 
The G0709 is basically a stretched 12x36 with a gearbox. It has a better tailstock than the similar flavors and a better set of headstock bearings and it's a D1-5 spindle which is a mixed blessing. The D1-5 is stouter but it's a bit harder to find deals on chucks. It does Metric & Imperial threads with a decent range, it does lack a few of the odd threads. The spider is nothing to get excited about, they are easy to build. When comparing lathes in the same weight & price class, the three mentioned features were what influenced me to go with the Grizzly. It's a stone axe compared to American or modern iron and I mean iron from the 50's. If you could find a SB, Monarch or a Hardinge in good shape, no question it will be superior. The problem you face is that new chicom generally beats worn out American iron. If you have the time to restore a lathe and learn how to scrape, you'll end up with a superior machine in the end. The chicom stuff you might as well consider a kit, you'll have to do some tweaks and adjustments to get it ready to go.
 
I don't know a thing about the Precision Mathews 1440hd or 1440 or any of the cheaper lathes. I paid $10,500 for mine a couple years ago. It's going for $13,000 now. Matt sells it as a PM ERL-1340. It's not on any of their web sites. If my lathe was stolen or burned up today and I was sitting here with the insurance check to buy another I would buy the exact same lathe again. I researched and shopped for two years. If I could have found a better lathe for what I'm doing at any cost I would have bought it. I could have spent more but it was the exact same lathe with a different label on it. Ask Brad and Keith at PCR about theirs. They have the TRL-1340 which is the Kent labeled version of my ERL-1340. Sharp, American Turnmaster and South Bend also sell it with their label stuck on it too.

It's first rate in every way. The tail stock is 1.970" diameter and runs true as can be. That took a little work to get that perfect. It's more like a piece of lab equipment than any of the cheaper lathes. 12" test bars come out nuts on. I check it for level in all directions with our 18" Starrett level and it has never needed the level touched up. I'll try to get some close ups.

We have no trouble dialing in our barrels and actions to .0000" run out and after machining those surfaces still do not budge or Starrett .0000" indicators. They make our job really easy. Also makes it possible to see who makes decent barrels and who doesn't. You would be surprised of who can't build a barrel with a round bore.
 
Hardinge Super Precision HC Lathe with Threading Air Collet Gunsmith Production | eBay

I only suggested the Hardinge for my friends comments about it and experiance with it. He builds exact 1/2 scale German Lugers from raw stock in exact to the minute detail, he can even make them to shoot (he can make the live rounds for them also (he's absolutely amazingly skilled). I know he paid $12K for his used and I figured that would fall into your said budget of $10-16K. I hope you find one that will work for ya and gives you what you need but I did come accross this one as an example of what you might be able to find. I know if I had that skill set I would be looking at this brand. South Bend is also top quality and have been around for quite sometime.

Dave
 
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datec said:
Hardinge Super Precision HC Lathe with Threading Air Collet Gunsmith Production | eBay

I only suggested the Hardinge for my friends comments about it and experiance with it. He builds exact 1/2 scale German Lugers from raw stock in exact to the minute detail, he can even make them to shoot (he can make the live rounds for them also (he's absolutely amazingly skilled). I know he paid $12K for his used and I figured that would fall into your said budget of $10-16K. I hope you find one that will work for ya and gives you what you need but I did come accross this one as an example of what you might be able to find. I know if I had that skill set I would be looking at this brand. South Bend is also top quality and have been around for quite sometime.

Dave
Click to expand...

You are really limited with the Hardinge spindle bore when dealing with rifle work. If they had even an 1-3/8" spindle bore, I'd have one already. I'm still wanting one and if I come across one in person that is in great condition at a good price, I'd probably grab it.
 
I believe they do have a 1-3/8'' when you remove the whole collet assembly. At least my Sharp clone does.

300sniper said:
You are really limited with the Hardinge spindle bore when dealing with rifle work. If they had even an 1-3/8" spindle bore, I'd have one already. I'm still wanting one and if I come across one in person that is in great condition at a good price, I'd probably grab it.
Click to expand...
 
deadly,
Been away from the office all day today, and the guys who were sent out the day before to hook me up to fiber optic ran into problem or problems that they'd never seen before, so I was offline most of the day Tuesday. Whatever - I bought the PM 1440HD because it's a ringer for the JET 1340 I already had. I figured having the same set of controls on both machines might avoid confusion, and in that respect, I got what I was after. The biggest disappointment was and still is the amount of oil this thing leaks out of the headstock & gearbox. Like I said, I've had the knobs, levers, and front panels off to chase down the leaks and try to fix them with silicone seal and/or new 'O' rings. It helped, but I've still got oil dry spread below the headstock to absorb oil. The other thing I don't care for is the tailstock quill lock - to get it loosened after locking, I've got to give the locking shaft a couple of whacks with a rubber mallet - a PITA, but not as much of one as the oil leaks.

On the plus side, the PM's spindle bearings were set up with less play than those of the JET, and have remained good & tight over the past several years that I've owned it. I've tightened the bearing pre-load collar twice on the JET spindle, and still get some occasional chatter - mostly when starting a chamber with an Ackley Improved reamer. Never had any chatter in any of the chambers I've cut on the PM. I bought a Newall C 80 DRO for the JET, and installed it myself, while the PM came with a Chinese DRO, along with an owner's manual written in chinglish, for lack of a more descriptive term. The Newall will spoil you for anything of less quality; when I can afford it, I'll get another one for the PM. The z-axis scale failed on the PM almost a year ago; Matt offered to fix it, but I've not gotten around to sending it back to him yet, mostly because I'd prefer to replace the whole thing with another Newall.

The other thing I didn't consider was that - even though the PM came with a 200-series Aloris-style wedge type QC toolpost, there's enough difference in compound and toolpost height between the two machines to require toolholders to be adjusted for height for each lathe, which is a minor PITA.

Given StraightShooter's comments on the ERL 13x40, I may consider calling Matt & quizzing him about it. Though I'm not in a position to do so right now, I wouldn't mind donating or selling the JET 13x40 and replacing it with one of the ERLs - especially if I could fix the oil leaks on the PM1440HD.
 
What Sharp told me is they all list 1.25'' because there is a collet pin, separate from the closer, that you have to take out to make it 1.375''. Mikee Booshay on here uses a Hardinge with the pin removed and has 1.375'' as well....
 
Interesting. If that's indeed the case, I may be planning a trip to Sothern California to look at a Sharp clone I've had my eye on.
 
In 2003 I began working for Nesika Bay precision after they merged with Dakota Arms. While there we ordered a new cnc lathe that took awhile to get.

A Hardinge HLV is what we had during the interim and it worked exceptionally well for us.

Just pull the collet closer and mount an indicatable chuck on the spindle nose. Make a spider that slips over the end of the spindle where the collet closer normally fits up to. The one I made had a split collar that clamped around the tube.

That's it. I did at least a couple hundred barrels this way for the better part of 6 months.

Easy stuff. Have no fear.

The largest part of the barrel is the cylinder. Because the chuck mounts a good 2+ inches in front of of the spindle bore, it never gets in the way to create an issue. Unless your fitting 1.250 or the bigger 1-3/8 stuff all the time, it's a non issue.

Once you own and acclimate yourself to a Hardinge you'll never look at a conventional lathe the same way again for this kind of work. Just be sure you buy a good one. Check the bed and inspect the screws/gibs closely.

Good luck,

C.
 
LongRifles said:
Once you own and acclimate yourself to a Hardinge you'll never look at a conventional lathe the same way again for this kind of work. Just be sure you buy a good one. Check the bed and inspect the screws/gibs closely.

Good luck,

C.
Click to expand...

Mark Twain, says the real measure of a mans intelligence... is the degree, with which he agrees with you.

I also use a Hardinge, had a couple PM's about it, so I'll answer all here, and add pictures. I did what Chad said, removed the collet closer, pulled the pin ( tricky, it is double set-screwed, like everything on a Hardinge), added a Set-tru chuck, and a spider on the aft end. I can get a 1.375 barrel in it, but not a 1.450 barrel, that goes on the Grizzly 0509.

The Set Tru chuck:



The aft end, less the collet closer,



The simple bracket, plus one of Bald Eagles ready made spiders:



Ready to rock:

.

The other thing that is very cool about these machines is threading. You can thread to a shoulder at 500 rpm ( I guess you could go higher, no problem, but no need either), stop at the same point every time, unless you have one of Chad's CNC machines, you can't make threads faster.

I first got involved with these machines in the 70's, making aerospace parts, and very trick defense stuff, we had about 50 of them lined up, the best guys on them could work to 2 tenths. Most of that work is now CNC, but back then, it was the best tool available. Hardinge doesn't make new machines anymore, but the clones are not bad. There is quite a cottage industry repairing the originals, there is a digital leadscrew that lets you cut virtually any thread, metric or in, with a button push. Very tempted to get one of those, we'll see what is in the future. There are good machines around, but you have to look, and get help if you aren't sure, they are not cheap to fix.
 
Shiraz, LOL, I have thought about it, I sure have!

I seem to recall that you were running one of these now? How about some real life pictures and comments about how you like it? I know you sell them, but you can share some of the info without being an infomercial. I'd like to get me hands on one and try it out, compare new school to old school.

How much is one of those going for these days, and where can I check one out?
 
MikeeBooshay said:
Shiraz, LOL, I have thought about it, I sure have!

I seem to recall that you were running one of these now? How about some real life pictures and comments about how you like it? I know you sell them, but you can share some of the info without being an infomercial. I'd like to get me hands on one and try it out, compare new school to old school.

How much is one of those going for these days, and where can I check one out?
Click to expand...

Mike - I love that machine!!

I have 3 lathes in my shop and it sits right next to the G0509G that you also have. The G0509G is a like a brute line-backer that you can depend on and the SB1009 is like the beautiful Cheerleader with brains, that makes you smile every time you look at her :) How's that for a "nonformercial"

Here's the link to that original post when we squeezed that machine into my shop.

http://www.snipershide.com/shooting/sniper-hide-gunsmithing/153309-lathe-porn.html#post2124989

Okay - sticker shock time (blurting the price out and leaving the room) $32K. Grizzly is a dealer and here's a link:

Grizzly.com

If anyone on the Hide is serious about this, PM me and I will have a chat with the boss about the price ;) The machine holds incredibly tight tolerances and I use it for very fine stuff. Anything else I say WILL sound like a salesman - wait, one more: this was my dream machine and finally told me I have the best for my needs.
 
Shiraz, what does that machine come with? Chucks, DRO, collets, tool holders, spiders?

And.... other than your basement ( now THAT is a scary thought!!!) do you have one under power in any of the Grizzly showrooms? For a 30k plus expenditure, I would want to run one for a half hour or so, and put it thru it's paces. I won't buy any used machine without running it, I got burned ONCE when I ran it, real fast, since it was under temp power outside, when I got it back to the shop, had too many issues with it to ever use it much. Learned a fairly cheap lesson there, and a machine like this is many times that price.

I probably have a little advantage on these, having had quite a bit of time on Hardinge stuff, and to me, that's a pretty high bar to clear. But...... I am looking to add other another machine, and it will be a genuine article, or a "clone" that measures up. SO...... anywhere to see one of these under power?

And OP - apologies for the sidetrack, but there is a lot of interest on this site in new equipment, both the budget type of stuff, which Griz does have, (along with several others), but also the higher end, production, cost not as much a issue if the product does as needed.
 
The decision to buy a lathe hasn't been easy for me. In fact, it's been a year since I've been going back and forth with the idea of owning a lathe. The longer I read this thread, the easier it's been getting to finally bring one home.
 
Mike - We don't have any under power at the showrooms, but have sold many around the country, so let me look and see if there is a customer close to you that has bought one and could be easy for you to get an unbiased opinion. Of course, I have the one in my shop at home.

No chucks, no collets, no spider and comes with a simple tool post. All the tooling would be extra and you can put on whatever you need. The collet closer, of course, is standard. The DRO is part of the package and built into the touch screen that has all the other custom thread features etc.

Detailed specs. from SB site:
http://resources.southbendlathe.com/specsheets/sb1009_ds.pdf
 
Papagallos said:
The decision to buy a lathe hasn't been easy for me. In fact, it's been a year since I've been going back and forth with the idea of owning a lathe. The longer I read this thread, the easier it's been getting to finally bring one home.
Click to expand...

No matter what you end up with, it will be nice to have. While there are good deals on used lathes if you know what you are looking at, a new lathe is an investment like a nice new rifle. If you ever have to sell it, you will not lose much money, specially if you take good care of it.
 
A little off topic but Pap get her done and don't look back. BTW allow same amount of coin for tooling.


R
 
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