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Rifle Scopes Need scope advice for unknown distances

NevadaMarine

NevadaMarine

Shooter
Minuteman
Feb 16, 2014
12
0
Nevada
Hello everyone,

I posted earlier and somehow the post just disappeared but left the replies there. So I will retype this.

I just had a Savage 110E 7mm Rem Mag from the 1980's handed down to me. With this gun, I plan to put a new barrel on it, do a trigger job, and add a nice scope. The intended purpose for this rifle will be to hit targets/game at unknown distances. When hunting season is in, I plan to take elk, deer, and maybe antelope with this rifle. When hunting season is not in, I plan on using this rifle to better my unknown distance shooting. My goal is to see the target, find the distance, and put rounds on target. I do not plan on entering any competitions with this rifle, just want the satisfaction to see something really far away and hit it.

My current experience. I grew up hunting with a Remington .243 and a 3-9x40 scope. I'd estimate 200 yards was probably the longest shot made with it. In the Marine Corps, I had my M4 with a 4x ACOG that I accurately hit out to 500 yards. I also had my M240 with a 6x ACOG that I used in country to walk on target out to about 800 yards. Some other training was an unknown distance course where we shot 100-500 yards on body sized targets. I enjoyed estimating and making the shots, and now it's time to take that further.

The reason for this post is to get advice on the optics I am looking in to. I have been looking for weeks, and have been playing the budget game. I read the guides on Primal Rights, Rifle Sighting Systems - Part 3: SFP vs FFP and have a question regarding SFP and FFP. For what I want to do, is FFP necessary? I think it is, due to what I have read. Unfortunately that makes the scopes very higher in price. Remember, I have to find a scope that will deal with the magnum recoil. I do not want a leupold. Just want to put that out there.

Here are the 4 I have been considering:
Nightforce SHV 4-14x56 MOAR Riflescope C520 found it for $975.00
Steiner 4-16x50 Predator Xtreme Riflescope w/ Plex S-1 Reticle found it for $669.99
Vortex Viper PST Rifle Scope 30mm Tube 6-24x 50mm Side Focus 1/10 MIL Adjustments First Focal Illuminated Matte found it for $949.99
Burris Mtac 6.5-20x50 G2bmd - 200471 found it for $597.99

Only one of these is an FFP (Vortex). FFP's seem to be out of my price range, unless you guys can recommend another.

Another question I have is; do I really need a 20x or higher scope? I have hit 800 yards with a 6x scope. Now I realize that was a medium machine gun and that it didn't have pinpoint accuracy which will be needed for hunting, but will a 16x do the work for 500-1000 yards?

I know questions like these are asked ALL the time, but I hope that with providing all the details I have and even some scopes that it will help with your responses.

If you need to know anything else, feel free to ask. I have spent WEEKS looking and don't make enough money to buy the wrong scope.
Robert
 
FFP makes it much easier, but you can accomplish both of your goals with a SFP scope. For hunting I would prefer a SFP scope. When hunting I usually have time to use the LRF or dial in max mag to range with the reticle (never had to hunting due to LRF).

Same for shooting steel and targets at unknown distance. You have time to adjust to max mag to range with the reticle.

You do not NEED a 20X or higher for your scope, especially if shooting steel. You do not NEED a 20X or higher scope for hunting either. A quality 4-16 with good glass will allow you to see and make hits out to 1,000 yds.

Quality scope with good glass is what is important here. Before you buy anything, try to get behind as many different scopes as you can.
 
As to your question of " Do I need a 20 x for hunting"




20 x is nice if you are hunting long distance but you don't need it .You didn't say what type of terrain you are hunting but I assume mountains
since you mentioned elk . Shooting , hunting long distance in that type of terrain I would go easy 24 x or 25 x
but you can get by with less.
 
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It sounds like you are looking to hunt with or prepare for hunting with this setup. Knowing how to do range estimation is a handy skill to have but I would suggest using a LRF. They're faster than using the reticle and usually more accurate. As far as magnification range, I feel the more the better, you can always dial back for the shot but milling a target is easier at the higher magnification. Check out the new Bushnell LRHS for another scope option too.
 
Much better to save up and buy what will best suit your requirements then to let price be a major factor. The old "buy once......" thing.

OFG
 
To the basic question of the primary use for the rifle - GET A LASER RANGEFINDER. The deer will walk away from boredom before you are able to accurately estimate the distance, do the math, dial in the hold and take the shot.

But to your other question of do you need FFP. No, but honestly they are not that much more than an equivalent SFP and they do many many other things for you besides ranging. In fact I would say ranging UKD is the least of its utility. The ability to accurately use the reticle at any magnification and adjust shots is really where the FFP shines. And is what makes the $100-200 extra well worth it.

It sounds like your budget is about $1000 or less. In that range there are several good FFPs scopes. The Vortex PST would by my choice, but only because I owned one. Very nice glass for the $$. Others that have gotten good reviews are the Burris XTR, Bushnell Elite tactical, the Weaver tactical and the Sightron III all have FFP scopes for under or at $1k.

Make sure the knobs match the reticle (Mil/mil or MOA/MOA). Suggest you just go mil and be done with it. It is the new standard. MOA is old and dated.
 
I don't shoot unknown distances, and I don't bother with Mil-Dots. A LRF is indispensable, IMHO; as any distance within reason becomes a known distance right quick. My LRF ranges to 600yd; I think that's plenty considering my capabilities honestly. Not paying for FFP and MilDot on a half-dozen scopes will pay for a pretty dandy LRF. Combining this with a Pejsa Stock Table clear-taped to the near side of the rifle's buttstock should deliver a generally acceptable ballpark ranging solution. I am also looking into a BDC reticle for my short barrel AR upper, which should deliver a ballpark aiming point in conjunction with the LRF. Quicker, simpler, less guesswork, less time, and maybe a shot saver when chips are down.

Greg
 
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Pinecone said:
For whatever you choose, contact Sport Optics (Rifle Scopes, Binoculars, Spotting Scopes and Range Finders | Swarovski, Leica, Zeiss | SportOptics).

They have a VERY nice Sniper's Hide discount. My Viper PST 6-24x FFP Mil/Mil scope was a good bit cheaper than the price you posted. :)
Click to expand...

I went to this site and found them to be actually higher. THey have the non FFP viper for cheaper, but their FFP viper is more money than the one I posted.

To everyone who mentioned range finders, I actually have 2 and would rather not have a computer attached to my rifle.

As far as the Weavers go, aren't they generally a cheap scope? I don't think I would consider them. I have personally seen 2 scopes fail to a magnum recoil.

But to your other question of do you need FFP. No, but honestly they are not that much more than an equivalent SFP and they do many many other things for you besides ranging. In fact I would say ranging UKD is the least of its utility. The ability to accurately use the reticle at any magnification and adjust shots is really where the FFP shines. And is what makes the $100-200 extra well worth it.
Click to expand...

That is kinda why I was wanting an FFP. You don't need the scope at 20x if you are shooting 300 yards out.
 
FFP is going to be really nice to have for what you want to do.

Recoil-wise, if you do NOT use a brake, any scope you've listed should be fine. If you DO use a muzzle brake, I would scratch the Vortex PST and Burris MTAC off the list, and be thinking Nightforce or maybe that Steiner Predator. But I think a much better option within a sub-1k budget would be the SWFA SS 3-15x scope, which is $699 regularly, sometimes available cheaper, and should handle your needs and wants as well as anything else below $1k. I would also consider the Weaver Elite Tactical 3-15x50mm, but their warranty service doesn't have a great reputation and is only good for the first owner, and it's a big and heavy scope too. If you don't need a ton of magnification, the SWFA SS 3-9x42 is a somewhat nicer made scope than the 3-15x with very good glass for its $599 price, and is regularly (just a couple days ago, for instance) available on the SWFA samplelist for $499 or so. I have three, and for what they cost they are a great scope. Either flavor of SWFA SS should handle any recoil, including with muzzle brakes, and SWFA will immediately replace the scope if your rifle breaks it anyway.
 
Thanks Everyone for the current input!

To all who mentioned Range Finders, I already have 2 so acquiring another is not really mandatory. Also, I don't really want a computer ( Eliminator and Yardage Pro ) mounted on top of my rifle. I still use a paper map rather than a GPS when I hunt.

As for the Weaver optic mentioned. Isn't that company rather cheap? As I recall, you used to be able to buy their scopes for like $100 in a store.

PineCone, I went to that site and their 6-24 FFP PST was a little bit more than the one I found and listed.

Notso, I would like the FFP solely for the magnification and reticle being in sync. You don't need a 20x when you have determined the target is only 200 yards out. That is why I would like the FFP so that I can make 200-1000 yard shots and be able to adjust without worrying about my magnification level.

The Burris Veracity is also one I am considering in the 4-20x50 since it is an FFP and seems to meet what I am looking for.
 
If you can manage $1k or so, I would take a close look at the Burris XTR II series that is just now coming to market. No in-depth reviews yet as of today, but probably within 2-3 weeks there will be. It looks promising based on specifications and what some people thought about it at SHOT. Another option to consider would be the SWFA SS 5-20x50mm HD model, which runs $1300 new but can often be found around $1k in barely used condition (classifieds here, or the SWFA sample list), and is a very nice scope with FFP, a good reticle, 10 mil turrets, and really terrific glass clarity.
 
SomeOtherGuy said:
Recoil-wise, if you do NOT use a brake, any scope you've listed should be fine. If you DO use a muzzle brake, I would scratch the Vortex PST and Burris MTAC off the list, and be thinking Nightforce or maybe that Steiner Predator.

Either flavor of SWFA SS should handle any recoil, including with muzzle brakes,
Click to expand...

I'm a bit confused here. Why would a muzzle brake be harder on a scope than a rifle without a MB? That seems counter-intuitive to me. I have a .308 with a Badger FTE brake and the felt recoil impulse is almost zero compared to before I installed the brake. If I'm not feeling the recoil, then the scope isn't either. On a 7mm Rem Mag, I would think the effect of a brake on reducing the "jolt" the scope gets every time would be even MORE significant that a non-braked magnum.

What am I missing here?
 
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Notso said:
I'm a bit confused here. Why would a muzzle brake be harder on a scope than a rifle without a MB? That seems counter-intuitive to me. I have a .308 with a Badger FTE brake and the felt recoil impulse is almost zero compared to before I installed the brake. If I'm not feeling the recoil, then the scope isn't either. On a 7mm Rem Mag, I would think the effect of a brake on reducing the "jolt" the scope gets every time would be even MORE significant that a non-braked magnum.

What am I missing here?
Click to expand...

Muzzle brakes reduce the shooter's felt recoil, but a scope rigidly mounted to the rifle experiences a quick reverse in recoil - first it experiences the recoil of firing the shot, from the instant the bullet starts moving and as long as it's in the barrel, and then a very sudden reversal when the hot gas hits the brake and causes a forward force that counteracts much of the rifle's recoil. To the shooter you just feel a softer kick than without the brake, because the braking effect happens before the rifle has moved significantly (maybe like .01") and that little bit of movement gets absorbed in the recoil paid, your clothing, or the softer tissue of your shoulder. But the scope feels the initial recoil AND the sudden reversal, which is nearly as strong. Most of the lower priced scopes are not designed to handle the reversal or "forward recoil" and will fail after some amount of use with a braked magnum. There are a couple of threads here of people who've had Viper PST's break on rifles that were lightweight magnums with a muzzle brake. Reverse recoil is the same reason that many cheaper scopes won't survive use on a spring piston airgun, even though the shooter's felt recoil is tiny.
 
SomeOtherGuy said:
Muzzle brakes reduce the shooter's felt recoil, but a scope rigidly mounted to the rifle experiences a quick reverse in recoil - first it experiences the recoil of firing the shot, from the instant the bullet starts moving and as long as it's in the barrel, and then a very sudden reversal when the hot gas hits the brake and causes a forward force that counteracts much of the rifle's recoil. To the shooter you just feel a softer kick than without the brake, because the braking effect happens before the rifle has moved significantly (maybe like .01") and that little bit of movement gets absorbed in the recoil paid, your clothing, or the softer tissue of your shoulder. But the scope feels the initial recoil AND the sudden reversal, which is nearly as strong. Most of the lower priced scopes are not designed to handle the reversal or "forward recoil" and will fail after some amount of use with a braked magnum. There are a couple of threads here of people who've had Viper PST's break on rifles that were lightweight magnums with a muzzle brake. Reverse recoil is the same reason that many cheaper scopes won't survive use on a spring piston airgun, even though the shooter's felt recoil is tiny.
Click to expand...

Uhhh, ok. That sorta makes sense. I'm no expert and I haven't even stayed in a Holiday Inn recently, so I'll take your word for it. BUT.... would the scope not like the sudden stop as the rifle slams into your shoulder more than the much less abrupt movement associated with a MB?

I get the concept of the "reverse recoil" but it seems that motion is tiny compared to the almost sudden stop as the full recoil hits your body.

Interesting though..... I learn something new everyday.
 
Notso said:
BUT.... would the scope not like the sudden stop as the rifle slams into your shoulder more than the much less abrupt movement associated with a MB?
I get the concept of the "reverse recoil" but it seems that motion is tiny compared to the almost sudden stop as the full recoil hits your body.
Click to expand...

Your shoulder is soft and squishy compared to steel or aluminum. It may be a harsh kick for you but it's a gentle stop for the rifle, compared to the initial recoil and any braking effect. Even if it is a hard stop - like using a machine rest - a stop alone is something any decent scope is engineered for, but the sudden forward push of a brake is something that only some scopes are engineered for.
 
SomeOtherGuy said:
Your shoulder is soft and squishy compared to steel or aluminum. It may be a harsh kick for you but it's a gentle stop for the rifle, compared to the initial recoil and any braking effect. Even if it is a hard stop - like using a machine rest - a stop alone is something any decent scope is engineered for, but the sudden forward push of a brake is something that only some scopes are engineered for.
Click to expand...

Out of curiosity, what do you base that knowledge of scope engineering on?
 
I just put a Vortex 4-16X50 FFP scope on my 300 Win Mag. It's going to be my elk gun. I plan on practicing way out there, but I may never shoot at a big game animal beyond 500 yards. I don't like wounding the game...
 
NevadaMarine - Dittos on your interest in the new Veracity line from Burris. I've yet to hear of anyone's actual hands-on experience with them, and would guess that they're probably on the same time line as far as availability goes. But they sure look interesting to me.
 
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