I've searched and read lots of info on each but haven't found a comparison. There is obviously a significant price difference. With FFS, I have to add the Kestrel but get a GPS and maybe a camera with the Nomad. I use a Fusion ARC One Mile which will give me angle and distance. I want to be able to get good solutions out to a mile and want something that is user friendly. So the question is what do I lose or gain with either set-up?
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Paging [MENTION=31553]matt2143[/MENTION] Paging [MENTION=31553]matt2143[/MENTION]
I do not understand the reference to Matt. Does he have one of the set-ups for sale, is he the resident expert on one or both?
Matt has extensive experience with both units. Just making sure he sees the thread
P-A-W, thanks. I'm looking forward to hearing what Matt has to say. If this has already been well examined, with Matt's input, I'd appreciate a link to the thread.
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CoryT would probably be the best person to explain what exactly the benefit of the FFS software is over the AB Kestrel. Realistically I think it's mainly the ELR stuff where FFS shines over the others. That and the ability to integrate all of the systems into a one button firing solution accurate out to the moon.
Quarter Horse, sent you a LONG pm.
CoryT at Gunsite Academy is probably one of the most experienced users of field firing solutions there is.
My personal opinions in a nut shell is, FFS is for those who go to a FFP setup and shoot at distances greater than mach 0.8 for their rifle system. The one button firing solution is really neat but VERY expensive, essentially you are looking at a kestrel 4500NV with bluetooth, Nomad with FFS, and Vectronix 10C (C version for bearing and target angle). That'll cost you a cool $5k+
For those that move and shoot or like to carry less gear and rarely shoot past mach 1.0 I would say the AB Kestrel is a one shop stop that can do anything the shooter will ask of it.
I also do not feel the Fusion Mile LRF is what you need if you choose to run a mile. You either need known distances or a better RF. Look here http://precisionrifleblog.com/2013/...iews-field-tests-ranging-performance-results/
The Bushnell Mile LRF is a solid 800 yard LRF and the accuracy goes down to 50-80% beyond that to one mile. To uses FFS to it's potential your range finder needs to be just as accurate, 'garbage in, garbage out'. I always said a LRF is 100% to about HALF of its listed distance (i.e. Leica 1600 is good 100% of the time to 800 yards, Mile binos good to 880 etc). This is the way it seems to work. I have sold all my other LRF's and bought a Terrapin. Some say that is way more than most shooters will ever need, I say it is just right. The Terrapin is rated somewhere about 2500 yards (go by the half rule and you have about a 1250 yard LRF 100% of the time). We all know some guys are getting hits to 5k yards with a Terrapin but what we need is to know when we see a distance displayed it is CORRECT! Shooting ELR is expensive, every round you send costs usually a good amount of money, buy the right equipment to match your expectations. Not saying you cannot do it with printed dope chart, compass and a thermometer (because you can), you really are paying for a higher hit percentage, because e all like hitting what we are shooting at!
CoryT at Gunsite Academy is probably one of the most experienced users of field firing solutions there is.
My personal opinions in a nut shell is, FFS is for those who go to a FFP setup and shoot at distances greater than mach 0.8 for their rifle system. The one button firing solution is really neat but VERY expensive, essentially you are looking at a kestrel 4500NV with bluetooth, Nomad with FFS, and Vectronix 10C (C version for bearing and target angle). That'll cost you a cool $5k+
For those that move and shoot or like to carry less gear and rarely shoot past mach 1.0 I would say the AB Kestrel is a one shop stop that can do anything the shooter will ask of it.
I also do not feel the Fusion Mile LRF is what you need if you choose to run a mile. You either need known distances or a better RF. Look here http://precisionrifleblog.com/2013/...iews-field-tests-ranging-performance-results/
The Bushnell Mile LRF is a solid 800 yard LRF and the accuracy goes down to 50-80% beyond that to one mile. To uses FFS to it's potential your range finder needs to be just as accurate, 'garbage in, garbage out'. I always said a LRF is 100% to about HALF of its listed distance (i.e. Leica 1600 is good 100% of the time to 800 yards, Mile binos good to 880 etc). This is the way it seems to work. I have sold all my other LRF's and bought a Terrapin. Some say that is way more than most shooters will ever need, I say it is just right. The Terrapin is rated somewhere about 2500 yards (go by the half rule and you have about a 1250 yard LRF 100% of the time). We all know some guys are getting hits to 5k yards with a Terrapin but what we need is to know when we see a distance displayed it is CORRECT! Shooting ELR is expensive, every round you send costs usually a good amount of money, buy the right equipment to match your expectations. Not saying you cannot do it with printed dope chart, compass and a thermometer (because you can), you really are paying for a higher hit percentage, because e all like hitting what we are shooting at!
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Can't speak to the AB solution, but I've recently invested significant coin in the other system. I've got a Trimble Nomad 900L, FFS Delta V, Kestrel 4500NV BT, Vectronix PLRF 10C, Vectronix SEV-78 trigger data cable, APO Electro Optic Rail Mount, and an APO TACT-3S tripod kit. All told, I've got about $10,000 tied up in this gear. That's the down side.
The upside is that once you get through the learning curve, this stuff works great. I can setup at a FFP and build a range card simply by lasing my targets. The program gives me solutions for each target and updates with current weather. I can save target groups and FFPs. The features are endless, but you do have to invest time to learn them. The developer, Blaine Fields, tells you that right up front. I've called him many times with questions and he's always been very helpful in explaining things. It's definitely not for everyone, but you'll never need to upgrade from this system.
I will say that from what I've read, the AB solution requires a PC to upload some of the data. Everything can be put in to FFS from the device. Also, the screen is larger and the battery life appears to be longer. The Nomad also has a built-in GPS which the AB does not. The Nomad also comes with a mapping program that allows you to do map recons of your AO.
I agree with Matt that believing the LRF manufacturer's marketing hype can bite you. I started with a Bushnell Yardage Pro 800, went to the TruPulse 360R, Vectronix Terrapin, and finally the Vectronix 10C. Only the Vectronix units actually delivered on the stated capabilities. My dream LRF is a Vector 23, but I'll have to sell a kidney on eBay before that'll happen.
I think a happy medium would be a Nomad 900L, FFS Delta V, Kestrel 4500NV BT, and a Terrapin. You give up the LRF data interface, but entering the ranges manually isn't a huge deal. You also don't get the compass or inclination information. But, the feature set will be far beyond what the AB solution appears to offer. But then that's to be expected. There's only so much functionality that you can cram into one device. It's like a one man band whereas the Nomad/FFS solution is like Metallica. But then again, I'm biased. Hopefully you find something of value in this rant.
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The upside is that once you get through the learning curve, this stuff works great. I can setup at a FFP and build a range card simply by lasing my targets. The program gives me solutions for each target and updates with current weather. I can save target groups and FFPs. The features are endless, but you do have to invest time to learn them. The developer, Blaine Fields, tells you that right up front. I've called him many times with questions and he's always been very helpful in explaining things. It's definitely not for everyone, but you'll never need to upgrade from this system.
I will say that from what I've read, the AB solution requires a PC to upload some of the data. Everything can be put in to FFS from the device. Also, the screen is larger and the battery life appears to be longer. The Nomad also has a built-in GPS which the AB does not. The Nomad also comes with a mapping program that allows you to do map recons of your AO.
I agree with Matt that believing the LRF manufacturer's marketing hype can bite you. I started with a Bushnell Yardage Pro 800, went to the TruPulse 360R, Vectronix Terrapin, and finally the Vectronix 10C. Only the Vectronix units actually delivered on the stated capabilities. My dream LRF is a Vector 23, but I'll have to sell a kidney on eBay before that'll happen.
I think a happy medium would be a Nomad 900L, FFS Delta V, Kestrel 4500NV BT, and a Terrapin. You give up the LRF data interface, but entering the ranges manually isn't a huge deal. You also don't get the compass or inclination information. But, the feature set will be far beyond what the AB solution appears to offer. But then that's to be expected. There's only so much functionality that you can cram into one device. It's like a one man band whereas the Nomad/FFS solution is like Metallica. But then again, I'm biased. Hopefully you find something of value in this rant.
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I sold my PLRF 10 C and I bought a Vector 21, the better laser range finder I ever seen.. the beam is amazing, accurate, If you want to have target coordinates with the Vector 21 you are able to have it till 11000 meters with max errors of 4/5 meters.... CAS call for somebody .. ( only fun for me )
double post
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Exactly. It is all about what your intended uses are. If you only shoot inside mach 0.8-1.0 and move a lot the Kestrel is VERY hard to beat. If you intend to sit down, lay your gear all out and send rounds at distances that exceed 1200-1500 yards all day no doubt the FFS setup with linked LRF and Kestrel is the most precise firing solution.
The Hide comes through again. Matt's PM is to the point and answers the question in real world terms. I will be shooting a .338LM which is predicted to be mach I to 1760 so, with Matt's guidance, I will buy the Kestrel 4500 with AB.
A note concerning the Bushnell 1 Mile's. The comparison testing in the thread Matt references can be a little difficult to follow as regards the author's methodology and results. If the reader goes to the the final graphic, beam divergence, you will see that the results are based on a 90% hit ratio. In the case of 1Mile this 90% is at 1760yds. in good conditions. A little further down the thread the author explains that his target is a 30" square plate with a 42" diagonal which is painted white and therefore is a reflective target. This is roughly a 2MOA target. There is no question that the Terrapin is a superior unit but I believe the 1Miles will yield the info I need.
Thanks.
A note concerning the Bushnell 1 Mile's. The comparison testing in the thread Matt references can be a little difficult to follow as regards the author's methodology and results. If the reader goes to the the final graphic, beam divergence, you will see that the results are based on a 90% hit ratio. In the case of 1Mile this 90% is at 1760yds. in good conditions. A little further down the thread the author explains that his target is a 30" square plate with a 42" diagonal which is painted white and therefore is a reflective target. This is roughly a 2MOA target. There is no question that the Terrapin is a superior unit but I believe the 1Miles will yield the info I need.
Thanks.
Quarter Horse-
Any possibility of sharing the detailed info from Matt with the rest of us. I've been using a standard kestrel 4500 and ballistic AE on my iphone with great success to around 1100 with my .308.
But recently scored a great deal on a trimble from eBay and have been looking at both coldbore and ffs for it. Also trying to upgrade my leica 1600 to a terrapin soon in anticipation of the 338lm I have on order.
Any info guidance in what direction to go forward with in regards to my data gathering and processing would be great before I've got rifle in hand.
Thanks
Joe
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk 2
Any possibility of sharing the detailed info from Matt with the rest of us. I've been using a standard kestrel 4500 and ballistic AE on my iphone with great success to around 1100 with my .308.
But recently scored a great deal on a trimble from eBay and have been looking at both coldbore and ffs for it. Also trying to upgrade my leica 1600 to a terrapin soon in anticipation of the 338lm I have on order.
Any info guidance in what direction to go forward with in regards to my data gathering and processing would be great before I've got rifle in hand.
Thanks
Joe
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk 2
Hi,
So far, I'm sold on the kestrel Horus and now the AB.
Was using it yesterday out to 900-950 meter with 308 and 7mm-08 and have used it to 1400 with .338. Going longer a bit later in the year, which might stretch it, but fine for now.
Get the AB with the profile loader (PC attachment) and use the Applied Ballistics custom drag curves. I use serial interface because I think Bluetooth is crap.
Eg yesterday, I took my 20 year old custom Sako 591 in 7-08 with a Leupold M8 12x40 on an outing. Basically still a hunting rifle. Put a 20 MOA rail and an elevation knob on it last month. Loaded up some 168 HPMK to 845 m/s checked with a Magnetoscope v2.
Loaded drag curve for that bullet and scope height into kestrel. Zeroed at 100 meter at 550 meter altitude.
Range yesterday was at 1480 meters altitude.Target was 931 meters and 7 degrees inclination. Gave me the solution as almost exactly 30 MOA (from memory). Target were two torso and two chest exposed.
Held off right for wind (no windage knob). First shot about 1 ft left. Held another 2 feet right and hit. Hit the other torso and then the two chests with the next three shots.
Value for money, hard to beat. I'd recommend starting with that and then see how serious you get after that. It's more than enough to give you the most valuable tool of all, experience!!!
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So far, I'm sold on the kestrel Horus and now the AB.
Was using it yesterday out to 900-950 meter with 308 and 7mm-08 and have used it to 1400 with .338. Going longer a bit later in the year, which might stretch it, but fine for now.
Get the AB with the profile loader (PC attachment) and use the Applied Ballistics custom drag curves. I use serial interface because I think Bluetooth is crap.
Eg yesterday, I took my 20 year old custom Sako 591 in 7-08 with a Leupold M8 12x40 on an outing. Basically still a hunting rifle. Put a 20 MOA rail and an elevation knob on it last month. Loaded up some 168 HPMK to 845 m/s checked with a Magnetoscope v2.
Loaded drag curve for that bullet and scope height into kestrel. Zeroed at 100 meter at 550 meter altitude.
Range yesterday was at 1480 meters altitude.Target was 931 meters and 7 degrees inclination. Gave me the solution as almost exactly 30 MOA (from memory). Target were two torso and two chest exposed.
Held off right for wind (no windage knob). First shot about 1 ft left. Held another 2 feet right and hit. Hit the other torso and then the two chests with the next three shots.
Value for money, hard to beat. I'd recommend starting with that and then see how serious you get after that. It's more than enough to give you the most valuable tool of all, experience!!!
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD
Hotrod, Matt says send it out, so his PM is coming your way. You will note that he has worked with both Coldbore and FFS.
Best hide sponsor for a 4500AB?
I run FFS on a 800 nomad with the use of a Kestrel 4500 NV.
If your hunting it has the added bonus of the capability to allow the use of CompeGPS TwoNav. You can use this with Topo maps and Sat imagery.
Simply put:
It's the ducks nuts.
If your hunting it has the added bonus of the capability to allow the use of CompeGPS TwoNav. You can use this with Topo maps and Sat imagery.
Simply put:
It's the ducks nuts.
Played with the Leica 10x42 HD-B yesterday...
Still not impressed with this unit.
I could not get it to lase anything above 1180 meters in spite of 30 mins trying...
This was mountains, rocks, trees, occasional buildings and lotsa snow.
Not a bright day - should have been fairly good conditions for a laser - snow usually works well.
Almost $3K - and the damned thing didn't even have a tripod connector!!!!!
My spotter/team mate has a NEWCON 7x50 LRF Range-finding Binocular, 4000m
Heavy at shit, but whatever you point it at - it works.
My ideal rangefinder is still out there on a drawing board somewhere....
Still not impressed with this unit.
I could not get it to lase anything above 1180 meters in spite of 30 mins trying...
This was mountains, rocks, trees, occasional buildings and lotsa snow.
Not a bright day - should have been fairly good conditions for a laser - snow usually works well.
Almost $3K - and the damned thing didn't even have a tripod connector!!!!!
My spotter/team mate has a NEWCON 7x50 LRF Range-finding Binocular, 4000m
Heavy at shit, but whatever you point it at - it works.
My ideal rangefinder is still out there on a drawing board somewhere....
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Agreed!
we offer Kestrel meters in the Hide store. Click the "Shop Sniper's Hide" link at the top of the page. A portion of your purchase goes to support the Hide.
I have the kestrel 4500 AB and used it to shoot to 1900 yrds with a 338 Lapua. We collected data at 900ft elevation drove half way across the country and ended at 5500 ft elevation. Elevation for our shot at 1900 yrds was spot on. I think the kestrel is an easy unit to use all data can be entered at the handset and only takes a minute. Now there software update I am not a fan but I made it thru it. Now FFS with all the add on sounds bad ass and I wouldn't doubt the performance one bit. Just don't have the cash to swing all that. I have found the kestrel easier to use than running applied ballistics on my phone. Less data input so less to go wrong.
I rarely weigh the "is it worth it?" factor on ELR shooting gear, but with Vector 21s it's hard not to think, "new truck or new LRF?"
Yeah, when the model number equals the price in thousands, I'm out of my league.
To the OP's question, they are two different animals with different feature sets. With my Nomad, I can fire up the GPS program and do a map recon of the area before I even get there. I can create range cards just by lasing the targets and have multiple targets displayed on one screen along with the hold over/under for each target. I can then double tap a target to make that my primary target and then all of the hold over/unders are recalculated. At my last shooting session, I did all of this and engaged 5 targets with first round hits out to about 800 yds (only shooting a 308) within a matter of minutes. It's an amazing software package. It also has a steep learning curve. I've watched all of Blaine's training videos twice and have read the manual many times.
Of course, if this functionality isn't important, then the AB is probably your best bet as it's very capable.
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