How is a 16" 6.5 cm any different than a 16" 308?
- Thread starter Tyler455
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I have an 18” Kimber Adirondack that flings 140’s a little over 2700 fps, it slaps mule deer like Thor’s hammer. That will be it’s “purpose”
I guess everyone has their own uses for barrel lengths. Should have put "for me" in there so I didn't stir up a storm. If it works for you, awesome! Im not hating, just saying. 16" inch isnt ideal for velocities in 308 either. Not arguing against that. They are super handy shooters, and I'll leave it at that. To each his own.
I think having a handy deer gun is awesome. Shooting 1k plus is a different story. I was just thinking long distance shooting with 147s and not a deer Slayer from 0-400 or whatever distance.
If I could match the speed of my Kimber (2710) with the 140gr eld-m then it would carry out to 1000 with zero issues. However I’m not sure I would take a poke at deer out that far with it.
Don’t think they make one that short. Just checked there spec sheet and it looks like 20in is the shortest
I'm curious as to what barrels they are going to be going forward with. I tried to call Bartlein and Proof and ask for a barrel and they both shot me down. I'm still waiting for the 300 WSM and that wider stock pad. My rifle would be complete with those 2 things.
They may want people to sell through them...
300wsm doesn’t do much for me. 338 creed could be something.
If they do 300wsm will it be a custom mag?
300wsm doesn’t do much for me. 338 creed could be something.
If they do 300wsm will it be a custom mag?
If it can push a 212 gr bullet 2900+ in a 23" barrel or so, I'm in. I don't know much about 338 Creed. Assuming a cartrage with good subsonic capabilities probably with really heavy pills? Assuming the case doesn't have the capacity to shoot those heavy pills at distance?.. just thinking out loud.
Factory 300wsm ammo fits in KAC and Larue Mags. Magpuls are too short at SAMMI spec.. I think they would low feed so maybe some change with the feed lips? I don't know specifically what would need to be done. Maybe someone from Q already does?
I'll take a LA Fix in 300 win mag please!!!
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It is everything a 16" 308 is an more. No downside, if you want a 16" gun, 6.5C does a great job.
I don't think anyone is choosing a 16" anything for dedicated LR shooting, but I could be wrong.
You have me curious now.. We know 16" isn't ideal for either, so putting that aside.
So.. say a 16 inch 308 with 178gr ELDX at a BC of .552 and the 6.5 143 eldx at a BC of .625. Assuming we both have these velocities at 2500??, more or less pending hand loads or whatever. From my charts in the Ballistic AE app, the 6.5 shoots slightly flatter, but does not at any point through the 1400 yard range I capped it at, overcome the energy of the 308. At 600 the 308 had 4.78 mils of drop and 1070 ft.lbs of energy, and the 6.5 has 4.56 mils, and 970 ft lbs. At 800 we have 7.78mils in the 308 at 794 ft.lbs, and the 6.5 has 7.31mils and 733 ft.lbs.
They are pretty close at those longer distances, but I don't see the advantage for hunting unless my numbers are off. Talking from a hunting standpoint.. When you get closer at the 200 yard mark, there is a much bigger difference in the 308 energy vs the 6.5. About 325 ft.lbs difference. 308 is 1899ft.lbs vs the 6.5 at 1574 ft.lbs.
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I can run them with the wind later. But for your typical hunting distances (for me at least) Im not sure if this would be a factor for me. So from 2-500 yards I'll have to see what that wind looks like.
Also, I think that ELDX minimum velocity for expansion is like 1800FPS. So for me, I would cap these rounds out at 500 and 550 yards respectably for something like a good mule deer, out of these 16 inch barrels.
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Is what it is. .308 bullet development has gone forward since the days that the .260 and 6.5 Creedmoor really got popular, and narrowed the gap. 6.5 Bullet development has also moved forward, too. You can skin it however you want, moral of the story is USUALLY the creedmoor has higher BC, similar or higher velocity, and less recoil. The .308 typically has more energy until a distance beyond what a lot of people are comfortable shooting at big game at.
In the case where you slow them both down, one advantage still remains and that's recoil.
In the case where you slow them both down, one advantage still remains and that's recoil.
Good points here. There are endless choices of calibers, bullets, barrel lengths, etc. So many good options out there these days.
Correct. Because just like the “market” still thinks you must be based on 700 action to be a bolt gun, the market still thinks you need 22+ for Anything 6.5 related. Remember when going less than 24 inches on a 308 was sacrilege?
I’m sure Kevin from Q could convince the good folks in MT to spin him some shorter 6.5 barrels.
Nice product Kevin. If I had the cash (or even a job haha) id snatch one up right now. Lite is right and Short and fast is where it’s at.... in bolt guns anyway
I tried to get a shorter 6.5 on a proof barrel and they just got back to me saying at this time proof is not making any short barrels but maybe the the other company might
All this talk about .308 vs 6.5 for hunting has me thinking 7-08 with 162’s is probably the sweet spot if it will fit the magazine.
7mm Creedmoor would give you some more room if someone didn’t mind a handload only option.
7mm Creedmoor would give you some more room if someone didn’t mind a handload only option.
You could always chop one of the Bartleins down. Mile High Shooting (local to me) will do it for $150. That would be the 90 degree shoulder and not tapered.
I’m up in Severance looks like we’re neighbors.
I think you already have your answer, but from my point of view, I don' reload anymore, and no 16" gun I've ever had has been able to get the velocities you are assuming. I also agree that for responsible hunting, there is no downside to the 308 in a short barrel. Most of my hunting over the years has been done exactly that way. For the N.A. game that I hunt, the energy difference between the two rounds is meaningless, and the 6.5 has less recoil and less wind affect. For playing at longer ranges on steel, the 6.5 again outperforms the 308, but that is just playing. Anyone serious about first round hits at distance is going to generally choose a longer barrel.
Is there a great difference between the two, out of a 16" barrel? Just depends on exactly which round you're using, and how much wind you need to deal with and how good you are at dealing with it. Hence my original statement, which I stand by. Is it light years ahead of a 308? No. Is it as good as the 308 and better in some ways? Yes.
Velocities would be different imo. I think a 178 would only go 2500 if pushed really hard. Here is a reference...
https://rifleshooter.com/2014/12/30...ato-barrel-length-versus-velocity-28-to-16-5/
Bullet selection will also come into factor. I think the best 16-18in caliber in 7mm-08 as it has good mid weight bullets. I think if there was a 130 eld x in 6.5 it would be a excellent choice for hunting
At the end of the day when it comes to hunting shot placement is the most important factor.
175gr SMKs go average of 2525 out of my 16" fix. The berger VLD 175s also go over 2500 for me. Seeing the same out of my father's 16" rem 700. They go even faster out of my KAC APC 16" gun into the mid 2500's. Each gun is different. Same with powder and bullets used as others have stated. Every barrel slings them different. Just beating a dead horse at this point I think. If I had a 16" 6.5cm to test out, we would have better data. Just speculation at this point.
I may have mile high chop my 22 6.5 cm Fix barrel down just for data and compairsion sake.
I may have mile high chop my 22 6.5 cm Fix barrel down just for data and compairsion sake.
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Reloads or factory? My 168 FGMM is 2450 or so out of my 16" Fix.
That’s odd as usually gas guns are slower as it siphons the gas tax to cycle the bolt...
I think a 16in creed would be interesting but not sure if worth the price.
If I could find someone to rebore to 7mm for 7mm-08ai that would be fun but cost prohibitive
Man, I was 2495 with the 168's when I first got the barrel. A case into it, it dropped to 2459. I have not chrono'd the 175's yet, but I also switched to the 6.5C barrel a few weeks ago, so I won't be shooting it as a 308 for a while. I'm burning up my 168's through other guns, and then I'll switch to the 175 and 185.
Don't know how to explain it. My 20" rem 700 was the same speed as the KAC SR25 APC the other day when I was shooting. But that 20" barreled gun is a little slow..
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How is everyone’s bolt lift? I was able to spend some time with my rifle today and cycled the bolt about 300 times, lift doesn’t seem to be getting any lighter. I may try some grease on the mating surfaces and see what happens.
How are peoples 16” 308s going?
What is the action like to cycle and how front heavy are the rifles?
I’ve been beating my head on the desk trying to decide between the 16” 308 MPR and the Fix for weeks since I live in Australia and seeing, handling or shooting either isn’t an option before I order but I think at the end of the day I keep going back to the AR10 mags, AR safety, narrower hand guard, lower price (here not in the US) and slightly lower weight.
Are they actually 6.3 lbs or are they heavier and the number fudged a bit?
What is the action like to cycle and how front heavy are the rifles?
I’ve been beating my head on the desk trying to decide between the 16” 308 MPR and the Fix for weeks since I live in Australia and seeing, handling or shooting either isn’t an option before I order but I think at the end of the day I keep going back to the AR10 mags, AR safety, narrower hand guard, lower price (here not in the US) and slightly lower weight.
Are they actually 6.3 lbs or are they heavier and the number fudged a bit?
I will cut anyone's Bartlein barrel down for $125 shipped.
So I was able to handle both at dallas safari club show in January. To me the fix and mpr don’t compare. The fix is a clean sheet design and works better. The mpr is a Remington 700 with a light chassis. The ones I saw had build qualities that were not to the level of the fix. For example there were 2-3 mpr there and the variation in the distance between the hand guard and the top of the barrel were all different. One of them there was maybe 1/4 of an inch. The fix just feels solid.
I am not sure about export of either of them though
Get it done by the man himself. Are you saleing after market barrel blanks?
The bolt lift was stiff for me at first and has worked itself out for the most part now. The rifle is not front heavy at all on the 16". Obvously the longer thicker profile of the 6.5 barrel is more so. When you throw on an optic though it balances out well on the 6.5 Bartlein barrels. The 16 inch guns, I would say they are anything but nose heavy. The gun is very light out of the box. I didn't weight it to verify before I started putting on the optic an mount, and different brake, bi-pod, etc. But it is very light.
Dave do you have access to the barrel extensions?
jwknutson17 way to put your money where your mouth is. Tell you what. If you don’t love that 16 inch CM I’ll buy it off you after you’ve tried it.
Man. The Fix In 16 CM. Makes me salivate. Well all Fix rifles do that but still
Man. The Fix In 16 CM. Makes me salivate. Well all Fix rifles do that but still
Its going to be 17 inches. But ill take you up on that offer. Already in the box and label printed to send to Dave. Only one way to find out is try it for yourself. Well see what it will do.
I will let you know. Will be noticable when assembled that's for sure. 5 inches off is pretty good chunk.
I wouldn’t touch the Christiansen. A pal had one of their rifles years ago and customer service was terrible. The barrel manufacturing process doesn’t appear consistent.
I am having a Fix with factory 20” 6.5 creedmoor barrel along with a spare 16” .308 and 24” 6.5 creedmoor proof research barrel sent to England by Whitebirch Armoury. They work closely with Q being just down the road. It’s veteran owned and the owner David Guard is outstanding.
I have also been assured that my rifle will not have heavy bolt lift. This was a concern due to it being one of the very early rifles I managed to pick up. I have been waiting for the Proof barrel to add to the export paperwork.
My plan is to sell every other centre fire rifle I own and just know the Fix inside and out.
No bolt lift issues for me at all, with either caliber. My 20" 6.5C, with a 7" TBAC on the end, balances perfectly with a NF 4-16 ATACR on it. A bipod makes it nose heavy.
The 16" 308 with the can and bipod balances perfectly.
The guns really do weigh what they say. My 16" 308 gun was a hair over 6#, and my 20" 6.5C is a hair over 7#. Those are bare weights, of course.
Unfortunately, my 20" Bartlein 6.5C barrel just doesn't want to shoot the Federal 130's very well. A hair under MOA is all I'm seeing. I'm waiting on some other 6.5C loads to arrive for testing, but all I really have is the 130's right now. I also have 1 box of Hornady, so maybe I'll test that.
My 6.5C Blaser R8 shoots the 130's into a half MOA.
A 16" Tooley 6.5C for the Fix is awfully tempting, though the 20 really works very well.
@DAVETOOLEY, can you make a 16" 6.5 barrel for the Fix that has the same profile as the 16" 308?
The 16" 308 with the can and bipod balances perfectly.
The guns really do weigh what they say. My 16" 308 gun was a hair over 6#, and my 20" 6.5C is a hair over 7#. Those are bare weights, of course.
Unfortunately, my 20" Bartlein 6.5C barrel just doesn't want to shoot the Federal 130's very well. A hair under MOA is all I'm seeing. I'm waiting on some other 6.5C loads to arrive for testing, but all I really have is the 130's right now. I also have 1 box of Hornady, so maybe I'll test that.
My 6.5C Blaser R8 shoots the 130's into a half MOA.
A 16" Tooley 6.5C for the Fix is awfully tempting, though the 20 really works very well.
@DAVETOOLEY, can you make a 16" 6.5 barrel for the Fix that has the same profile as the 16" 308?
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