Fixed it for you, leaving out the less temp insensitive powders
- Thread starter jaybigboy34
- Start date
Fixed it for you, leaving out the less temp insensitive powders
The simple answer is get a quality action and have one of each spun up for a switch barrel set up.
If you are truly a skilled enough marksman and accomplished reloader to discern the differences between the two then you will have your answer without all of the bias or uninformed speculation.
I personally held out on buying or building anything in 6.5mm until Lapua came out with Creedmoor brass, but now there are numerous high quality brass choices (Lapua, Norma, Nosler, Petterson, Alpha) as well as a multitude of high quality match and hunting ammo at reasonable prices that you can actually find on the shelves in most places.
And then you have the 6.5x47
1) Very accurate and forgiving cartridge but so is the Creedmoor
2) Only one source of brass or ammo
3) I have never personally seen any 6.5x47 ammo on any shelf.
4) Factory rifles non existent
To me support for a whatever round I am using is more important than seeing a .01" difference in accuracy if it wasn't so I would have a dedicated benchrest rifle in 6mm BR or PPC and never be shooting past 300 yards and only group shooting. THAT WOULD GET OLD REALLY FAST.
If you are truly a skilled enough marksman and accomplished reloader to discern the differences between the two then you will have your answer without all of the bias or uninformed speculation.
I personally held out on buying or building anything in 6.5mm until Lapua came out with Creedmoor brass, but now there are numerous high quality brass choices (Lapua, Norma, Nosler, Petterson, Alpha) as well as a multitude of high quality match and hunting ammo at reasonable prices that you can actually find on the shelves in most places.
And then you have the 6.5x47
1) Very accurate and forgiving cartridge but so is the Creedmoor
2) Only one source of brass or ammo
3) I have never personally seen any 6.5x47 ammo on any shelf.
4) Factory rifles non existent
To me support for a whatever round I am using is more important than seeing a .01" difference in accuracy if it wasn't so I would have a dedicated benchrest rifle in 6mm BR or PPC and never be shooting past 300 yards and only group shooting. THAT WOULD GET OLD REALLY FAST.
If you really want a serious answer to your question about inherent accuracy, I would head over to the benchrest forums. Most guys here don't shoot in the highly controlled environments required to make that sort of assessment. All of this other discussion about which cartridge is best isn't germane to the OP's question.
Facts:
-Both are super accurate
-Creed is cheaper due to Hornady's factory ammo
-Creed has more capacity, and a little more velocity
-My personal best ever groups were with an x47
Facts:
-Both are super accurate
-Creed is cheaper due to Hornady's factory ammo
-Creed has more capacity, and a little more velocity
-My personal best ever groups were with an x47
How could you not understand how the Positional, AKA PRS topic came from?????
You are one that brought it up as part of your case capacity argument in post #20.
Some of use are just pointing out that your example is wrong, it is about recoil.
Because the damn OP asked about inherent cartridge accuracy and benchrest shooting. He didn't ask what cartridge he should buy to shoot PRS.
I'm right and you are all wrong....this is very important.
So then why even have X or Y? just have X.... I hestitate to assign the 6.5 to X/Y as to avoid butthurt 
Dude this is more than weird. The PRS argument was not on play.
You we the very first to bring it up.. then act like you have no idea and shit on me for answering you.
Diver, that was you that said this, right??
Yes, in post #22 in regards to you using PRS as an example in post #20 below.
Again, your post is the very first in this thread, to bring up PRS. I was simply answering your question.
It is weird as shit you don’t seem to understand that.
That's because it was brought up in the context of case design, efficiency, and ease of tuning. In direct reference to the OPs question about inherent/bench rest accuracy. Then you shit on my opinion and started using PRS as your be all end all argument to the OPs question.
You ask a question. I answer that question. My response to your question was to you, not the OP.
Then you get pissy about the use of the closing question of your post when people answer it.
Don’t try to spin this on me. I simply answered you.
If you want to use match results to determine potential accuracy of a cartridge (a fool’s errand, in my opinion) you need to look at much more than the cartridge of the match winner. How many different cartridges were used in the match? If you don’t have a representative sampling of the cartridges of interest, you don’t have a valid comparison. Were the conditions consistent over the course of the match? If the conditions are changing over the course of the match, giving early/later shooters dis/advantages, you don’t have a valid comparison. How does shooter skill play into the results? If shooter skill plays significantly (that means “measurably”) into the results, you don’t have a valid comparison.
Shooters ARE monkeys. This game (whether benchrest, f-class, NRA highpower, or PRS) is full of monkey see monkey do. Shooters are looking at the top scores to see what the top shooters are shooting. Then they are doing what is popular. Everyone wants to feel they are the best- “It’s not my shooting, it’s the rifle holding me back. If only I were shooting a ___, I’d pick up a win.” You can see this in the “what are the top 50 prs shooters shooting” blogs. Whatever was winning in year x is the new hotness in year x+1.
Which cartridge is more accurate, all else being equal? There is not enough data where all else IS equal to make a judgement. Match results are anecdotal. Shooter preferences are opinions. What is being run at a match is as much “follow the leader” as it is informed decision.
Here is some food for thought. If you are the only person on the line shooting a moa based scope, you may be doing yourself a disservice if everyone is sharing dope (intentionally or not) in milrad. At the same time, if everyone is shooting 6 dasher and you are shooting 6.5 creedmoor, you might be doing yourself a disservice as you cannot take as much advantage of any information you glean from your shooting partners/competition.
At the end of the day, regardless of your discipline of choice, external conditions and shooter skill will play a larger part in match scores than will a 1/10 of moa difference in mechanical precision.
What is the right choice for a new rifle? If you are a seasoned hand loader, choose what sounds good to you. Your hand loads will shoot better than factory ammo anyway. If you are relying of factory ammo, choose the 6.5 creedmoor. With the availability of match quality 6.5 creedmoor ammunition, it’s really not a choice at this point.
OP, Camp and I derailed this topic somewhat and it seems clear we aren't understanding each other.
Here is my experience with the cartridges in question, take it for what you will:
I had a 47 and it seemed like others have said, easy to achieve low SD/ES almost like my 6. Both have the fat case and small primer pockets. In my 7mag & 300mag using LR primers (might be bad in places like Wyoming in the winter) I also achieved amazing low SD/ES when compared to using magnum primers. So through antidotal experiences, I absolutely believe, full cases with a small primer to powder ratios, are easier to control SD.
I re-chambered my 47 in a Creed when I could not get brass. Yes, my SD/ES was on average is slightly higher in the Creed with LARGE primers than the 47. But I recently loaded Lapua brass with the small primers in the Creed and get similarly low SD/ED as I had on my 47.
To recap my take:
All that said, I am staying with the Creed because I can get 47 SDs with small primers creed brass and recently started shooting a lot of factory even, though I hand load. At the end of the day, I need to worry more about wind kicking my ass and shooting more. Reloading less helps.
PS:
I admit, I have way more keyboard time, too much, over the last couple of weeks..I have my main two actions at Spartan rebarreling, hope he does a good job, just sold a 6.5 on here, my main scope at the MFG (after dropping it scope bell first onto a hard surface climbing a fence, one of the first things I did at the Hide cup), the 6mm is in Georgia (I am on the west coast), a 6.5 is in jail and I need to send two rifles to my son at the University of Wyoming. So I am short action poor until stuff starts coming back, but hoping to make at least 1 match in September. So while I have other stuff to shoot it, isn't what I normally shoot, hence to much Hide..
Here is my experience with the cartridges in question, take it for what you will:
I had a 47 and it seemed like others have said, easy to achieve low SD/ES almost like my 6. Both have the fat case and small primer pockets. In my 7mag & 300mag using LR primers (might be bad in places like Wyoming in the winter) I also achieved amazing low SD/ES when compared to using magnum primers. So through antidotal experiences, I absolutely believe, full cases with a small primer to powder ratios, are easier to control SD.
I re-chambered my 47 in a Creed when I could not get brass. Yes, my SD/ES was on average is slightly higher in the Creed with LARGE primers than the 47. But I recently loaded Lapua brass with the small primers in the Creed and get similarly low SD/ED as I had on my 47.
To recap my take:
-Small Primer Lapua Creed brass does produce for me, slightly Lower on average SD/ES than my LARGE Primer Creed.
-47 SD/ES & Creed with SMALL primer Lapua brass, is so close, I can not tell on average any difference.
Both small and large primered Creed shoot and I am the one that always misses.
All that said, I am staying with the Creed because I can get 47 SDs with small primers creed brass and recently started shooting a lot of factory even, though I hand load. At the end of the day, I need to worry more about wind kicking my ass and shooting more. Reloading less helps.
PS:
I admit, I have way more keyboard time, too much, over the last couple of weeks..I have my main two actions at Spartan rebarreling, hope he does a good job
, just sold a 6.5 on here, my main scope at the MFG (after dropping it scope bell first onto a hard surface climbing a fence, one of the first things I did at the Hide cup), the 6mm is in Georgia (I am on the west coast), a 6.5 is in jail and I need to send two rifles to my son at the University of Wyoming. So I am short action poor until stuff starts coming back, but hoping to make at least 1 match in September. So while I have other stuff to shoot it, isn't what I normally shoot, hence to much Hide..
That's a good way to sum it up.
SD and ES matters, but not as much as most PRS shooters would like to believe. Let's be real, we are shooting 2-4 MOA targets in PRS. And I'm speaking as someone who shoots PRS matches. Matches have been won with factory ammo with crappy ES/SD.
In whatever tiny quantifiable difference you may see in ES/SD when chasing the most "tuneable" cartridge, you will NOT see that difference when you are shooting a 3+ MOA target off of a wobbly barricade.
I get it, I shoot a 6BRA which has really low ES/SD. I love that it shoots bugholes and the numbers on the Chrono are good enough to post on the FB group "practical precision shooters" (especially if I only shoot 3 shots over it like most people on there). I love that cartridge, and how easy it is to dial in - it's fast becoming my favorite cartridge. But, my 6.5 creedmoor with slightly higher ES/SD will show the same results on that 3+ MOA target off that wobbly barricade.
My 6.5 creedmoor load with Lapua brass has an SD of 4-5, with an ES less than 12 fps. More than good enough for pretty much any rifle sport.
*Disclaimer: I will never post a picture of my chrono readout on any FB group. Fuck that petty ass vain bullshit.
I recently obtained a rifle in 6.5 x 47 and after spending $250 to get 100 rounds of factory ammo, lets just say the 6.5 Creedmoor makes a LOT of sense from the standpoint of the amount of trigger time you get for your $$$.
No argument there. Brass manufacturers and factory ammo are the big down side of the 47.
But if you reload its the same. Same powder, bullets, and brass costs the same. The brass is "bullet proof" Thats why I am asking the differences. Because reloading costs the same amount The brass ends up being 2 cents a rounds after the 50 firings. So if everything costs the same... cartridge wise why pick one over the other???
I think we should debate 308 vs .... JK.
For conversations sake, I'd like to point out that not all precision rifle matches are positional and obstacle oriented. Take the unfortunately and recently defunct Sporting Rifle Match in Raton NM. A field course match on steel shot mostly off the bipod. Steel was diamonds and circles for the most part. I've mentioned this before here on the Hide and will again, I watched a SH member and his friend, both shooting 6mm Dashers, aim at and hit the bolt holding the steel repeatedly during practice at 500Y. One of those guys won the match that weekend. The most memorable thing he said to me that stood out above all else that he spoke of was (something to the affect of)... "I've never had so many hits on the edge of the diamonds or centered on the edge of the circle's as this 6mm Dasher has done". Basically he was saying he picked up enough extra hits for this reason alone to win matches or at least increase his score standing compared to the other cartridges he had used in the past.
So sometimes, very low ES, a rifle, and ammo, capable of shooting consistent extremely small groups at distance can help win certain matches.
Let's look at it from the other way. One things for damn sure, I'm not ever taking a 6.5 Creed to a BR match if I try that type of match again!
For conversations sake, I'd like to point out that not all precision rifle matches are positional and obstacle oriented. Take the unfortunately and recently defunct Sporting Rifle Match in Raton NM. A field course match on steel shot mostly off the bipod. Steel was diamonds and circles for the most part. I've mentioned this before here on the Hide and will again, I watched a SH member and his friend, both shooting 6mm Dashers, aim at and hit the bolt holding the steel repeatedly during practice at 500Y. One of those guys won the match that weekend. The most memorable thing he said to me that stood out above all else that he spoke of was (something to the affect of)... "I've never had so many hits on the edge of the diamonds or centered on the edge of the circle's as this 6mm Dasher has done". Basically he was saying he picked up enough extra hits for this reason alone to win matches or at least increase his score standing compared to the other cartridges he had used in the past.
So sometimes, very low ES, a rifle, and ammo, capable of shooting consistent extremely small groups at distance can help win certain matches.
Let's look at it from the other way. One things for damn sure, I'm not ever taking a 6.5 Creed to a BR match if I try that type of match again!
I was going to sell the barrel or rechamber the barrel to 6.5CM but decided what the hell! I figured by the time I found brass and time to reload I might as well just buy factory ammo for the first 100 brass. I won't be shooting factory ammo all the time, thats for sure...
You've arrived at the point that you've received all the good bad and ugly of both options. Now you just need to pick what matters most to you and roll with it. Then come on here and tell us why your choice was the best! Thats what everyone else does.
You know what this thread is lacking?? More Spindrift!
!
!
Not quite the same. Your only option for 6.5x47 is lapua brass at ~1 per piece. I can buy hornady brass in 6.5 Creedmoor for ~$0.50. Losing brass at a match is a reality... I've lost brass within the confines of a 4x8 box blind. Hell, buying factory ammunition at ~$25.00 per box is not much more expensive than loading in virgin hornady brass- especially when factoring in time. Reloading to save money is another fools' errand.
If you are happy to reload, or if you are one of those truly masochistic types that enjoys reloading, I don't think you will find a downside with the 6.5x47. But, if you don't, or if you are like me and consider hand loading a necessary evil, the 6.5 Creedmoor has a lot going for it.
Dashers work well because they are fast (shoot flat/elevation tolerant) and cheat the wind over a slower 6.5.
Sense you brought Rotan up, we have a club match that is almost exactly like Raton, maybe even windier.
Long story short, it morphed into two matches in one. You can choose to shoot it off barricades or all prone.
I just posted something about the match here: http://www.snipershide.com/shooting...or-looking-for-feedback.6899628/#post-7201341
Basically, the MD is looking for a way to modify the matches making it more attractive to new match shooters and looking for feedback.
Drop over there an take a quick 10 question survey. No emails are collected or asked for. Just looking for the hide’s feedback.
Last edited:
Noted. I reload because once you get a 100-150fps between production numbers you get gun shy. If I’m buying brass I’m buying Lapua which is 1$ and lasts so long it’s like a 2-4 cent case. So .04 case, 0.05 primer, .40 bullet, .25 powder. Not to mention I know that every case is getting the same powder. I’m getting the same costs into a 6.5 or 6.5x47 round and I haven’t had anyone explain the differences
For me the costs per bullet are the same. So what are some other reasons to get one over the other
For me the costs per bullet are the same. So what are some other reasons to get one over the other[/QUOTE said:
You are kidding me right? So when people mention accuracy you all jumped and said no. When someone said SD and ES you all said BS use a 6.5 with small primers. So all the x47 bashers are basically saying the x47 is a Lapua only brass 6.5 creed.
Per your own quote you are wanting the 6.5x47 to be more accurate and justify it. The kicker is that now you can get Lapua brass with small rifle primers in 6.5 CM, the CM is more prolific in factory ammo, more prolific in other brands of brass, has the edge in case capacity, and is overwhelmingly more supported by pre chambered barrels, reloading dies, etc.
The x47 may very well have better accuracy and lower ES/ED in your rifle. You will have to reload to higher pressures to match the velocity of the 6.5CM because you have less case capacity-reducing the life of your brass. In the end does it matter? If you love the x47, awesome there are many shooters who love it as well.
Diver addressed this earlier:
And Lowlight sums it up nicely:
The battle for public opinion on which cartridge will go the distance has already been won and the 6.5CM won the title. I assume the x47 will be around in the bench rest world and other niche markets. Enjoy your x47, I'm sure its a great cartridge, its just not the popular one.
Ahh, a S/H battle and I have missed the best bits.
So the inherent question we are debating is not "inherent accuracy", the two cases are more or less the same thing. Produce the same results and can be tuned to meet the requirements of the shooter's preferred discipline.
The root of the debate is the classic US "not invented here" argument, the same mindset that championed 243mm and 30 cal over 6.5mm and 7mm (see what I did there?) for so many decades that it is only now that you are catching up with the rest of the world's experience.
So, what is the difference in accuracy potential between the 47 Lap and the CM? Not very much and it boils down to the skill and experience of the shooter.
So, which one will I choose for my next barrel? I will go the CM because market forces are pushing cheaper brass which will only get cheaper and more accessible when the CM is properly adopted by the US military (the 223 over the 222 experience).
Certain loud commentators will huff and puff as much as they like in cyberspace but until I burn out these remaining barrels, it will be the 6.5 x 47L with a March scope for every situation.
So the inherent question we are debating is not "inherent accuracy", the two cases are more or less the same thing. Produce the same results and can be tuned to meet the requirements of the shooter's preferred discipline.
The root of the debate is the classic US "not invented here" argument, the same mindset that championed 243mm and 30 cal over 6.5mm and 7mm (see what I did there?) for so many decades that it is only now that you are catching up with the rest of the world's experience.
So, what is the difference in accuracy potential between the 47 Lap and the CM? Not very much and it boils down to the skill and experience of the shooter.
So, which one will I choose for my next barrel? I will go the CM because market forces are pushing cheaper brass which will only get cheaper and more accessible when the CM is properly adopted by the US military (the 223 over the 222 experience).
Certain loud commentators will huff and puff as much as they like in cyberspace but until I burn out these remaining barrels, it will be the 6.5 x 47L with a March scope for every situation.
I give up you are on a different planet. You keep bringing up costs. You said the 6.5 could be as accurate then say buy the 7.5. Can you even see your own contradictions??? I don’t care frank says it’s cheaper the way I’ll load it’s the same.
So I’m building a rifle and all the stuff I’ve read has not helped me pick between the two. You all seem to begrudgingly admit the 47is more accurate then one post later say the 6.5 could be as good
So which is it. I’m Trying to buy once cry once and clearly this thread is not the place to ask that. No one is doing anything but give opinions based on something irrelevant to the caliber but based on their desire to reload or not.....or if there is more support in the factory ammo. Rifles aren’t like tennis balls. You keep rifles for years. So I wanted 6.5 something. I didn’t know and I thought you guys could just give facts. Ie
The 6.5x47 is more accurate but you better reload. If that’s not your thing get a 6.5cm accept the accuracy is not gonna hurt you at the moa you will shoot and use factory ammo
That’s a response and that’s what I had gathered prior to this thread. You guys just confused the &$&”@)( out of people for no reason. Or maybe it’s because you regret the caliber you have. I don’t know but I really hope this isn’t the norm here
So I’m building a rifle and all the stuff I’ve read has not helped me pick between the two. You all seem to begrudgingly admit the 47is more accurate then one post later say the 6.5 could be as good
So which is it. I’m Trying to buy once cry once and clearly this thread is not the place to ask that. No one is doing anything but give opinions based on something irrelevant to the caliber but based on their desire to reload or not.....or if there is more support in the factory ammo. Rifles aren’t like tennis balls. You keep rifles for years. So I wanted 6.5 something. I didn’t know and I thought you guys could just give facts. Ie
The 6.5x47 is more accurate but you better reload. If that’s not your thing get a 6.5cm accept the accuracy is not gonna hurt you at the moa you will shoot and use factory ammo
That’s a response and that’s what I had gathered prior to this thread. You guys just confused the &$&”@)( out of people for no reason. Or maybe it’s because you regret the caliber you have. I don’t know but I really hope this isn’t the norm here
I love reloading and use those or PMags
All shit stirring aside, you aren't gonna go wrong with either one in your case. Pick one. I chose the x47. It's a shorter case and leaves more room in the mag for seating bullets. I'm very happy with it's performance, and don't regret my choice. Next barrel, who knows?? Good luck.
Thanks man. I’ve taken reloading dies out of my cart 5x today. I didn’t think this was gonna be a reticle debacle the OP had a great? And I was hoping people could answer. I’m guessing they don’t know so they rant about things unrelated
This hobby is dogmatic as hell. Do your research, and do what makes YOU happy.
True but I think anyone is going to second guess when most are biased against one. It’s funny because the argument wasn’t about the function it was based in personal likes and dislikes of things surrounding the issue but not the issue.
Example hating the Yankees is one thing saying the AL is stupid because of the Yankees is different
I agree whole heartedly with the last part of your post.
Not sure why you want to stir the pot with us American loving patriots on this site! We do love us some foreign items so maybe its just related to cartridges. Some examples of love for foreign products are Lapua, Norma, AI, Sako, Tikka, S&B, Steiner, and even your March. Don't be so harsh, we hate everybody the same!
My opinion would be that the 6.5x47 is the more "inherently accurate" cartridge of the two. Not that it guarantees you will be more accurate, or that it is always more accurate. Just that on average it is a bit easier to load develop for and that at the bleeding edge of BR accuracy it will likely shoot a tiny bit smaller on average.
Yes, there are some cases that are more inherently accurate than others. Not due to "higher pressure", but probably rather due to a multitude of small things all working together. It's not always the biggest case that is the most accurate case and I'm not sure I subscribe to the chicken/egg argument that shooters follow the winners so the popular cartridges are the best cartridges. Example would be Dasher/6BRA.... solid decade of the best BR shooters chasing world records with the Dasher. 6BRA starts gaining traction and the amount of new world record groups rapidly increases.... same group of shooters.
But this is all minutiae ... so go make a decision based on the practical considerations rather than the theoretical differences.
Yes, there are some cases that are more inherently accurate than others. Not due to "higher pressure", but probably rather due to a multitude of small things all working together. It's not always the biggest case that is the most accurate case and I'm not sure I subscribe to the chicken/egg argument that shooters follow the winners so the popular cartridges are the best cartridges. Example would be Dasher/6BRA.... solid decade of the best BR shooters chasing world records with the Dasher. 6BRA starts gaining traction and the amount of new world record groups rapidly increases.... same group of shooters.
But this is all minutiae ... so go make a decision based on the practical considerations rather than the theoretical differences.
Thank you so much for the response. Little more about me. I do like reloading and I will buy Lapua brass and probably Berger 140s.
I’d take a 6.5x47 over a 6.5cm...and did...I’ve never owned a 6.5cm and never will...the 6.5cm is a fantastic cartridge and I have several buddies that shoot them it’s just not for me.
if your torn between the two buy 2 barrels chamber one in 6.5cm and one in 6.5x47...shoot a couple hundred through each pick the one you like best and have the other barrel set back and chambered in the cartridge you like.
if your torn between the two buy 2 barrels chamber one in 6.5cm and one in 6.5x47...shoot a couple hundred through each pick the one you like best and have the other barrel set back and chambered in the cartridge you like.
No such a thing as an "inherently accurate" cartridge - that is a made up term much like "eye box" to act as short hand for when people don't really know what they are talking about. What we are talking about, in the case of the 222, the 6mm Lapua, the 6mmBR, the 6.5x 47 etc, is a case that provides a sweet node in the physics required to get the bullet out of the barrel. But this sweet node is wide enough that the majority of reloaders can hit it in a reliable fashion.
A 6.5 x 47L in a badly put together rifle, held poorly, will still perform poorly on target.
A 6.5 x 47L in a badly put together rifle, held poorly, will still perform poorly on target.
"Inherently accurate" is perhaps shorthand for two things... easy to find a good shooting node, and superior ultimate accuracy when loaded and tuned to its full potential.
Some people just want to be validated and will argue until they get it, like the butthurt crowd from down under. We actually get off our bellies and find their preferred March lacking, as most do, so they get upset we won’t follow suit. Funny I went to see it light the King of 2 Miles on fire and only saw one, maybe two. In fact I saw more IOR than March, how do you square that circle. Totally mock worthy with their tiny eye box.
The military adopted the 6.5CM and they tested it extensively, the tactical competition world voted obviously. As did the consumer market from rifle to ammo, it wins. Add in the fact the x47 had a significant head start, and boom.
If you want the 6.5x47 to be competive in this discussion, make it a 6x47 and then you have something to talk about.
PS I have the x47 and my team in AK shoots it too, the OD AX is a x47. I still think the CM wins.
The military adopted the 6.5CM and they tested it extensively, the tactical competition world voted obviously. As did the consumer market from rifle to ammo, it wins. Add in the fact the x47 had a significant head start, and boom.
If you want the 6.5x47 to be competive in this discussion, make it a 6x47 and then you have something to talk about.
PS I have the x47 and my team in AK shoots it too, the OD AX is a x47. I still think the CM wins.
Like dwell time in a barrel, the CM will kill the opposition due to volume of production. We saw it with 308 (nowhere near as good as the UK round on offer) and 223 (see the never ending debate on that one), and now the CM will suffocate competition due to a military contract and volume of purchases. It is not inherently better, it is just better marketed.
Similar threads
